Public Sector Unions

Salmon

Great, quote the indo! The Sun is probably a better standard rag!!

Japer

do not shoot the messenger. Fact is, as has been shown time and time again, "Ireland's public sector pay structure is substantially higher than most other European countries and, on average, one-third higher than public sector workers in Britain. Latest comparable figures show that average British public service weekly earnings were €634 compared with the €913 paid to State employees here"

check the figures with the relevant natioal statistics officies if you want. Or are you paranoid that they are against you too?

Vizzy

Japer wrote: »

different currencies ans different dates.

At the moment, Ireland's public sector pay structure is substantially higher than most other European countries and, on average, one-third higher than public sector workers in Britain. Latest comparable figures show that average British public service weekly earnings were €634 compared with the €913 paid to State employees here.http:

//www.independent.ie/national-news/1bn-pay-rise-bonanza-for-public-sector-2586377.html

TBH I wouldn't even read anything the INDO ( or SINDO) prints,
but even taking your figures €913 is a long way short of double €634.
And now you are saying that the PS here are " one-third higher than public sector workers in Britain"
Confused,com maybe?

Japer

depends on when the statistics were compiled and the exchange rate at the time. Also one figure I gave you as stg, yet you took it up as euro. Its you who is confused.

Fact is, our public service are way overpaid and overpensioned. full stop.

Mardy Bum

Japer wrote: »

Fact is, our public service are way overpaid and overpensioned. full stop.

Be careful with them generalisations before you knock someone out.

kippy

For the record Japer thinks that there should be AT LEAST another 40% cut of public sector wages and pensions.

Japer

kippy wrote: »

For the record Japer thinks that there should be AT LEAST another 40% cut of public sector wages and pensions.

yip, and even at that the government would still be spending a lot more on public sector pay and pensions than they were just 10 years ago.

And if the employees do not like it, fire them and employ people who would love it.

kippy

Japer wrote: »

yip, and even at that the government would still be spending a lot more on public sector pay and pensions than they were just 10 years ago.

And if the employees do not like it, fire them and employ people who would love it.

Japer, You spout that line that public sector pay and pensions are much more than they were just 10 years ago ad nausem without understanding it's complete lack of relevance.
The minimum wage and indeed social welfare have risen in similiar factors in the same period, and as for costs well, they just keep going up.

Japer

kippy wrote: »

Japer, You spout that line that public sector pay and pensions are much more than they were just 10 years ago ad nausem without understanding it's complete lack of relevance.
The minimum wage and indeed social welfare have risen in similiar factors in the same period, and as for costs well, they just keep going up.

cut "minimum wage and indeed social welfare" too so, and start a seperate thread on that if you want....but this thread is about the public service unions...who are primarily concerned about the pay and pensions of their members

twinQuins

Japer wrote: »

yip, and even at that the government would still be spending a lot more on public sector pay and pensions than they were just 10 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation

Knock yourself out.

Gurgle

Japer wrote: »

And if the employees do not like it, fire them and employ people who would love it.

Damn right, who needs these so-called 'professionals' anyway?

I'm not bringing my kids to casualty next time, an unemployed bricklayer who left school after the Junior cert will do the job just as well for half the money.

Japer

Gurgle wrote: »

Damn right, who needs these so-called 'professionals' anyway?
.

Given the country cannot affort to pay them 30% more that other countries do, we do not need the pay costs associated with them. The country is bust.

Gurgle

Japer wrote: »

Given the country cannot affort to pay them 30% more that other countries do, we do not need the pay costs associated with them. The country is bust.

I'd just like to correct some of the misconceptions evidenced in your post.

1. The country can afford to pay them
2. They are paid more than some countries, less than others. Pay is on a par with other countries at a similar level of development and political trajectory.
3. We need the services they provide so we need to pay them.
4. The country is not bust. Its a recession not the end of the world.

Otherwise, I agree with everything you said in this post.

We need efficiency in the provision of public services, not to cut them off altogether.

CruelCoin

joolsveer wrote: »

If trades unions are abolished we would go back to a time when bosses decided everything about the pay and conditions of the worker - payment in tokens etc. It would be an invitation to unscrupulous employers to really expoit their employees.

As an employer none of my staff are involved with trade unions.

We pay above industry average and they enjoy above average conditions, etc.

Frankly, you're spouting lies.

CruelCoin

preddy wrote: »

Sounds like another:

"Oh NO I chose the private sector job with great xmas bonuses, better wages and the actual chance of a promotion and times arnt so good anymore

Now I want that job like those guys that's secure."

Unions simply there to represent the thousands of workers in an organised fashion, biggest employer in the country u know this "government"

Even during boomtimes average private sector wages were below public sector.

Boombastic

No need for unions in this day and age with labour courts and minimum wage, unless they are fighting to keep unfair perks, for example the lazy feckers who think 34 hour week is a full weeks work and complain about having their time increased by three and 13 minutes a day


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/5000-council-staff-must-work-extra-time-3226240.html



I'm not too sure that many would notice if a lot of departments in the PS went on strike, passport office, medical card issuing office, social welfare office to name but a few have ridiculous waiting times as it and the lazy staff can hide behind the unions. If they put as much effort in to working as they do about their working conditions, the country would be a lot better off

Celticfire

You're right.... nobody noticed when the passport office was on their work to rule..... nobody....:rolleyes:

woodoo

Boombastic wrote: »

No need for unions in this day and age with labour courts and minimum wage, unless they are fighting to keep unfair perks, for example the lazy feckers who think 34 hour week is a full weeks work and complain about having their time increased by three and 13 minutes a day


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/5000-council-staff-must-work-extra-time-3226240.html



I'm not too sure that many would notice if a lot of departments in the PS went on strike, passport office, medical card issuing office, social welfare office to name but a few have ridiculous waiting times as it and the lazy staff can hide behind the unions. If they put as much effort in to working as they do about their working conditions, the country would be a lot better off

I think that is surprising. They should be doing the same working hours as the rest of the LA's. I don't understand why it hasn't been brought up to 35 hrs.

Gurgle

CruelCoin wrote: »

Even during boomtimes average private sector wages were below public sector.

So was the education level and age of the average private sector worker.

If you compare the average public sector worker to the average private sector worker of the same age, education and experience the private sector worker earns more.

Japer

I'd just like to correct some of your post....my replies are in red.

Gurgle wrote: »

1. The country can afford to pay them no it cannot - how many tens of billions of euro are we borrowing just to keep the lights on, is the lender of last resort ( the IMF ) here or not etc?

2. They are paid more than some countries, less than others. Name some of these countries so. Find just one country in the world whose average public sector pay exceeds ours. Pay is on a par with other countries at a similar level of development and political trajectory. How come our public sector pay is higher than all known developed countries eg USA, UK, Germany, all the European countries , Japan etc

3. We need the services they provide so we need to pay them.
Other countries need the services their public service provides but how come they do not need to pay them as much as we do ours?

4. The country is not bust. Its a recession not the end of the world.
I never said its the end of the world ....however the economic challenges our country is facing should not result in our public servants being the highest paid and pensioned in the known world. Cowen was higher paid than the President of the USA and paid double the salary of the British prime minister - do our top public servants deserve this level of pay?

Gurgle wrote: »

We need efficiency in the provision of public services, not to cut them off altogether.

Nobody claimed otherwise. Of course we need a public service - no normal society could survive without hospitals, schools, taxation, police, some sort of law and order etc.

Japer

Gurgle wrote: »

If you compare the average public sector worker to the average private sector worker of the same age, education and experience the private sector worker earns more.

Are you for real? Even security guards are paid a more in the public sector than in the private sector, and have better hours, holidays etc. At the other end of the education scale a survey recently found that architects in the private sector were earning only 52% of what their public sector counterparts earn.....and have suffered far more redundancies.

Gurgle

Japer wrote: »

Even security guards are paid a more in the public sector than in the private sector

architects in the private sector were earning only 52% of what their public sector counterparts earn

I don't suppose you can post a link to this survey?
Or anything to back up any of your claims?

CruelCoin

Gurgle wrote: »

So was the education level and age of the average private sector worker.

If you compare the average public sector worker to the average private sector worker of the same age, education and experience the private sector worker earns more.

Thats not telling the full story.

Lets say you have two tesco checkout workers, one private sector (Bob) and one public sector (Jim).

Jim has a degree while bob does not. This education difference does not change the fact they do the same bloody job. They both do work that does not require a degree, so the idea of paying extra to Jim because he holds a degree is laughable in this case.
You should be paid for the work you do, not the work you are able to do.
Public sector workers are paid more than their direct counterparts in the private sector on the false belief that holding a qualification automatically justifies an increase in pay.

sock puppet

CruelCoin wrote: »

You should be paid for the work you do, not the work you are able to do.
Public sector workers are paid more than their direct counterparts in the private sector on the false belief that holding a qualification automatically justifies an increase in pay.

Who are their direct counterparts?

CruelCoin

sock puppet wrote: »

Who are their direct counterparts?

Ok, poor example.

Change it to Jim being a secretary in a public office somewhere, getting coffee and bouncing phone calls.
Bob is also a secretary, but in a private company office, also getting coffee and bouncing calls.

In this case, a degree is not needed, so extra being paid for the qualification that goes unused is questionable at best.

Japer

Gurgle wrote: »

If you compare the average public sector worker to the average private sector worker of the same age, education and experience the private sector worker earns more.

I supplied you with links....have you a link for this or any of your outrageous claims?

Gurgle

CruelCoin wrote: »

Jim has a degree while bob does not. This education difference does not change the fact they do the same bloody job. They both do work that does not require a degree, so the idea of paying extra to Jim because he holds a degree is laughable in this case.

Yes, and this is the PS problem summed up nicely.

Clerical / Admin workers are paid based on qualifications, not for the work they're employed to do. They're promoted for having a better / higher qualification and for hanging around the office long enough.

This does not apply to doctors, teachers, nurses, gardaì etc.

CruelCoin

Japer wrote: »

I supplied you with links....have you a link for this or any of your outrageous claims?

And i need to provide links why?

my previous posts were as a rebuttal to the idea posted by Gurgle which stated that qualifications deserve extra pay.

No links are required to provide a rebuttal to someones logic.

GastroBoy

I read this thread as public sector "uniforms"......disappointing

Jimoslimos

gracehopper wrote: »

Ok, for fun, i'll have a go,

I'm not an economist, but i'd start by trying to win the support and obtain eventual agreements with first line services. not a Croke Park agreement, but a Parnell park agreement. That's a lot of people i know, but the nurses, the doctors, the guards and Fire would need to be preserved and where deserved have their wages increased. They would have to agree on process changes though. I'd concentrate on the people that are needed. Sounds idealistic but that's the first thing i'd attempt to do.

Front-line services, nurses, etc? A tad populist and no better than what the FF gov attempted with the CP agreement.

You're not concentrating on people that are 'needed', you're targeting those whose work you see in action on a day to day basis.

Gurgle

Japer wrote: »

I supplied you with links....have you a link for this or any of your outrageous claims?

I checked all 9 pages, the only link you posted was to a story in the indo about long service increments.

Wheres that survey about security guards and architects in the public sector?

TheDoc

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

There was a public sector pay cut in 2010. This was separate to the pension levy.

Wage cuts (2010):

• 5% on the first €30,000
• 7.5% on the next €40,000
• 10% on the next €55,000.
• 8% on total salary €125,000 to €165,000
• 12% on total salaries €165,000 to €200,000
• 15% on total salaries above €200,000

On top of this, new entrants to the public sector had a further 10 per cent taken off.

Croke Park came after that. It was agreed that there'd be no further pay cuts until 2014 in exchange for a reduction of numbers and changes in working practices..

This was one of the most important parts to which I feel hasn't been achieved and is good grounds to rip up the agreement. No one should be immune to pay cuts, no one should have a " a job for life".

From personal experience, with family members in the public sector, its an amazing eye opener compared to the private sector. In fairness most of the mad **** is from years ago and its a touch different now. One example being any member of An Post contracted before 1988 cannot be made redundant and only dismissed for gross misconduct.

The general practices and working processes in the public sector are horrendous and easily 5-10 years behind other nations and the private sector. What should take 1 person takes 4 in the public sector, its crazy ****.

And considering the only entity that undertook drastic changes was An Post, its easy to see why they are the only entity which turn over a profit ( although no longer state owned i believe)

Japer

Gurgle wrote: »

I checked all 9 pages, the only link you posted was to a story in the indo about long service increments.

Not true. For example I wrote in this very thread:
"At the moment, Ireland's public sector pay structure is substantially higher than most other European countries and, on average, one-third higher than public sector workers in Britain. Latest comparable figures show that average British public service weekly earnings were €634 compared with the €913 paid to State employees here.http:

//www.independent.ie/national-news/1bn-pay-rise-bonanza-for-public-sector-2586377.html "

Gurgle wrote: »

Wheres that survey about security guards and architects in the public sector?

In a different thread on the public service. Are you really surprised private sector architects earn much less than public sector architects, given that most architects in private practice are just hanging on by their fingernails, given the downturn in the construction industry in the past 4 years. The RIAI and indeed most architects will also tell you how many architects are out of work. Are you surprised by that? In contrast, look at public service architects, even those others employed in the planning departments;)

As regards security personnel, public sector employees in that area have unions and public sector rates of pay....due to competition etc many private security firms do not pay very well, or as well. Are you surprised at that too? If you google it maybe that survey will come up again too.

Incidentally, do you think it is sustainable that this IMF rescued state should have public sector weekly pay @ €913, while average British public service weekly earnings ( one of the places lending us money and which was / is the 2nd biggest contributer to EC funds after Germany ) are €634?

Gurgle

Japer wrote: »

Not true. For example I wrote in this very thread:
"At the moment, Ireland's public sector pay structure is substantially higher than most other European countries and, on average, one-third higher than public sector workers in Britain. Latest comparable figures show that average British public service weekly earnings were €634 compared with the €913 paid to State employees here.http:

//www.independent.ie/national-news/1bn-pay-rise-bonanza-for-public-sector-2586377.html "



In a different thread on the public service. Are you really surprised private sector architects earn much less than public sector architects, given that most architects in private practice are just hanging on by their fingernails, given the downturn in the construction industry in the past 4 years. The RIAI and indeed most architects will also tell you how many architects are out of work. Are you surprised by that? In contrast, look at public service architects, even those others employed in the planning departments;)

As regards security personnel, public sector employees in that area have unions and public sector rates of pay....due to competition etc many private security firms do not pay very well, or as well. Are you surprised at that too? If you google it maybe that survey will come up again too.

Incidentally, do you think it is sustainable that this IMF rescued state should have public sector weekly pay @ €913, while average British public service weekly earnings ( one of the places lending us money and which was / is the 2nd biggest contributer to EC funds after Germany ) are €634?

You don't even understand the terms 'link','report' or 'evidence' do you?
Anyway: Japer = Nonsense = Blocked.
I'm never going to see your username again

bobbysands81

Gurgle wrote: »

CruelCoin wrote: »

Jim has a degree while bob does not. This education difference does not change the fact they do the same bloody job. They both do work that does not require a degree, so the idea of paying extra to Jim because he holds a degree is laughable in this case.

Yes, and this is the PS problem summed up nicely.

Clerical / Admin workers are paid based on qualifications, not for the work they're employed to do. They're promoted for having a better / higher qualification and for hanging around the office long enough.

This does not apply to doctors, teachers, nurses, gardaì etc.

Nor does it apply to Civil Servants.

Quite soon we'll have run out of Public Servants to attach this gross generalisation to.

bobbysands81

TheDoc wrote: »

[QUOTE=Vladimir

This was one of the most important parts to which I feel hasn't been achieved and is good grounds to rip up the agreement. No one should be immune to pay cuts, no one should have a " a job for life".

Laughable! How do people get away with such ill informed comment? You're just peddling the mantra that appears in ill informed media.

There is no such thing as a job for life within the public service (not that I know of anyway and certainly not in the Civil Service). My take home pay is down about 20% over last few years yet you harp on that nobody should be immune to pay cuts?

If you really believed that then you'd be commenting on the huge amount of private sector workers who have remained completely untouched by this recession.

Gurgle

bobbysands81 wrote: »

the huge amount of private sector workers who have remained completely untouched by this recession.

Careful now there with the generalizations

Nobody is untouched, no matter how well they're doing.

Since the recession started, my gross pay has gone up by 30% while my net pay hasn't moved. Every payrise I've got in the last 5 years has been cancelled out by increased taxation.

Red_Wake

bobbysands81 wrote: »

TheDoc wrote: »

If you really believed that then you'd be commenting on the huge amount of private sector workers who have remained completely untouched by this recession.

Nowt wrong with them mate.

bobbysands81

Gurgle wrote: »

Careful now there with the generalizations

Nobody is untouched, no matter how well they're doing.

Since the recession started, my gross pay has gone up by 30% while my net pay hasn't moved. Every payrise I've got in the last 5 years has been cancelled out by increased taxation.

Fair point.

kippy

Gurgle wrote: »

Careful now there with the generalizations

Nobody is untouched, no matter how well they're doing.

Since the recession started, my gross pay has gone up by 30% while my net pay hasn't moved. Every payrise I've got in the last 5 years has been cancelled out by increased taxation.

Yeah, of course private sector workers have been hit hard as well some getting away better than others but such is life.


I'm not sure of your tax arrangements btw but an increase in 30% in the taxes you end up paying seems exceptionally high.

Milk & Honey

bobbysands81 wrote: »

TheDoc wrote: »

There is no such thing as a job for life within the public service (not that I know of anyway and certainly not in the Civil Service).

That is only because there is a minimum age for entry and a mandatory retirement age. Once in, a person can stay until retirement age. No one is ever sacked unless they have been caught committing fraud.

martingriff

bobbysands81 wrote: »

The Croke Agreement has delivered and will continue to do so. Savings of billions are being realised.

It's time for others to step up to the plate. I've often heard it said that the top 300 earners in this country pay NO income tax, it's time for that to change.

Whilst Croke Park continues to deliver its time for a more equitable tax system that ensures that the richest and highest paid in this State pay the same (or an even higher) % of their income to the State that lower paid workers do.

At the same time as the Govts tactic of dividing and conquering public and private sector workers is ongoing (and working) the overwhelming majority of us are ignoring the fact that we are paying failed gamblers (bondholders) billions and billions of Euros instead of looking after our citizens.

I am guessing your a public servant like myself but I dont agree with you. Yes there has been some saving in Croke Park and it protects the lowest paid HOWEVER it also protects the highest paid there conditions and allowances. We saw when there was the cuts in pay in 2010 the HIGHER paid gave out that there bonuses and allowances were permanent pay and as some had gone then there cut should not be so big. This was due to a court case against the goverment on if they were part of there basic pay (would like to know how hard the goverment fought in that case. I mean in the HSE they have to cut other stuff as they cant touch pay and conditions.

People have left yes but that is due to retirement and it has causes chaos in certain area as more go from one place then others.

Yes there is a bit of them versus us but the public sector do it 2 as more as the private sector workers. NOBODY and I mean NOBODY has forgotten what we are paying.

martingriff

Japer wrote: »

simple solution, the cuts should ( and will ) start at the top. The current situation is unsustainable. Why should the public sectors in the countries which are bailing us out / lending us money pay their public servants so much less? If you were a taxpayer in those countries would you be happy?

Thanks for the laugh. I really appreciate it. You really think the goverment will start by slashing the pay of themselves and the middle and upper management most who they depend on to give them suff and answers

Boombastic

They could start cutting wages of those processing the fis, apply now, get processed after christmas,,wtf?

Technocentral

Gurgle wrote: »

Damn right, who needs these so-called 'professionals' anyway?

I'm not bringing my kids to casualty next time, an unemployed bricklayer who left school after the Junior cert will do the job just as well for half the money.

These "professionals" get about twice as much in wages and benefits as their equivalents in other European countries, its not sustainable, its not about going to bricklayers its about nurses and teachers etc getting off their high horses and getting realistic wages.

Japer

martingriff wrote: »

You really think the goverment will start by slashing the pay of themselves and the middle and upper management...

eventually the IMF will cop on that government spending here is still way too high. If you were a taxpayer in those countries bailing us out, would you be happy our public servants are paid and pensioned so much more than their own public servants? Is that sustainable? No. A few years ago our brainy alcoholic waster Brian Cowen paid himself more per year than the leader of the free world, the President of the USa, more than the p.m.'s of UK or France or Germany.....

kippy

Japer wrote: »

eventually the IMF will cop on that government spending here is still way too high. If you were a taxpayer in those countries bailing us out, would you be happy our public servants are paid and pensioned so much more than their own public servants? Is that sustainable? No. A few years ago our brainy alcoholic waster Brian Cowen paid himself more per year than the leader of the free world, the President of the USa, more than the p.m.'s of UK or France or Germany.....

The IMF and indeed the EU etc seem satisfied at the moment that things are okay in that regard. Perhaps they see the bigger picture, as they have access to all the figures.

I have no doubt that at some stage there will be another cut in public service pay (one way or the other) however it is unlikely that it will be of the magnitude that yourself or others appear to think it will.

kippy

Technocentral wrote: »

These "professionals" get about twice as much in wages and benefits as their equivalents in other European countries, its not sustainable, its not about going to bricklayers its about nurses and teachers etc getting off their high horses and getting realistic wages.

What's a realistic wage for a primary school teacher with 15 years of experience?

Gloomtastic!

kippy wrote: »

Technocentral wrote: »

These "professionals" get about twice as much in wages and benefits as their equivalents in other European countries, its not sustainable, its not about going to bricklayers its about nurses and teachers etc getting off their high horses and getting realistic wages.

What's a realistic wage for a primary school teacher with 15 years of experience?

36 weeks work at €1000 per week.

kippy

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

36 weeks work at €1000 per week.

36K a year.

And a newly qualified primary school teacher?