Public Sector Unions

Chips Lovell

bluecode wrote: »

The only thing propping up the entire PS is money given to us by the IMF/EU. Eventually they will turn around and ask why our teachers, Doctors, Police etc continue to be some of the best paid in Europe!

Really? Because so far they've only had good things to say about Croke Park:

The IMF also reiterated its standard line that the proposed €3.5 billion in savings in the upcoming budget will help bring the deficit down significantly in 2013. The Fund also said that the Croke Park agreement is delivering the budgeted wage bill savings that it promised.

And:

The Croke Park Agreement has facilitated personnel reductions and efficiency savings, and has helped maintain the industrial peace needed to achieve broader reform goals. Continued monitoring of the adequacy of savings in the net pay and pensions bill, and of public service provision, is necessary. Deeper reforms in health and higher education are needed to identify service priorities and deliver them efficiently.

bluecode

It would take more than a single post on an internet forum to answer that question. But it has to be done at some point and the best people to do it are those on the inside. In any job the inefficiences are obvious to the people there. Not for me to suggest how they go about it.

kippy

bluecode wrote: »

It would take more than a single post on an internet forum to answer that question. But it has to be done at some point and the best people to do it are those on the inside. In any job the inefficiences are obvious to the people there. Not for me to suggest how they go about it.

I've a post on a similar thread outlining my own thoughts on it.
Those on the inside aren't going to want to see their wages cut.
Would you?

bluecode

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Really? Because so far they've only had good things to say about Croke Park

Based on figures supplied to them by the government most of whom have a vested interest in ensuring the Croke Park agreement stands for now.

I've heard of some of the so called savings. One springs to mind, working longer hours = greater productivity, right? Yes but only if more work is done. Not sitting around reading the paper or sending emails or posting on Boards.

Oh yes savings are being made, no doubt about it. But some are more notional than real. In the end more is needed and that cannot be delivered by the deal.

bluecode

kippy wrote: »

I've a post on a similar thread outlining my own thoughts on it.
Those on the inside aren't going to want to see their wages cut.
Would you?

No one would. But faced with no job or a pay cut. I know which I choose. Not only that I've been there. Working in the private sector during the so called 'Tiger' years. My pay actually dropped consistently from a not very high peak and eventually the job went. Others who elected to stay took further cuts. That was before the recession. Meanwhile the PS was benchmarked every year. I often wondered what 'benchmark' this was because it sure as hell wasn't the one they were using in the multinationals in this country.

Chips Lovell

So the government is cooking the books and lying to the IMF?

kippy

bluecode wrote: »

No one would. But faced with no job or a pay cut. I know which I choose. Not only that I've been there. Working in the private sector during the so called 'Tiger' years. My pay actually dropped consistently from a not very high peak and eventually the job went. Others who elected to stay took further cuts. That was before the recession. Meanwhile the PS was benchmarked every year. I often wondered what 'benchmark' this was because it sure as hell wasn't the one they were using in the multinationals in this country.

The benchmarking guidelines and reports are all public documents. Might be worth having a read of them. Again, there are links to a few on a similiar thread.
No one is being faced with no job or a pay cut in the public sector. Not compulsory anyway. Even if they were, you can bet your bottom dollar that the more protected of those, ie the ones there the longest would, given the option, go for head count cuts (as it wouldnt effect them) as opposed to pay cuts for all, including themselves.
The public shouldn't be calling be calling for a head count cut, a pay cut combined with some level of reorganisation of the sector to reduce the number of managers while increasing the number of front line staff would make more sense.
Cutting headcount is rarely done in a sensible way.

Sorry to hear of your job troubles by the way, I've been there myself in the past and it's not nice.

bluecode

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

So the government is cooking the books and lying to the IMF?

Governments telling lies? That never happens does it? Cooking the books? Never heard of such a thing.;)

Dishonesty among politicians? No, what a terrible thing to say.

Telling the absolute truth to the IMF/EU would be so out of character for an Irish politician that it's impossible to believe they're not telling them what they want to hear. No one here want to go down the same road as Greece.

Chips Lovell

bluecode wrote: »

Governments telling lies? That never happens does it? Cooking the books? Never heard of such a thing.;)

Dishonesty among politicians? No, what a terrible thing to say.

Telling the absolute truth to the IMF/EU would be so out of character for an Irish politician that it's impossible to believe they're not telling them what they want to hear. No one here want to go down the same road as Greece.

If you can substantiate that, I'm all ears. Otherwise, unfounded hypotheses aren't really useful in an informed discussion

WhatNowForUs?

gracehopper wrote: »

Why do we even have public sector unions?

They might have been required in order to protect people in the time of Connolly or Larkin but they are not much use to anyone now. you work for the government, then the government ARE your union. you get paid what the government say and if you don't like it, go work in the private sector.
I don't mean to sound like Maggie thatcher here but i'm trying to understand why we are paying increments when the government is attempting to cut services for people with disabilities. Take the Croke park agreement, rip it up and deal with the consequences. YOU ARE THE GOVERNMENT, STAND UP AND DEAL WITH THE PROBLEMS.

i feel so let down by the current spineless shower in Leinster house and part of me wishes the troika would just come in and sack half of the civil service. A big red pen through all the budgets. you can have 2/3's of your wages or off you go.

by the way, a parent and a sibling of mine work in the civil service, i'm not attacking the individuals, just the system.

Me often been described as a looney left would believe it or not agree with most of this post.
The problem I would have however is with the 'Big Red Pen'. We are seeing at the moment how this Red Pen is being used. Basic Needs are slashed and the Croke Park agreement is still in place.
I think we ourselves need to man up.

bobbysands81

The Croke Agreement has delivered and will continue to do so. Savings of billions are being realised.

It's time for others to step up to the plate. I've often heard it said that the top 300 earners in this country pay NO income tax, it's time for that to change.

Whilst Croke Park continues to deliver its time for a more equitable tax system that ensures that the richest and highest paid in this State pay the same (or an even higher) % of their income to the State that lower paid workers do.

At the same time as the Govts tactic of dividing and conquering public and private sector workers is ongoing (and working) the overwhelming majority of us are ignoring the fact that we are paying failed gamblers (bondholders) billions and billions of Euros instead of looking after our citizens.

bobbysands81

bluecode wrote: »

Spin it any way you want. There has to be cuts both in jobs and pay in all the public service. Right now they are protected by the ridiculous Croke Park agreement. The very last atrocity committed by FF before the left office.

This is not about attacking the people who work in the PS but simply facing the reality that as a whole it's too big, too inefficient and too well paid.

So we have the ridiculous farce of this government completely unable to do anything about 80% of the HSE budget which goes on pay and are spending their time cutting all the services to the most vulnerable in society like the disabled. Sure they rowed back on one measure but the money will still be cut only more creatively.

I saw on the news, a new teacher complaining that his pay is now much lower than for a teacher hired a couple of years ago. The implication of course is that his pay should be increased. The reality is that into the future all teachers pay will have to be reduced. The alternative is further damaging cuts to the education system.

People will simply have to accept the reality that the money is no longer there. The only thing propping up the entire PS is money given to us by the IMF/EU. Eventually they will turn around and ask why our teachers, Doctors, Police etc continue to be some of the best paid in Europe!

Really it's time for the PS unions to face reality, same with the Labour party. The cuts are coming whether you like it or not. Stop hiding behind the Croke Park agreement. It cannot and will not produce the savings needed.

You're ignoring the reality that there's already been pay cuts, pension levies etc...

What protection does the CPA give PS workers? The answer is NONE, there is no protection for us in it. It has ensured that this country has seen the largest ever pay cuts being implemented in any PS anywhere in the world with no industrial action... yet it's still not enough.

The cuts are not 'coming' as you put it, the cuts have already happened, are happening and will continue to happen.

In the meantime it's time for the Private Sector to deliver to the same extent that the Public Sector has.

Red_Wake

bobbysands81 wrote: »

The Croke Agreement has delivered and will continue to do so. Savings of billions are being realised.

It's time for others to step up to the plate. I've often heard it said that the top 300 earners in this country pay NO income tax, it's time for that to change.

Whilst Croke Park continues to deliver its time for a more equitable tax system that ensures that the richest and highest paid in this State pay the same (or an even higher) % of their income to the State that lower paid workers do.

At the same time as the Govts tactic of dividing and conquering public and private sector workers is ongoing (and working) the overwhelming majority of us are ignoring the fact that we are paying failed gamblers (bondholders) billions and billions of Euros instead of looking after our citizens.

Have you a source for this, or is this just a load of bollocks you heard in the pub?

pragmatic1

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Just let me get this straight... you think that something has got to give in relation to public sector unions who, during the biggest recession seen in this country, have overseen two large pay cuts for their members, tax increases, kept a lid on members even when there are daily incomprehensible hate-filled attacks on them, huge staff cuts, huge cuts in resources, greater accountability, 'doing more with less', the largest public sector cuts in any state, saved the economy BILLIONS etc... without any loss in services to the public and without ANY industrial unrest whatsoever, what's happening in this state is actually unprecedented... but you think 'something has to give?!'

God forbid what you'd think if Unions/Public Service were actually doing a bad job.

"without any loss in services to the public". What ****in planet are you living on. I've worked in both the public and private sectors, trust me you have it good.

woodoo

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Just let me get this straight... you think that something has got to give in relation to public sector unions who, during the biggest recession seen in this country, have overseen two large pay cuts for their members, tax increases, kept a lid on members even when there are daily incomprehensible hate-filled attacks on them, huge staff cuts, huge cuts in resources, greater accountability, 'doing more with less', the largest public sector cuts in any state, saved the economy BILLIONS etc... without any loss in services to the public and without ANY industrial unrest whatsoever, what's happening in this state is actually unprecedented... but you think 'something has to give?!'

God forbid what you'd think if Unions/Public Service were actually doing a bad job.

Absolutely, but its amazing when sections of the media never ever mention any good that has happened in the PS. People end up believing that nothing has changed at all. There is a paper out there that no self respecting public servant should ever buy again.

Rabidlamb

Collective bargaining is a joke.
I burst me bollix giving extra lessons after school & training the hurling team to earn the same as Patricia who phones it in all day & is out the door at 3pm.
All it does is bring standards down Patricia's level.
Even worse if I'm only in the door & see that fat lazy mare taking home twice my salary for 50% of the effort.

Japer

pragmatic1 wrote: »

I've worked in both the public and private sectors, trust me you have it good.

Yes, the public sector have much higher pay , pensions, more sickies ( on average ), better holidays ( on average ), shorter working hours ( on average ) than the private sector in this country.

What amazes me is how the IMF / troika allow the situation to exist where the public servants in Ireland are still paid so much more than the public servants in Germany, Holland, Britain, France etc.

The_Thing

woodoo wrote: »

.....There is a paper out there that no self respecting public servant should ever buy again.

I actually like seeing all those anguished, whiney headlines though. Every time you see one you can be sure that some begrudging journalist hack was almost in tears as he worked on the article.

Pkiernan

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You're ignoring the reality that there's already been pay cuts, pension levies etc...

What protection does the CPA give PS workers? The answer is NONE, there is no protection for us in it. It has ensured that this country has seen the largest ever pay cuts being implemented in any PS anywhere in the world with no industrial action... yet it's still not enough.

The cuts are not 'coming' as you put it, the cuts have already happened, are happening and will continue to happen.

In the meantime it's time for the Private Sector to deliver to the same extent that the Public Sector has.

Another left winger, sucking off the government teat...

With a username such as yours, I'd expect you to be patriotic, not just another beggar.

Japer

Patriotism is not something our public servants are reknown for, given each is taking on average €49,000 out of the public purse here. Public servants in the UK suck only half of that out of the UK taxpayers. Statistics show average public sector pay in UK is only £21.5k a year.

Scrap the CPA now, the country is bust. I'm fed up seeing / listening to some well paid public servants bragging about their holidays and mortgage free homes.

bobbysands81

Japer wrote: »

Patriotism is not something our public servants are reknown for, given each is taking on average €49,000 out of the public purse here. Public servants in the UK suck only half of that out of the UK taxpayers. Statistics show average public sector pay in UK is only £21.5k a year.

Scrap the CPA now, the country is bust. I'm fed up seeing / listening to some well paid public servants bragging about their holidays and mortgage free homes.

What has pay in other jurisdictions got to do with what's happening in Ireland? Comparisons are ridiculous and don't help your flawed logic in any way.

Comparing pay in public and private sectors is very difficult to do. There are no burger flippers in the public sector, public sector has far more professionals and is educated to a far higher standard than the average private sector worker.

Scrapping the CPA might fuel your bloodlust but it will ruin this country. The CPA is saving this country billions in unprecedented times with unprecedented pay cuts whilst many in the private sector have yet to play any meaningful part.

Holidays taken and houses paid off???!!! Are you for real???!!! I can only really talk about the Civil Service which employs approx 32,000 people with 60+% of them earning less than €40k whilst handing back more of the wages to the State than they would be if they were employed in private sector. Most civil servants I know are struggling with mortgages, shackled by negative equity and renegotiating with banks. The only holidays they know are 'mortgage holidays' or moratoriums from their mortgage.

And talking about patriotism... I've taken approx 20% hit (probably more) in my take home pay, every cent of this has gone back to the Exchequer to be redistributed to where it's needed most, a private sector worker who takes a pay cut pays even LESS tax than before as that money goes back into owners/shareholders pockets.

gracehopper

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

Me often been described as a looney left would believe it or not agree with most of this post.
The problem I would have however is with the 'Big Red Pen'. We are seeing at the moment how this Red Pen is being used. Basic Needs are slashed and the Croke Park agreement is still in place.
I think we ourselves need to man up.

Yeh me too. I would consider myself for left leaning than right, although some might disagree with me based on my post. As i get older i don't really know to be honest, this has always confused me, you can be liberal or conservative on different topics I think. You can be liberal on immigration but conservative on fiscal spending for example.

squod

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You're ignoring the reality that there's already been pay cuts, pension levies etc...

What protection does the CPA give PS workers? The answer is NONE, there is no protection for us in it. It has ensured that this country has seen the largest ever pay cuts being implemented in any PS anywhere in the world with no industrial action... yet it's still not enough.

The cuts are not 'coming' as you put it, the cuts have already happened, are happening and will continue to happen.

In the meantime it's time for the Private Sector to deliver to the same extent that the Public Sector has.

I don't have a problem with wages paid to PS workers. If you're get pay cuts and and can't afford it I sympathise.

My issue is entirely with the rididculous pension scheme operated by the PS for the PS.

Plenty of PS workers can afford their own pensions and should be cut off from subsidy by the citizen. There's a looming €200bn cost coming down the line. Where's that coming from? We're broke, thanks to those who voted for traitors.

PS penpushers should have 100% off their pensions cut. It's reality time.

con1982

As someone not involved in the public sector, i can't say either way if actual proper reform is happening. I work with a lot of people employed in the public sector and I have noticed a change in attitude since the boom. Phonecalls and emails are returned much quicker. People are more pro-active.

If reform is happening then I think we should stick with the Croke Park agreement, with the exception of increments (approx 250 million/yr).

Anyone who is directly employed by the state should not be getting a pay raise until the books are better balanced. Its not taking money away from people either. It's just not giving extra until we can afford to.

Surely this must be the most reasonable compromise.

Gurgle

Japer wrote: »

What amazes me is how the IMF / troika allow the situation to exist where the public servants in Ireland are still paid so much more than the public servants in Germany, Holland, Britain, France etc.

Things that amaze me:
1. That people think the IMF / Troika are calling the shots. They're not, they set the targets and its our government's job to find a way to meet them.

2. That people are still trotting out that tired old 'paid so much more' rubbish. Some positions get paid more, some less. The average is high here because there's too many 'senior admin' type positions not because the pay-scales are all out of whack.

3. That people think posting in bold makes something true.

Gurgle

Rabidlamb wrote: »

I burst me bollix giving extra lessons after school & training the hurling team to earn the same as Patricia who phones it in all day & is out the door at 3pm.

Is training the hurling team part of your job?
Why would you possibly think volunteering for the GAA has any bearing whatsoever on your effectiveness / efficiency / value for money as a teacher?

bobbysands81

con1982 wrote: »

As someone not involved in the public sector, i can't say either way if actual proper reform is happening. I work with a lot of people employed in the public sector and I have noticed a change in attitude since the boom. Phonecalls and emails are returned much quicker. People are more pro-active.

If reform is happening then I think we should stick with the Croke Park agreement, with the exception of increments (approx 250 million/yr).

Anyone who is directly employed by the state should not be getting a pay raise until the books are better balanced. Its not taking money away from people either. It's just not giving extra until we can afford too.

Surely this must be the most reasonable compromise.

Taking off my PS hat there's absolutely no doubt it's working. Any report into CPA shows the huge savings and reforms that are happening. Without the CPA there would be massive industrial action in the state that would cause untold economic damage and job losses in the private sector.

As for increments, I'm not sure people fully understand what these are. The highest increment,which for many takes 18 years to get to, is the agreed level of remuneration for doing a job that a worker receives. However, instead of handing over that amount in Year 1 it's agreed that commensurate with experience and satisfactory outputs and attendance a worker will slowly edge their way towards this amount.

As for it being a 'pay rise', you could argue that it is but even taking into account increments I've received my take home pay is down circa 20% over the last few years so I suppose it's how you look at it.

If on a Monday you have 20 apples and I take them all away without you agreeing to it, and then decide to give you 1 apple back on the Tuesday then it's facetious of me to start harping on about how lucky you are that I gave you 1 apple.

con1982

bobbysands81 wrote: »

If on a Monday you have 20 apples and I take them all away without you agreeing to it, and then decide to give you 1 apple back on the Tuesday then it's facetious of me to start harping on about how lucky you are that I gave you 1 apple.

Can you expand on the point above please? I don't follow it.

opti0nal

con1982 wrote: »

Can you expand on the point above please? I don't follow it.

Think of it this way: if you borrow money from the bank and agree to pay it back over a number of yeas, you can't plead inability to pay and expect to get away with it. A contract is a contract.

If the government reneges on employment contracts, quality people won't want to work for it directly. The government will be forced to deal with contracting companies who will protect their employees in return for a percentage and demand as much money as possible up front in case the government tries to get out of paying what was agreed.

bobbysands81

con1982 wrote: »

Can you expand on the point above please? I don't follow it.

My point is that commentators harp on about how much of a "pay rise" I get through an increment (1%), but even including the increment, my take home pay is down 20% in last few years. You'd almost swear that some commentators have it intentionally in for us.

kippy

bobbysands81 wrote: »

My point is that commentators harp on about how much of a "pay rise" I get through an increment (1%), but even including the increment, my take home pay is down 20% in last few years. You'd almost swear that some commentators have it intentionally in for us.

11% public sector pay cuts + 9% in additional taxes?

Japer

Public sector pay and pensions are still double what they were ten years ago.

The country simply cannot afford it.

kippy

Japer wrote: »

Public sector pay and pensions are still double what they were ten years ago.

The country simply cannot afford it.

You'd swear everything has remained stagnant since ten years ago.
Public sector pay is probably 100 times what it was 50 years ago.......

Mardy Bum

Gurgle wrote: »

Is training the hurling team part of your job?
Why would you possibly think volunteering for the GAA has any bearing whatsoever on your effectiveness / efficiency / value for money as a teacher?

If the teacher does not volunteer to train the school team it, no doubt, will be scraped and so depriving a vital extra curricular activity for a number of pupils. Teaching is not just about the classroom, there are other areas which need to be fostered and developed for teenagers and extra curricular activities serve this purpose but they do need teachers to volunteer to take these roles.

esf2012

Japer wrote: »

Public sector pay and pensions are still double what they were ten years ago.

And whats the comparison between a manager in McDonalds now to ten years ago? A lot more I think you will find. How about Dunnes? Penneys? I could go on.

As it takes 40 years for a civil servant to get a pension its impossible that the wage increases gained ten years ago would be having such an impact on pension payments yet.


PS workers were paid a pathetic wage and fought to get a decent one, every employee fights for more money out of their bosses and if you don't your a fool. Unions in every sector are supposed to fight for the worker, not for the customer and certainly not for the company.

End of the day every single person complaining here could have joined the civil service or tried for the Gardai or the fire brigade or trained to be a nurse, paramedic, etc but made their choices, probable based on the private sector paying far more during the boom.

5 years ago I would have had to pay a builder, sparks or plumber more than a days wage to do a few hours work. Now the tables have turned but I'm supposed to feel sorry about this? Did he feel sorry for me and give a reduction? Did he ****!

And in ten or twenty years the roles will have reversed again and I doubt very much all the the people complaining here will be calling up their local TD demanding equality for the poor Public sector worker down the road and I'm even more positive the PS worker wont be calling for you to be dragged back down but will instead be trying to climb up.

I made my choice, you made yours, live with it

Japer

esf2012 wrote: »

every single person complaining here could have joined the civil service

Not everyone in the country can work for the public service. Average public sectror pay here id double what it is in other European countries - no wonder the country is broke. Only in a fairytale world could every citizen in the state be paid an average of 49,000 a year by the government.

kippy

Japer wrote: »

Not everyone in the country can work for the public service. Average public sectror pay here id double what it is in other European countries - no wonder the country is broke. Only in a fairytale world could every citizen in the state be paid an average of 49,000 a year by the government.

Of course everyone cannot work in the public service. But if the grass is greener then move over......
And that goes both ways, there are plenty in the public sector that think things are great in the private sector, then get into it.

Double, in Every European country, really?

Bullseye1

granturismo wrote: »

Because we dont live in Syria, the USSR, China, 1970s Chile, El Salvador, Argentina etc where union membership wasnt available or maybe you were taken for a trip in a helicopter and dropped in the ocean

No we live in a much more corrupt country where there is no accountability in the public sector or the government.

Dockington

Mardy Bum wrote: »

If the teacher does not volunteer to train the school team it, no doubt, will be scraped and so depriving a vital extra curricular activity for a number of pupils. Teaching is not just about the classroom, there are other areas which need to be fostered and developed for teenagers and extra curricular activities serve this purpose but they do need teachers to volunteer to take these roles.

I couldnt agree more. Thankfully there are still a large number of teachers in this country who actually give a sh1t. Fair play to the previous poster who teaches and trains the school hurling team. This is extra time dedicated to the development of children which is not paid. Im not a teacher but I respect the job most teachers do and I certainly dont think that they are paid too much for the job they do.... of course there are some bad ones who shouldnt be in the job but that is the case in every job.

kippy

Bullseye1 wrote: »

No we live in a much more corrupt country where there is no accountability in the public sector or the government.

And why is that do you think?

byhookorbycrook

Japer wrote: »

Not everyone in the country can work for the public service. Average public sectror pay here id double what it is in other European countries - no wonder the country is broke. Only in a fairytale world could every citizen in the state be paid an average of 49,000 a year by the government.

Average pay for everyone is twice what it is in other countries.Don't single out the public service.

Japer

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Average pay for everyone is twice what it is in other countries.

only for those in the public sector

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

.Don't single out the public service.

the public service is paid by the taxpayer / government borrowing which will have to be repaid.

Dockington

I must say that my subjective opinion is that the problem largely lies in layers of bureaucracy in the civil service. It lies in the departments of state where the workers are not properly performance managed. While it is only anecdotal evidence, I have talked to nurses and teachers who tried to ring up their respective departments with queries and have been bounced from desk to desk to desk.

I have an immediate family member who lost his job because of an injury from a road accident (he has since set u his own business) and had to deal with the department of social welfare. He had so many problems with his claim getting sent from office to office and delay after delay. He was despondent just trying to get a simple disability claim sorted, and this was in 2004 when we were close to full employment.

Feel free to disagree but I truly believe from my own personal experience that most frontline public sector such as teachers, nurses, gardai, etc. do a good job and are fairly compensated or the job they do. In summary, I feel that the inefficiencies and cost saving that can be made in the public sector do not lie in wage cuts for front line staff; they lie in removing the layers of bureaucracy in the public sector and introducing true performance management in streamlined organisations. Some jobs may be lost at mid and higher levels but so be it.

For the record I am not a public sector employee

Japer

Dockington wrote: »

Feel free to disagree but I truly believe from my own personal experience that most frontline public sector such as teachers, nurses, gardai, etc. do a good job and are fairly compensated or the job they do.

ah shure you think public service pay derserves to be double south of the border compared to north of the border so? Our average of 49k compared with UK average of 21.5k?

kippy

Japer wrote: »

ah shure you think public service pay derserves to be double south of the border compared to north of the border so? Our average of 49k compared with UK average of 21.5k?

Does that UK average include the armed forces (out of interest)

Dockington

Japer wrote: »

ah shure you think public service pay derserves to be double south of the border compared to north of the border so? Our average of 49k compared with UK average of 21.5k?

To begin with I wouldn't look at average wages because, as another poster pointed out, this is skewed in ireland due to a large number of mid and upper management types on ridiculous wages. I think it would be better to compare similar jobs but again I dont think this is fair either without a full analysis of the costs which the individuals are likely to incur in each country.

I dont know what the situation is north of the border, or in the UK and I can only say what I know about the republic, the costs of running a car, renting a house or god forbid paying a mortgage, health insurance (which went up a huge amount this year), electricity and gas bills which are also on the rise, childcare, etc.

Therefore, I don't believe that wages are too high at the lower end, but are way too high at higher levels in the public sector. I also agree with other posters that the pay increments should be done away with until the countries finances are back on its feet.

Japer

Dockington wrote: »

To begin with I wouldn't look at average wages because, as another poster pointed out, this is skewed in ireland due to a large number of mid and upper management types on ridiculous wages.

simple solution, the cuts should ( and will ) start at the top. The current situation is unsustainable. Why should the public sectors in the countries which are bailing us out / lending us money pay their public servants so much less? If you were a taxpayer in those countries would you be happy?

kippy

Japer wrote: »

simple solution, the cuts should ( and will ) start at the top. The current situation is unsustainable. Why should the public sectors in the countries which are bailing us out / lending us money pay their public servants so much less? If you were a taxpayer in those countries would you be happy?

How often do you say the same thing?
Also, your figures relating to public sector earnings in the UK have been called as incorrect.
Care to address that?

Vizzy

Japer wrote: »

ah shure you think public service pay derserves to be double south of the border compared to north of the border so? Our average of 49k compared with UK average of 21.5k?

Are you not highlighting on another thread that PS pay is 30% higher here than in the UK.?

Which is it 30% or 100% ?

Japer

Vizzy wrote: »

Are you not highlighting on another thread that PS pay is 30% higher here than in the UK.?

Which is it 30% or 100% ?

different currencies ans different dates.

At the moment, Ireland's public sector pay structure is substantially higher than most other European countries and, on average, one-third higher than public sector workers in Britain. Latest comparable figures show that average British public service weekly earnings were €634 compared with the €913 paid to State employees here.http:

//www.independent.ie/national-news/1bn-pay-rise-bonanza-for-public-sector-2586377.html