Any coaches in the house?

Thanx 4 The Fish

I have recently gotten back into the saddle and taken on a management/coaching role with an junior team. I have gone through the FAI level 1 and 2 coaching badges and really I was disappointed with them, since that I have also attended a number of coaching courses and have recently done an FA level 1 coaching badge.

At no stage though in any of those course did we discuss the long term development of footballers. Never once in any of our courses did we think about how what we are doing with the children now will influence the way they play football in later life.

I got my head together with a coach friend of mine and we took on management of a local team (under 9s) and we decided that we would start to train that team in how to be good footballers rather than a team who could win every game but never learn how to keep the ball. We have had mixed results with the approach in our pre-season. In every game we have been the better team. Our first game we had 70ish percent of the possession but lost as their keeper (who was a monster) could kick the ball from hands into our box and another big lad stuck a few away. But throughout the game all of our boys were confident with the ball and played some nice play arounds. Individually our lads were happy to take their players on regardless of size and the lads regularly switched the ball onto the "safe side" - away from the opposing player and we could see them actively planning their routes with their eyes up.

In the next game it was a lot easier. Both teams wanted to play football which worked to our advantage as our lads were better at it and we won 14-2.

The next game was where our problems started. We could not get a game against a team at our age level so we played a team a year older than us. We still held our own and we lost it by three goals. We played well, made runs across defenders instead of straight at them to open up space in behind and make the defender move and potentially put them off balance. We encourage all of the boys to try and be individually skilful and we never chastise them for trying something that does not come off. The only thing that we ask them to do is not give the ball away for no reason, so a hoofed clearance is something we discourage, even if we concede from it we always want the boys to play out from the back and gain confidence through doing it again and again.

The problem we had was with some of the parents after that game who started gong on about how we would never win if we did not play the long ball. Get rid of it and stop trying to play out from the back, make the boys pass pass pass rather than have them use the ball cleverly. We are trying to develop the boys to be footballers who will be able to potentially play at whatever level that they can achieve but the parents are pressuring us and the boys to just win. I have already told them that nobody will remember a team that won every game at under 9s and under 10s all the way up but people will remember a boy who played with them and got a game at the Villa or with Stockport or anyone really who achieves a berth in a professional team.

So what do you guys think? I would be interested to hear what coaches would do as we are struggling to contain our frustration.

Have you found that long term progression takes a back seat because a manager/parent/football association just wants to get a win?

Knex*

I've no experience really with what you are doing T4TF, but it sounds like you and your friend are doing a great thing.

Keep up the good work and stick with your convictions, but also, ensure the kids enjoy it. From the way you describe it, it sounds like they do.

I know I wish I had that type of set-up and encouragement when I was that young. I started off as a small ten year old played up front on my own where footballs were hoofed over my head and I was told sprint onto them.

Makes me shudder when I think about it.

Best of luck OP!

Roger Sterling

Fair play. Dont be dissuaded by the "win at all costs" mentality of the parents. I do find it shocking you had to do this kinda off your own back and that the courses you did were so lacking.

G.K.

Hoping to get involved with coaching when I go to uni.

Soups123

I've been in the same boat over the past couple of years. I take the same approach as yourself. It was great for a while everyone was delighted with how we where playing and getting results. We then started to struggle owning games with possession but losing by a goal or two because other teams where long balling it or they had one/two quality players who won the games with others on their team not too involved. At first the kids where fine but the parents started to question it, they loved how the kids were playing but not the results, I stuck to my guns explaining I was looking to develop players not win trophies.
But we went 5/6 games without winning and the players began to let there heads drop, missing training and going into games with no confidence.

I just decided to freshen it up by changing all there positions and playing the same way, I found it put a spring back in there step and one or two surprised me with how well they played. That brought us back to winning a few games, not all but a few

It's tough if your not the premier level team because it's harder to get results taking this approach but I tell the kids and parents all the time ignore results, look at how your child is playing and developing and that everything we are doing will show itself when they are playing 11 a side!

CSF

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

I have recently gotten back into the saddle and taken on a management/coaching role with an junior team. I have gone through the FAI level 1 and 2 coaching badges and really I was disappointed with them, since that I have also attended a number of coaching courses and have recently done an FA level 1 coaching badge.

At no stage though in any of those course did we discuss the long term development of footballers. Never once in any of our courses did we think about how what we are doing with the children now will influence the way they play football in later life.

I got my head together with a coach friend of mine and we took on management of a local team (under 9s) and we decided that we would start to train that team in how to be good footballers rather than a team who could win every game but never learn how to keep the ball. We have had mixed results with the approach in our pre-season. In every game we have been the better team. Our first game we had 70ish percent of the possession but lost as their keeper (who was a monster) could kick the ball from hands into our box and another big lad stuck a few away. But throughout the game all of our boys were confident with the ball and played some nice play arounds. Individually our lads were happy to take their players on regardless of size and the lads regularly switched the ball onto the "safe side" - away from the opposing player and we could see them actively planning their routes with their eyes up.

In the next game it was a lot easier. Both teams wanted to play football which worked to our advantage as our lads were better at it and we won 14-2.

The next game was where our problems started. We could not get a game against a team at our age level so we played a team a year older than us. We still held our own and we lost it by three goals. We played well, made runs across defenders instead of straight at them to open up space in behind and make the defender move and potentially put them off balance. We encourage all of the boys to try and be individually skilful and we never chastise them for trying something that does not come off. The only thing that we ask them to do is not give the ball away for no reason, so a hoofed clearance is something we discourage, even if we concede from it we always want the boys to play out from the back and gain confidence through doing it again and again.

The problem we had was with some of the parents after that game who started gong on about how we would never win if we did not play the long ball. Get rid of it and stop trying to play out from the back, make the boys pass pass pass rather than have them use the ball cleverly. We are trying to develop the boys to be footballers who will be able to potentially play at whatever level that they can achieve but the parents are pressuring us and the boys to just win. I have already told them that nobody will remember a team that won every game at under 9s and under 10s all the way up but people will remember a boy who played with them and got a game at the Villa or with Stockport or anyone really who achieves a berth in a professional team.

So what do you guys think? I would be interested to hear what coaches would do as we are struggling to contain our frustration.

Have you found that long term progression takes a back seat because a manager/parent/football association just wants to get a win?

The parents shouldn't be mouthing at all. We have ours sign upto a strict code of conduct relating to how they behave when the kids are at training or on matchday. Keep doing what you're doing, and don't pay attention to what others (anyone whose opinion you didn't go looking for/or would go looking for) try to tell you. You're naturally going to be better at doing what you're comfortable with anyway.

Mr.Crinklewood

Fair play OP, you have the right philosophy. The only trouble you have now is convincing the parents of this.

Perhaps try and tell them, that this way that their child will develop as a better individual player, and hopefully as time goes by the child and the associated team will all gain in strength and quality the short term loss is worth it for the long term gain.

Its like Rolf Harris painted, when Rolf starts, and is indeed midway through his painted, you`d think it was crap...however at the end it all comes together and Rolf has a fine painting.

Used to coach when i was back home, since i moved to Dublin i no longer have an allegiance with a local club.

CSF

Mr.Crinklewood wrote: »

Fair play OP, you have the right philosophy. The only trouble you have now is convincing the parents of this.

Perhaps try and tell them, that this way that their child will develop as a better individual player, and hopefully as time goes by the child and the associated team will all gain in strength and quality the short term loss is worth it for the long term gain.

Its like Rolf Harris painted, when Rolf starts, and is indeed midway through his painted, you`d think it was crap...however at the end it all comes together and Rolf has a fine painting.

Used to coach when i was back home, since i moved to Dublin i no longer have an allegiance with a local club.

Why exactly do the parents need to be appeased though?

Thanx 4 The Fish

None of our boys have positions. We play with two arcs to enable the play around (switch the ball from one side to the other) and in every game the boys play in different positions. We do see that some boys are good at some things and not at other but it does not stop us from encouraging them to try in all of the positions.

We do see though that some are more predisposed to being defenders or some are very strong in the challenge but we are trying to make players who are comfortable in all aspects of the game who can be comfortable with the ball, can find space and attack it when it is available.


Patience, I think that is what parents/teams are lacking. We all want results now and we do not look to the future, like a bad footballer who will only look at the first defender but will not look past them and so pulls off a beautiful Cruyff turn past him and gets milled by the keeper who was standing behind them.

Win at all costs has a lot to answer for.

Chucky the tree

CSF wrote: »

Why exactly do the parents need to be appeased though?

Because without the kids T4TF and his mate won't be coaching anyone.

CSF

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Because without the kids T4TF and his mate won't be coaching anyone.

If the parents aren't happy to be there without questioning your decisions, then they shouldn't be there. There are plenty of parents happy to let the coach do the coaching. Naturally, if they're not happy with what you've done with your kid at the end of the year they'll leave.

Thanx 4 The Fish

CSF wrote: »

Why exactly do the parents need to be appeased though?

Mostly because even if they do not go off on one at a game, they will say whatever they want at home. We have had kids turn up and out of nowhere in a game say something like, you never pass. We as a group do not encourage the boys to pass, if the do it then great but at the moment we are encouraging them to think about how to keep the ball, if a pass is the best way then so be it, but it may be that a clever move, a trick or just having planned a clever route through the traffic can be just as effective a way to keep the ball.

When we asked him why he said that, he said "My dad says so". We have published a syllabus and there is a charter in place but people will gob off anyway or whispers will start and people will be disgruntled.

As a group we need buy in as while everything that we do is built upon the individual, every time we add another individual to the group, we have to get them thinking the same way (and even at U9, trying to reprogram them so they do not just pass when they get it, or hoof from defence) and so every new player who joins, the team suffers somewhat until that player is up to speed, or the boys will not pass it to them as they know that he will lose the ball and he can become ostracised.

Mr.Crinklewood

CSF wrote: »

Why exactly do the parents need to be appeased though?

In my experience some want results, results, results. They do not seem to care how they get these results.

Some do not seem to realize that with the short term results focus, that the long term goals may not be achieved.

At that stage i also believe its more about the kids learning to play, associate with each other and bond together. At this early stage all players good and bad should get some game time.

Soups123

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

CSF wrote: »

Why exactly do the parents need to be appeased though?

Mostly because even if they do not go off on one at a game, they will say whatever they want at home. We have had kids turn up and out of nowhere in a game say something like, you never pass. We as a group do not encourage the boys to pass, if the do it then great but at the moment we are encouraging them to think about how to keep the ball, if a pass is the best way then so be it, but it may be that a clever move, a trick or just having planned a clever route through the traffic can be just as effective a way to keep the ball.

When we asked him why he said that, he said "My dad says so". We have published a syllabus and there is a charter in place but people will gob off anyway or whispers will start and people will be disgruntled.

As a group we need buy in as while everything that we do is built upon the individual, every time we add another individual to the group, we have to get them thinking the same way (and even at U9, trying to reprogram them so they do not just pass when they get it, or hoof from defence) and so every new player who joins, the team suffers somewhat until that player is up to speed, or the boys will not pass it to them as they know that he will lose the ball and he can become ostracised.

You don't encourage them to pass the ball yet the emphasis is on retaining the ball? I wud practice the same idea confidence on the ball being comfortable with it but I'd teach passing as a key element!

So what/how are you teaching them?

CSF

Mr.Crinklewood wrote: »

In my experience some want results, results, results. They do not seem to care how they get these results.

Some do not seem to realize that with the short term results focus, that the long term goals may not be achieved.

At that stage i also believe its more about the kids learning to play, associate with each other and bond together. At this early stage all players good and bad should get some game time.

It really doesn't matter if they want results, results, results. The parents are there to bring the kids to and from training and matches, and encourage them (without giving any instructions). Once the kids are at training or the match, it is just between the coaches and the players, and it is important for the coach to make sure it stays that way to avoid things eventually spiralling out of control.

CSF

Soups123 wrote: »

You don't encourage them to pass the ball yet the emphasis is on retaining the ball? I wud practice the same idea confidence on the ball being comfortable with it but I'd teach passing as a key element!

So what/how are you teaching them?

I was wondering this too.

Mr.Crinklewood

CSF wrote: »

It really doesn't matter if they want results, results, results. The parents are there to bring the kids to and from training and matches, and encourage them (without giving any instructions). Once the kids are at training or the match, it is just between the coaches and the players, and it is important for the coach to make sure it stays that way to avoid things eventually spiralling out of control.

That is kinda my point. Its the parents that try and give instructions, to the players and coaches that get my goat.

CSF

Mr.Crinklewood wrote: »

That is kinda my point. Its the parents that try and give instructions, to the players and coaches that get my goat.

Which is why I'm saying to stamp it out, rather than appease it. Giving the parent an explanation is pretty much letting them think it is acceptable, and they'll do it again.

carlop

This is a little off-topic but just walking by a junior club today and they were out doing their training session. The kids were probably about 12 or so and we're playing a game of 7-a-side, however it was on a pitch with walls and if the ball hit the wall it was not regarded as out of play.

Is this not massively detrimental to their development?

I noticed last time I was playing astro with mates that everytime someone played a long ball that would hit a side or back wall and rebound to the striker people would say 'nice pass' or 'good ball.'

How can an overhit ball that bounces off a wall be considered a 'good pass,' and how can it help children to play on a pitch where the ball can't go out?

CSF

carlop wrote: »

This is a little off-topic but just walking by a junior club today and they were out doing their training session. The kids were probably about 12 or so and we're playing a game of 7-a-side, however it was on a pitch with walls and if the ball hit the wall it was not regarded as out of play.

Is this not massively detrimental to their development?

I noticed last time I was playing astro with mates that everytime someone played a long ball that would hit a side or back wall and rebound to the striker people would say 'nice pass' or 'good ball.'

How can an overhit ball that bounces off a wall be considered a 'good pass,' and how can it help children to play on a pitch where the ball can't go out?

Its not ideal like, but 'massively detrimental to their development' might be overdoing it just a little bit.

_blank_

Should be more coaches like you, and the underage administration should attend games every week, and if they see coaches encouraging "hoof ball" or "win at all costs" tactics, they should throw them out of the leagues.

Coaches should have to be qualified and licenced, and actively have their licences withdrawn if they are teaching the wrong game.

Can you describe these "arcs" a bit more, sound interesting.

Fair play to you for taking the approach you are, but winning 14-2 does absolutely nothing for your team really. Maybe if you go two or three goals ahead in a game, that is the time to try the passing game, get your lads to pass the ball, play keep ball and actively try to not score, but keep the ball. You already know they can create openings and make chances by that stage.

I'm not a qualified coach though, and that is probably bollox.

Soups123

CSF wrote: »

carlop wrote: »

This is a little off-topic but just walking by a junior club today and they were out doing their training session. The kids were probably about 12 or so and we're playing a game of 7-a-side, however it was on a pitch with walls and if the ball hit the wall it was not regarded as out of play.

Is this not massively detrimental to their development?

I noticed last time I was playing astro with mates that everytime someone played a long ball that would hit a side or back wall and rebound to the striker people would say 'nice pass' or 'good ball.'

How can an overhit ball that bounces off a wall be considered a 'good pass,' and how can it help children to play on a pitch where the ball can't go out?

Its not ideal like, but 'massively detrimental to their development' might be overdoing it just a little bit.

It's not ideal but suppose kids could learn to pass and move a quick diagonal one two with the wall running onto the receiving bounce back

Thanx 4 The Fish

Soups123 wrote: »

You don't encourage them to pass the ball yet the emphasis is on retaining the ball? I wud practice the same idea confidence on the ball being comfortable with it but I'd teach passing as a key element!

So what/how are you teaching them?

At the moment we are teaching them to learn how to keep the ball. When I say that we do not encourage them to do it, we encourage them to keep it whatever way they think is best. It may be through passing or through running etc but we do not say, when x situation occurs you must do this. That would defeat the purpose. We want to have clever players who make their own natural decisions and so work on Running with the ball with both feet, Stopping with both feet, Turning with both feet, Quick touches on the ball, Eyes up, Receiving with both feet, First touch movement, Receiving side on and Passing.

CSF

Des wrote: »

Should be more coaches like you, and the underage administration should attend games every week, and if they see coaches encouraging "hoof ball" or "win at all costs" tactics, they should throw them out of the leagues.

Coaches should have to be qualified and licenced, and actively have their licences withdrawn if they are teaching the wrong game.

Can you describe these "arcs" a bit more, sound interesting.

Fair play to you for taking the approach you are, but winning 14-2 does absolutely nothing for your team really. Maybe if you go two or three goals ahead in a game, that is the time to try the passing game, get your lads to pass the ball, play keep ball and actively try to not score, but keep the ball. You already know they can create openings and make chances by that stage.

I'm not a qualified coach though, and that is probably bollox.

The main problem there is that there is a struggle for enough coaches per child already. Getting rid of the ****e ones unfortunately ends up with more kids not getting to play at all, which is worse. Until more people step upto the plate, you're stuck, with lots of kids receiving bad coaching, mostly parents with good intentions but the wrong mindset.

fred funk }{

You should call a meeting with the parents and explain what your plan is and how you are trying to developed the kids.

Parents need teaching too.

_blank_

How much are courses?

fred funk }{

Sorry, forgot to add. Sounds like you're doing a great job.

CSF

Des wrote: »

How much are courses?

120 for Kickstart 1 and 2 combined. A good club will pay it for you.

_blank_

CSF wrote: »

120 for Kickstart 1 and 2 combined. A good club will pay it for you.

So what, I jut rock up to some club and tell them I'd like to coach underage, and they'll pay for me? Really?

CSF

Des wrote: »

So what, I jut rock up to some club and tell them I'd like to coach underage, and they'll pay for me? Really?

Well not exactly, these clubs need people to look after their team. If you're looking after one of their teams, its in their interest to get you qualified (so you're not ****e), and will therefore be happy to work towards getting you upto the standard required. I don't know if it is the same at all clubs but ours sent us all together as a club (obviously only the ones who hadn't already done said courses) close enough to the start of my first season, and then again later in the year for Kickstart 2.

event

I've an interest in doing this myself, by the end of the year i should have done kick start 1 & 2 and the small sided workshop, I've none done yet though

Thanx 4 The Fish

Des wrote: »

Can you describe these "arcs" a bit more, sound interesting.

at under 9s we play 7 a side so we play with two arcs. A back arc and a front arc. When we have the balls the arcs close up and when we have it they spread out.

Looks something like this on the pitch when we have the ball

---

0

---

-0

---

0-

---

0

---

-0

---

0-

And more like this when they have the ball

---

0

---

---0---0---

---

0

---

---0---0---

Closing up the space and making the opposition have to go around us and away from the goal if they want to create an opportunity.

When we get it, we are able to switch the play quickly by the player who is free in the middle or other side of the arc calling a play around. If the player on the ball wants to release it then the can pass it through the middle player in the arc and switch sides of the pitch really quickly, this has been something that we have seen some real success with as the opposition generally at this age all go to the ball and while our setup is not rigid and anyone can play in any position in the arc it does mean that often we leave half of the opposition standing around a boy who no longer has the ball.

Des wrote: »

Fair play to you for taking the approach you are, but winning 14-2 does absolutely nothing for your team really. Maybe if you go two or three goals ahead in a game, that is the time to try the passing game, get your lads to pass the ball, play keep ball and actively try to not score, but keep the ball. You already know they can create openings and make chances by that stage.

We do not want to make the boys do anything. In that game I think all of the boys managed to get a goal which was good for each individual but in the game I can hardly remember the ball going above head height. We would win the ball and some boys would take people on or plan a clever route through traffic and get themselves in a position for a shot but what really pleased us was each of their decision making and the amount of times that the opposition could not get the ball, not because we were any better or physically stronger but purely because we either kept it away from them by an individual switching the side of their body that the ball was on or calling a play around or a take over (one boy runs across the other and takes the ball from him, unbalancing the opposition). If they pass (and the do regularly but not because they are told to) then we may or may not keep the ball so sometimes the boys will opt for something else where a good pass is not on but we always want the boys to make their own decisions on how they play. If the boys can make clever, natural decisions then they are in with a chance, if we are telling them that one touch is the way to go then we have a team of players who ping it around but often have no penetration in the final third.

After the game we will talk to the boys about what they did well and how they did it and often during a game we will set challenges like keeping the ball for 30 seconds at a time. We also use the keeper a lot when we have the ball to create an overload as the keeper is just another football player and should never be left to grow roots at the back of the pitch.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Des wrote: »

So what, I jut rock up to some club and tell them I'd like to coach underage, and they'll pay for me? Really?

Over here the FA have something called Charter Standard. A charter standard club have to fulfill certain criteria, including having to have qualified coaches. The clubs as a result of their status though do receive extra funding from the FA and access to better faciliteis that clubs who do not sign up to the Charter Standard do not get. As a result of this, clubs will often pay to get all coaches qualified as it kind of pays for itself.

Hangballlouie

I coached an underage team for about 6 years from under 9s to 15s. Great experience. For the first couple of years we struggled badly but we talked to the boys and told them it was just about enjoying it and learning. From u12s we started to get better and the players developed and grew into their positions and as a team. I was lucky that The chairman was of the same mind and he believed that the kids should learn and enjoy it. Another team close to us chopped and changed coaches because of results!! These were 10-11 year olds and all the club cared about was winning. Crazy.

Because the kids had developed together we started getting promotions and moving up in DDSL. After the u15 season we lost about 7 of the lads to bigger teams in Dublin and we didn't begrudge them as it gave them a better opportunity to play for a better team. Some of the lads went on to play LOI and it's nice seeing them now and them talking(sometimes drunk) about how they loved playing for me and the other coach. We didn't have enough players to keep the team together so we called it a day.

Family commitments got in the way of staying involved on the coaching side tbh but it's something I'm thinking about getting back into. Fair play OP, this thread has me really thinking of getting back into coaching as I found hugely enjoyable and would recommend it to anyone thinking of getting involved.

I know from staying involved on the committee side of it up to a year ago, a lot of clubs struggle to get coaches to commit to the role.

(apologies for any mistakes above, typing on my phone)

Mars Bar

What I gathered from KickStart 1 and 2 was that they were just working on the FUN part of the fundamentals rather than the long term development. That begins with the Youth Cert which is too late really.

Fair play to ya for having the patience for working with U9's T4TF!

I had U9's for the summer soccer schools and to be honest, I felt it was a nightmare. It was a week of endless "gladiator" games and tying laces.

Out of curiosity, how do you go about explaining the formation to the children?

I'm gonna be coaching the Galway U14 representative squads. We'll have 5 weeks of trials. I'll definitely have my eyes on the girls who can work themselves out of trouble by keeping the ball and the passers.

Mars Bar

And when are we getting our Coaches and Tactics forum? That was approved AGES ago.

UnitedIrishman

Done my FAI 1+2 and looking to get the time to get my Youth Cert in around work. Coached an U18 team for a few years and loved every minute of it and had some great success with the group we had.

That said, I don't think I could offer much advice to coaches coaching U9's or that level bar stick to what your doing presently. Reason being - I knew the majority of the guys I was coaching as I was pretty much the same age and knew where their deficiencies lay and also I didn't have any parent element to put up with. Also at that age group, you are playing to win.

More important than anything though is the basic skills like using both feet and both instep and out to control the ball. Even stuff like running properly is important at that age. You'll see kids that drag their legs when running or don't lift their arms and that's the kind of stuff you want to get them doing. Then stuff like being able to change directions quickly. Then on the football side of things - being able to head the ball correctly (unreal the amount of kids at that age who would be afraid to head a ball - and it's something I never learned correctly at a young age which has stuck with me all the way to senior football), getting their head up when the ball is at their feet, and talking (all the worst teams I've played were so so quiet, and all the best teams I played on or against basically talked the other team off the park - by that I mean communicating with their own players obviously)

I know what you're saying about telling lads about having a go i.e. running at their markers etc. We were told by our co-ordinator that that was massively important and it's getting coached out of kids these days and he's right. Everything is pass, pass, pass these days due to the current top sides and that's not how you start producing top quality young players. Whilst passing is important it is alot easier to teach a kid how to kick a ball five yards to his team mate once he has his first touch and that perfect.

Fair play for doing what you're doing and even at times if it is tough going with parents etc, the kids will thank you down the line believe me. I had a coach that made us run laps every training session at that age group (we were lucky enough to be a decent side anyhow due to playground football etc) followed by a right good coach at U16's and I'll always remember how much of a douche the first guy was and how thankful I was to have the second coach.

If you need any drills or that for anything specific just ask although I'd imagine you'd know pretty much all I've learned bar what I got from senior managers and college coaches which probably would be a bit advanced for kids.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Mars Bar wrote: »

Out of curiosity, how do you go about explaining the formation to the children?

We like to make it very visual as kids tend to learn better (in my experience) when they have something that they can see in their heads.

We place a red cone at the back for the keeper, a line of another colour and then a line of another colour. We discuss the space that each individual will be in and how they can interact with the play and what they do when we have the ball and they have by moving the cones around. Then we show how players can move the play and run the play around. Finally we have the boys stand on their spots on the cones and show us in miniature how the arcs would work for them and have players swap and see if other players are happy to swap into their place or think of it.

It is not about a formation really, it is about proper occupation of the space that is available but we do say to a player you are in the space at the right of the front arc. There are still occasions where a few of the boys chase the ball but we are seeing less and less of that.

Mars Bar

Very interesting! I was thinking to myself that ye were hardly drawing pictures for the children. It'd be hard to get them to sit down and listen.

I'd imagine having an understanding of shape and how important it is instills discipline in the players play.

Kirby

I coach under 9's aswell. I try and promote the passing game and absolutely no long ball. The kids don't learn anything from hoof and chase. Everything is on the deck, even from the keeper.

Regarding parents, there is always one. I rotate my team with rolling subs. Everyone plays. Even the best player comes off for a few minutes and this really rankles one or two of the parents who just want to win and think the best players should be allowed to play all of the game.

I have a talented team but you can just tell the kids who "get it" from an early age. The head comes up when they get the ball and they pass it to the free man instead of dribbling into trouble.

At this age group, passing is an issue. You often see the skillfull kids refusing to pass because they know they wont get it back. I really believe this is the biggest hurdle at this level of play.

I've played around with a few systems but have my kids playing 2-2-2 for the last year or so. The two midfielders stay very central and the two strikers pull wide when we win the ball. I have found that my team plays much better by placing the two best passers in the team right in the middle of the park. It makes a big difference as the other kids know if they give it to them, they will get a return pass when they make a run.

Your arc system seems interesting. I'm tempted to try it myself.

Lahinchians

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

Mostly because even if they do not go off on one at a game, they will say whatever they want at home. We have had kids turn up and out of nowhere in a game say something like, you never pass. We as a group do not encourage the boys to pass, if the do it then great but at the moment we are encouraging them to think about how to keep the ball, if a pass is the best way then so be it, but it may be that a clever move, a trick or just having planned a clever route through the traffic can be just as effective a way to keep the ball.

sorry if ive missed a bit, only read the 1st page of the thread

Personally, even at that young age, the only thing i would encourage is the free form, free passing movement that can be seen at barca. all those guys learned from younger then 9, how passing the ball was better then keeping it.

I understand that that is quite an extreme example, but I personally feel that your, bolded above, statment is one thing that could kill enthusiasm in the sport at that young an age. When I was young playing footie in summer camps in london we were always told to pass the ball as soon as we had possession. I would generally see that as the way forward, in terms of bringing a team through anyway that is.

I, personally, feel that we need to start integrating a more modern, more technical, style of play into our youth leagues. i feel it will eventually improve our national leagues, but also our international team.

all of this said with out a single coaching badge or anything, just the ramblings of a drunkerd

Lahinchians

must say, now ive read some more it really seems you've yer heads on yer shoulders. I know at that age it can be a lil bit of a free for all, but try n persist with your plan n i hope it pays off!!!!

Thanx 4 The Fish

Am at a seminar tonight with John Cartwright. If I get a chance I am going to run some of this stuff past him and see what he suggests. If anyone knows about patience in football it will be him.

GavRedKing

Great reading T4TF, some great ideas and beliefs been instilled in young kids and all to learn and enjoy the great game.

G'luck with it, keep us posted on the progress.

G.K.

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

Am at a seminar tonight with John Cartwright. If I get a chance I am going to run some of this stuff past him and see what he suggests. If anyone knows about patience in football it will be him.

Was he Geoff Hurst's old mate?

Irishcrx

carlop wrote: »

This is a little off-topic but just walking by a junior club today and they were out doing their training session. The kids were probably about 12 or so and we're playing a game of 7-a-side, however it was on a pitch with walls and if the ball hit the wall it was not regarded as out of play.

Is this not massively detrimental to their development?

I noticed last time I was playing astro with mates that everytime someone played a long ball that would hit a side or back wall and rebound to the striker people would say 'nice pass' or 'good ball.'

How can an overhit ball that bounces off a wall be considered a 'good pass,' and how can it help children to play on a pitch where the ball can't go out?

Astro is a completely differant game to eleven a side , I play both and take a differant approach to play in them as I'm sure a lot of people do. You can't pass the same on an astro , yes a lot of the time balls bounce favourably etc but you can also 'mean' to hit the wall if your going by a player or laying him on with a long ball the wall can act as a 'player' for you if you dip the ball right, which is also adding value to your passing range.

A lot of quick passes and close quarters in astro also won't come off on a full game. Surface , weight of pass all changes, not saying your totally wrong but sometimes they can be 'good balls' if you mean to do it and aren't just kicking it anywhere..

Knex*

G.K. wrote: »

Was he Geoff Hurst's old mate?

Not sure about that but he was, or may very well still be, heavily involved in youth football coaching in England. Actually, think someone mentioned before that he set up his own Youth Development program, or something similar.

Think he even ran the Lilleshall school for a while and may very well have been involved in the Arsenal setup if I remember correctly.

I've seen his name mentioned on this forum from time to time. I know somebody in the Liverpool thread managed to have a conversation with him in the last year or so if I'm not mistaken.

TheDoc

Best of luck, that's what it is all about.

I remember our manager for YEARS was just one of the players fathers. But he had a plan, and he stook with it. I think the important thing was that he stayed with us through the years, so we had that same sort of training and ethics being drilled in every year. Alot of clubs surprisingly keep managers at age levels, rather then move them on with the team as they grow up. Would have thought this was the norm.

I think someone else already posted, but the best way to outline it to parents is to just hold a chat with them. I was lucky in my schoolboy days in that we had a massive parental support, who had massive faith and support in the manager and were always supportive of the players. Never any negative stuff, which was great.

Thanx 4 The Fish

G.K. wrote: »

Was he Geoff Hurst's old mate?

Yep that's him. Head coach at arsenal, technical director of the PFA and loads of other footbally things. The man has forgotten more than any of us will ever learn. Played with and against actual world class players Bobby Moore, Hurst and many others, not just people who the premier league salesmen want to tell us are world class.

Knex. wrote: »

Not sure about that but he was, or may very well still be, heavily involved in youth football coaching in England. Actually, think someone mentioned before that he set up his own Youth Development program, or something similar.

Think he even ran the Lilleshall school for a while and may very well have been involved in the Arsenal setup if I remember correctly.

I've seen his name mentioned on this forum from time to time. I know somebody in the Liverpool thread managed to have a conversation with him in the last year or so if I'm not mistaken.

Was me, I have been looking for a chance to see him again and got it today.

I had a chat with him about the parents thing tonight and asked him what he thought. He said to share the vision with them If we make it clear that we are looking to develop the boys to be better footballers, then the parents shoudl buy in. He has been having numerous fights with the FA over the years about how the game should be played at the underage level and in the session he ran today he did it without goals for most of the session. And once he introduced the goals the way that the boys changed immediately. He said it is the same with the parents, when we are training and no pressure to win is on the parents are happy to buy in but when they see a team bombarding our box from their keeper and we still try and play it out they can get frustrated. We just have to convince them that in 5 years our boys will be able to play football in many positions with confidence and some skill to them and the opposition will have midfielders with cricks in their necks and a goalie who has a very well developed a strong boot for kicking at as far as they can to a big lad up top.

He talked for two hours and had people and the boys in the session hanging from every word.

seavill

Speaking from experience over the last couple of years but coaching a lot longer than that a meeting with the parents pre season is essential.

Firstly I would say that if any of them are unhappy with the way you do things inform them that this is the way you set out this year and if they don't like it, good luck, obviously you can put it a nicer way to them.

Last year I implemented an idea that everyone would get equal time on the pitch with no one receiving less than 60% all season, now believe me this is really not as easy as it sounds, but it did not go down well, more so with the players who came off rather than the ones coming on. Parents could not see the benefit and one even said I was right in what I was doing in theory but basically seen as it didn't suit his son to come off the pitch, I was clearly wrong. You can never please everyone, some people are just naturally idiots.

After last year I insist on a meeting of players and parents and I set out the way we will be doing things this year, and in a very polite way they are told if they don't like it there are other clubs locally. At least this way everyone knows from the start where they stand and by continuing are basically signing up to your philosophy.

The one thing from your posts that has stood out to me was the 14-2. This is really something you should learn from. Never let the score get to anywhere near this, particularly in a friendly, particularly at u9. Should never happen.

Play with a man less, make sure the stronger ones come off first, talk to the other manager and see do they want to call it up early. At any age a score past 6 or 7 is just embarrassing and humiliating. As someone else said your kids get nothing from it, and the opposition certainly do not.

This is the only thing I would find an issue with how you approach things.

The one thing I would say from years of watching people at every age, don't over complicate things, let them enjoy it whatever way they do, or whatever the score.