refused to fly first class because their son has Down's Syndrome

notsobusy

Surely there has to be more to this story than meets the eye. Would a huge airline make such a huge mistake like that???

Lelantos

Biggins wrote: »

Lelantos wrote: »

It's the law, posted earlier, look it up if you wish, some have denied people's right to film & courts uphold the individuals rights to do so. Rodney King situation not to be allowed ever again
As for police & airline staff being there, yes, if theres any evidence or intimidation or wrong doing on their behalf, it will go to court, criminal proceedings have nothing to do with the airline, if a complaint is made, its followed upon. So far, only complaints have been made to the media, maybe tomorrow more of this story will break.

State America airline regulations in regards to security are constantly changing - partly due to their somewhat (over?) hyper-sensitivity in the area of security since 9/11 sadly.

I'm taking the assumption that the Airline official quoting the rules to the family on the day, knew the current rules pertaining to recording, better than all those that later on seem to know some broader rules which might apply still outside high security areas as such.

Nope, its a reflex reaction, when someone points a camera in your face & you don't know them, you go on the defensive, but, it is not illegal to do so. Look it up, first amendment, then state of new jersey law, you don't even need the persons permission to film

Biggins

notsobusy wrote: »

Surely there has to be more to this story than meets the eye. Would a huge airline make such a huge mistake like that???

They wouldn't deliberately but silly events sadly do happen maybe when someone often thinks they got a bit of power and let it go to their head.

Personally seen it happen before myself in Ireland.
I'm sure many here have seen similar cases (of power going to ones head with daft results).

omega666

Lelantos wrote: »

It's the law, posted earlier, look it up if you wish, some have denied people's right to film & courts uphold the individuals rights to do so. Rodney King situation not to be allowed ever again
As for police & airline staff being there, yes, if theres any evidence or intimidation or wrong doing on their behalf, it will go to court, criminal proceedings have nothing to do with the airline, if a complaint is made, its followed upon. So far, only complaints have been made to the media, maybe tomorrow more of this story will break.

there is not a free for all when it comes to filming. each state has different laws but some restrictions are you cant film federal buildings, some's state do not allow audio unless you tell the person and get thier consent, you cant film on private property without permission of the owner etc..
I would be very surprised if you were allowed to film security officers in an airport lounge, it's not the same as filming a police office on a public street.

Run_to_da_hills

Hitler started with people that had downs syndrome, he then moved on to the mental hospitals, then he cleared out the ghettos.

The history book on the shelf is always repeating itself.

Biggins

Lelantos wrote: »

Nope, its a reflex reaction, when someone points a camera in your face & you don't know them, you go on the defensive, but, it is not illegal to do so. Look it up, first amendment, then state of new jersey law, you don't even need the persons permission to film

If thats the pure case - and I know about the first amendment, someone official at the airport acting for the airline is abusing those serious first amendment laws - and if they can do that - what else are they capable of?

Discrimination maybe also?

Motorist

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Hitler started with people that had downs syndrome, he then moved on to the mental hospitals, then he cleared out the ghettos.

The history book on the shelf is always repeating itself.

Godwin's Law is always one to be weary of.

Biggins

omega666 wrote: »

there is not a free for all when it comes to filming. each state has different laws but some restrictions are you cant film federal buildings, some's state do not allow audio unless you tell the person and get thier consent, you cant film on private property without permission of the owner etc..
I would be very surprised if you were allowed to film security officers in an airport lounge, it's not the same as filming a police office on a public street.

...And as such its private property which also brings in MAYBE other complex laws.

token101

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Hitler started with people that had downs syndrome, he then moved on to the mental hospitals, then he cleared out the ghettos.

The history book on the shelf is always repeating itself.

F*cking poetry Jim :pac::pac:

So what you're saying is that people who are mental, like those who can hear the talking book repeating itsellf on the shelf, should beware because they may no longer be allowed to fly?

omega666

Biggins wrote: »

...And as such its private property which also brings in MAYBE other complex laws.

Actually i stand corrected, it seems you can film in the airport.
It certainly wont go down very well though, all it will achieve is piss them off and no doubt they will find some excuse or way of stopping you.

Biggins

omega666 wrote: »

Actually i stand corrected, it seems you can film in the airport.
It certainly wont go down very well though, all it will achieve is piss them off and no doubt they will find some excuse or way of stopping you.

Indeed which is why I mentioned that it seems an Airport official was then maybe breaking the law.
A very basic constitutional law - and if they can do that, what else are they capable of!

TheChizler

I would be curious as to the layout of the departure lounge, whether there's a separate section for first class or if they're all just one area, and to what drew the airline's attention to him in the first place.

If there were separate sections, with the lad sitting in the first class area and was happy out, my opinion is that the only way he would be picked out from the crowd would be on a discriminatory basis.

However if it was just one big waiting area, with first class mixed in with economy, and the lad was calm and happy out, I would think that it would be very unlikely that he would be picked out on the sole basis of having DS. People with DS frequently fly and I think that it would be very unlikely for the airline to have a discriminatory basis for picking him out from the mixed crowd.

Therefore I would say that the previous scenario would be quite unlikely, and that;

He was sitting in the first class boarding area all calm, and he was picked out cause they didn't want someone with DS in first class.
or
He was in the first class area causing a disturbance (the magnitude of which we can't speculate on) and was singled out for a genuine reason at least.
or
He was setting in a mixed area causing a disturbance and singled out.

It just feels like we're not getting the full story. I always get uncomfortable when one side's story is limited.

MadsL

benwavner wrote: »

I find anyone being denied something legitimate for no good reason outrageous.

But you are less surprised when it happens in America than in Ireland. Even though the Irish incident has greater effect on the Downs kid ?

I am not suggesting that this is an "exclusive American incident" so dont put words in my mouth or make up your own stories, you are losing the run of yourself.

So if this is not an exclusively American occurrence why are you not surprised it happened in America and not in any other nation.

Also, are you kidding me? If I was to list a load of "exclusive American incidents" we would be here all week.

I'd love to see you post three incidents that haven't also happened in other countries.

I will just leave the words "random school / cinema shootings" here.......not excluisive to the US of course, but you are the only one suggesting that.

There ya go, now you are getting the point.

I dont actually have a dim view of the country, I am just not surprised when an incident like this occurs there....simple.

There you are again, making stuff up. Its not "more likely to happen", I am just not surprised it did.

And you still haven't explained why airlines in the US are more likely to refuse a Downs kid? I'd really like to know how you possibly got to that conclusion.
If I say 'I'm not surprised Pat Kenny painted himself blue" expect people to be incredulous if this is the first time it ever happened. Especially if you start saying "That's just like Pat Kenny to do that".

I wont nit pic of your word choice "surprised", you cant seen to comprehend my use of the word.

I can comprehend it, you just don't seem to have shown any basis for your use of it.

I hold no hate against America or Americans. People can form an opinion without hatred.

An opinion is a reasonable held belief. A prejudice is a unreasonably held belief held about a group of people purely on the basis of (for example) where they come from.

More makey up stories.....try reading and decyphering sentances better. Where did I say they shot a kid?

You said "Shoot first and ask questions later attitude" Do try and keep up.

I think its passed your bedtime.

You really don't know how that time difference works do you.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

MadsL wrote: »

But you are less surprised when it happens in America than in Ireland. Even though the Irish incident has greater effect on the Downs kid ?


So if this is not an exclusively American occurrence why are you not surprised it happened in America and not in any other nation.


I'd love to see you post three incidents that haven't also happened in other countries.

There ya go, now you are getting the point.





And you still haven't explained why airlines in the US are more likely to refuse a Downs kid? I'd really like to know how you possibly got to that conclusion.
If I say 'I'm not surprised Pat Kenny painted himself blue" expect people to be incredulous if this is the first time it ever happened. Especially if you start saying "That's just like Pat Kenny to do that".


I can comprehend it, you just don't seem to have shown any basis for your use of it.


An opinion is a reasonable held belief. A prejudice is a unreasonably held belief held about a group of people purely on the basis of (for example) where they come from.


You said "Shoot first and ask questions later attitude" Do try and keep up.



You really don't know how that time difference works do you.

My last word on this is...im not surprised this happened in America. Thats it. I wont keep saying it over and over again. There is no point pulling apart my sentances and twisting them for a weak argument. Dont bother directing anymore posts to me, you are on the ignore list so i wont see your post....as is overheal.

Im passed my bedtime, y'all have a nice day now y'hear.

MadsL

^^

I'm not surprised.

BUBBLE WRAP

MadsL wrote: »

^^

I'm not surprised.

Neither am I, you were just going round in circles with that argument tbh.

Overheal

BUBBLE WRAP wrote: »

Neither am I, you were just going round in circles with that argument tbh.

Then you can appreciate that it's infinitely simpler to make sure that one merely edits/fact-checks themselves before they post utter nonsense in the first place.

BUBBLE WRAP

Overheal wrote: »

Then you can appreciate that it's infinitely simpler to make sure that one merely edits/fact-checks themselves before they post utter nonsense in the first place.

I don't follow.

patwicklow

Makes me sick were ALL human no matter what.. 1st class my ass... 1st Scum bags be more like it..

Overheal

BUBBLE WRAP wrote: »

I don't follow.

The whole reason that tangent arose was because a poster started posting nonsense disguised as factual statements and in doing so said a number of bigoted things. Among them, it was implied that Sky Marshalls tackle the mentally retarded and that incidents/bizarre events are more likely to occur in America (years, and years of threads and discussion on this board have both argued and proven otherwise - you're more likely to hear about it from the US because of an extremely free and vocal Press).

MadsL

He was also asked to post just three outrageous incidents that only happen in America and then oops, bedtime, ignore, wah wah wah....

Like I said earlier "I don't mind opinions, can't bear casual bigotry though."

Lelantos

Biggins wrote: »

Lelantos wrote: »

Nope, its a reflex reaction, when someone points a camera in your face & you don't know them, you go on the defensive, but, it is not illegal to do so. Look it up, first amendment, then state of new jersey law, you don't even need the persons permission to film

If thats the pure case - and I know about the first amendment, someone official at the airport acting for the airline is abusing those serious first amendment laws - and if they can do that - what else are they capable of?

Discrimination maybe also?

No, as I said, its a reflex action, nobody likes to be filmed by people they don't know, hence people ducking at wedding videos or shielding their faces,.someone else mentioned state laws & where you can or cannot film, the airport can be filmed, the people working there can be filmed, you are allowed video your bags being searched if you so wish. If someone gets narked at you doing so & tells you stop, they have no right, cannot remove either you or your camera

BUBBLE WRAP

Overheal wrote: »

The whole reason that tangent arose was because a poster started posting nonsense disguised as factual statements and in doing so said a number of bigoted things. Among them, it was implied that Sky Marshalls tackle the mentally retarded and that incidents/bizarre events are more likely to occur in America (years, and years of threads and discussion on this board have both argued and proven otherwise - you're more likely to hear about it from the US because of an extremely free and vocal Press).

Oh yes, I see what your saying. Thanks for taking your time to explain it.

PyeContinental

Biggins wrote: »

Well if an airline is already intimidating one of your party is trouble, they are saying they are a security risk, they are saying they have the right to get you to stop filming citing regulations, and the cops turn up ...good luck continuing to film.
Unless there is a legal lawyer there present at the time to argue like in court, you don't stand much chance in being able to continue recording.

I suspect the family were surrounded by cops, staff, other people looking on, other anxious to board - a tough situation to be in while you delay everyone and further argue your right to record and still possibly hold the rest up!

Good luck arguing your first amendment rights with a cop while trying to mind a now agitated child.
You must be very good.

Lelantos wrote: »

So now we add intimidation to the mix, will love to see the outcome of this, I'd there is even an ounce of truth to your claims it will not be hushed up, I personally think not, its starting to get a little overcomplicated now.

Overheal wrote: »

Intimidation re: the videotaping, not the rest of it.

Re the filming, I'm pretty sure what Biggins meant was to "intimate", as in the verb to imply/suggest/hint, and not "intimidate" as in to threaten.
So if you read his sentence as:
"Well if an airline is already intimating [that] one of your party is trouble, they are saying they are a security risk, they are saying they have the right to get you to stop filming citing regulations, and the cops turn up ...good luck continuing to film."
... then it makes more sense.

Re the overall case, it seems that there's not enough known at the moment to make an informed judgement on it, but I have a feeling that the kid might have been "in a distressed state" at some point in the airport. Perhaps the parents are used to certain outbursts and know what his limits are, but of course other people would not be used to seeing this, and might worry or think that the kid was more out of control than he really was, or certainly than the parents might have considered he was.

I wonder if he might have been of a physical size where it could have been potentially problematic should it have become necessary to restrain him for his own good and/or the safety of others, if he were to become distressed during the flight.

Just speculation of course, for the purposes of contributing to the main topic of the thread.

Overheal

MadsL wrote: »

He was also asked to post just three outrageous incidents that only happen in America and then oops, bedtime, ignore, wah wah wah....

Hell at this point I'd be curious to be told of/reminded of One.

If some skanger kid wasn't allowed into 1st class because he was gonna be disruptive, then no one would care. The kid must have been acting up and the airline decided that the kid was gonna ruin 1st class. Fair enough.

Wompa1

MadsL wrote: »

He was also asked to post just three outrageous incidents that only happen in America and then oops, bedtime, ignore, wah wah wah....

Like I said earlier "I don't mind opinions, can't bear casual bigotry though."

Didn't mention the fact that it's been one of the lead stories on multiple news networks all this week. It was still a lead story on CNN as of today so obviously Americans care quite a bit about this and it's something that doesn't happen too often and is seen as outrageous here.

A lot people on here have some serious penis envy when it comes to America. Let go of the hate, it's nothing but a burden

Kirby

Deleted User wrote: »

If some skanger kid wasn't allowed into 1st class because he was gonna be disruptive, then no one would care. The kid must have been acting up and the airline decided that the kid was gonna ruin 1st class. Fair enough.

While I feel you could have articulated the point a bit better, I agree with you.

People talk about equality and equal treatment, but what they actually mean is special treatment. If a person is being disruptive, should it really matter if he has down's syndrome or not?

People are not upset at what the airline did, just who they did it to. And that tells the story really.

Equality for people here, excuses for people there. People pick and choose when it's convenient. Flying first class isn't a human right, it's an expensive ticket people pay to have an enjoyable flight. Like fuk I wanna be disrupted on a 1st class journey.

I'm surprised kids are even allowed there to be honest.

flatbackfour

Deleted User wrote: »

Equality for people here, excuses for people there. People pick and choose when it's convenient. Flying first class isn't a human right, it's an expensive ticket people pay to have an enjoyable flight. Like fuk I wanna be disrupted on a 1st class journey.

I'm surprised kids are even allowed there to be honest.

No one said its a human right, but if you pay your ticket you should not be discriminated against. Simple as.

flatbackfour

Kirby wrote: »

People talk about equality and equal treatment, but what they actually mean is special treatment. If a person is being disruptive, should it really matter if he has down's syndrome or not.

Equality of treatment is sometimes about fairness and also decency. Where we on occasion give someone a break, have a little tolerance and understanding, put ourselves out maybe.

Its not as if someone able to afford first class is not going to have the where with all to get over the inconvenience.

Even if the first class ticket was a once in a lifetime treat I would like to think I would be able to put up with the inconvenience of it, shrug the shoulders and say ah well..........

Being a parent of someone with down syndrome is difficult enough, so yea it does matter that they have down syndrome, give them a break FFS. It wont kill ya,

SerialComplaint

Deleted User wrote: »

Equality for people here, excuses for people there. People pick and choose when it's convenient. Flying first class isn't a human right, it's an expensive ticket people pay to have an enjoyable flight. Like fuk I wanna be disrupted on a 1st class journey.

.

How would having the boy shown in the video disrupt your journey?

Corvo

charlietheminxx wrote: »

This story has really gotten to me.

I have an amazing sister with Down Syndrome. She's one of the coolest people I know, utterly laid back, confident and LOVES travelling. She's been on more long-haul flights than I have (was recently in the States) and has never had a bother. She'll watch films on longhaul or nap, or listen to her ipod. On short flights she's quite content to have a flick through the magazines or look out the window, or wonder what's taking the drinks cart so long. She's just like most of us who fly.

It would break my heart to see her discriminated against because of something she has no control over.

I would never compare her to a child because she isn't. She's in her early 20's and has never been a bother to fly with (first time I remember flying with she must have been about 6 or 7). She's a lot more pleasant to sit near than many passengers on flights I've been on.

This boy's parents must be devastated. It's hard enough accepting limitations that having something like Downs brings, without other people forcing other ones on you.

Shame on the airline, and for anyone that would make assumptions about a person with special needs without knowing them.

How have more people not thanked this post...

TheChizler

SerialComplaint wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Equality for people here, excuses for people there. People pick and choose when it's convenient. Flying first class isn't a human right, it's an expensive ticket people pay to have an enjoyable flight. Like fuk I wanna be disrupted on a 1st class journey.

.

How would having the boy shown in the video disrupt your journey?

The video was taken after the incident, we have no way of knowing what actually caused the incident.

Halloran springs

Sitting near a disabled person on my first class seat, how horrifying! *Monocle drops into champagne glass*

SerialComplaint

TheChizler wrote: »

The video was taken after the incident, we have no way of knowing what actually caused the incident.

What incident?

TheChizler

SerialComplaint wrote: »

TheChizler wrote: »

The video was taken after the incident, we have no way of knowing what actually caused the incident.

What incident?

Whatever caused the pilot to come over. My point is the boy in the video might not have been acting the same before the video, and not a valid demonstration of what people here were asking "would you like this behaviour in 1st class ".

A Primal Nut

benwavner wrote: »

My last word on this is...im not surprised this happened in America. Thats it. I wont keep saying it over and over again.

What a stupid, insulting thing to say..I suppose we should generalise about Pakistani people too because of the way they treated the Down Syndrome girl accused of burning the Qu'ran?

Can you explain why you are not surprised it happened in America? So if this happened in Ireland, you'd be shocked, but because it happens in USA you are not surprised? If that's the case you are very naive about what happens here in Ireland. It sounds like a racial generalisation to be honest. If it was said about any other country people would be horrified but apparently it's ok to make these generalisations about Americans?

Discrimination against disabled people happens all over the world unfortunately, not just America. You are stupid if you think otherwise. At least America offers recourse to these people in the courts. I would argue that USA and Europe are probably the best when it comes to treatment of disabled people, especially when compared to Africa for example.

A Primal Nut

Here are examples to prove wrong the moronic idea that discrimination against disabled people only happens in America (I've never heard anything more absurd in my life):

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/irish-paralympic-team-sponsor-settles-discrimination-case-taken-by-disabled-woman-3220276.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/aug/20/paralympics-disabled-people-spending-cuts

http://www.africanews.com/site/Who_protects_disabled_women_against_violence_AIDS/list_messages/42146

newman10

A Disability occurs when a Child or Adult with an Impairment (Physical, Mental, Sensory or Intellectual) has a disadvantage or restriction of activity placed upon them by a Society which does not take into account the People themselves.

PS I am the proud Father of a 10yo boy who happens to have Down Syndrome

flatbackfour

flatbackfour wrote: »

No one said its a human right, but if you pay your ticket you should not be discriminated against. Simple as.

Paying your ticket has nothing to do with being let into first class.. As I said, I'm shocked kids are ever allowed into it. If I heard a kid yapping or some down syndrome kid disrupting my 1st class flight, I'd complain. I don't care if the person has no arms and legs, if he's pissing me off, I'd complain.

Excuses shouldn't be made and if the pilot came over, then the kid was definitely up to something that suggested he'd be an annoyance. Down sysdrome or not.

billybudd

Deleted User wrote: »

Paying your ticket has nothing to do with being let into first class.. As I said, I'm shocked kids are ever allowed into it. If I heard a kid yapping or some down syndrome kid disrupting my 1st class flight, I'd complain. I don't care if the person has no arms and legs, if he's pissing me off, I'd complain.

Excuses shouldn't be made and if the pilot came over, then the kid was definitely up to something that suggested he'd be an annoyance. Down sysdrome or not.

There is no distinction in first class, if you pay for a ticket you are not guaranteed peace and quiet, you are guaranteed a nicer and more comfortable experience and that is all.

You have no proof that the DS person caused any trouble and until you or others do then its best to remain quiet rather than appear ignorant.

If there was a protocol on actual class being a requirment for 1st class then i am sure you would not qualify, quite ironic.

Biggins

billybudd wrote: »

...If there was a protocol on actual class being a requirment for 1st class then i am sure you would not qualify, quite ironic.

Ouch!

Meow!!!!! :pac:

CruelCoin

Halloran springs wrote: »

Sitting near a disabled person on my first class seat, how horrifying! *Monocle drops into champagne glass*

There are varying degrees.

A: There are many who are quiet, and only have a slight disability. Not an annoyance.
B: There are others who rock back and forth screeching and roaring. Big annoyance.

For the pilot to come over suggests that the kid was acting up and he felt he needed to act. Pilots are an extremely talented and professional bunch of people, and its not really fair to tar him with the bigot brush.

Personally, i i'd paid thousands (as opposed to hundreds) for a first class seat and was sat next to someone from option b above, i'd be pretty miffed.

Joey the lips

You need to have a disability or indeed a child with a disability to understand why this is 10 steps backward.

I hope they sue, win there case and buy there own plane.

SerialComplaint

Deleted User wrote: »

If I heard a kid yapping or some down syndrome kid disrupting my 1st class flight, I'd complain. I don't care if the person has no arms and legs, if he's pissing me off, I'd complain.

He's not a 'downs syndrome kid'. He's a kid with downs syndrome. Don't define him by his disability. Maybe you'd like to focus on his abilities instead - such as his ability (as demonstrated in the video) to be calm and relaxed.

But instead, you choose to focus on the unsubstantiated bit of the story - I wonder why?

Lelantos

SerialComplaint wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

If I heard a kid yapping or some down syndrome kid disrupting my 1st class flight, I'd complain. I don't care if the person has no arms and legs, if he's pissing me off, I'd complain.

He's not a 'downs syndrome kid'. He's a kid with downs syndrome. Don't define him by his disability. Maybe you'd like to focus on his abilities instead - such as his ability (as demonstrated in the video) to be calm and relaxed.

But instead, you choose to focus on the unsubstantiated bit of the story - I wonder why?

This whole case is about him being downs. If it was an ordinary kid acting the maggot & he was not allowed fly, would there be this much uproar?

billybudd

Lelantos wrote: »

This whole case is about him being downs. If it was an ordinary kid acting the maggot & he was not allowed fly, would there be this much uproar?

It is about knowing facts before spewing aspersions about people.

Bluefoam

billybudd wrote: »

It is about knowing facts before spewing aspirations about people.

aspirations? really?

billybudd

Bluefoam wrote: »

aspirations? really?

Ha, eager beaver.