Abortion

Reality_Check1

I dont really like weighing in with my opinions to serious debates like this because to be honest peoples opinions are already set in stone and no amount of well thought out or constructed arguements are likely to change that....but Im bored so whatever

tomtherobot wrote: »

I missed some of the recent debate here so give me a chance to catch up but i'd just like to add:

If you call yourself pro-choice in the abortion debate, are you pro the mothers, the fathers or the states choice to decide?

Why do people who call themselves pro-choice keep resorting to (mis)using the same arguments, whereby a woman is forced through tragic circumstance to have an abortion. If a woman becomes pregnant through rape, she has not chosen to have this abortion, it is forced upon her. Likewise, if she has had an abortion because of some medical emergency, she has not chosen it.

To the people who say that abortion is not killing it is just a tough decision to decide not to create life. Why is this decision tougher than using contraception or masturbating?

Would you tell somebody who has just lost a child through miscarriage or stillbirth that it wasn't really a child, just a fetus with the potential for life?

And for the guy that weighed in with counseling being by nature non-judgmental. Fine, counsel all the murderers and pedophiles you want just don't tell me their actions aren't wrong. If a group of men got together and decided to create an advocacy group, saying it was their right to beat their wives, it would be hypocritical of them to demand the state pay for their wives counseling. Likewise it is hypocritical for pro-abortionists to demand state-funded abortion counseling.

To the above poster I cant speak for everyone that is "pro choice" because even the definition of the term is different for everyone but I like to think that being "pro choice" means that you support the idea of having resources available to provide to women that may need/want to seek an abortion

You cant really compare an abortion to using contraception since the actual mechanics of an abortion involve an extremely invasive medical procedure as well as having obvious psychological aspects to it. You wouldnt tell a lady who lost a child to miscarriage that it was "only" a fetus as they need their coping mechanisms too they just happen to be different to the needs of a lady who got an abortion.

Your last point is completely nonsensical if I'm being honest. Like I said previously people who are pro choice just want the resources made available to a lady who may find herself in this situation. They arent going around forcing abortions on people and then demanding counselling for them

tomtherobot

Vicar in a tutu wrote: »

that's nonsense its not at all the same as abortion. they have experienced life and have breathed air, they arent a little bunch of cells clustered up.

Fine, go and tell people mourning a miscarriage or a stillbirth that it wasn't a life just a little bunch of clustered up cells

Millicent wrote: »

As to the ridiculous OP who doesn't think that counselling should be available in such an instance, that says a lot about your humanity and compassion for other human beings.

I clarified that i think it's a good thing for counseling to be available for people who've had abortion forced upon them. A different matter entirely when it's advocated, or chose as a lifestyle choice.

charlietheminxx wrote: »

Maybe you should read what people said to your original points before reiterating them again? By all means take your time to catch up but what's the point in posting without doing so? You're just asking the same questions and making the same flawed comparisons.

I am responding to comments as i get through them, in that post i had been responding to what was new. Can you give me something more than just calling my arguments flawed?

Matt_Trakker

Deleted User wrote: »

If you're going to demand that someone "prove it", maybe you should consider backing up your original claim.

ah, you again.

Matt_Trakker

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

ah, you again.

Care to expand?

Khannie

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

prove it

Deleted User wrote: »

If you're going to demand that someone "prove it", maybe you should consider backing up your original claim.

What she said. I call plucked from the air nonsense so you back up your original claim there please.

I know there are cases of it, but the hormonal changes that affect a woman more or less immediately, not to mention a missed period (it would be 8 weeks late by 12 weeks!!!) = seems highly unlikely that most women are going to make it past 12 weeks not knowing they're pregnant as you claim.

Idle Passerby

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

most women don't even know they're pregnant until 12 weeks, kinda pointless to have an abortion if ya don't even know you're pregnant.

12 weeks is 3 months. You dont think a sexually active, grown woman who has missed 3 periods, probably put on weight and possibly having morning sickness wouldn't have twigged something by then?

Sponge25

How long does it take before a lady feels symptomatic of pregnancy? Anyone ever seen 'I didn't know I was pregnant' or some similiar titled documentary about women who suddenly find themselves giving birth in the bath or the kitchen floor without even knowing they were pregnant untill they went into labour!?

Khannie

Sponge25 wrote: »

How long does it take before a lady feels symptomatic of pregnancy?

On our last pregnancy I knew my wife was pregnant from looking at her boobs at 4 weeks (i.e. probably 2 weeks after implantation, give or take). No joke. She said she noticed it too. Pee'd on a stick and presto. She was pregnant.

tomtherobot

eviltwin wrote: »

I didn't but its a valid argument, right now abortion is denied to all. Surely even if you disagree with abortion on demand you can accept it should be legal for the women who fall into the above groups and give them access to it here.

Yes, just like it's legal to kill in self defense. It doesn't make killing by choice ok and the two arguments should not be confused.

eviltwin wrote: »

No of course not, you would treat them with kindness and compassion and not add to their hurt and pain.

But if you believed their suffering was in some part caused by a false believe that the unborn child was alive, the kind compassionate thing to do would be to set them right?

eviltwin wrote: »

Everyone's taxes pay for things they don't agree with. I have to pay taxes to fund companies that test on animals, I have to pay tax to pay over inflated wages of TD's, I have to pay for Catholic schools. I don't like any of those but I accept when you live in a diverse society you have to be fair and not expect things your own way all the time.

I don't get this. Because the government does other wrong things we have to except all the wrong things they do??? What?

Sponge25

Khannie wrote: »

On our last pregnancy I knew my wife was pregnant from looking at her boobs at 4 weeks (i.e. probably 2 weeks after implantation, give or take). No joke. She said she noticed it too. Pee'd on a stick and presto. She was pregnant.

Well done:)

haha, yeah I heard girls boobies hurt when they're pregnant sometimes! Maybe it's something to do with milk production to feed the baby?

Morag

Dangerous Man wrote: »

Show some respect. If you can't discuss something without resorting to petty insults then go away.

wow touchy much?
I didnt name anyone and merely mad an observation.

Fizzlesque

Gurgle wrote: »

I don't really understand, do you regret losing the child or having it?

I regret allowing my child be brought up by another woman. No feeling like a hero here.

Khannie

Sponge25 wrote: »

Well done:)

haha, yeah I heard girls boobies hurt when they're pregnant sometimes! Maybe it's something to do with milk production to feed the baby?

"Khannie the visual pregnancy detector" (tm). There's a change in the size and firmness of a womans breasts very early on. I suppose you'd probably need to be intimate with the person to notice it.

Sponge25

Fizzlesque wrote: »

I regret allowing my child be brought up by another woman. No feeling like a hero here.

Well atleast he/she's happy and that's what really matters? I know you're sad but the babies what matters most? huh?

Morag

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

Are you saying that it´s illegal to give a baby up for adoption if you´re married?

The parental rights of married parents can not be quashed by the courts which means those parental rights can not be given to new adopted parents.
It is just legally not possible.

cynder

Sponge25 wrote: »

How long does it take before a lady feels symptomatic of pregnancy? Anyone ever seen 'I didn't know I was pregnant' or some similiar titled documentary about women who suddenly find themselves giving birth in the bath or the kitchen floor without even knowing they were pregnant untill they went into labour!?

A hand full. That's why the go on tv because it's uncommon.


With my 3rd I knew 5 days after the act ( taste in my mouth changed). he was planned and it was our first try.

First 3 weeks after the act, I missed a period. I had a good few symptoms .with the Second one I knew 2 weeks later 2 days before period was due again down to taste change.

Matt_Trakker

Khannie wrote: »

What she said. I call plucked from the air nonsense so you back up your original claim there please.

That ain't how it works chappie, I asked you to prove it first. :D

Idle Passerby wrote: »

12 weeks is 3 months. You dont think a sexually active, grown woman who has missed 3 periods, probably put on weight and possibly having morning sickness wouldn't have twigged something by then?

no ****?

Just coz your pregnant doesn't mean you will suffer morning sickness or miss a period. Everyone knows that. :rolleyes:

Anyway, 12 weeks, 14, 16, 18 whatever, doesn't matter it's still not a person, it's just a foetus, so it can still be terminated.

Khannie

Sharrow wrote: »

wow touchy much?
I didnt name anyone and merely mad an observation.

Ah to be fair it was pretty sweeping. Certainly anyone who disagreed with you would have questioned whether or not you were applying it to them

YD are a fairly extremist group. I'm sure most rational people don't want to be associated with extremism.

Sponge25

cynder wrote: »

A hand full. That's why the go on tv because it's uncommon.


With my 3rd I knew 5 days after the act ( taste in my mouth changed). he was planned and it was our first try.

First 3 weeks after the act, I missed a period. I had a good few symptoms .with the Second one I knew 2 weeks later 2 days before period was due again down to taste change.

It's not unusual for some girls to not get a period an odd month! Is it?

Khannie

Sharrow wrote: »

The parental rights of married parents can not be quashed by the courts which means those parental rights can not be given to new adopted parents.
It is just legally not possible.

That seems like something that should be changed. Does that mean that it's impossible to be a married surrogate?

eviltwin

Sponge25 wrote: »

Well atleast he/she's happy and that's what really matters? I know you're sad but the babies what matters most? huh?

That is one of the most hurtful things I have seen on boards in a long time. Shame on you putting that up there.

Matt_Trakker

tomtherobot wrote: »

Yes, just like it's legal to kill in self defense. It doesn't make killing by choice ok and the two arguments should not be confused.

Here's where your logic is hugely flawed. You not killing a person. You're killing a life form yes, but not a person.

Sponge25

eviltwin wrote: »

That is one of the most hurtful things I have seen on boards in a long time. Shame on you putting that up there.

Huh? I was trying to make her feel better?

Khannie

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

Here's where your logic is hugely flawed. You not killing a person. You're killing a life form yes, but not a person.

That's where the disagreement lies of course.

Skylinehead

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

That ain't how it works chappie, I asked you to prove it first. :D

No, that's not how it works. You made a statement, without evidence, now you're being asked to provide proof.

Morag

Khannie wrote: »

That seems like something that should be changed. Does that mean that it's impossible to be a married surrogate?

Ireland has no legal status for surrogates who ever gives birth to the baby is the automatic parent guardian even if it's genetically not their child.

eviltwin

Sharrow wrote: »

Ireland has no legal status for surrogates.

Doesn't the law state that the baby "belongs" to the surrogate even if she is only the carrier and has no biological relationship with the child?

Sponge25

I know Ireland has no jurisdiction over the UK but where does Ireland stand on woman going to the UK for abortions? Legally etc? even if it's not mentioned, what's the opinion of officials etc?

Khannie

eviltwin wrote: »

That is one of the most hurtful things I have seen on boards in a long time. Shame on you putting that up there.

Only if the intent was bad, which I doubt. My sister in law gave a child up for adoption. It hurts her that someone else is raising the child but she does take solace from the fact that the child is happy - happier than she could have been in my sister in laws care (not saying that's the case for the other poster, only that a happy, well loved child is a good thing).

Khannie

Sponge25 wrote: »

I know Ireland has no jurisdiction over the UK but where does Ireland stand on woman going to the UK for abortions?

Totally fine. X case.

cynder

Sponge25 wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

A hand full. That's why the go on tv because it's uncommon.


With my 3rd I knew 5 days after the act ( taste in my mouth changed). he was planned and it was our first try.

First 3 weeks after the act, I missed a period. I had a good few symptoms .with the Second one I knew 2 weeks later 2 days before period was due again down to taste change.

It's not unusual for some girls to not get a period an odd month! Is it?

Depends its not just girls who get pregnant women also.

Once periods have settled can take up to a year or 2, with the majority of girls having periods before the age of 13 periods should be settled by 15 then its not normal to miss one unless something is medically wrong, a few ( minority) never have regular periods and these should take extra care because they don't know when they ovulate

If you look at Ireland I bet the stats would state most women knew they were pregnant before 10 weeks. Only a handful would be later and I bet you could count on your fingers those who never knew at all.

But I don't think Ireland does those stats.

tomtherobot

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

Here's where your logic is hugely flawed. You not killing a person. You're killing a life form yes, but not a person.

And again, tell this to somebody who has miscarried? Tell them they haven't lost a child just a 'life form' it's ok to kill. Courage of your convictions?

Gurgle

Sponge25 wrote: »

I know Ireland has no jurisdiction over the UK but where does Ireland stand on woman going to the UK for abortions? Legally etc? even if it's not mentioned, what's the opinion of officials etc?

Not mentioned?
Its enshrined in the constitution.

Article 40.3.3
The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

This subsection shall not limit freedom to travel between the State and another state.

This subsection shall not limit freedom to obtain or make available, in the State, subject to such conditions as may be laid down by law, information relating to services lawfully available in another state.

eviltwin

tomtherobot wrote: »

And again, tell this to somebody who has miscarried? Tell them they haven't lost a child just a 'life form' it's ok to kill. Courage of your convictions?

Its all down to the mindset of the individual. Everyone is different. I know women trying for babies who feel a loss of sorts when they have a period every month even though they were never pregnant. Its all about the emotional value you place in the pregnancy, if your're planning and hoping for a baby you will have a much greater emotional investment that a woman who doesn't want one.

tomtherobot

eviltwin wrote: »

Its all down to the mindset of the individual. Everyone is different. I know women trying for babies who feel a loss of sorts when they have a period every month even though they were never pregnant. Its all about the emotional value you place in the pregnancy, if your're planning and hoping for a baby you will have a much greater emotional investment that a woman who doesn't want one.

Are you the counselor? Would you tell that to somebody coming to you for counseling for a miscarriage or a stillbirth? Sorry, you're baby wasn't really alive, it's all down to your mindset and it's just a loss of sorts....

Morag

Sponge25 wrote: »

I know Ireland has no jurisdiction over the UK but where does Ireland stand on woman going to the UK for abortions? Legally etc? even if it's not mentioned, what's the opinion of officials etc?

We had a referendum on it in 1992.
The right to travel and the right to informaton was put to the vote and passed.

Constitutional Referendum 1992

Another referendum was held in 1992, in which two amendments were passed that established the 'right to travel' and the 'right to information'. A third proposal, the proposed Twelfth Amendment, would have defined when abortions could be considered legal, but was defeated. The 1992 referendum was fought at the same time as a general election which filled the newspapers and airwaves. This pushed the referendum to the very margins of public debate and whatever debate took place was on the substantive issue and not on Information or Travel. The Government also spent public funds on one-sided advertisements - a practice later declared unconstitutional in the McKenna judgement. The amendment on the substantive issue was rejected and Travel and Information amendments were passed though nearly 40% opposed the latter. Due to questions about the constitutionality of the amendments, the changes did not come into force until 1995.

Morag

tomtherobot wrote: »

And again, tell this to somebody who has miscarried? Tell them they haven't lost a child just a 'life form' it's ok to kill. Courage of your convictions?

Yes I have, but they are the same as some one who has had an abortion may grieve for that loss of that potential child.

eviltwin

tomtherobot wrote: »

Are you the counselor? Would you tell that to somebody coming to you for counseling for a miscarriage or a stillbirth? Sorry, you're baby wasn't really alive, it's all down to your mindset and it's just a loss of sorts....

I am but not for anything to do with pregnancy.

Why would I say that? If a friend lost a baby early on for example and was in bits over it I would totally support her. Just because I might not feel the same level of grief as she does doesn't mean I'm right and she's wrong or vice versa. I deal with people who get upset over things I personally wouldn't all the time but its not about how I feel about their situation its all about them.

Its all about empathy my friend and trying to imagine the situation the other person finds themselves in.

Fizzlesque

Sponge25 wrote: »

Well atleast he/she's happy and that's what really matters? I know you're sad but the babies what matters most? huh?

How do you know she's happy? Can you be sure she doesn't feel abandoned by me, or think badly of me? How do you know she wasn't treated badly by her adopted parents? How do you know she doesn't curse the fact she was ever born?

Thing is, you don't, and neither do I.

I hope you're right, I hope she is happy ---- oh how I hope that's the case, but only one person can answer that question, and it ain't you or me.

Sponge25 wrote: »

Huh? I was trying to make her feel better?

Job not done. Only one person can make me feel better, and that one person is not yet ready to take on board the enormous emotional baggage that that would involve. That's presuming she ever will be.

tomtherobot

Sharrow wrote: »

Yes I have, but they are the same as some one who has had an abortion may grieve for that loss of that potential child.

You have what?

eviltwin wrote: »

Its all about empathy my friend and trying to imagine the situation the other person finds themselves in.

That's all great and flowery and lovely but again, with your approach to counselling, you will try to find empathy with rapists and pedophiles, correct?

That doesn't make what they've done ok?

eviltwin

tomtherobot wrote: »

You have what?



That's all great and flowery and lovely but again, with your approach to counselling, you will try to find empathy with rapists and pedophiles, correct?

That doesn't make what they've done ok?

I'll try and understand people's motives yes. I don't know anything about the mindset of rapists or pedophiles. I can't say why they do what they do, if they are sick or just bad people. I'll let others better qualified do that.

I don't think women who have abortions are like them though, rape and child abuse are crimes, abortion is not.

tomtherobot

eviltwin wrote: »

Why would I say that? If a friend lost a baby early on for example and was in bits over it I would totally support her. Just because I might not feel the same level of grief as she does doesn't mean I'm right and she's wrong or vice versa. I deal with people who get upset over things I personally wouldn't all the time but its not about how I feel about their situation its all about them.

So if you were counseling somebody and thought their grief was worsened by them not knowing the facts of the situation you wouldn't tell them the facts?

If i came to you for grief counseling because i thought my mum was violently murdered. If you knew that actually she died peacefully of natural causes, you wouldn't tell me?

Idle Passerby

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

no ****?

Just coz your pregnant doesn't mean you will suffer morning sickness or miss a period. Everyone knows that. :rolleyes:

Anyway, 12 weeks, 14, 16, 18 whatever, doesn't matter it's still not a person, it's just a foetus, so it can still be terminated.

Im not anti-abortion, I was just pointing out that "most women don't know they're pregnant at 12 weeks" is not a factual statement. The remark that an abortion at that point would be redundant is a silly one since no one would shlep over to an abortion clinic in Britain if they didn't already know they were pregnant. It was a silly comment.

Fizzlesque

Gurgle wrote: »

Vasectomy anyone?
Reversible if you change your mind

Funny you should post that, because I was thinking along similar lines earlier - perhaps more men should have a vasectomy (especially those who are militantly opposed to abortion) and have it reversed when they're ready to start a family.

tomtherobot

eviltwin wrote: »

I can't say why they do what they do, if they are sick or just bad people. I'll let others better qualified do that.

Then don't give the impression your counseling background adds weight to you're opinions on the rights and wrongs of abortion.

eviltwin

tomtherobot wrote: »

So if you were counseling somebody and thought their grief was worsened by them not knowing the facts of the situation you wouldn't tell them the facts?

If i came to you for grief counseling because i thought my mum was violently murdered. If you knew that actually she died peacefully of natural causes, you wouldn't tell me?

I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

Mickeroo

tomtherobot wrote: »

So if you were counseling somebody and thought their grief was worsened by them not knowing the facts of the situation you wouldn't tell them the facts?

If i came to you for grief counseling because i thought my mum was violently murdered. If you knew that actually she died peacefully of natural causes, you wouldn't tell me?

What an astoundingly ridiculous question. What on earth are you talking about?

Morag

Fizzlesque wrote: »

Funny you should post that, because I was thinking along similar lines earlier - perhaps more men should have a vasectomy (especially those who are militantly opposed to abortion) and have it reversed when they're ready to start a family.

When they are done the drs say that they should be treated as irreversible.
The new gel injection option is not available here.

tomtherobot

eviltwin wrote: »

I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

If somebody you are counseling is suffering because of a false belief, would you set them right on that belief or allow them to suffer?

eviltwin

tomtherobot wrote: »

Then don't give the impression your counseling background adds weight to you're opinions on the rights and wrongs of abortion.

I never said it did I mentioned it because you said in an earlier post that people shouldn't be paying taxes to help people who are in situations of their own making. I made the point I deal with people in violent relationships, one could argue that is of their own making and I asked you would you stop the state supporting my employer ( which you didn't answer )

My opinion is only an opinion, no more or less valid than yours but having been through an abortion personally I think my experience is important to debunk the myths that are on these threads.