refused to fly first class because their son has Down's Syndrome

davet82

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2198317/American-Airlines-refused-family-class-seats-captain-claimed-Downs-syndrome-son-disruptive.html

Family was told that their 16-year-old son with Downs syndrome was being disruptive.

Parents disagreed and said that the American Airlines pilot was uncomfortable with the boy's disability and didn't want him in first class.

The family is now threatening to sue the airline

so can the parents win this case? or was the airline right, that he was a security risk?

The video evidence seems to suggest he was well behaved, I think I'm with the family on this one.

Biggins

davet82 wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2198317/American-Airlines-refused-family-class-seats-captain-claimed-Downs-syndrome-son-disruptive.html



so can the parents win this case? or was the airline right, that he was a security risk?

The video evidence seems to suggest he was well behaved, I think I'm with the family on this one.

If the family can prove discrimination based around a disability - yes, they have a clear case.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Fuppin America again.


Sure isn't that why they have sky marshalls now, huh, to tackle the terrorists and the mentally deficient?

If the kid had / has a history of irrational and uncontrollable physical outburts, then the decision might hold water.

Nothing surprises me anymore.....especially when it has anything to do with 'Merica!

Bluefoam

I'm not going to comment on this case. But I know if I paid the huge premium to fly first class, I would expect my fellow passengers to quiet and not moving around much - whether down syndrome or otherwise. The cost of a first class ticket is massive & the reason people choose to fly first class is for ultimate luxury...

IvySlayer

Who knows what really happened?

Was the child really being disruptive and parents are chancing to sue or were they discriminated? It's America, I don't know. I imagine there are hundreds of people with Down Syndrome flying every day in the States.

Biggins

Oddly enough, if they had of kicked the child off the plane for fear of a disturbance and/or risk to other passengers, the airline would have had a (maybe) stronger case.
...But seeing as it was ok to maybe disturb the rest of the planes passengers - but not the first class ones - its shows that the airline could still live with the risk of disturbance elsewhere on the flight, just not in first class.

Charming eh!

I've no doubts the case will be settled out of court, the airline is on a non-winner publicity-wise here alone and a jury would be hard-pressed to find the airline innocent.
...And the Airline will know it!

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Bluefoam wrote: »

I'm not going to comment on this case. But I know if I paid the huge premium to fly first class, I would expect my fellow passengers to quiet and not moving around much - whether down syndrome or otherwise. The cost of a first class ticket is massive & the reason people choose to fly first class is for ultimate luxury...

Wow, I just...wow.

Im sure people in Economy feel the same, sure, stick a tag on him and put him in the hold!

AnonoBoy

Are babies allowed in first class?

If you're in first class and your baby starts crying do they move you?

The kid hadn't even got on the plane yet and they already decided he wasn't allowed in first class. Did he run around in economy?

If he was a "security risk" then he shouldn't have been let on the plane but he was, just not in first class.

Apanachi

I've met a lot of children with Down's Syndrome and they've all been a hell of a lot less" disruptive" than most other kids.

I hope the parents win this case, discrimination like that is not on and shoukd not be tolerated, they didn't even let them sit down, how could the child even have had a chance to be disruptive.

matrim

Their video was taken after he was refused so he may have already been acting up and stopped before the parents started videotaping.

But if they can prove that he didn't do anything wrong before that (e.g. using airport cctv) then they have a case for discrimination.

AnonoBoy

Bluefoam wrote: »

I'm not going to comment on this case. But I know if I paid the huge premium to fly first class, I would expect my fellow passengers to quiet and not moving around much - whether down syndrome or otherwise. The cost of a first class ticket is massive & the reason people choose to fly first class is for ultimate luxury...

The cost is massive yes and these people paid it but yet they weren't even allowed on the plane before they were told they'd have to sit in economy.

As stated if the kid was a "security risk" then he shouldn't have been allowed on the plane.

Did the parents comment on the airline's claim that the pilot had come out to the waiting area to try and calm the kid down?

The video shows him being calm so he obviously is well behaved. Even if he was running around before he was fine at this point.

Every child that makes some noise while waiting to board a plane is now not allowed in first class? Sounds like bullsh*t to me.

A child being disruptive before getting on a plane does not equal the child being disruptive on the plane. I don't think the security risk argument will work at all. Time for the airline to cough up.

Solair

Since the 9/11 attacks, the flight deck on all US and European airliners is locked and sealed with a BULLET PROOF DOOR designed to prevent even a heavily-armed passenger from getting in there.

How exactly could this guy pose a risk to the crew? Or, how exactly could he pose any more of a risk in 1st class than in steerage?

Bluefoam

benwavner wrote: »

Wow, I just...wow.

Im sure people in Economy feel the same, sure, stick a tag on him and put him in the hold!

Don't try to associate your views with my comments. I made a very clear statement which has nothing to do with what you just wrote.

Bluefoam

AnonoBoy wrote: »

The cost is massive yes and these people paid it but yet they weren't even allowed on the plane before they were told they'd have to sit in economy.

As stated if the kid was a "security risk" then he shouldn't have been allowed on the plane.

Did the parents comment on the airline's claim that the pilot had come out to the waiting area to try and calm the kid down?

The video shows him being calm so he obviously is well behaved. Even if he was running around he was fine at this point.

Every child that makes some noise while waiting to board a plane is now not allowed in first class? Sounds like bullsh*t to me.

Like I already stated, I'm not going to comment on this case, as I don't have the facts.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Bluefoam wrote: »

Don't try to associate your views with my comments. I made a very clear statement which has nothing to do with what you just wrote.

Yeah right. You were very clear in what you wrote.

I understand what your point is. If I paid for a 1st class ticket I wold not want to be disturbed either.

The problem is, AA decided that this kid posed a risk of disturbing 1st class passengers, with or without due cause.

Anyone who flys, no matter what the class, does not want to be disturbed.....so does your point stand for Economy too, or is it just for 1st class?

AnonoBoy

Bluefoam wrote: »

Like I already stated, I'm not going to comment on this case, as I don't have the facts.

Well you have the facts that are reported and the ability to reason. Nobody's asking you to pass judgement on the case or anything, we're just discussing it.

I have the same facts as you. I only know how the parents claim their son was behaving and the video.

But even if a child was being disruptive bumping someone down to economy because of "security" is ridiculous.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Bluefoam wrote: »

Like I already stated, I'm not going to comment on this case, as I don't have the facts.

Theres no point posting here so.

Thumby

The parents said he has the mentality of a 4/5 yr old child. What child that age doesn't get excited about flying in planes before boarding? So using the airlines own logic processes does that mean they won't let 4/5 yr old kids without downs into first class because they would be a flight risk? My arse they don't. They just didn't want the child in first class. Oh and as far as i seen the later flight the family were booked on wasn't even with the same airline. They completely washed their hands of that family just because they didn't want their first class clients to be disturbed!

Biggins

Because I have a brother that is physically and mentally handicapped, I am a member of local branch of a national organisation, called the A.R.C.H.* organisation (of Ireland).
We mind and care for people.
Take them out and see to their moods/needs.

There is a great deal of downs in those clubs.
Just from experience there alone, I find that downs children/adults are actually more placid and content to do whats requested or/and just go with the flow.
ONLY when they are 'disturbed' or put out in any way, do they usually get irate (as any normal people would to be honest) - and thats afterwards... not before.

I suspect someone was just being a bit snobbish over having a downs person in first class and used 'possible disturbance' as a disgusting excuse.

Shame on them if so.

*Association of Recreational Clubs for the Handicapped.

Dravokivich

benwavner wrote: »

Yeah right. You were very clear in what you wrote.

I understand what your point is. If I paid for a 1st class ticket I wold not want to be disturbed either.

The problem is, AA decided that this kid posed a risk of disturbing 1st class passengers, with or without due cause.

Anyone who flys, no matter what the class, does not want to be disturbed.....so does your point stand for Economy too, or is it just for 1st class?

This is what I was thinking when I was reading through the article. I find it crazy that this has happened.

Father Damo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKhzkdC1CR4

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Dravokivich wrote: »

This is what I was thinking when I was reading through the article. I find it crazy that this has happened.

True, it's shocking. Im sure the seats were paid for, they didnt mind taking their money.

mikom

The little Britain boys had it spot on.........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVL4CKqBl8A

anncoates

Bluefoam wrote: »

I'm not going to comment on this case. But.......

Bluefoam wrote: »

Don't try to associate your views with my comments. I made a very clear statement which has nothing to do with what you just wrote.

Bluefoam wrote: »

Like I already stated, I'm not going to comment on this case, as I don't have the facts.

See ya.

davet82

Bluefoam wrote: »

The cost of a first class ticket is massive & the reason people choose to fly first class is for ultimate luxury...

Should children or the disabled not avail of flying in 'ultimate luxury' if they have been paid for the privalge like everyone else in that class?

Maybe the airline should operate an over 18s policy on first class but how to get around discriminating against the disabled is a tricky one... :rolleyes:

Alactric

anncoates wrote: »

See ya.

He was making an observation. He's aloud to do that you know. He doesn't have to deal with the OP directly. His point is still relevant, if a little insular. You pay money expecting to get a service.

Myrddin

Ah America. The child was probably more able than most of the people on board, despite his disability.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Alactric wrote: »

He was making an observation. He's aloud to do that you know. He doesn't have to deal with the OP directly. His point is still relevant, if a little insular. You pay money expecting to get a service.

Did the family not also pay for the service?

Thumby

@alactric
Thats fair enough, but so did the parents of the child refused his seat which was paid just as much for.

davet82

Alactric wrote: »

He was making an observation. He's aloud to do that you know.

he is also allowed to be challenged over his observations!

Alactric

benwavner wrote: »

Did the family not also pay for the service?

Yeah, of course. I never said anything to the contrary
People are just jumping down Bluefoams throat for chiming in. Which, is why I responded? Chill.

Alactric

davet82 wrote: »

he is also allowed to be challenged over his observations!

...He was told to go bye bye. Passive aggressiveness doesn't help anything

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Alactric wrote: »

Yeah, of course. I never said anything to the contrary
People are just jumping down Bluefoams throat for chiming in. Which, is why I responded? Chill.

You need to "chill", a lot gets lost in translation when you associate your own tone.

They are just rebuttals and not accusations of biggotry.

Biggins

AnonoBoy wrote: »

...even if a child was being disruptive bumping someone down to economy because of "security" is ridiculous.

If you even think about it - there is more passengers compacted together tighter in the lower classes.

So if there was going to be a disturbance, where would be the worst place to put someone possibly disruptive!
In a more roomy place (that was paid for) or a place where they more so pack people in like sardines in a can and there's more people possibly!

Stupidity on behalf of the airline, on using that excuse alone!

Alactric

benwavner wrote: »

You need to "chill", a lot gets lost in translation when you associate your own tone.

They are just rebuttals and not accusations of biggotry.

Bigot? what?

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Alactric wrote: »

Bigot? what?

Not you horse. Read the post again. I am saying a lot gets lost in translation, the posts are just rebuttals and not bigotted comments.

I am not accusing you or anyone else of being one.

Lelantos

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Bluefoam wrote: »

I'm not going to comment on this case. But I know if I paid the huge premium to fly first class, I would expect my fellow passengers to quiet and not moving around much - whether down syndrome or otherwise. The cost of a first class ticket is massive & the reason people choose to fly first class is for ultimate luxury...

The cost is massive yes and these people paid it but yet they weren't even allowed on the plane before they were told they'd have to sit in economy.

As stated if the kid was a "security risk" then he shouldn't have been allowed on the plane.

Did the parents comment on the airline's claim that the pilot had come out to the waiting area to try and calm the kid down?

The video shows him being calm so he obviously is well behaved. Even if he was running around before he was fine at this point.

Every child that makes some noise while waiting to board a plane is now not allowed in first class? Sounds like bullsh*t to me.

A child being disruptive before getting on a plane does not equal the child being disruptive on the plane. I don't think the security risk argument will work at all. Time for the airline to cough up.

You don't think ? How can you possibly make any comment based on a video that was taken after the event? The boy is 16, not a child, maybe the thought of being on a plane frightened him to the point of having a panic attack? Maybe the pilot had to approach the family & calm him down , or maybe its all lies & they are discriminatory & trying to cover their ass. But the point is, we don't know, we can't call bullsht as we don't know. Am very interested to see how this goes though.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Lelantos wrote: »

You don't think ? How can you possibly make any comment based on a video that was taken after the event? The boy is 16, not a child, maybe the thought of being on a plane frightened him to the point of having a panic attack? Maybe the pilot had to approach the family & calm him down , or maybe its all lies & they are discriminatory & trying to cover their ass. But the point is, we don't know, we can't call bullsht as we don't know. Am very interested to see how this goes though.

I heard he didnt even have Downes Syndrome, he was just eating a toffee.

Cmon, it's obvious that the 1st class passengers were being looked after.

Bluefoam

anncoates wrote: »

See ya.

Thanks for taking authority and trying to bully me off the thread...

It seems that some posters here just want to get agitated and fight with someone.

I will clarify my point... I have made no negative response against the child in question. I have not commented as to whether he or any other should be moved from their pre booked seats in any circumstances. My point was solely referring to the expectations of first class passengers. I know allot of people who crew flights and I have personal previous experience. First class passengers are demanding and often selfish. They will make demands to the crew. I do not necessarily agree with them, I'm just stating the facts.

Personally, I am not a first class flyer, nor have I ever been, but I do know many.

anncoates

Alactric wrote: »

You pay money expecting to get a service.

As did the people refused entry to the section of the flight that they paid for.

Wonder how many drunk businessmen they let off the hook in first class.

Biggins

Ask oneself this after reading the information currently available...

...Before the person involved got on the plane, was he causing any disturbance or any more of a disturbance than any other person entering first class?

* If not - they were selecting him out for other reasons, they looking likely based around his disability.

* If he was a prior disturbance (and prove it also) to his getting on the plane, the airline might have a case - but then they will have to explain why it was ok to just shift him down further (on another airline) !
Strange in itself!

Zab

Biggins wrote: »

Oddly enough, if they had of kicked the child off the plane for fear of a disturbance and/or risk to other passengers, the airline would have had a (maybe) stronger case.

AnonoBoy wrote: »

The cost is massive yes and these people paid it but yet they weren't even allowed on the plane before they were told they'd have to sit in economy.

They didn't get put in economy. They weren't allowed on the flight at all. They later travelled economy with a different airline.

Ive flown first class on a number of occasions, on long haul flights, and to be honest the only disturbance I encountered was from the first class passengers being served too much alcohol.

Lots of babies cry on planes be it first or economy class, should babies be classed as a disturbance and be taken off flights??


ridiculous and sad.

matrim

Thumby wrote: »

The parents said he has the mentality of a 4/5 yr old child. What child that age doesn't get excited about flying in planes before boarding? So using the airlines own logic processes does that mean they won't let 4/5 yr old kids without downs into first class because they would be a flight risk? My arse they don't. They just didn't want the child in first class. Oh and as far as i seen the later flight the family were booked on wasn't even with the same airline. They completely washed their hands of that family just because they didn't want their first class clients to be disturbed!

The difference is that it would be very easy for an adult to restrain a 4/5 year old if they were causing a physical disturbance. It would be very hard for an adult to restrain a 16yo if they are causing a physical disturbance.

The airline probably did stop the kid because he had downs rather than because he caused a disturbance and if they did they should get a hefty fine. But to compare a 16yo causing a physical disturbance to a 5yo is comparing apples and oranges.

Biggins

Zab wrote: »

They didn't get put in economy. They weren't allowed on the flight at all. They later travelled economy with a different airline.

Correct - however they had flown many times before in lower classes - and there was never problems.

The family, who have flown together dozens of times insist Bede was singled out on this occasion as they had upgraded to the first class section.

Because they were upgraded to first class, well... then the problems rose it appears when the person visibly turned up and a judgement was (hastily?) made for reasons we can only guess!

---

The Vanderhorsts reached their home in Bakersfield, California, but travelled in economy and say they have not been refunded for their first class upgrade.

It was ok for them to fly economy with another flight - just not first class with the first airline.

Faolchu

Biggins wrote: »

I've no doubts the case will be settled out of court, the airline is on a non-winner publicity-wise here alone and a jury would be hard-pressed to find the airline innocent.
...And the Airline will know it!

couldnt agree more. eitherway the airline are screwed, on teh one hand if they take it to court then its a case of "big bad corporation Vs the kid with a disability" if they dont and settle in then in teh eyes of joe publuic they're guilty of discrimination even though the settlement may be "without admission of liability"

I could understand the point of the airline if the child had been a problem while in the airport etc, but then what kid isnt excitable with the prospect of flying? stroll up and down any airport departures lounge and you'll see kids of all levels of ability running about being kids and this behavour doesnt change much when on board, apart from the running bit. i think teh airlen felt they'd have a number of complaints from other passangers in first class seeking a refund because of the child and didnt want to risk lost revenues

GarIT

I have to agree with BlueFoam I wouldn't wan't to have to be near children of any kind, on a plane, on a train in a resteraunt or anywhere where I dont want to be disturbed because naturally children are more likely to cause a disturbance. I have seen disabled children cause troube before, they sometimes get agressive, I know a child with severe autism that is always very loud and extremely annoying. Maybe they don't do it often but they can, so given a choice I wouldn't choose to be near them.

I do however think that once they paid for the service they should have gotten it, disability or not and regardless of age the child had a right to be on the plane.

I just got this on my facebook, from IDSC for life ( IDSC is the International Downs Syndrome Coalition)

Interesting in light of what we are discussing.


In response to your article about the DS boy who was removed from a flight: Last spring I took my kids for their first plane ride to Jamaica. We were waiting( my son has a very difficult time with waiting and changes to his normal routine)for a Delta connection. I was working at keeping him entertained and calm while waiting in the jet way.

When we were a few feet from the door, my son who is non-verbal started to loudly yell and laugh. The crew heard the commotion and looked our way. The pilot came over, crouched down and started signing to Connor as he spoke to me. I told him this was a first flight and didn't know what to expect. He said that his son was special needs and not to worry, that the staff would do anything to help us out. Including moving some people out of seats near us to give us an extra bubble of space.

He then let Connor explore the cockpit and sit in his seat. The pilots and the whole Delta crew were wonderful! The company should be really proud of that crew.
Like · · Share

JustAThought

The ADA Act is very clear. No doubt AA is in trouble . But I agree re the children in first class ; you pay for service , comfort & peace & quiet.Too many fawning parents typically let their children be noisy, disruptive & run amuck. A no u18 's & adult code of behaviour should help resolve that.

No doubt AA will try & wiggle out of it with " threat to security" ... With a bit of bad luck the parents will find themselves a possible threat to national security using a handicapped child as a foil to distract from their " attempt " terrorist " intentions" < rollseyes> ... just like Joe Bloggs with his water bottle , all thirsty, trying to get through customs : (

I see them with free upgrades for life

Faolchu

Biggins wrote: »

- but then they will have to explain why it was ok to just shift him down further!
!

they flew with a different airline in economy class

LizT

GarIT wrote: »

I have to agree with BlueFoam I wouldn't wan't to have to be near children of any kind, on a plane, on a train in a resteraunt or anywhere where I dont want to be disturbed because naturally children are more likely to cause a disturbance. I have seen disabled children cause troube before, they sometimes get agressive, I know a child with severe autism that is always very loud and extremely annoying. Maybe they don't do it often but they can, so given a choice I wouldn't choose to be near them.

I do however think that once they paid for the service they should have gotten it, disability or not and regardless of age the child had a right to be on the plane.

You do realise that autism and down syndrome are completely different disabilities, right? And just because you know a child with autism and know the way they'd react doesn't mean that you should just assume any child with a disability would or could react similarly.