Abortion

Bipolar Joe

Khannie wrote: »

Sure it's not a human if you call it a fetus. At what point is it a child in a moral or ethical sense for you?

I think Jernal summed it up pretty well, in amongst the incest fetish stuff.

Khannie

Stark wrote: »

Aren't you the lucky one? I've made it through 30 years of life without any debilitation diseases. Sure not getting sick is not that hard.

Ridiculous argument tbh. People generally have no control over these things but they have control over their contraception. Most contraceptives when properly used are highly effective.

I could say "not getting type 2 diabetes from overeating is not that hard" and that would be accurate of course, if you want to take that route.

cynder

charlietheminxx wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

Why do we need to accept this? Just because people murder people every day doesn't mean we have to accept it, plan for it going forward.

What is a genuine reason?

No wanting a baby is not a genuine reason. No to me anyway. The baby having down syndrome is not a genuine reason. Not to me. Having a girl instead of a boy is not a genuine reason.

Tbh I think most women having one, do not have genuine reasons.

We do not need to support them, they make a choice live with it,it it's that hard to make then they know it's wrong but they brainwash themselves to make them think it's right.. If you continue to tell yourself something over and over you believe it.

Plenty of genuine reasons have been mentioned;

• If it puts the mother's life at risk
• If the baby won't survive outside the womb
• If the mother is an addict
• Personal circumstances (you cannot afford a baby, are too young, are in a violent relationship etc etc)
  As examples.

It's not about if it is a genuine reason to you. These women are not accountable to you. Certainly your opinion has merit, and you're free to encourage other options but these women are travelling to England and having them anyway. Away from home and support.

Who are you to deny them that?

Your last point is incredible ignorant. Not everyone shares your personal moral code, nor have they been brainwashed. You think they should suffer indefinitely because they made a choice you, and other people of your viewpoint, don't agree with?

The only reason one would suffer is if they knew what they did was wrong and the guilt was overwhelming.

Why not prevent the wrong from taking place, in the first place ?

Too young, isn't a genuine reason it's an excuse.

Violent relationship isn't a genuine reason it's an excuse, one should leave the violent relationship.

Not enough money isn't a genuine reason ( in Ireland) it's an excuse. Plenty of people have kids and don't earn that much or are on the bread line, doesn't mean we should kill their kids.

Being an addict is also an excuse. Get clean ....

Putting mothers life at risk is a reason,

Khannie

charlietheminxx wrote: »

You're lucky. I'm lucky. But not everyone is. The most failsafe contraception statistically is the implanon at 0.03% failure. It still isn't 0% and that doesn't suit everyone. Most contraceptions have a much higher fail rate.

If abortion rates in western countries were anywhere near the failure rates of properly used contraception then this would hold weight. The reality is that it is 10-15 times higher than the 2% failure rate of (for example) properly used condoms. So it's not down to the minority of unfortunates.

B0jangles

cynder wrote: »

The only reason one would suffer is if they knew what they did was wrong and the guilt was overwhelming.

Why not prevent the wrong from taking place, in the first place ?

Too young, isn't a genuine reason it's an excuse.

Violent relationship isn't a genuine reason it's an excuse, one should leave the violent relationship.

Not enough money isn't a genuine reason ( in Ireland) it's an excuse. Plenty of people have kids and don't earn that much or are on the bread line, doesn't mean we should kill their kids.

Being an addict is also an excuse. Get clean ....

Putting mothers life at risk is a reason,

You seem to have a profound lack of empathy for actual people who have actual problems and yet you seem to care deeply for the potential person that a zygote or fetus represents.

I find your position puzzling tbh.

charlietheminxx

cynder wrote: »

The only reason one would suffer is if they knew what they did was wrong and the guilt was overwhelming.

Why not prevent the wrong from taking place, in the first place ?

Too young, isn't a genuine reason it's an excuse.

Violent relationship isn't a genuine reason it's an excuse, one should leave the violent relationship.

Not enough money isn't a genuine reason ( in Ireland) it's an excuse. Plenty of people have kids and don't earn that much or are on the bread line, doesn't mean we should kill their kids.

Being an addict is also an excuse. Get clean ....

Putting mothers life at risk is a reason,

Do you know much about addiction? Have you seen a baby born addicted to drugs? Or a baby with Foetal Alcohol Syndrome?

Do you know much about violent relationships? No offence but it doesn't seem like it.

No we shouldn't kill kids, but a women can choose not to HAVE a child, and bring it into a life of poverty and deprevation.

Dyr

B0jangles wrote: »

You seem to have a profound lack of empathy for actual people who have actual problems and yet you seem to care deeply for the potential person that a zygote or fetus represents.

I find your position puzzling tbh.

It's common enough

Bipolar Joe

Bambi wrote: »

It's common enough

Doesn't make it any less puzzling.

cynder

charlietheminxx wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

The only reason one would suffer is if they knew what they did was wrong and the guilt was overwhelming.

Why not prevent the wrong from taking place, in the first place ?

Too young, isn't a genuine reason it's an excuse.

Violent relationship isn't a genuine reason it's an excuse, one should leave the violent relationship.

Not enough money isn't a genuine reason ( in Ireland) it's an excuse. Plenty of people have kids and don't earn that much or are on the bread line, doesn't mean we should kill their kids.

Being an addict is also an excuse. Get clean ....

Putting mothers life at risk is a reason,

Do you know much about addiction? Have you seen a baby born addicted to drugs? Or a baby with Foetal Alcohol Syndrome?

Do you know much about violent relationships? No offence but it doesn't seem like it.

No we shouldn't kill kids, but a women can choose not to HAVE a child, and bring it into a life of poverty and deprevation.

How many people have climbed out of poverty? Life is what you make it, you can have a child in poverty and come out the other end, it's not impossible.

Even when the child is grown up they can life a very fulfilling life. Who is to say what would happen 2 years, 10 years 15 years down the line, killing the baby before it even gas a chance.


My dad was an alcoholic, I only know too well about addiction.

I saw my mother's head get smashed against the wall over and over, saw her punched, bruised and bloodied...

She had an abortion at 19, she told me about it when I was pregnant at 18, her mother and older sister forced her to do it because she was unwed. She told me I could have one and she would support me, I thanked her and said no. the baby had a different dad to my dad.

charlietheminxx

cynder wrote: »

How many people have climbed out of poverty? Life is what you make it, you can have a child in poverty and come out the other end, it's not impossible.

Even when the child is grown up they can life a very fulfilling life. Who is to say what would happen 2 years, 10 years 15 years down the line, killing the baby before it even gas a chance.


My dad was an alcoholic, I only know too well about addiction.

I saw my mother's head get smashed against the wall over and over, saw her punched, bruised and bloodied...

She had an abortion at 19, she told me about it when I was pregnant at 18, her mother and older sister forced her to do it because she was unwed. She told me I could have one and she would support me, I thanked her and said no. the baby had a different dad to my dad.

I find it odd that you said people should just leave an abusive relationship when you have witnessed one that bad first hand. You must know it isn't that simple.

You made your choice but you would have had support if you had chosen abortion too. Not every woman doing the secret trip to England can say the same.

cynder

B0jangles wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

The only reason one would suffer is if they knew what they did was wrong and the guilt was overwhelming.

Why not prevent the wrong from taking place, in the first place ?

Too young, isn't a genuine reason it's an excuse.

Violent relationship isn't a genuine reason it's an excuse, one should leave the violent relationship.

Not enough money isn't a genuine reason ( in Ireland) it's an excuse. Plenty of people have kids and don't earn that much or are on the bread line, doesn't mean we should kill their kids.

Being an addict is also an excuse. Get clean ....

Putting mothers life at risk is a reason,

You seem to have a profound lack of empathy for actual people who have actual problems and yet you seem to care deeply for the potential person that a zygote or fetus represents.

I find your position puzzling tbh.

The baby doesn't get a choice, it doesn't get a chance, it doesn't get to taste the air, it doesn't get to live, love, learn, have fun, have kids of its own, see it's grandkids, it only gets to die....

People can turn their situations around, take a different path, a unborn baby doesn't get a chance.


Speaking from someone who has seen hell and come out the other end....

Bipolar Joe

Not everyone gets a chance. We are not born equal.

Dyr

cynder wrote: »

The baby doesn't get a choice, it doesn't get a chance, it doesn't get to taste the air, it doesn't get to live, love, learn, have fun, have kids of its own, see it's grandkids, it only gets to die....

How can a foetus make a choice in the first place?

blacklilly

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

Not everyone gets a chance. We are not born equal.

Correct but are we to judge a person's life on how wealthy or poor they are? The unborn life of a child who's parents are poor. Is not less worthy than the unborn of wealthy parents.
Yes some children will be born into poverty and may never get out of it but should they not be afforded the chance.
Who can truely say they had a perfect childhood? Some may be born into wealthy families but that doesnt automatically equate to a happy fulfilling life

cynder

charlietheminxx wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

How many people have climbed out of poverty? Life is what you make it, you can have a child in poverty and come out the other end, it's not impossible.

Even when the child is grown up they can life a very fulfilling life. Who is to say what would happen 2 years, 10 years 15 years down the line, killing the baby before it even gas a chance.


My dad was an alcoholic, I only know too well about addiction.

I saw my mother's head get smashed against the wall over and over, saw her punched, bruised and bloodied...

She had an abortion at 19, she told me about it when I was pregnant at 18, her mother and older sister forced her to do it because she was unwed. She told me I could have one and she would support me, I thanked her and said no. the baby had a different dad to my dad.

I find it odd that you said people should just leave an abusive relationship when you have witnessed one that bad first hand. You must know it isn't that simple.

You made your choice but you would have had support if you had chosen abortion too. Not every woman doing the secret trip to England can say the same.

There are places out there that help women get out of abusive relationships killing the baby and staying in the relationship isn't the answer.

There are injunctions you can get, aborting the baby is an excuse.

Abortion didn't enter my head, if I did do it why would I have needed support?

My daughter asked me what would I do if she got pregnant at 16, I told her I would take care of the baby.

My mother told me that if my baby was disabled that she would take care of it and I could live my life, I said no thanks mom the baby is my life, I'm a mom that's what moms do, make sacrifices for their kids.

Khannie

Bambi wrote: »

How can a foetus make a choice in the first place?

What's your point? It's not capable of making a decision therefore we're free to kill it? Newborns can't make decisions either.

gozunda

Zulu wrote: »

I don't understand, what's wrong with a woman?

I find it interesting that you'd choose to play the "sexist" card while completely dismissing the father. I guess men don't count, except when they are used to represent the "she is only a woman after all" attitude. Frankly this speaks volumes about your own prejudices.

That was irony btw. Well without woman there would be no place for the foetus to come to term in the first place - where you going to put it - in a box?

No card being played or otherwise. The reference is to the responsibility of women who give birth - they are primarily responsible for a child born to the first degree.

Dont understand your point about prejudice tbh unless you are indicating that men in some way legally bear an equel burden in our society - which they dont in fact. maybe that should be fixed first before we go around telling people what they should or should not do when only they can make that decision based on what they know.

Zulu wrote: »

Is there a case, at all, where a living person who can not speak for themselves is assumed to want to die by the state? AFAIK, the state tends to take the position that life is to be protected, and for good reason.

Who wishes to die or live by the state? Life is not protected per se - rather the committing of an criminal offence against a person is legislated for. Their may be some grand statement in their about the life of the unborn - but it is not expressed directly. We dont have Capital Punishment here either and that is actual death by the state.

Zulu wrote: »

Indeed. I can't understand how someone can take the position: well I don't agree with it, but it's not my choice!

Frankly it's your civic duty to stand against what you believe is wrong. It's your democratic responsibility as a member of a society to vote for what you believe.

I see it as killing defenseless people at a lower stage of development. I wouldn't like the execution of adolescents, or pre-adolescents children, nor children, or toddlers, or infants, or babies would are born premature, or those about to be born. So I can't justify killing those 4 weeks before birth, or 8 weeks, or 16 weeks. I err on the side of caution (considering a life is at stake).

So if humans are not exceptional (ie sacred) what is so precious that every conception must be finalised at the insistance of the law? What about other animals? Those that only have a 5% difference or less in their DNA - apes, monkies etc - surely these can be defined as "at a lower stage of development". What about other sentient beings? What makes us so special, its not like there isnt enough of us around! So what about woman who have miscarriages before term? should they prosecuted because they failed to hang on to the result of conception and in your logic life? Where a foetus is not independent of the mother and not capable of survival then it is not "killing" or do you wish to stigmatise all those who fail to carry a pregnacy thru to term as killers.

I am putting forward these arguments as my means of looking further into perceptions of human morality and how we see ourselves in relation to position as the dominant species on the planet. I do believe that much of this "sacred" view of ourselves over other species comes from religion in that we have become conditioned to see some reflection of a supreme being....

cynder

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

Not everyone gets a chance. We are not born equal.

Life is what you make it,

You want to sit and mope about how unfair life is your not going to get much out of it.

I was withdrawn from school at 11, I had no formal education, never been to secondary school, I worked full time from age 14, I went back and did the lca at 22 got 196 points out if 200 at 24, got a decent job had 2 more kids and got married to their dad ( we are together 15 years)

Now I could have become a full time mom at 19 and not bothered about getting an education or bettering myself, I could have said poor me and turned to crime.



We have a choice.

Dyr

Khannie wrote: »

What's your point? It's not capable of making a decision therefore we're free to kill it? Newborns can't make decisions either.

Point is that overly dramatic post is overly dramatic

charlietheminxx

cynder wrote: »

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

Not everyone gets a chance. We are not born equal.

We have a choice.

Firstly well done. You've done very well and clearly worked hard to get where you are. I commend you for it.

However I still don't agree with your argument. The end said "We all have a choice". Yes, we do so let other people make theirs. You might feel it's excuses but you don't know them. You can't decide for them.

cynder

charlietheminxx wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

Not everyone gets a chance. We are not born equal.

We have a choice.

Firstly well done. You've done very well and clearly worked hard to get where you are. I commend you for it.

However I still don't agree with your argument. The end said "We all have a choice". Yes, we do so let other people make theirs. You might feel it's excuses but you don't know them. You can't decide for them.

We all have a choice, we can get an ak47 and shoot down 50 school kids, we can walk into a cinema and kill the citizens in there, we can join a terrorist group, we can steal from our neighbours, we can do whatever the hell we like because we are human yet our actions have repercussions and we have to live with those. Murder victims don't get a choice neither does the unborn baby.

Perhaps murders ask their victims do you want to die, I bet most say no, perhaps they ask how do you want to die? shall I rip you limb from limb, stick you with a long metal thing, or give you a suicide pill or suck your brain out? oh well sorry you don't have a choice....

If I decided to kill an unborn baby I would have to live with it. You can't undo it and It so happens to be illegal in this country, thankfully. Yet women still have abortions they choose to travel for that abortion.

If they regret it they choose to have counseling. No amount of counseling will bring back that baby, it had its own DNA. No other baby after that baby will be.the one they got rid of.

I wont ever pity them, or feel sorry for them, they made their choice, their own free will.

gozunda

cynder wrote: »

The baby doesn't get a choice, it doesn't get a chance, it doesn't get to taste the air, it doesn't get to live, love, learn, have fun, have kids of its own, see it's grandkids, it only gets to die....
....

Yes but the unborn cannot have any realisation of such things. What you have described is a projection of feelings / thoughts to that which is not capable of such preceptions. It may sound tough but the unborn wether miscarried or otherwise - wont ever know otherwise and cant as a consequence give a fig.

Someone once asked me if It really mattered to me whether I was born or not and my answer is that it wouldn't make one bit of difference either to myself or anyone else in the big scheme of things...

Mickeroo

cynder wrote: »

If they regret it they choose to have counseling. No amount of counseling will bring back that baby, it had its own DNA.

Pretty naive to think only the ones who regret their decision want counselling.

Esoteric_

TO be honest, the majority of the pro-life posts I see here (not all of them), are spouting the same rubbish that I see pushed into my face, along with pictures of a foetus, that I see in town all the time. As such, I have nothing further to add to this thread, except this -

I have a high chance of never carrying a child to full term, or even conceiving (about 20% chance that I will). If I were to somehow have an unexpected pregnancy, I would abort with no qualms. If I use two forms of contraception (which I do), and am also 80% likely to never conceive, I have done all I can in using two forms of contraception to prevent getting pregnant (bar giving up sex, but I'm not doing that ). If I get pregnant at any point in the future, I will abort and have no qualms about doing so.

cynder

gozunda wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

The baby doesn't get a choice, it doesn't get a chance, it doesn't get to taste the air, it doesn't get to live, love, learn, have fun, have kids of its own, see it's grandkids, it only gets to die....
....

Yes but the unborn cannot have any realisation of such things. What you have described is a projection of feelings / thoughts to that which is not capable of such preceptions. It may sound tough but the unborn wether miscarried or otherwise - wont ever know otherwise and cant as a consequence give a fig.

Someone once asked me if It really mattered to me whether I was born or not and my answer is that it wouldn't make one bit of difference either to myself or anyone else in the big scheme of things...

That's because it's killed before it gets the chance.


Big scheme of things, perhaps your great great grand kids might become president or find the cure to cancer. Who knows.

Perhaps one of the aborted babies out there would have gone on to find a cure for cancer but they weren't given a chance.. I'm sure the person who finds a cure to cancer would make a difference to millions upon millions of people's lives. If that so happened to be your childor grandchild or that person is a direct descendent of yours then yes in the big scheme of things you would be very important .

charlietheminxx

cynder wrote: »

I wont ever pity them, or feel sorry for them, they made their choice, their own free will.

I don't think your pity is what they're looking for.

Dyr

cynder wrote: »

That's because it's killed before it gets the chance.


Big scheme of things, perhaps your great great grand kids might become president or find the cure to cancer. Who knows.

Perhaps one of the aborted babies out there would have gone on to find a cure for cancer but they weren't given a chance.. I'm sure the person who finds a cure to cancer would make a difference to millions upon millions of people's lives. If that so happened to be your childor grandchild or that person is a direct descendent of yours then yes in the big scheme of things you would be very important .

You're starting to remind me of the emotive nonsense that we'd be have pushed on us in school about abortion "oh no, I just found out that mammy does'nt want me, I'll never get to see the sunshine, or my brothers and sisters faces".

cynder

Mickeroo wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

If they regret it they choose to have counseling. No amount of counseling will bring back that baby, it had its own DNA.

Pretty naive to think only the ones who regret their decision want counselling.

If your 100% happy with the choice you made, why would you need counseling.

Sure your happy with the decision, and happy with the result.

Mickeroo

cynder wrote: »

If your 100% happy with the choice you made, why would you need counseling.

Sure your happy with the decision, and happy with the result.

Oh come off it, life isn't that black and white.

gozunda

cynder wrote: »

That's because it's killed before it gets the chance.

If a pregnancy does not come to term then no it is not necessarily "killed"...it is not born and there is a difference and yes You are right it does not have any ideas of what it is missing so therefore cant therefore have regrets about missing anything tbh

cynder wrote: »

Big scheme of things, perhaps your great great grand kids might become president or find the cure to cancer. Who knows.
Perhaps one of the aborted babies out there would have gone on to find a cure for cancer but they weren't given a chance.. I'm sure the person who finds a cure to cancer would make a difference to millions upon millions of people's lives. If that so happened to be your childor grandchild or that person is a direct descendent of yours then yes in the big scheme of things you would be very important .

Who knows, Perhaps, maybe, but it could turn out to be Hitlers twin brother or a scumbag just as well. Who knows - no-one knows what any foetus that is not carried to term "may" have become. It is irrelevant. In the big scheme of things (and I am refering to planetary or cosmic proportions here) it matters not one iota. In a hundred years the chances are that no one will even remember you or that you were ever alive...you will just some motes of dust swirling in the wind....

Esoteric_

cynder wrote: »

If your 100% happy with the choice you made, why would you need counseling.

Sure your happy with the decision, and happy with the result.

As has already been pointed out, not everyone is 100% happy with the decision.

I had a friend who got pregnant while still in 5th year. She used a condom, but it split. Got the morning after pill, it failed. She had an abortion because she was doing brilliantly in school and had nobody to financially or emotionally support her, and would not be able to continue her schooling.

She wants children, and hated that the had an abortion, but would not have been able to continue her schooling if she had a child, and if anyone has ever experienced being in a care home, it's apparently terrible.

She did not receive counselling, but ended up extremely depressed and in counselling several years later.

Not everyone is 100% happy with their decision and are as callous about it as a lot of pro-life people here seem to think.

Actor

Jernal wrote: »

Incest makes me feel queasy and a little uneasy and being fully honest gay men kissing and holding hands used to too. (Thankfully, not any longer.) However, as much as I don't like the vibes I get from Incest, I don't think it should be outlawed or made illegal. As long as there's mutual consent among mature adults and no grooming or underhandedness involved, then who am I to tell them what is right or wrong? (Incest leading to reproduction is another matter - but it's still an ethically grey area.) I also don't drink. I find our drink culture reproachable at times but that doesn't mean I'm going to wish for the enforcement of an all out ban on alcohol. Even though I cannot fathom why you need to get pissed off your face to have a good time.

Yeah, I guess, you could say I'm liberal. Very liberal probably, but really I think that's the only reasonable stance to have on issues that get complicated and as it turns out abortion gets very complicated. If I ask anyone "What is life?" Nobody can give me a definite answer. To use the old cliché if life truly begins at conception why doesn't death begin at total decay? Why is that a person is classed as dead when there's still a hand, limbs, brain, organs present? Yet a foetus that doesn't even have any of these is suddenly alive? What happens if that foetus fails to develop a head? Was it alive but is now dead. Was it never alive. Surely an human entity without a head isn't classed as a person. Then you've got twinning, does one person somehow magically become two? And then what happens if the twins recombine? Should we charge one of the twins with murder?

There's too many grey areas that are constantly brushed past and that's why I see abortion purely as an issue on the denial of rights issue. I think it's unfortunate that the father gets so little say but really it is an issue between the rights of the foetus and the rights of the woman. She's definitely human and if we're to be consistent assuming the foetus is a person from conception then surely the rights should be equally spread at most? I don't get how the right to life trumps the rights of another to bodily integrity. To use an analogous situation suppose I kidnap you and a female stranger and in my mad maniacal moments surgically attach her to you so she is now your only means of existing. Should she be forced to keep you alive even though her quality of life is markedly affected? It's unfortunate that you'd have to die but I don't see why the woman should be forced against her will to sustain you for nine months. Now, I appreciate you can say the difference is I forcibly attached you to the woman's body and the foetus got no say in the matter. The women herself had sex so she knew the potential risks that were at stake but then what about rape? Why does the foetus's right trumps hers here and yet if you look elsewhere in society . . .
We don't force people to give blood, we don't force mandatory vaccinations on people so that those who can't get vaccinated actually have immunity from the herd, we don't force mandatory organ donations, yet here on nothing more than religious speculation,potentiality and fears, we force a woman into a course of action she might not necessarily have wanted.
All because we supposedly care about everyone's right to life? It's hypocritical. If life really is so precious why don't we show it everywhere where there's unquestionably life? Why is that only when the possibility for life is concerned we harp off all the things about rights, concerns, morality, ethics. My personal viewpoint, if the best a person can offer is that the foetus has the "potential" then I'm the potential overlord of this planet and you should regard me as such right now. A potential person isn't an actual person, the logic in the claim is ludicrous. And if you truly believe life begins at conception then you'd have to admit that when given the choice between saving a live newborn kitten (not a human, not ever going to be a person) or a vessel containing 100 embryos that can be readily implanted for gestation from a burning inferno, you'd save the vessel because that's would result in saving 100 lives. Even if the number of embryonic cells numbered in the billions, I'd save the kitten and I hate cats.

So even though abortion still makes me feel morally queasy at times*, I still think that choice should be there for everyone to make. It's too grey an area to blanketly declare a position on one way or the other. Until there's some consistency and reasonableness in someone's framework for either side I plan to remain neutral on the issue but by default that means I can't deny a woman her right to choose for herself.

*My position on it changes almost weekly. The question I keep asking myself at what point in the burning inferno scenario would I sacrifice the kitten? How old would the foetus have to be? Even that scenario is only really examining my intuitions. When I try to examine it rationally it gets even harder again. In all these cases though I still don't consider the foetus a person - so no, I don't think I'll ever consider it murder.

/lunchtime rant over.

What a strange, weird post.

Of course if you're pro gay marriage, a logical extension is that you're pro incestuous relationships. I'll commend you for being consistent up your logical dark alleyway.

Actor

LyndaMcL wrote: »

As has already been pointed out, not everyone is 100% happy with the decision.

I had a friend who got pregnant while still in 5th year. She used a condom, but it split. Got the morning after pill, it failed. She had an abortion because she was doing brilliantly in school and had nobody to financially or emotionally support her, and would not be able to continue her schooling.

That's a fallacy. She could have had the child and continued her schooling a year later. Sounds like her parents coerced her into having an abortion (no doubt they paid for it) so as to avoid scandal amongst the neighbours.

LyndaMcL wrote: »

She wants children, and hated that the had an abortion, but would not have been able to continue her schooling if she had a child, and if anyone has ever experienced being in a care home, it's apparently terrible.

She did not receive counselling, but ended up extremely depressed and in counselling several years later.

Hardly surprising. She (and her parents) will live with this for the rest of their lives.

Actor

Mickeroo wrote: »

Oh come off it, life isn't that black and white.

It kinda is actually. Live begins at the moment of conception and ends when you're dead. There is no in-between.

Actor

cynder wrote: »

We do not need to support them, they make a choice live with it,it it's that hard to make then they know it's wrong but they brainwash themselves to make them think it's right.. If you continue to tell yourself something over and over you believe it.

The IFPA are experts at brain-washing young women into believing that killing is a solution to an illegitimate pregnancy.

cynder

gozunda wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

That's because it's killed before it gets the chance.

If a pregnancy does not come to term then no it is not necessarily "killed"...it is not born and there is a difference and yes You are right it does not have any ideas of what it is missing so therefore cant therefore have regrets about missing anything tbh

cynder wrote: »

Big scheme of things, perhaps your great great grand kids might become president or find the cure to cancer. Who knows.
Perhaps one of the aborted babies out there would have gone on to find a cure for cancer but they weren't given a chance.. I'm sure the person who finds a cure to cancer would make a difference to millions upon millions of people's lives. If that so happened to be your childor grandchild or that person is a direct descendent of yours then yes in the big scheme of things you would be very important .

Who knows, Perhaps, maybe, but it could turn out to be Hitlers twin brother or a scumbag just as well. Who knows - no-one knows what any foetus that is not carried to term "may" have become. It is irrelevant. In the big scheme of things (and I am refering to planetary or cosmic proportions here) it matters not one iota. In a hundred years the chances are that no one will even remember you or that you were ever alive...you will just some motes of dust swirling in the wind....

But the here and now matters, to me, to my kids,The day to day interactions. I couldn't give a s**t about when I'm dead and turn to dust. I'll be dead but at least I lived, found love, had fun, lived my life to the fullest. Life today does matter, making my kids happy, keeping them healthy letting them have a good life before they too turn to dust.

Esoteric_

Actor wrote: »

That's a fallacy. She could have had the child and continued her schooling a year later. Sounds like her parents coerced her into having an abortion (no doubt they paid for it) so as to avoid scandal amongst the neighbours.



Hardly surprising. She (and her parents) will live with this for the rest of their lives.

Actually, at the age of 16, there was no way she could continue her schooling later because firstly, she had no financial support at home, and if she waited til she became eligible for dole, she wouldn't be able to afford childcare to do her exams and go to college. She did the math before making her decision. Her parents did not pay for her abortion. Her father had no idea she was pregnant, and I gave her my savings to pay for it, then she told her mother that she had a miscarriage.

Silly assumptions to make.

Mickeroo

Actor wrote: »

It kinda is actually. Live begins at the moment of conception and ends when you're dead. There is no in-between.

Thats got nothing to do with what I was talking about, but don't let me interrupt when you're on such a roll.

Corkfeen

Actor wrote: »

It kinda is actually. Live begins at the moment of conception and ends when you're dead. There is no in-between.

That wasn't even what he was responding to. You seem to enter topics to simply twist posts and be entirely judgmental of those who choose to have an abortion and don't appear to give a legitimate response to criticisms of your posts.

gozunda

Actor wrote: »

It kinda is actually. Live begins at the moment of conception and ends when you're dead. There is no in-between.

Thats your belief and not everyone agrees....there is a lot more "to life" than just being born or even concieved. the old question "what is the meaning of life" is the one we as a species need to go out their and work out properly and not just presume we are someway special because we happen to exist and can reproduce...

Turtwig

cynder wrote: »

That's because it's killed before it gets the chance.


Big scheme of things, perhaps your great great grand kids might become president or find the cure to cancer. Who knows.

Perhaps one of the aborted babies out there would have gone on to find a cure for cancer but they weren't given a chance.. I'm sure the person who finds a cure to cancer would make a difference to millions upon millions of people's lives. If that so happened to be your childor grandchild or that person is a direct descendent of yours then yes in the big scheme of things you would be very important .

It might interest to know that between 60% of all embryos are aborted. (Some surveys put that as high as 80%).The fact you have had 2 (or more?) kids suggest you probably had between one to three abortions. The majority of women you see in the street everyday around has, or will at some point, also denied all these embryos that chance . . .

Actor

cynder wrote: »

But the here and now matters, to me, to my kids,The day to day interactions. I couldn't give a s**t about when I'm dead and turn to dust. I'll be dead but at least I lived, found love, had fun, lived my life to the fullest. Life today does matter, making my kids happy, keeping them healthy letting them have a good life before they too turn to dust.

What a shallow, nihilistic perspective on life. The pursuit of endless happiness is the ultimate pursuit of consumers living in consumer society. Did you ever stop to think why we exist and what our Creator has planned for us?

Mickeroo

Actor wrote: »

What a shallow, nihilistic perspective on life. The pursuit of endless happiness is the ultimate pursuit of consumers living in consumer society. Did you ever stop to think why we exist and what our Creator has planned for us?

There it is folks!!

cynder

LyndaMcL wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

If your 100% happy with the choice you made, why would you need counseling.

Sure your happy with the decision, and happy with the result.

As has already been pointed out, not everyone is 100% happy with the decision.

I had a friend who got pregnant while still in 5th year. She used a condom, but it split. Got the morning after pill, it failed. She had an abortion because she was doing brilliantly in school and had nobody to financially or emotionally support her, and would not be able to continue her schooling.

She wants children, and hated that the had an abortion, but would not have been able to continue her schooling if she had a child, and if anyone has ever experienced being in a care home, it's apparently terrible.

She did not receive counselling, but ended up extremely depressed and in counselling several years later.

Not everyone is 100% happy with their decision and are as callous about it as a lot of pro-life people here seem to think.

As I said I was a teen had my child, did my schooling from 22-24, its not impossible.

Of course I bet this wasn't explained to her.

Turtwig

Mickeroo wrote: »

There it is folks!!

But there was no mention of sodomy that time.

Actor

Jernal wrote: »

It might interest to know that between 60% of all embryos are aborted. (Some surveys put that as high as 80%).The fact you have had 2 (or more?) kids suggest you probably had between one to three abortions. The majority of women you see in the street everyday around has, or will at some point, also denied all these embryos that chance . . .

Maybe in the UK/USA (where being a black unborn child is particularly dangerous). But think of all the crime that's being supressed! (so say militant pro-choicers...) Thankfully here in Ireland, abortion is a crime, and the figures aren't quite so startling.

Mickeroo

cynder wrote: »

As I said I was a teen had my child, did my schooling from 22-24, its not impossible.

Of course I bet this wasn't explained to her.

Or, just possibly, her situation was a bit different to yours. Just throwing that out there as daft as it sounds.

Actor

Mickeroo wrote: »

There it is folks!!

As a moderator, I'd have expected you to come up with something more deep and meaningful. Then again, this is AH and you probably feel right at home alongside like-minded goons.

gozunda

cynder wrote: »

But the here and now matters, to me, to my kids,The day to day interactions. I couldn't give a s**t about when I'm dead and turn to dust. I'll be dead but at least I lived, found love, had fun, lived my life to the fullest. Life today does matter, making my kids happy, keeping them healthy letting them have a good life before they too turn to dust.

Well then you wont care if you were never born either...and when you are dead, you wont care either! We are genitically programmed to want to reproduce so your thoughts there are fairly understandable I suppose, however if you insist that all the products conception are sacred or special then this is when things start to become a little absurd....

Actor

cynder wrote: »

As I said I was a teen had my child, did my schooling from 22-24, its not impossible.

Of course I bet this wasn't explained to her.

Sounds to me like it's her parents with the most blood on their hands.