Abortion

tomtherobot

Now, normally i stay away from abortion debates because i find they're full of extremist types but this morning, i found the country's favorite moral crusader aka Ray D'arcy, preaching on about the rights of women who've had abortions. This led me to the conclusion that there's a general consensus these days that abortion is now acceptable to the majority (ok not just this alone), but if this is the case, i think it raises two issues going forward (as they say)

Firstly, maintenance payments for children? How can a society, or individual, who supports a woman's exclusive right to chose to have an abortion at the same time come to fathers with the paw out looking for money to support children. If a father has no choice whether the child is alive or not how can he be demanded to support that child? Makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Secondly, the Ray D'arcy show this morning was talking about counseling for women after abortion. Seemingly the HSE already pays for this. I can't understand how state support for counseling for women who've had abortions is justified. On one side of the debate, pro abortionists say it's a procedure to remove a physical growth which isn't alive. If that's the case why the need for counseling? On the other side, anti-abortionists say it's murder, so why would the state be counseling murderers? Did I miss something, do we not still have old folk being left to rot on trolleys, surely the HSE has greater priorities now than counseling women who've chose to have an abortion.

As you may have guessed, i'm anti-abortion. I'm not religious I just believe that an unborn child is alive. Why else would people mourn the loss of unborn or stillborn children? Or require counseling after 'terminating' one? Given that i believe that an unborn child is alive I think killing one is wrong and cannot be justified above the social or material needs of the parent(s). No more or less than i think it would be ok to kill your elderly parents just because they don't suit where you are in you're life right now.....

charlietheminxx

Because there aren't enough abortions threads right now....

inforfun

Maybe they need the counseling for the reason of the abortion?

AnonoBoy

Ray D'Arcy doesn't speak for the country.

seamus

tomtherobot wrote: »

Did I miss something, do we not still have old folk being left to rot on trolleys, surely the HSE has greater priorities now than counseling women who've chose to have an abortion.

Why can't we do both? Do counselling services occupy beds in hospitals? Nope.

If someone requires assistance in the form of counselling, is there ever any justification for turning around and saying, "Fnck you, you made your bed now lie in it"?

Tell you what, from now on everyone who presents at A&E will be assessed as to whether it was their own fault or a genuine accident. Heart attack? Tough ****, you're fat, it's your fault, go home.
Overdose? Haha, you're joking right, get out of my hospital.

Always puzzles me how so many people claim to oppose abortion on the basis of life, yet show very little humanity for those who actually are alive.

mrbango

OP are you against abortions even in the extreme cases we have seen in the national news in the past? And as pointed out the counselling provided by the hse may be for ladies who have had abortions but maybe/probably is for women who have gone through more than the abortion.

davet82

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Ray D'Arcy doesn't speak for the country.

not yet anyways...


:rolleyes:

ballsymchugh

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Ray D'Arcy doesn't speak for the country.

needs counselling though.

Nodin

tomtherobot wrote: »

Now, normally i (.......)right now.....

Well, one of the reasons they may need counselling is because of your kind of attitude.

AnonoBoy

davet82 wrote: »

not yet anyways...


:rolleyes:

Is he planning a military coup? :eek:

AnonoBoy

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Ray D'Arcy doesn't speak for the country.

He couldn't even speak for Zig & Zag.

dodderangler

Ffs another abortion thread
I say we should abort these threads!!!

Nodin

dodderangler wrote: »

Ffs another abortion thread
I say we should abort these threads!!!

....but only in the first five weeks, otherwise its threadacide.

Alactric

dodderangler wrote: »

Ffs another abortion thread
I say we should abort these threads!!!

We have a winner. Move on, nothin' to see here folks.

Dravokivich

tomtherobot wrote: »

As you may have guessed, i'm anti-abortion. I'm not religious I just believe that an unborn child is alive. Why else would people mourn the loss of unborn or stillborn children? Or require counseling after 'terminating' one?

Because there are a lot of factors that can contribute to making it a stressful time for those involved. One of which would be the opinion that it is constantly portrayed through advertisements damning those who have underwent abortions. Your commentary in your OP is also a smack in the face to'em.

Most people who are pro-choice and who may consider using services such as abortion don't consider it as "Discarding an inanimate object" as you've made it out to sound. There are issues such as rape / illness / whatever I'm not in a position to think of right now that would justify terminating a pregnancy. Currently we ship'em off elsewhere to deal with it. The lack of support avail here in itself is down right shameful. Counselling is the least of what's required. The social stigma needs a swift kick in the bollox.

tomtherobot

inforfun wrote: »

Maybe they need the counseling for the reason of the abortion?

seamus wrote: »

If someone requires assistance in the form of counselling, is there ever any justification for turning around and saying, "Fnck you, you made your bed now lie in it"?

mrbango wrote: »

maybe/probably is for women who have gone through more than the abortion.

I've no problem with people going for counseling because they have a problem, had something bad done to them, made a mistake but if you're specifically looking for post-abortion counseling, surely this has to come with an acknowledgement that abortion itself is a problem.

Some people seem to see abortion as no more than another form of contraception. Why would this require counseling?

Nodin wrote: »

Well, one of the reasons they may need counselling is because of your kind of attitude.

I think they have a little more to worry about than my attitude. I don't have any innocent unborn child blood on my hands. I would have sympathy for people who had an abortion because they we're duped by the pro-abortion propaganda but who afterwards realise what they've done. That must be awful.

Micky Dolenz

Mod


Was going to merge it into a similar thread but I can't find it.

*whistles*

Nodin

tomtherobot wrote: »

........


I think they have a little more to worry about than my attitude. I don't have any innocent unborn child blood on my hands. I would have sympathy for people who had an abortion because they we're duped by the pro-abortion propaganda but who afterwards realise what they've done. That must be awful.

(my bold)

Like I said, your attitude is part of the problem.

seamus

tomtherobot wrote: »

I've no problem with people going for counseling because they have a problem, had something bad done to them, made a mistake but if you're specifically looking for post-abortion counseling, surely this has to come with an acknowledgement that abortion itself is a problem.

People who provide living donations of organs such as kidneys often undergo a great deal of counselling and other such assistance to help them with the stress and emotional trauma of the process.
Many women require post-natal counselling to assist them in getting over the child birth process.
Surely this means that we must acknowledge that childbirth and living donations are a "problem".

Some people seem to see abortion as no more than another form of contraception. Why would this require counseling?

It wouldn't - for those people. For everyone else, it might.

You seem to be suggesting that everyone who gets an abortion or who supports abortion thinks nothing of it. You're wrong.

Just because a procedure may include mental or emotional trauma, doesn't mean it's inherently wrong or inadvisable.

Professey Chin

tomtherobot wrote: »

I think they have a little more to worry about than my attitude. I don't have any innocent unborn child blood on my hands.I would have sympathy for people who had an abortion because they we're duped by the pro-abortion propaganda but who afterwards realise what they've done. That must be awful.

Or heres a better idea. Stay the fuck out of other peoples business and let them to their own choices instead of claiming propaganda when youre full of it yourself.

davet82

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Is he planning a military coup? :eek:

yes he is :pac:

eviltwin

tomtherobot wrote: »

I've no problem with people going for counseling because they have a problem, had something bad done to them, made a mistake but if you're specifically looking for post-abortion counseling, surely this has to come with an acknowledgement that abortion itself is a problem.

Some people seem to see abortion as no more than another form of contraception. Why would this require counseling?



I think they have a little more to worry about than my attitude. I don't have any innocent unborn child blood on my hands. I would have sympathy for people who had an abortion because they we're duped by the pro-abortion propaganda but who afterwards realise what they've done. That must be awful.

Post abortion counselling - in fact any kind of counselling - can actually save us money long term. Better to deal with the problem in the short term than have a woman or man who is affected by it end up needing serious care in the future at the states expense

I can only speak for myself - I had counselling after an abortion but in the USA. I felt a mix of things, sadness, guilt, I lost friends over it and that was an issue, I was unsure if I had made the right decision...I was just confused really and it helped me a great deal. I started the counselling about 18 months after the abortion and at that stage I was in a very bad place, I was suicidal and had just had a breakdown. I managed to get the help I needed thanks to a wonderful husband and a good friend and I'm now doing great. If I hadn't got it who knows where I would have ended up.

Fair enough if you are pro life, I have nothing against anyone who is, but don't make things harder for people who are suffering when they need help the most.

tomtherobot

Dravokivich wrote: »

Most people who are pro-choice and who may consider using services such as abortion don't consider it as "Discarding an inanimate object" as you've made it out to sound. There are issues such as rape / illness / whatever I'm not in a position to think of right now that would justify terminating a pregnancy. Currently we ship'em off elsewhere to deal with it. The lack of support avail here in itself is down right shameful. Counselling is the least of what's required. The social stigma needs a swift kick in the bollox.

By pro-choice i take it you mean pro-having an abortion choice and not pro-sex with children choice or pro-exterminate the disabled choice? Because calling something pro-choice on it's own just kinda makes it sound ok, we all love choice right?

I can't see the rape/illness justification. I mean when it comes to other forms of killing I can see a self-defence justification. But what did the unborn child do, did it commit the rape, cause the illness? If you take it that an unborn child is alive i don't see these as justifications but please explain where they might be?

LizT

tomtherobot wrote: »

By pro-choice i take it you mean pro-having an abortion choice and not pro-sex with children choice or pro-exterminate the disabled choice? Because calling something pro-choice on it's own just kinda makes it sound ok, we all love choice right?

I can't see the rape/illness justification. I mean when it comes to other forms of killing I can see a self-defence justification. But what did the unborn child do, did it commit the rape, cause the illness? If you take it that an unborn child is alive i don't see these as justifications but please explain where they might be?

Please don't be so pedantic. Pro choice is widely acknowledged and recognised as the term used for those in favour of a woman's right to choose to have an abortion. It's not about making abortion 'sound ok', it's the term used. Don't make it into an issue when it's not.

humanji

tomtherobot wrote: »

By pro-choice i take it you mean pro-having an abortion choice and not pro-sex with children choice or pro-exterminate the disabled choice? Because calling something pro-choice on it's own just kinda makes it sound ok, we all love choice right?

I can't see the rape/illness justification. I mean when it comes to other forms of killing I can see a self-defence justification. But what did the unborn child do, did it commit the rape, cause the illness? If you take it that an unborn child is alive i don't see these as justifications but please explain where they might be?

And if you don't take it that the unborn child is alive?

tomtherobot

seamus wrote: »

People who provide living donations of organs such as kidneys often undergo a great deal of counselling and other such assistance to help them with the stress and emotional trauma of the process.
Many women require post-natal counselling to assist them in getting over the child birth process.
Surely this means that we must acknowledge that childbirth and living donations are a "problem".

I can't see these as valid comparisons? Surely part of the pro abortion argument is that it's a run of the mill procedure, just a tiny little bunch of lifeless cells, not camparable to a kidney or major organ or an actual alive child?

LizT

tomtherobot wrote: »

I can't see these as valid comparisons? Surely part of the pro abortion argument is that it's a run of the mill procedure, just a tiny little bunch of lifeless cells, not camparable to a kidney or major organ or an actual alive child?

I don't think many pro choice people would argue that abortion is a run of the mill procedure.

humanji

tomtherobot wrote: »

I can't see these as valid comparisons? Surely part of the pro abortion argument is that it's a run of the mill procedure, just a tiny little bunch of lifeless cells, not camparable to a kidney or major organ or an actual alive child?

Who, in the name of Bono's left one, has every said abortion was a run of the mill procedure?

seamus

tomtherobot wrote: »

Surely part of the pro abortion argument is that it's a run of the mill procedure

I've no idea where you got that impression.

Nodin

tomtherobot wrote: »

............
I can't see the rape/illness justification. I mean when it comes to other forms of killing I can see a self-defence justification. But what did the unborn child do, did it commit the rape, cause the illness? If you take it that an unborn child is alive i don't see these as justifications but please explain where they might be?

You don't know the argument for abortion in the case of rape? Really?

tomtherobot

LizT wrote: »

I don't think many pro choice people would argue that abortion is a run of the mill procedure.

humanji wrote: »

Who, in the name of Bono's left one, has every said abortion was a run of the mill procedure?

seamus wrote: »

I've no idea where you got that impression.

Ok so what is it then? Pro - abortionists say it's not a child? It's not a major organ? Sp what is it? Why the need for counseling if you have one removed/murdered?

Feeona

tomtherobot wrote: »

Now, normally i stay away from abortion debates because i find they're full of nazi fembots or holy joe types

I stopped reading here. Any argument which involves dismissing other opinions in the first breath is an argument stemming from a feeling of helplessness and annoyance rather than logic.

eviltwin

tomtherobot wrote: »

Ok so what is it then? Pro - abortionists say it's not a child? It's not a major organ? Sp what is it? Why the need for counseling if you have one removed/murdered?

We could explain but I have a feeling you still wouldn't get it Why does anyone need counselling? Its as different as the individual, everyone has their own reasons for wanting or needing it.

I don't know why you would begrudge anyone the support they need, we give all sorts of people counselling for "self inflicted" issues because we recognise the need for prevention. We have enough of a problem in this country as is with mental illness, depression, suicide etc. I think punishing someone for a decision you disagree with by taking away a support is insane, some of the most pro-life people I know fully support the work of the post abortion services.

LizT

tomtherobot wrote: »

Ok so what is it then? Pro - abortionists say it's not a child? It's not a major organ? Sp what is it? Why the need for counseling if you have one removed/murdered?

Your tone is very flippant.

I would argue that it's not a child. Doesn't mean that an abortion is a 'run of the mill procedure'. To me, getting bloods taken is a run of the mill procedure. To compare abortion to that is frankly ridiculous and insulting.

There's a need for counselling because, believe it or not, abortion is a traumatic procedure for those who undergo it.

tomtherobot

Feeona wrote: »

I stopped reading here. Any argument which involves dismissing other opinions in the first breath is an argument stemming from a feeling of helplessness and annoyance rather than logic.

Ah come on we all know there's well drawn, well covered ideological lines drawn in the abortion debate. I didn't dismiss you're opinions by any chance?

Dravokivich

tomtherobot wrote: »

By pro-choice i take it you mean pro-having an abortion choice and not pro-sex with children choice or pro-exterminate the disabled choice? Because calling something pro-choice on it's own just kinda makes it sound ok, we all love choice right?

I can't see the rape/illness justification. I mean when it comes to other forms of killing I can see a self-defence justification. But what did the unborn child do, did it commit the rape, cause the illness? If you take it that an unborn child is alive i don't see these as justifications but please explain where they might be?

Of course, the pro-sex with children choice is one I fully endorse. :rolleyes:



Sorry if my post about your inability to acknowledge how abortion an be a traumatic incident confused you...

Skylinehead

tomtherobot wrote: »

By pro-choice i take it you mean pro-having an abortion choice and not pro-sex with children choice or pro-exterminate the disabled choice? Because calling something pro-choice on it's own just kinda makes it sound ok, we all love choice right?

I can't see the rape/illness justification. I mean when it comes to other forms of killing I can see a self-defence justification. But what did the unborn child do, did it commit the rape, cause the illness? If you take it that an unborn child is alive i don't see these as justifications but please explain where they might be?

Why should the mother have to bring up the rapists child? Or suffer because of illness when it's easily preventable? Or even possibly die in childbirth?

And stop with the dismissive, 'I'm right you're wrong' tone, or you won't last long here.

tomtherobot

LizT wrote: »

Your tone is very flippant.

My tone is flippant because i think abortion is killing. Killing happens all the time, it's horrible, it's wrong but it happens. I don't think abortion is any special type of killing to be given special treatment.

eviltwin

tomtherobot wrote: »

My tone is flippant because i think abortion is killing. Killing happens all the time, it's horrible, it's wrong but it happens. I don't think abortion is any special type of killing to be given special treatment.

So do you want to punish women by denying them help they might badly need?

seamus

tomtherobot wrote: »

Why the need for counseling if you have one removed/murdered?

How about you ask the people who are having abortions why they need the counselling?

Each individual's needs differ. Some may feel that they have destroyed a life but that a child wasn't right for them at the time.
Some may feel conflicted because the child was conceived as a result of rape but they don't know if they've made the right decision.
Others may have no specific difficulty with what they've done, but still require some assistance squaring it against their upbringing, etc.

There is no one blanket reason why someone may require counselling after an abortion. The vast majority of women who obtain abortions do not seek counselling and go live their lives. A small proportion of people do.

But then a small proportion of women also require counselling after they give birth. A small proportion of people also require counselling after they have consensual sex for the first time.

Individuals' needs in relation to mental health differ. You can't say that anything is "bad" because a small amount of people may seek help afterwards.

tomtherobot

Just to clarify, I can see why abortion is traumatic. If you kill somebody it will be traumatic.

What I can't understand is why pro-abortionists, who say that it isn't killing, still say that counseling is required?

Nodin

tomtherobot wrote: »

My tone is flippant because i think abortion is killing. ......

That makes perfect sense allright.

tomtherobot wrote: »

Killing happens all the time, it's horrible, it's wrong but it happens.

...and is legal in certain circumstances.

Chuck Stone

OP didn't come here to have a discussion. He came here to soap box.

Probably one of the most false dichotomy laden OP's I've read in a while.

Nazi fembots v Holy Joes

Pro-abortionists* v anti-abortionist.

Counselling v condemnation.

Abortion is no different to killing elderly Parents.

GTFO.


*I don't think there is anyone who would describe themselves as pro-abortion. Pro-choice =/= pro abortion.

Nodin

tomtherobot wrote: »

Just to clarify, I can see why abortion is traumatic. If you kill somebody it will be traumatic.

What I can't understand is why pro-abortionists, who say that it isn't killing, still say that counseling is required?

Things other than killing can be traumatic. There's a hole in your argument the size of a truck.

Wompa1

LizT wrote: »

Please don't be so pedantic. Pro choice is widely acknowledged and recognised as the term used for those in favour of a woman's right to choose to have an abortion. It's not about making abortion 'sound ok', it's the term used. Don't make it into an issue when it's not.

Actually I heard an interesting point on a radio show before. Who started calling it Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life? Surely it should be called Pro-Abortion vs Anti-Abortion. Just call it as it is rather than glorifying either position.

leeomurchu

Great another abortion thread just what boards needs.

Mods just close it now before the verbal attacks begin :eek:

pro or anti abortion I'm sure everyone is pro choice

meoklmrk91

tomtherobot wrote: »

Now, normally i stay away from abortion debates because i find they're full of nazi fembots or holy joe types but this morning, i found the country's favorite moral crusader aka Ray D'arcy, preaching on about the rights of women who've had abortions. This led me to the conclusion that there's a general consensus these days that abortion is now acceptable to the majority (ok not just this alone), but if this is the case, i think it raises two issues going forward (as they say)

Firstly, maintenance payments for children? How can a society, or individual, who supports a woman's exclusive right to chose to have an abortion at the same time come to fathers with the paw out looking for money to support children. If a father has no choice whether the child is alive or not how can he be demanded to support that child? Makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Secondly, the Ray D'arcy show this morning was talking about counseling for women after abortion. Seemingly the HSE already pays for this. I can't understand how state support for counseling for women who've had abortions is justified. On one side of the debate, pro abortionists say it's a procedure to remove a physical growth which isn't alive. If that's the case why the need for counseling? On the other side, anti-abortionists say it's murder, so why would the state be counseling murderers? Did I miss something, do we not still have old folk being left to rot on trolleys, surely the HSE has greater priorities now than counseling women who've chose to have an abortion.

As you may have guessed, i'm anti-abortion. I'm not religious I just believe that an unborn child is alive. Why else would people mourn the loss of unborn or stillborn children? Or require counseling after 'terminating' one? Given that i believe that an unborn child is alive I think killing one is wrong and cannot be justified above the social or material needs of the parent(s). No more or less than i think it would be ok to kill your elderly parents just because they don't suit where you are in you're life right now.....

Firstly the whole maintenance issue, I know a couple of people who have been through abortions, both were couples who had been together for long time and had children already, they decided as a couple that it was the right decision for them for their own different reasons, I don't know someone who was asked to abort their child by their partner as he felt the child was the result of infidelity, she agreed and had the pregnancy not been gone too far that child would not be here today.

These are just personal stories but I am sure there are women out there who go and have abortions against their partners will but the same is also true vice versa. And in others a couple decides that it is what is best for them. Abortion is not something the vast majority of people enter into lightly is usually a last resort that is serving everyone, including the unborn child's best interests. Anyone who parents a child be they man/woman and whether the child is wanted or unwanted by them should at the very least contribute financially to their offspring, the above stories demonstrate that men in my experience atleast do have a say in their partners going or not going for abortions.

As has been mentioned people who donate organs get counselling. Counselling services should be available for everyone, even if you count people who have abortions as murders then would you deny someone who was in prison for manslaughter or even murder counselling services?

My personal belief is that it is a very difficult decision. I would require counselling if I ever went for an abortion because while I do not count a foetus which is not viable out the womb as a child, I count is as the chance at such and that would be the loss for me. The reason I am pro abortion is I believe that nobody should be forced to have a child that they do not want, not even so much so for the parent as the child itself, while many will of course love their children anyway some may be aware that they do not have what it takes to be a parent, in this situation it is just the child that suffers. I know a y that fosters children, they have 3 kids born to the same mother and each and every one of them was born addicted to heroin, one has to ask would they have been better off not being born, now they will spend their lives in foster care, having the listing effects of being brought into the world this way.

Some people just should not be parents and more importantly no child should have to suffer because of this.

Alactric

tomtherobot wrote: »

My tone is flippant because i think abortion is killing. Killing happens all the time, it's horrible, it's wrong but it happens. I don't think abortion is any special type of killing to be given special treatment.

Honest question OP, as you're clearly quite serious.

Why did you choose After Hours for this? After hours has been inundated with them lately, and they all turn into the usual stuff. If your looking for some kind of serious discourse there are far better places for it.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1431
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=333
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=99

Your tone definitely doesn't come off well, especially for this type of argument. It's just hard to know what to make of you tbh.

LizT

Wompa1 wrote: »

Actually I heard an interesting point on a radio show before. Who started calling it Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life? Surely it should be called Pro-Abortion vs Anti-Abortion. Just call it as it is rather than glorifying either position.

I would consider myself to be pro choice but not necessarily pro abortion. There's a difference.

tomtherobot

Nodin wrote: »

Things other than killing can be traumatic. There's a hole in your argument the size of a truck.

Please explain to me what it is about abortion that is traumatic, if it's not killing? I'm sorry I can't see it? If you're pro-abortion surely you saying that a life isn't being destroyed.

Are some people here saying that abortion is killing, but it's justified. How so? The only justified killing I know of is self-defense? I don't see how that applies.

Skylinehead

Wompa1 wrote: »

Actually I heard an interesting point on a radio show before. Who started calling it Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life? Surely it should be called Pro-Abortion vs Anti-Abortion. Just call it as it is rather than glorifying either position.

Pro-abortion basically means you are in favour of abortions (abortions for all! :pac:), whereas pro-choice means you are in favour of the woman having the choice of keeping the child or abortion. Anti-abortion is pretty much the same as pro-life.