Limerick improvement projects

Silentcorner

junk_sales_man wrote: »

no one will live near the castle while a notorious council estate is a stones throw away

the problem with limerick city is its penned in from all sides by sink estates

I'd prefer what we have here to a Northside/Southside divide....

I'm not sure what a sink estate it, I can guess, but blaming the people in these estates is not the answer....people in these estates are subjected to the consequences of failed social policies implemented by central government...while the rest of Ireland watches on sometimes with the enthusiasm of a neighbourhood curtain twitcher!

marno21

junk_sales_man wrote: »

yawn

its never an individuals fault , its society fault , yada yada yada , change the record please !

limerick city is severely held back by such a disproportionate level of council estates being in close proximity to town , this hurts investment and deters professionals from wanting to live in town

The lack of city centre accommodation is another stumbling block

Silentcorner

junk_sales_man wrote: »

yawn

its never an individuals fault , its society fault , yada yada yada , change the record please !

limerick city is severely held back by such a disproportionate level of council estates being in close proximity to town , this hurts investment and deters professionals from wanting to live in town

Well actually it is an individuals fault...if we all ram our heads into the sand and pretend that everything we do is hunky dory in our comfortable housing estates then we will continue a cycle of poor planning, wealth divides, failed social welfare policies, lenient judicial processes and all the ingredients that are required to create social and anti social problems and bundle the resulting social issues into small concentrated estates...

But the upside of that of course is, we get to look down our noses at people from these estates and mock their problems...just like we have been doing since the foundation of this state...

Arrival

junk_sales_man wrote: »

no one will live near the castle while a notorious council estate is a stones throw away

the problem with limerick city is its penned in from all sides by sink estates

I'm not saying anything about living near the castle, I just mentioned it as a distinctive, desirable tourist destination. But you are right about the undesirable areas nearby.

zulutango

Arrival wrote: »

The Opera centre should contain a lot of residential units as well as the office space as again it is very ideally located in the centre for people working in the city centre - I could walk to work in less than five minutes from there and so could many of my friends and this would remove multiple cars commuting into the centre each day, reducing traffic because currently we all commute which we hate. There are probably thousands of people -- young people at least -- that would happily live in the centre but don't currently do so due to lack of a liveable standard of apartments for a fair rental price. It's highly likely that many of these are instead driving their own car in and out of the centre each day or using the bus which means we have unnecessary traffic that could be avoided if we just had more accommodation available.

Couldn't argue with you too much there. If we expect thousands more people to be working in the city centre, then it would be braindead not to, somehow, provide decent residential accommodation in the city centre for these people also. It doesn't necessarily follow that the Opera site should be where these residential units are built.

Arrival wrote: »

If the buildings in the Opera centre aren't high rise then it's a waste of extremely valuable land area within the city centre. Those buildings will be there for 50+ years and so we really need to be thinking big for far down the line and how we can develop Limerick's centre. We can make the same stupid mistakes Dublin and Cork have, building low and small buildings in order to preserve the skyline like simpletons which will ultimately result in detrimental sprawl and an underpopulated centre with no atmosphere and life, or we can go all out in maximising the room we have available in the centre for a growing population by building up as high as we possibly can because housing human beings is a lot more important than a clear skyline that very few people even bother to try and observe in city centres. Want a nice view of a clear skyline and horizon? Head twenty minutes out the road in basically any direction and you'll get it, there's plenty of lovely areas in Limerick county to enjoy things like that, but a city isn't one of them.

High density is very important, but high rise isn't the most appropriate way to achieve it. The taller your building the costs increase drastically. You also get serious issues relating to shading from high rise, and there are social issues linked to high rise also. It's generally considered that mid-rise, 6 - 8 stories, is the optimal building height for most situations, when all the factors are considered. We also should be careful in Limerick about impacting on our Georgian heritage also. This is massively under-valued at the moment, but in time it could be the thing that draws people to the city in big numbers. We can go with mid-rise residential development in many parts of the city and this will be sufficient to facilitate a large city centre population, which is what we need. There's no need, not does it make sense, to be building skyscrapers.

Arrival wrote: »

Limerick should be developed into the most touristic, attractive city in the country. We're currently too small minded, too lacking in imagination and innovation.

Agree with the above. Limerick could be the most attractive and appealing city in the country, both to live in and to visit, and it wouldn't take too many changes. The people who can make that happen don't share that view unfortunately.

kiss_my_face

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/304184/breaking-massive-new-100m-plan-to-transform-limerick-docks.html

zulutango

kiss_my_face wrote: »

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/304184/breaking-massive-new-100m-plan-to-transform-limerick-docks.html

Will be interesting to see the details of this. The Docks could be a great residential area as well as an industrial one. With the Council's plans for Mungret, the link to the motorway, etc, you could see some a very positive urban development along here that would tie in with Limerick's ambitions to double its Metropolitan population. Get the density right and you could be looking at light rail options and cycling super highways. One issue is that it is very flood prone and this is only going to get worse as sea levels rise. They'll have to account for that by building very expensive flood defences. I seem to recall there was a plan from about 15 years ago. Maybe they've taken it down from the shelf and dusted it off. I wonder what consultation has gone on with the Council to date also.

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

Will be interesting to see the details of this. The Docks could be a great residential area as well as an industrial one. With the Council's plans for Mungret, the link to the motorway, etc, you could see some a very positive urban development along here that would tie in with Limerick's ambitions to double its Metropolitan population. Get the density right and you could be looking at light rail options and cycling super highways. One issue is that it is very flood prone and this is only going to get worse as sea levels rise. They'll have to account for that by building very expensive flood defences. I seem to recall there was a plan from about 15 years ago. Maybe they've taken it down from the shelf and dusted it off. I wonder what consultation has gone on with the Council to date also.

Full press release here. No mention of residential.

kilburn

All commercial

zulutango

It sounds like very early days. Development of the port and development, in general, near the city centre is more than likely a good thing. As ever, the devil will be in the detail. The NPF states the following as one of the targets for Limerick - "Extending the ambition of the Limerick 2030 plan to include extension of the City Centre towards Limerick Docks". It's poorly worded as it's not possible to extend a centre really. But they probably mean extending the city towards the docks, and that can be done in many ways. No doubt, given high level government involvement in this plan and the announcement just a few weeks after the NPF, this is what they meant.

Reputable Rog

zulutango wrote: »

It sounds like very early days. Development of the port and development, in general, near the city centre is more than likely a good thing. As ever, the devil will be in the detail. The NPF states the following as one of the targets for Limerick - "Extending the ambition of the Limerick 2030 plan to include extension of the City Centre towards Limerick Docks". It's poorly worded as it's not possible to extend a centre really. But they probably mean extending the city towards the docks, and that can be done in many ways. No doubt, given high level government involvement in this plan and the announcement just a few weeks after the NPF, this is what they meant.

Why is not possible to extend the City Centre? I presume they mean extending the retail core/cbd.

zulutango

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Why is not possible to extend the City Centre? I presume they mean extending the retail core/cbd.

By definition you can't extend a centre, you can only move it!

tototoe

So delighted there is a plan for the Ballantyne mill. Beautiful building, totally wasted.

Brennans Row

The eastern end of the port adjoining James Casey Walk has suffered from a number of inappropriate interventions over the years and following a detailed conservation assessment of the buildings, features and area, it is proposed to visually enhance the setting of the cluster of heritage buildings at the eastern end of the port adjoining James Casey Walk through the demolition and removal of insignificant buildings and features.

See 3D concept of the Ted Russell Docks

It seems that the storage of scrap metal will be moved to the western end of the docks which would be the biggest visual enhancer of all for the James Casey Walk area.

Image Fergal Clohessy

Brennans Row

Plans for Limerick to hit new heights (Irish Times)

Frank McDonald

The city’s visitors will have three more towers to look at if planning permission is secured

When the Clarion Hotel rose above Limerick’s Steamboat Quay in 2002, nearly everyone thought that the city had finally “arrived”. With a height of 53m – shorter than Dublin’s Liberty Hall – Murray O’Laoire’s elliptical 17-storey hotel tower became the most photographed architectural statement on the river Shannon after King John’s Castle.

Three years after the Clarion was completed, Limerick aimed for the sky again with BKD’s Riverpoint, a 15-storey office block with blue mirror-glazing that stands like a sentinel on the city side of Shannon Bridge. At 58.5m it is even taller than the hotel and flanked by two blocks of apartments, adding more life to a rapidly rejuvenated riverfront.

Soon visitors to Limerick will have three more towers to photograph, assuming that planning permission is secured for schemes in the pipeline: an interactive visitor centre celebrating the city’s rich rugby heritage, a 15-storey tower on Bishop’s Quay, behind Henry Street, and a third on the so-called Opera Site at Bank Place/Patrick Street.

The Bishop’s Quay tower, designed by Limerick architects Michael Healy and Partners for Kirkland Investments, has already got planning permission despite an appeal by the Irish Georgian Society to An Bord Pleanála. With a flanking seven-storey block of apartments, the €40 million scheme is backed by former Lord of the Dance Michael Flatley.

Its office tower, rising to a height of almost 60m, would have a predominantly glazed façade with a “rhythmic patten of aluminium solar shading panels”, according to project architect Elaine Bowe. “The prominent site is a fantastic location for a tall building representative of its time and responsive to its waterfront and city location.”

The 14-storey tower proposed for Bank Place, near the old Custom House (now occupied by the Hunt Museum), is a notional element of the design brief issued last by Limerick City and County Council for the so-called Opera Site, a largely “brownfield” urban block on the northern edge of the city centre, which is to be renovated mainly for offices.

According to the council’s brief, the site presents an “opportunity for a tall building . . . addressing the Abbey River at Bank Place”, as a new city landmark. Indeed, this was first canvassed by Limerick 2030, an economic and spatial strategy published in 2013, which pledged that there would be a “world-class riverfront” along the Shannon by 2030.

Georgian core
Of the three towers the one with the most serious architectural intent is the International Rugby Experience planned for O’Connell Street in the city’s still forlorn Georgian core of Newtown Pery. It has been designed by Dublin-born Niall McLaughlin, who is among the most talented of contemporary Irish architects, albeit based in London.

With numerous garlands to his credit, including the Royal Institute of British Architects’ Charles Jencks Award for making “a major contribution internationally to both the theory and practice of architecture”, McLaughlin is renowned for turning every commission into a bespoke project that delivers considerably more than his clients might expect.

The planned rugby extravaganza for Limerick is being overseen by an advisory board headed by former Munster, Ireland and Lions captain Paul O’Connell, while bookmaker and racehorse owner JP McManus has pledged €10 million for the project, saying that the sport of rugby “is at the core of Limerick” and would now be contributing to its regeneration.

What’s proposed for the site of three Georgian buildings at 40-42 O’Connell Street is an entirely new edifice (bar the retention of Fines Jewellers shop at the corner of Cecil Street), with a setback tower rising several floors above its existing parapet line. And it’s this element of the scheme which has raised the hackles of conservationists, including An Taisce.

Roman in its inspiration and scale, with the tallest arches right on top, it speaks of the Caracalla Baths, and consists of three elements: a deep proscenium-like portico leading into a double-height entrance foyer, three storeys of exhibition space improbably raised over the immovable jewellers, and a 32-metre tower with panoramic views.

Fantasy design
Images of the scheme provoked outrage on social media. “That’s bonkers! Completely over-scaled,” Daragh Boyce tweeted. “I’m struggling to see the relevance of that weird set-back tower. It’s like an indulgent fantasy design wedged into a real Georgian street.” Historian Dr Paul O’Brien saw it as “another nail in the coffin of Georgian Limerick”.

But McLaughlin defends his design. “I’m not sure why height is [seen as] so un-Georgian,” he said. “Many, if not most, of their public edifices soared unapologetically above the parapet datum of surrounding houses. It marked their civic status and broke the sometimes unrelenting monotony of streetscape imposed by the Georgian terraces.”

Referring to a recent visit to Oxford, he recalled how we had stood outside Worcester College, looking north along Walton Street, and admired the way that the street “frames the view of the fabulous Radcliffe Observatory tower, built by Keane and Wyatt to observe the transit of Venus in 1769. It is one of Oxford’s Georgian masterpieces.”

McLaughlin cites several other examples of “gorgeous Georgian precedents” from Dublin, Edinburgh, Oxford and Philadelphia of public buildings from that era (or later) that were built significantly taller than their neighbours; his Dublin examples include Findlater’s Church on Parnell Square and the Peppercanister in Mount Street Crescent.

Long vista
The difference between these and what is planned for Limerick is that Findlater’s spire was built at the end of a Georgian terrace, while the Peppercanister is symmetrically positioned to close a long vista from the west side of Merrion Square. The proposed Rugby Experience tower is neither on a corner nor would it have any vista-stopping role.

But McLaughlin has a jaundiced view of Newtown Pery, arguing that it was developed as an “exclusive residential enclave far away from the plague-ridden medieval streets of Irishtown” in Limerick. Poor people were “positively discouraged” from going there. “The obsessive control of architectural decorum was matched only by rigid social control.”

In the 19th century, this hierarchy was only “leavened”, he believes, through “the introduction of new public buildings for the people. Most of these, in the spirit of the age, matched the national passion for church building [hence the ‘City of Spires’]. The interruption of consistent urban form was a manifestation of the democratisation of the area.”

He uses this thesis to justify the extra height of the Rugby Experience, saying: “I don’t think it is wrong to put a tall building onto this site if it has a truly public and popular purpose. It is an expression of a local, regional and national passion: the game of rugby. The top of the tower is not a crummy office or plant room. It is a grand public room for the city.”

Totally altered
As for the buildings to be demolished to make way for it all, McLaughlin says these could not be regarded a “high-quality protected stock”, with only “Georgian remnants”, interiors “gutted and totally altered”, and façades “irreversibly rendered” in cement. “Surely the indifferent old can sometimes make way for the new?” he suggests.

“Our building is not in the full flow of intact O’Connell Street, but at the commercial end, across the road from the bulky new AIB building and just over from the eight-storey George Hotel,” he says, in reference to claims that it would be an “alien intrusion” into the Georgian core. “I think it will bring some distinction to an indifferent stretch of the street.”

While welcoming a “cathedral for rugby” in principle, An Taisce expressed fears that it would create an “undesirable precedent” in an officially-designated Architectural Conservation Area (ACA) . It has appealed the case to An Bord Pleanála, arguing that the “considerable bulk and height” of its seven-storey tower would “undermine” the ACA designation.

Apartments
An Taisce has also appealed against Limerick City and County Council’s approval for plans by Kirkland Investments to extend the Savoy Hotel on Henry Street by gobbling up a relatively rare 1790s cornstore alongside; derelict for years, the building was sensitively renovated for apartments in the “Celtic Tiger” era by Limerick-born developer Aidan Brooks.

Only the shell would be retained, with a 10-storey tower shooting up through it – an unwitting evocation of the birth scene in Alien. Yet project architect Elaine Bowe, of Michael Healy and Partners, prefers to define the proposed “vertical roof box”, however improbably, as a contemporary version of the classical entablature – architrave, frieze and cornice.

Apart from the architectural treatment, which it says would “seriously compromise” the old cornstore’s heritage value, An Taisce complains that the scheme would involve sacrificing nine apartments to create 20 extra rooms for the Savoy Hotel; indeed, none of the latest batch of towers would contain a single square metre of residential accommodation.

No doubt there will be further proposals for more towers, especially along the Shannon riverfront, to fill in visual gaps between those already built or planned to achieve an equidistance between the high-rise elements of this new-look Limerick. Yet I can’t help thinking that the city would be better off rejuvenating Newtown Pery as a prime residential area.

Vanquished

There was a cherrypicker in action in the yard behind the former ESB showroom and Bord na cGon headquarters this morning as I was passing. Whether this is a sign that movement is finally imminent on the Bishop's Quay office tower and apartment complex is the question.

Glenomra

there's work going on at Hibernian House at the rear of this site. Would the cherry picker have been on that site.

Vanquished

Glenomra wrote: »

there's work going on at Hibernian House at the rear of this site. Would the cherry picker have been on that site.

Possibly. But Hibernian House has it's own access at the rear. It was in the yard between the ESB building and the Bord na gCon offices when I saw it.

OfTheMarsWongs

Brennans Row wrote: »

Manager of Limerick's Milk Market welcomes €3m plans (Limerick Leader)

Anything that finishes off that eye-sore the better.

Well nearly anything, Carr Street will be mainly a wall of grey cladding overlooking the market.

The unfinished building was on fire last night.

https://twitter.com/limerickfire/status/979111561238376448?s=21

Reputable Rog

OfTheMarsWongs wrote: »

The unfinished building was on fire last night.

https://twitter.com/limerickfire/status/979111561238376448?s=21

Fires seem to follow them around, I remember as a kid going to down to watch a fire in one of their premises opposite the old Gleesons garage.

Treepole

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Fires seem to follow them around, I remember as a kid going to down to watch a fire in one of their premises opposite the old Gleesons garage.

Follow who around? The Fire Brigade?

Reputable Rog

Treepole wrote: »

Follow who around? The Fire Brigade?

The owners.

Glenomra

Limerick city gradually getting more positive reviews, for example, this Saturday's irish Times re film studio and EVA. Also, UL planning to build 2 new student accommodation blocks, one of which can be converted to a 4 star hotel during the Summer holiday season. All very positive. Hopefully, the gardai will deal with the young offenders currently trying to make it their city and disrupt many people's lives.

rebs23

Unfortunately there are very few construction projects in Limerick at the moment. Very dissapointiung but the situation is unlikely to improve over the next 18 months with many plans but little proceeding to construction phase. Only 1 working tower crane in the city. 2 other cranes have been idle now for over 9 months.
It was busier 2 years ago. Not sure what the issue is but certainly there is a significant overhang of commercial property with too many state agencies planning developments that is putting the private sector off investment in the city.
IDA, Shannon Development, Port company, Limerick 2030 crowding out investment that the private sector simply cannot compete. The reality of improvement projects is different to the spin being put out.

Silentcorner

rebs23 wrote: »

Unfortunately there are very few construction projects in Limerick at the moment. Very dissapointiung but the situation is unlikely to improve over the next 18 months with many plans but little proceeding to construction phase. Only 1 working tower crane in the city. 2 other cranes have been idle now for over 9 months.
It was busier 2 years ago. Not sure what the issue is but certainly there is a significant overhang of commercial property with too many state agencies planning developments that is putting the private sector off investment in the city.
IDA, Shannon Development, Port company, Limerick 2030 crowding out investment that the private sector simply cannot compete. The reality of improvement projects is different to the spin being put out.

Jesus Rebs, you know more than we do here in Limerick...

Tell us, what should we do?

Is it because we have no representation at cabinet?
Or is it because of a mess the last two government ministers left?

rebs23

Silentcorner wrote: »

Jesus Rebs, you know more than we do here in Limerick...

Tell us, what should we do?

Is it because we have no representation at cabinet?
Or is it because of a mess the last two government ministers left?

Market is saturated with development proposals from state and semi state bodies which means private developers cannot compete with? Just an opinion but it certainly needs examination as construction activity is very low in Limerick.
In fairness Limerick has very strong political representatives so don’t think it’s political. Maybe the demand is simply not there or it’s not viable in many instances.

Silentcorner

rebs23 wrote: »

Market is saturated with development proposals from state and semi state bodies which means private developers cannot compete with? Just an opinion but it certainly needs examination as construction activity is very low in Limerick.
In fairness Limerick has very strong political representatives so don’t think it’s political. Maybe the demand is simply not there or it’s not viable in many instances.

Construction certainly has slowed down, I wonder was Denis O'Brien onto something when he said that we are building too much office space (across the country)...I think we are seeing that slowdown as there is a rising belief that we are in an office space bubble...

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/irish-commercial-property-is-a-bubble-i-actually-think-were-overbuilding-offices-obrien-36530312.html

I don't think it has anything to do with the state agencies here...those state agencies have delivered thousands of jobs over the last number of years...just few in the city centre...

Brennans Row

Glenomra wrote: »

UL planning to build 2 new student accommodation blocks, one of which can be converted to a 4 star hotel during the Summer holiday season.

Two new blocks? I presume this student accomodation / hotel planning does not include the recently purchased Park Point on the Dublin road?

Brennans Row

Níall McLaughlin gets go-ahead for global centre for rugby (The Architects’ Journal)

Architect’s view

The design approach was to consider this as a special civic building rather than a townhouse and the architectural proposals were developed through research into historic civic buildings set in Georgian streetscapes, referencing the scale of churches and civic halls.

The building is crowned with a public hall at the top. A grand entrance portico addresses the main street, providing shelter and creating a public space below where visitors gather and fans can meet on match days. Both inside and out, structural forces will be expressed through brick and concrete detailing to create a building that reflects some of the forces found in the game of rugby.

The structure and brick expression should provide a tangible link to the building’s function and will be key to the visitor experience.

Mc Love

Fine's must not be happy with that work going on overhead.