Abortion

eviltwin

Sponge25 wrote: »

Would you let it happen again? Just out curiosity? if it wasn't a medical emergency etc?

Its hard to say. If I was pregnant with a baby that was a result of rape then probably yes, if the baby was destined to die after birth then probably yes.

My life is on an even keel now so an unplanned pregnancy wouldn't be a disaster. But if it changed and we were back were we were a few years ago then yeah I might. I don't know. I was very depressed and suicidal after it. I think that would be what would be the thing that would stop me. I don't want to go back to those dark days again.

Sponge25

Mickeroo wrote: »

Pardon?

Maybe they can get pregnant once responsibly by accident but not 3-4-5 times! That's negligence:)

OldNotWIse

GROUP HUG EVERYONE!!! IT'S NEARLY PAYDAY!!!

Sponge25

eviltwin wrote: »

Its hard to say. If I was pregnant with a baby that was a result of rape then probably yes, if the baby was destined to die after birth then probably yes.

My life is on an even keel now so an unplanned pregnancy wouldn't be a disaster. But if it changed and we were back were we were a few years ago then yeah I might. I don't know. I was very depressed and suicidal after it. I think that would be what would be the thing that would stop me. I don't want to go back to those dark days again.

If you were raped or the baby was gonna be sick or make you very sick I would understand (I hope that never happens)

I hope ya don't ever feel suicidal again, if ya ever do and need someone to talk too PM. I felt like that before too!:)

Out of curiosity? How old are you? Aprox!

charlietheminxx

Sponge25 wrote: »

No they should be responsible. People who have multiple pregnancies who don't want a baby are an excuse for a human being. Me and my ex were together for 6 years, we didn't want a baby and she never got pregnant once, been with my gf now for a year and she hasn't got pregnant. I'm the most fertile man in Ireland (haha) so why can't everyone else be resposible like me?

Because nothing is foolproof. Nothing. If you have never gotten anyone pregnant, what makes you think you're that fertile?

As well as anything else, since again, you have never gotten anyone pregnant - you seem very sure of how they would react. Until you're in that situation, you cannot be 100% sure.

Sponge25 wrote: »

Would you let it happen again? Just out curiosity? if it wasn't a medical emergency etc?

Do you not think you're being a bit personal by continuously pushing EvilTwin? "Let it happen" implies carelessness. From what she has said so far, she's not coming across as feckless.

LeeHoffmann

In the bulletpoints midway down the page.

Sorry still can´t see it. Can you quote it for me please?

Zulu

Millicent wrote: »

There's a poster on Boards who was adopted who has said a few times ..

Yeah, you know what, I don't believe the majority would prefer to be dead. And I don't believe anyone else here does.

Your suggestion that people would rather be dead is pretty cynical, and frankly subjective. If that's your honest take on human life, then all I can do is feel sorry for you.

eviltwin

Sponge25 wrote: »

If you were raped or the baby was gonna be sick or make you very sick I would understand (I hope that never happens)

I hope ya don't ever feel suicidal again, if ya ever do and need someone to talk too PM. I felt like that before too!:)

Out of curiosity? How old are you? Aprox!

Why does my age matter?

I'm 35, I was 31 when I had the abortion. My husband was 36.

Sponge25

charlietheminxx wrote: »

Because nothing is foolproof. Nothing. If you have never gotten anyone pregnant, what makes you think you're that fertile?

As well as anything else, since again, you have never gotten anyone pregnant - you seem very sure of how they would react. Until you're in that situation, you cannot be 100% sure.



Do you not think you're being a bit personal by continuously pushing EvilTwin? "Let it happen" implies carelessness. From what she has said so far, she's not coming across as feckless.

I'm not pushing Eviltwin, she's a grown woman if she doesn't want to talk to me, one comment and we won't talk. We're just talking i'm curious about why people have abortions and I assume she has some curiosity about people who consider it disgraceful!

Millicent

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

Sorry still can´t see it. Can you quote it for me please?

I'm on my phone so sorry. Will later if no one else has.

Mickeroo

OldNotWIse wrote: »

But seriously, what % of abortions are carried out because of failed contraception?? Does the term "scapegoat" mean anything here??

Buggered if i know I just thought Sponge's post seemed to suggest they thought there was no way people could become pregnant if they are using contraception. I would imagine most unplanned pregnancies are a result of not using or mis-using contraception of course.

Sponge25 wrote: »

Maybe they can get pregnant once responsibly by accident but not 3-4-5 times! That's negligence:)

Ah right, now i get you. But my question was who are these people that have 3,4 or 5 unplanned pregnancies? I would think the overwhelming majority of people who have had an abortion have only had one. Seems a bit silly to go around suggesting there's loads of people out there having multiple abortions.

Sponge25

eviltwin wrote: »

Why does my age matter?

I'm 35, I was 31 when I had the abortion. My husband was 36.

It doesn't matter, was just curious about how early girls have abortions!

A girl I know was barely 18!

eviltwin

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Its not irrelevant. I already stated that she did so because she simply did not want it. By her own admission, it would interfere with her party lifestyle.

You keep saying, "oh so she had an abortion and now you dont want to talk to her" as if stating what I have already said over and over is going to achieve something. Yes I do not want to be in her company because she had an abortion. I dont know why you keep asking me this?

I'm just confused. You say she didn't tell you so if you found out how can you know her reasons. I think the reasons why people do things is as important as the act itself. Its your call either way.

Millicent

Zulu wrote: »

Yeah, you know what, I don't believe the majority would prefer to be dead. And I don't believe anyone else here does.

Your suggestion that people would rather be dead is pretty cynical, and frankly subjective. If that's your honest take on human life, then all I can do is feel sorry for you.

Well I'm very sorry you feel sorry for me. I'm more concerned about people who have been born that those who haven't. I must be a tyrant. :rolleyes:

Mickeroo

Zulu wrote: »

Yeah, you know what, I don't believe the majority would prefer to be dead. And I don't believe anyone else here does.

Your suggestion that people would rather be dead is pretty cynical, and frankly subjective. If that's your honest take on human life, then all I can do is feel sorry for you.

He's not saying they'd prefer to be dead, he's saying it wouldn't make a difference to them because they'd never have existed as a fully functioning human being in the first place.

Dyr

I look forward to the day point the technology will existe where we can transfer unwanted zygotes, foetuses and embryo's into the wombs of pro lifers. Who will then STFU about the rights of the unborn.

LeeHoffmann

.

Sponge25

Mickeroo wrote: »

Buggered if i know I just thought Sponge's post seemed to suggest they thought there was no way people could become pregnant if they are using contraception. I would imagine most unplanned pregnancies are a result of not using or mis-using contraception of course.



Ah right, now i get you. But my question was who are these people that have 3,4 or 5 unplanned pregnancies? I would think the overwhelming majority of people who have had an abortion have only had one. Seems a bit silly to go around suggesting there's loads of people out there having multiple abortions.

Most unplanned pregnancies are almost certainly the result of not using contraception, I'd assume a very small percentage of pregancies are due to failed contraception when used properly.

Trust me, there's people out there who have had multiple abortions, even people who have multiple abortions for highly selfish reasons such as too continue partying etc. I know the vast majority aren't like that but there is people out there!

charlietheminxx

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

Sorry still can´t see it. Can you quote it for me please?

Here you go:

The law allows the adoption of orphans and children born outside marriage (including, in certain circumstances, children whose natural parents subsequently marry each other). In exceptional cases, the High Court can authorise the adoption of children whose parents have failed in their duty of care towards them (this can include children born within marriage).

Gurgle

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

As others have said, there´s no foolproof method apart from celibacy.

Vasectomy anyone?
Reversible if you change your mind

Sponge25

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

As others have said, there´s no foolproof method apart from celibacy. So, is somebody who takes that risk an excuse for a human being, in your opinion?

It depends, having unprotected sex with some whore ya met two hours ago in a nightclub is an excuse of a human being.

Having protected sex with a girl you've loved and been with for five years is a 'risk' to some degree but I don't think anyone can consider such people bad people if they would keep the baby!

As I said, I don't want a baby yet but if my gf got pregnant we both would be very happy!

OldNotWIse

Bambi wrote: »

I look forward to the day point the technology will existe where we can transfer unwanted zygotes, foetuses and embryo's into the wombs of pro lifers. Who will then STFU about the rights of the unborn.

Hows that crystal ball?

I'd love to have a baby, but society makes it difficult for me (ironic really). So if someone told me I could gestate, give birth to and be parent of an unwanted baby I would jump at the chance.

Sponge25

charlietheminxx wrote: »

Here you go:

This suggest the high court can force adoptions for extremely poor parents (Poor in the sense of having bad parenting skills, not financially) not that an married couple can adopt a child away? or is it defacto illegal!?

Millicent

Gurgle wrote: »

Vasectomy anyone?
Reversible if you change your mind

There's quite a big fail rate with it, surprisingly enough.

eviltwin

Sponge25 wrote: »

Most unplanned pregnancies are almost certainly the result of not using contraception, I'd assume a very small percentage of pregancies are due to failed contraception when used properly.

Trust me, there's people out there who have had multiple abortions, even people who have multiple abortions for highly selfish reasons such as too continue partying etc. I know the vast majority aren't like that but there is people out there!

Who are these people are how do you know why they have abortions? Most of the staff in abortion clinics have no idea why women are going into them, you don't get asked for a reason.

I did read something from BFPA a few years ago that said their understanding was that most multiple abortions in women over 18 were women in the sex industry or those heavily using drugs. Probably there is an element of some women using it for contraception but in the UK if you were presenting to your GP on a regular basis looking for a referral I'm sure questions would be asked.

OldNotWIse

eviltwin wrote: »

I'm just confused. You say she didn't tell you so if you found out how can you know her reasons. I think the reasons why people do things is as important as the act itself. Its your call either way.

Er...because she told someone else (who happened to be my best (and slightly less judgemental) best friend)

Mickeroo

Sponge25 wrote: »

Most unplanned pregnancies are almost certainly the result of not using contraception, I'd assume a very small percentage of pregancies are due to failed contraception when used properly.

Trust me, there's people out there who have had multiple abortions, even people who have multiple abortions for highly selfish reasons such as too continue partying etc. I know the vast majority aren't like that but there is people out there!

Yes I've no doubt they exist but using the tiny tiny tiny minority to support your argument is a little facetious imo.

Sponge25

Millicent wrote: »

There's quite a big fail rate with it, surprisingly enough.

Can people with a vesectomy ejaculate? Considering semenily fluid is produced in the abdomen and NOT the testes!?

LeeHoffmann

The law allows the adoption of orphans and children born outside marriage (including, in certain circumstances, children whose natural parents subsequently marry each other). In exceptional cases, the High Court can authorise the adoption of children whose parents have failed in their duty of care towards them (this can include children born within marriage).

Thank you for the quote! That doesn´t say you can´t give the baby up for adoption. It says- in exceptional circumstances. I can´t imagine any court would force a couple to keep a baby they both said they didn´t want. Wouldn´t the option of giving the child up for fostering still be available?

I don't think anyone can consider such people bad people if they would keep the baby!

If they wouldn´t keep the baby though? nice language about the ´whore´ btw

Gurgle

Bambi wrote: »

I look forward to the day point the technology will existe where we can transfer unwanted zygotes, foetuses and embryo's into the wombs of pro lifers. Who will then STFU about the rights of the unborn.

I expect that day to be the end of abortion in europe, but not in other parts of the world. There will be a lot of pro-lifers quietly slinking away, but certainly not the majority.

I look forward to the day they can be put into storage and wait for a volunteer. Then everyone's happy.

eviltwin

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Er...because she told someone else (who happened to be my best (and slightly less judgemental) best friend)

Okay fair enough, I didn't see that. Thanks for the clarification.

up for anything

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Perhaps.

btw what's a "moral majority"?

Dictionary definition: "a presumed majority of people believed to be in favour of a stricter code of public morals"

Sponge25 wrote: »

It depends, having unprotected sex with some whore ya met two hours ago in a nightclub is an excuse of a human being.

Having protected sex with a girl you've loved and been with for five years is a 'risk' to some degree but I don't think anyone can consider such people bad people if they would keep the baby!

As I said, I don't want a baby yet but if my gf got pregnant we both would be very happy!

I'm astounded by you and your thoughts in and around this subject. You are either very earnest about the topic or a wonderful WUM.

Sponge25

Gurgle wrote: »

I expect that day to be the end of abortion in europe, but not in other parts of the world. There will be a lot of pro-lifers quietly slinking away, but certainly not the majority.

I look forward to the day they can be put into storage and wait for a volunteer. Then everyone's happy.

Pro-lifers? So people who support abortions are pro-deathers?

Gurgle

Millicent wrote: »

There's quite a big fail rate with it, surprisingly enough.

Most of the 'failures' happen when people don't read the leaflet and have unprotected sex before they got the all clear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasectomy

The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists state there is a generally agreed upon rate of failure of about 1 in 2000 vasectomies which is considerably better than tubal ligations for which there is one failure in every 200 to 300 cases.[24] Early failure rates, i.e. pregnancy within a few months after vasectomy typically result from having unprotected intercourse too soon after the procedure. Late failure, i.e. pregnancy after recanalization of the vasa deferentia, has been documented.[25] A 2005 systematic review of 28 studies described a total of 183 failures or recanalizations from approximately 43,642 vasectomy patients (0.4%), and 20 studies in the same review described 60 pregnancies after 92,184 vasectomies (0.07%).[26]

Gurgle

Sponge25 wrote: »

Pro-lifers? So people who support abortions are pro-deathers?

Oh crap, please find my first post in this thread and pretend I stuck to my own rules.

Anti-abortion, not pro-life.

OldNotWIse

Gurgle wrote: »

I expect that day to be the end of abortion in europe, but not in other parts of the world. There will be a lot of pro-lifers quietly slinking away, but certainly not the majority.

I look forward to the day they can be put into storage and wait for a volunteer. Then everyone's happy.

Exactly. Look at everything infertile couples have to go through now just to get to the embryo stage - hormonal injections, cycle monitoring, super ovulation, egg harvesting etc etc. If the embryo is already there...thats half the battle

eviltwin

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Exactly. Look at everything infertile couples have to go through now just to get to the embryo stage - hormonal injections, cycle monitoring, super ovulation, egg harvesting etc etc. If the embryo is already there...thats half the battle

There are actually embryos out there that are unwanted just sitting in storage. Their "parents" can either pay huge sums of money each year to keep them or they can be destroyed. Many couples don't ever need all the embryos they have so in theory they could be donated with the consent of the parents.

Gurgle

Sponge25 wrote: »

Can people with a vesectomy ejaculate? Considering semenily fluid is produced in the abdomen and NOT the testes!?

Yes, sex is exactly the same after a vasectomy.

Khannie

Mickeroo wrote: »

Yes I've no doubt they exist but using the tiny tiny tiny minority to support your argument is a little facetious imo.

This whole issue is really about the tiny tiny minorities though. People who have been raped and are pregnant as a result are a tiny tiny minority of pregnancies, yet I think it is right to consider their predicament very, very seriously. I feel very strongly for them. I can't begin to imagine what that's like.

Personally I have never had a pregnancy result from failed contraception. I have always been careful (or in a relationship where I'd be grand with a baby resulting) and I have had lots of sex in my time (thankfully). I have had surprise pregnancies mind you, one that was total "ah here....come on", but with hindsight they always came down to lack of proper use of contraception.

featherlite

Just ask Ray Darcy was it Zig or Zag that had an abortion.His stance has all important criteria for all of this thread.

tomtherobot

I missed some of the recent debate here so give me a chance to catch up but i'd just like to add:

If you call yourself pro-choice in the abortion debate, are you pro the mothers, the fathers or the states choice to decide?

Why do people who call themselves pro-choice keep resorting to (mis)using the same arguments, whereby a woman is forced through tragic circumstance to have an abortion. If a woman becomes pregnant through rape, she has not chosen to have this abortion, it is forced upon her. Likewise, if she has had an abortion because of some medical emergency, she has not chosen it.

To the people who say that abortion is not killing it is just a tough decision to decide not to create life. Why is this decision tougher than using contraception or masturbating?

Would you tell somebody who has just lost a child through miscarriage or stillbirth that it wasn't really a child, just a fetus with the potential for life?

And for the guy that weighed in with counseling being by nature non-judgmental. Fine, counsel all the murderers and pedophiles you want just don't tell me their actions aren't wrong. If a group of men got together and decided to create an advocacy group, saying it was their right to beat their wives, it would be hypocritical of them to demand the state pay for their wives counseling. Likewise it is hypocritical for pro-abortionists to demand state-funded abortion counseling.

Neyite

eviltwin wrote: »

The problem with that is a lot of the scans that show severe medical problems won't be done until week 12 - if you're lucky. Some pregnant women are waiting up until week 16 for a first scan. There needs to flexibility for a woman who finds out her baby won't survive.

Its 23 weeks in some hospitals- I had to kick up hell to have an earlier scan, finally getting one scheduled for 17 weeks and being huffily told by a HSE worker I was to consider myself lucky at that. :rolleyes:

And the reason I wanted an earlier scan? I conceived twins on a much wanted and long desired pregnancy as a result of fertility treatment but a privately paid for scan at 9 weeks revealed one twin had died. I desperately wanted to attend the hospital and get scanned by experts and speak to an OBGYN to see if there was a risk to the existing twin, I also had a hormonal imbalance that needs to be managed to avoid risk to pregnancy, and still could not get an appointment.

Finally my GP pulled a favour and got me seen at 11 weeks, where the OBGYN admonished me for not seeing him sooner.

I have to say that once I was in the system, I was very well looked after right up to and during the birth of my son. But jesus, it was some job to get in there in the first place, and I would not have even gotten there without a brilliant GP.

charlietheminxx

tomtherobot wrote: »

I missed some of the recent debate here so give me a chance to catch up but i'd just like to add:

If you call yourself pro-choice in the abortion debate, are you pro the mothers, the fathers or the states choice to decide?

Why do people who call themselves pro-choice keep resorting to (mis)using the same arguments, whereby a woman is forced through tragic circumstance to have an abortion. If a woman becomes pregnant through rape, she has not chosen to have this abortion, it is forced upon her. Likewise, if she has had an abortion because of some medical emergency, she has not chosen it.

To the people who say that abortion is not killing it is just a tough decision to decide not to create life. Why is this decision tougher than using contraception or masturbating?

Would you tell somebody who has just lost a child through miscarriage or stillbirth that it wasn't really a child, just a fetus with the potential for life?

And for the guy that weighed in with counseling being by nature non-judgmental. Fine, counsel all the murderers and pedophiles you want just don't tell me their actions aren't wrong. If a group of men got together and decided to create an advocacy group, saying it was their right to beat their wives, it would be hypocritical of them to demand the state pay for their wives counseling. Likewise it is hypocritical for pro-abortionists to demand state-funded abortion counseling.

Maybe you should read what people said to your original points before reiterating them again? By all means take your time to catch up but what's the point in posting without doing so? You're just asking the same questions and making the same flawed comparisons.

Khannie

What hospital was that Neyite? We've had more than statistically significant number of miscarriages and for our last 4 pregnancies we've been sent to the early pregnancy unit for scans without any issue at all. We just rang the hospital and asked if memory serves (Rotunda).

eviltwin

tomtherobot wrote: »

I missed some of the recent debate here so give me a chance to catch up but i'd just like to add:

If you call yourself pro-choice in the abortion debate, are you pro the mothers, the fathers or the states choice to decide?

I believe in the will of the people, I would be pro-choice but if a majority vote to keep Ireland abortion free I respect that. I still think though in that case there should be proper aftercare.

Why do people who call themselves pro-choice keep resorting to (mis)using the same arguments, whereby a woman is forced through tragic circumstance to have an abortion. If a woman becomes pregnant through rape, she has not chosen to have this abortion, it is forced upon her. Likewise, if she has had an abortion because of some medical emergency, she has not chosen it.

I didn't but its a valid argument, right now abortion is denied to all. Surely even if you disagree with abortion on demand you can accept it should be legal for the women who fall into the above groups and give them access to it here.

To the people who say that abortion is not killing it is just a tough decision to decide not to create life. Why is this decision tougher than using contraception or masturbating?

No idea what this means

Would you tell somebody who has just lost a child through miscarriage or stillbirth that it wasn't really a child, just a fetus with the potential for life?

No of course not, you would treat them with kindness and compassion and not add to their hurt and pain.

And for the guy that weighed in with counseling being by nature non-judgmental. Fine, counsel all the murderers and pedophiles you want just don't tell me their actions aren't wrong. If a group of men got together and decided to create an advocacy group, saying it was their right to beat their wives, it would be hypocritical of them to demand the state pay for their wives counseling. Likewise it is hypocritical for pro-abortionists to demand state-funded abortion counseling.

Everyone's taxes pay for things they don't agree with. I have to pay taxes to fund companies that test on animals, I have to pay tax to pay over inflated wages of TD's, I have to pay for Catholic schools. I don't like any of those but I accept when you live in a diverse society you have to be fair and not expect things your own way all the time. /QUOTE]

Matt_Trakker

Vicar in a tutu wrote: »

To be honest I dont agree with that timeframe at all, I think it should be definitely legal here but perhaps only up until about 11 or 12 weeks.

most women don't even know they're pregnant until 12 weeks, kinda pointless to have an abortion if ya don't even know you're pregnant.

Khannie

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

most women don't even know they're pregnant until 12 weeks

Nonsense.

Matt_Trakker

Khannie wrote: »

Nonsense.

prove it

Matt_Trakker

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

prove it

If you're going to demand that someone "prove it", maybe you should consider backing up your original claim.

charlietheminxx

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

most women don't even know they're pregnant until 12 weeks, kinda pointless to have an abortion if ya don't even know you're pregnant.

Most women know before 10 weeks. Some don't of course, but most do.