Abortion

Sponge25

charlietheminxx wrote: »

You seem to have very drastic views and make statements calling for exectution and calling people evil. I'm going to agree that you are either much younger than you say (as already suggested) or a troll.

OMG, why would I say i'm twenty-five if I wasn't! I have a friend who was raped by her neighbour and it ruined her life untill she was in her twenties so I have strong views about it. They should die for it!

Sponge25

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Why should there be any distinction? Rape is rape, it is no greater or lesser a crime if its against a woman you dont know or your wife.

Ofcourse there's no distinction but I can't help feeling a girl who doesn't sleep around is raped by a stranger is far worse than a junkie who sleeps with 10 men a day for money is raped, it's just one more man for the junkie but the girl who doesn't sleep around and a good girl would be ruined! I hope this doesn't sound bad I'm not trying to make a distinction just trying too get a point accross. Do ya know what I mean? Like rape is rape and both rapists should get the same sentence!

Sponge25

Stark wrote: »

Aren't you the lucky one? I've made it through 30 years of life without any debilitation diseases. Sure not getting sick is not that hard.

Nope she's not the lucky one, she's the responsible one! Like me and my gf, we have sex all the time but she never gets pregnant cause we're not ready for a baby but by some chance she did, we'd be happy and wouldn't even CONSIDER having an abortion!

Sponge25

LyndaMcL wrote: »

TO be honest, the majority of the pro-life posts I see here (not all of them), are spouting the same rubbish that I see pushed into my face, along with pictures of a foetus, that I see in town all the time. As such, I have nothing further to add to this thread, except this -

I have a high chance of never carrying a child to full term, or even conceiving (about 20% chance that I will). If I were to somehow have an unexpected pregnancy, I would abort with no qualms. If I use two forms of contraception (which I do), and am also 80% likely to never conceive, I have done all I can in using two forms of contraception to prevent getting pregnant (bar giving up sex, but I'm not doing that ). If I get pregnant at any point in the future, I will abort and have no qualms about doing so.

Would you not like feel a little guilty that you're robbing a baby of his/her probably long and successful life? Also, this question isn't directed at you in paticular but to the threat! Is having a late-term abortion acceptable too abortion supporters here? If the baby can survive outside the womb (albeit with medical support or intervention) would it be acceptable to terminate the baby which by that stage I don't think anyone can argue they wouldn't be killing the baby!

RDM_83 again

LyndaMcL wrote: »

Re-read it, then. Majority does not = all.

Can this also be acceptable for posts on gender issues etc too please

EmzBoBo wrote: »

2: Their is absolutely NO LINK on their page to any PEER REVIEWED MEDICAL JOURNALS (or, indeed, any other unbiased information), to prove their point, and they refuse point blank to provide any links to medical journals etc, that would supposidly prove their point, they'll only ever link back to their own page, and lets face it, their page is very biased in favour of their own arguement.


4: ...Now that, IS, in fact, a "downright lie" - in 2012, Rep.of Ireland was listed as the 15th (out of 22 countries in Europe) safest place to have a child in, and countries listed above us actually have legalised abortion! (Can't find the document at the moment, will post it later if I get a chance).... hardly the "safest place in the world to have a child" that YD like to harp on about...

Ok took a quick look at that article, and not defending YD at all here and I know they come out with some dubious statements to further agenda. But
they do link to the interview with the Dr in question (its an irish independent article ) and they do link to the World Healths Organizations data to support their argument about Ireland being a very safe place to give birth (note in the argument they say the world not Europe!)

And looking at data from the world bank,
Maternal mortality ratio (modeled estimate, per 100,000 live births)

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.STA.MMRT

Ireland is the 13-16th safest country in the world (there's a few non-EU countries ahead of it) to have a child,ahead of a lot of countries that would be generally considered to have a superior health service, France, Denmark,Norway, Switzerland the UK etc.
If you could dig out your article that would be great.

Overall though I can' see how you can refute the statement that Ireland does enjoy some of the lowest maternal mortality rates in the world and looking at the figures I linked to average for the EU.

up for anything

Sponge25 wrote: »

Ofcourse there's no distinction but I can't help feeling a girl who doesn't sleep around is raped by a stranger is far worse than a junkie who sleeps with 10 men a day for money is raped, it's just one more man for the junkie but the girl who doesn't sleep around and a good girl would be ruined! I hope this doesn't sound bad I'm not trying to make a distinction just trying too get a point accross. Do ya know what I mean? Like rape is rape and both rapists should get the same sentence!

Keep your point! "just one more man..." :rolleyes::mad:

Sponge25 wrote: »

Would you not like feel a little guilty that you're robbing a baby of his/her probably long and successful life? Also, this question isn't directed at you in paticular but to the threat! Is having a late-term abortion acceptable too abortion supporters here? If the baby can survive outside the womb (albeit with medical support or intervention) would it be acceptable to terminate the baby which by that stage I don't think anyone can argue they wouldn't be killing the baby!

How do you propose to get it out of the womb to keep it alive with medical support or intervention if the woman isn't willing?

eviltwin

cynder wrote: »

If your 100% happy with the choice you made, why would you need counseling.

Sure your happy with the decision, and happy with the result.

A friend of mine recently broke up with her boyfriend. He treated her like dirt and she knew he would never change so she ended it. She knows she deserves better and that her life will be a much calmer place without him. She is glad he is gone but she is still heartbroken, she spent about a month crying and coming to terms with the end of it. It doesn't mean she wants him back or regrets ending the relationship.

Its the same with an abortion. You can know deep down it was the right thing to do but you can feel angry at the situation, angry at the way you were forced to travel, hurt by people's reactions, you can wonder if it was in fact the right thing, you might be dealing with some kind of physical trauma if it was a painful procedure etc etc

Every single woman or man who goes for counselling will have their own individual issues.

Anything life changing can have a mental impact and the sensible thing to do is address it before it takes over your life.

Esoteric_

Sponge25 wrote: »

Would you not like feel a little guilty that you're robbing a baby of his/her probably long and successful life? Also, this question isn't directed at you in paticular but to the threat! Is having a late-term abortion acceptable too abortion supporters here? If the baby can survive outside the womb (albeit with medical support or intervention) would it be acceptable to terminate the baby which by that stage I don't think anyone can argue they wouldn't be killing the baby!

No, I wouldn't feel guilty because I have absolutely no certainty about what the potential child's life would be like.

As far as late term abortions go - If the foetus/child could survive potentially (with medical intervention), I would not have an abortion that late. I'm of the belief that once the heartbeat starts (in or around 16 weeks AFAIK), the foetus is alive.

Sponge25

up for anything wrote: »

Keep your point! "just one more man..." :rolleyes::mad:



How do you propose to get it out of the womb to keep it alive with medical support or intervention if the woman isn't willing?

That's not the point, if the baby is viable outside the mother it's alive and "terminating" it would be ending it's life! Sounds a little like murder huh!?

Sponge25

eviltwin wrote: »

A friend of mine recently broke up with her boyfriend. He treated her like dirt and she knew he would never change so she ended it. She knows she deserves better and that her life will be a much calmer place without him. She is glad he is gone but she is still heartbroken, she spent about a month crying and coming to terms with the end of it. It doesn't mean she wants him back or regrets ending the relationship.

Its the same with an abortion. You can know deep down it was the right thing to do but you can feel angry at the situation, angry at the way you were forced to travel, hurt by people's reactions, you can wonder if it was in fact the right thing, you might be dealing with some kind of physical trauma if it was a painful procedure etc etc

Every single woman or man who goes for counselling will have their own individual issues.

Anything life changing can have a mental impact and the sensible thing to do is address it before it takes over your life.

My GF used to be treated like dirt by her ex, he always cheated on her, never slept with her, wouldn't snuggle up with her etc. and like basically abused her and treated her like **** so she was heart broken and didn't love him anymore and I was helping her and now we're together for ages:)

Sponge25

LyndaMcL wrote: »

No, I wouldn't feel guilty because I have absolutely no certainty about what the potential child's life would be like.

As far as late term abortions go - If the foetus/child could survive potentially (with medical intervention), I would not have an abortion that late. I'm of the belief that once the heartbeat starts (in or around 16 weeks AFAIK), the foetus is alive.

No one has any certainty about anything in life but there's a good chance the baby would want to live! That's almost certain!

If people want to have abortions at the end of the day they can but it's something I feel strong about unless the girl or baby was gonna die or be VERY sick or the girl got raped in which case the rapists 'forced' an abortion upon her and it's entirely the rapist who's to blame. When it comes to the X case, the poor little girl was entirely entitled to have an abortion IMO! Although I would've REALLY respected her if she carried it and adopted it away but I still have great respect for her having the courage to live on!

up for anything

Sponge25 wrote: »

That's not the point, if the baby is viable outside the mother it's alive and "terminating" it would be ending it's life! Sounds a little like murder huh!?

That is the point, it is not alive or viable until it's outside the mother. How would you propose to wrest this potential life from her without her will or consent?

As for sounding a little like murder - given your judgmental opinions on the subject of rape I wouldn't give two figs for what you consider to be murder. :rolleyes:

Sponge25

up for anything wrote: »

That is the point, it is not alive or viable until it's outside the mother. How would you propose to wrest this potential life from her without her will or consent?

As for sounding a little like murder - given your judgmental opinions on the subject of rape I wouldn't give two figs for what you consider to be murder. :rolleyes:

Anyone who isn't judgmental about rape ought to be locked up! Isn't it something everyone hates?

All doctors agree at some point the baby is viable outside the womb, I thought this was common sense? Some babies are born as early as 6.5months etc! Probably younger for all I know and survive!

Edit: the earliest baby born was 21 weeks and five days and looked remarkably healthy! So no one can argue that the baby isn't viable outside the womb unless it's born! That's not the point at all, the point is the baby is VIABLE and ALIVE but inside the womb, terminate the baby and you kill a living baby! Just cause it's not outside the womb doesn't mean it's not alive!

Edit: Also people who are having abortions DID consent to being pregnant by having sex!

cynder

eviltwin wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

If your 100% happy with the choice you made, why would you need counseling.

Sure your happy with the decision, and happy with the result.

A friend of mine recently broke up with her boyfriend. He treated her like dirt and she knew he would never change so she ended it. She knows she deserves better and that her life will be a much calmer place without him. She is glad he is gone but she is still heartbroken, she spent about a month crying and coming to terms with the end of it. It doesn't mean she wants him back or regrets ending the relationship.

Its the same with an abortion. You can know deep down it was the right thing to do but you can feel angry at the situation, angry at the way you were forced to travel, hurt by people's reactions, you can wonder if it was in fact the right thing, you might be dealing with some kind of physical trauma if it was a painful procedure etc etc

Every single woman or man who goes for counselling will have their own individual issues.

Anything life changing can have a mental impact and the sensible thing to do is address it before it takes over your life.

Angry that they had to travel, do you want home abortions now? Of course they had to travel. They need counseling because they have to travel. I wonder if they need counseling if they ever go abroad on holiday or to work.

Most don't openly admit to it do they dont get abuse or hateful comments, or reactions that might hurt them.

Getting tonsils out doesn't require counseling. As people have said it's only a bunch of cells, well so are tonsils. Same could be Said for a smear test.

Not to many need counseling after a break up. A small few do. Did your friend need in depth counseling? I don't know 1 single person who needed counseling because they broke up with someone. Yes it does happen but again only a small few and the shorter they are going out the easier it is to get over it, 12 weeks is a short time to be going out with someone.

Esoteric_

cynder wrote: »

Angry that they had to travel, do you want home abortions now? Of course they had to travel. They need counseling because they have to travel. I wonder if they need counseling if they ever go abroad on holiday or to work.

Most don't openly admit to it do they dont get abuse or hateful comments, or reactions that might hurt them.

Getting tonsils out doesn't require counseling. As people have said it's only.a bunch of cells, well so are tonsils.

You really seem to like twisting valid arguments to suit your own agenda.

Getting tonsils out doesn't require counselling as it's a bunch of cells?

Cancer is a bunch of cells. Plenty of people need counselling after surviving cancer. :rolleyes:

Ahava

LyndaMcL wrote: »

No, I wouldn't feel guilty because I have absolutely no certainty about what the potential child's life would be like.

As far as late term abortions go - If the foetus/child could survive potentially (with medical intervention), I would not have an abortion that late. I'm of the belief that once the heartbeat starts (in or around 16 weeks AFAIK), the foetus is alive.

In that case you need to know that the heart begins to beat only 3 weeks and 1 day after fertilization - which is the 5th week of pregnancy. This is on average about 1 week after the missed period.

cynder

LyndaMcL wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

Angry that they had to travel, do you want home abortions now? Of course they had to travel. They need counseling because they have to travel. I wonder if they need counseling if they ever go abroad on holiday or to work.

Most don't openly admit to it do they dont get abuse or hateful comments, or reactions that might hurt them.

Getting tonsils out doesn't require counseling. As people have said it's only.a bunch of cells, well so are tonsils.

You really seem to like twisting valid arguments to suit your own agenda.

Getting tonsils out doesn't require counselling as it's a bunch of cells?

Cancer is a bunch of cells. Plenty of people need counselling after surviving cancer. :rolleyes:

As I believe everyone does. Husband had cancer no counseling, many avail of counseling during treatment because there is a chance they might die . Only a handfill of women are at risk if dying from a pregnancy.

Esoteric_

Ahava wrote: »

In that case you need to know that the heart begins to beat only 3 weeks and 1 day after fertilization - which is the 5th week of pregnancy. This is on average about 1 week after the missed period.

Any links to a medical journal, clarifying this? It completely over-rides what I was taught in college and what my GP told me when I questioned her.

Napper Hawkins

Sponge25 wrote: »

Anyone who isn't judgmental about rape ought to be locked up! Isn't it something everyone hates?

All doctors agree at some point the baby is viable outside the womb, I thought this was common sense? Some babies are born as early as 6.5months etc! Probably younger for all I know and survive!

Edit: the earliest baby born was 21 weeks and five days and looked remarkably healthy! So no one can argue that the baby isn't viable outside the womb unless it's born! That's not the point at all, the point is the baby is VIABLE and ALIVE but inside the womb, terminate the baby and you kill a living baby! Just cause it's not outside the womb doesn't mean it's not alive!

Edit: Also people who are having abortions DID consent to being pregnant by having sex!

Says you, after asking literally everyone who has had sex, ever.

cynder

Ahava wrote: »

LyndaMcL wrote: »

No, I wouldn't feel guilty because I have absolutely no certainty about what the potential child's life would be like.

As far as late term abortions go - If the foetus/child could survive potentially (with medical intervention), I would not have an abortion that late. I'm of the belief that once the heartbeat starts (in or around 16 weeks AFAIK), the foetus is alive.

In that case you need to know that the heart begins to beat only 3 weeks and 1 day after fertilization - which is the 5th week of pregnancy. This is on average about 1 week after the missed period.

18 days from conception, I doubt this info will change her mind or the ones who thanked her comment.

Brainwashed !

Sponge25

Napper Hawkins wrote: »

Says you, after asking literally everyone who has had sex, ever.

What? Try to make sense please!

cynder

LyndaMcL wrote: »

Ahava wrote: »

In that case you need to know that the heart begins to beat only 3 weeks and 1 day after fertilization - which is the 5th week of pregnancy. This is on average about 1 week after the missed period.

Any links to a medical journal, clarifying this? It completely over-rides what I was taught in college and what my GP told me when I questioned her.

I believe the heartbeat can only be heard after 16 weeks.

Sponge25

cynder wrote: »

I believe the heartbeat can only be heard after 16 weeks.

Well the most premature born baby was 21 weeks and five days and some woman have abortions after that in America!

Napper Hawkins

Sponge25 wrote: »

What? Try to make sense please!

Take your own advice.

eviltwin

cynder wrote: »

Angry that they had to travel, do you want home abortions now? Of course they had to travel. They need counseling because they have to travel. I wonder if they need counseling if they ever go abroad on holiday or to work.

Most don't openly admit to it do they dont get abuse or hateful comments, or reactions that might hurt them.

Getting tonsils out doesn't require counseling. As people have said it's only a bunch of cells, well so are tonsils. Same could be Said for a smear test.

Not to many need counseling after a break up. A small few do. Did your friend need in depth counseling? I don't know 1 single person who needed counseling because they broke up with someone. Yes it does happen but again only a small few and the shorter they are going out the easier it is to get over it, 12 weeks is a short time to be going out with someone.

Is my post not clear enough for you ?

As I said in the post everyone's reasons are their own. Those were MY reasons for needing counselling. I resented being forced to go overseas, I was under enough stress without that and I felt scared and alone.

I was upset when people I told used it against me. I had to deal with comments about what a bad mother I was and how I didn't deserve anymore children. I know now that those comments said more about them than me but when I was emotionally vulnerable it was easy to believe them. Same goes for the similar posts I would hear on the radio, in the paper, even on boards at times.

I actually thought your question was a genuine one, that you wanted to understand why people who choose abortion need counselling. Now I can see you just want to use it to twist for your own agenda. I won't be posting my experiences again.

Sponge25

eviltwin wrote: »

Is my post not clear enough for you ?

As I said in the post everyone's reasons are their own. Those were MY reasons for needing counselling. I resented being forced to go overseas, I was under enough stress without that and I felt scared and alone.

I was upset when people I told used it against me. I had to deal with comments about what a bad mother I was and how I didn't deserve anymore children. I know now that those comments said more about them than me but when I was emotionally vulnerable it was easy to believe them. Same goes for the similar posts I would hear on the radio, in the paper, even on boards at times.

I actually thought your question was a genuine one, that you wanted to understand why people who choose abortion need counselling. Now I can see you just want to use it to twist for your own agenda. I won't be posting my experiences again.

Can a girl have an abortion in Ireland if she's gonna die or has been raped etc? I know there's no abortion clinics but has it ever happened!?

cynder

Sponge25 wrote: »

eviltwin wrote: »

Is my post not clear enough for you ?

As I said in the post everyone's reasons are their own. Those were MY reasons for needing counselling. I resented being forced to go overseas, I was under enough stress without that and I felt scared and alone.

I was upset when people I told used it against me. I had to deal with comments about what a bad mother I was and how I didn't deserve anymore children. I know now that those comments said more about them than me but when I was emotionally vulnerable it was easy to believe them. Same goes for the similar posts I would hear on the radio, in the paper, even on boards at times.

I actually thought your question was a genuine one, that you wanted to understand why people who choose abortion need counselling. Now I can see you just want to use it to twist for your own agenda. I won't be posting my experiences again.

Can a girl have an abortion in Ireland if she's gonna die or has been raped etc? I know there's no abortion clinics but has it ever happened!?

A friend of mine had a baby with a heart.defect it was to die soon after birth she was offered an abortion in Ireland, she refused, baby lived less than 18 mins, but they gave her a chance, they saw her, hugged her, kissed her and buried her. She had a name. She was a person.

Sponge25

cynder wrote: »

A friend of mine had a baby with a heart.defect it was to die soon after birth she was offered an abortion in Ireland, she refused, baby lived less than 18 mins, but they gave her a chance, they saw her, hugged her, kissed her and buried her. She had a name. She was a person.

Ah, well done to her. I'd refuse too if I was a girl. (unless the baby was gonna suffer really badly)

Atleast the baby got a hug from its mum but it must have been REALLLLLY hard on the parents!

RDM_83 again

cynder wrote: »

I believe the heartbeat can only be heard after 16 weeks.

In this study they use heart activity as a detection method at 6 weeks (though I'm sure this is using sensitive equipment).
http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/18/9/1937.full
(sorry if off topic but LyndaMcL looking for a reliable source). Is heart beat a particularly important indicator of anything though?

In relation to the counseling issue, is this argument taking place in a hypothetical context or a real world one, because though I'd fully support the funding of counseling for woman that have had an abortion (in fact I think in an ideal world counseling should be available to basically everybody that wants it), in Ireland today however with the shockingly high levels of suicide in younger men and a climate of reduced funding, to be harsh I don't think resources should be prioritized towards it at the expense of other mental health related funding

Sponge25

EvilTwin: Ya have to understand some people have very strong feelings about it and that's why they said things that hurt ya. Ya don't have to not post your experience:( I kinda understand a bit more but I still don't think it's right so atleast ya made a person like me think about it more!

eviltwin

cynder wrote: »

A friend of mine had a baby with a heart.defect it was to die soon after birth she was offered an abortion in Ireland, she refused, baby lived less than 18 mins, but they gave her a chance, they saw her, hugged her, kissed her and buried her. She had a name. She was a person.

It takes a very strong person to do that. When you are pregnant you almost become public property in a way, people stop you and ask you questions all the time....I don't know how I would cope with all that knowing my baby wouldn't live. And having to go to hospitals for check ups etc and have to see other women with their pregnancies or babies....I hope that she was treated sensitively.

But for a woman who chooses abortion, she too can spend time with her baby...many of the UK hospitals allow couples to keep the baby overnight, they encourage parents to dress and hold the baby, take photos etc

Don't think that a family in that same situation who takes another path doesn't mourn their child or dehumanises them. Its a loss for them regardless of circumstances.

RDM_83 again

Sponge25 wrote: »

Can a girl have an abortion in Ireland if she's gonna die or has been raped etc? I know there's no abortion clinics but has it ever happened!?

From my understanding of it, if the pregnancy is not viable its not an abortion as such (previous post of mine addressed this issue of definition), as such these procedures do occur when there is a risk to the mothers health. Now there maybe issues 'on the ground' so to speak in Ireland (I know of an example where the procedure could have taken place in Ireland but it was quicker and easier for it to occur in the UK).
Personally I don;t get how anyone pro-choice or pro-life could oppose an improvement in Irelands Health service in relation to these issues (referring to the clear cut cases of non-viability).

Ahava

LyndaMcL wrote: »

Any links to a medical journal, clarifying this? It completely over-rides what I was taught in college and what my GP told me when I questioned her.

This information is widely available. Here is a link to a website providing an overview of fetal development and also has links to scientific research.

A standard ultrasound will detect a heartbeat at 6-7 weeks, thus confirming viability of pregnancy. Sometimes the heartbeat isn't clearly visible until the week 8 but the vast majority of heartbeats are clearly seen around 6 weeks (that's 4 weeks after conception).

Dyr

LyndaMcL wrote: »

Ahava wrote: »

In that case you need to know that the heart begins to beat only 3 weeks and 1 day after fertilization - which is the 5th week of pregnancy. This is on average about 1 week after the missed period.

Any links to a medical journal, clarifying this? It completely over-rides what I was taught in college and what my GP told me when I questioned her.

are you asking people for scientific proof of something they know in their heart of hearts? this is an abortion debate we'll
have no requests for proof here.

Sponge25

RDM_83 again wrote: »

From my understanding of it, if the pregnancy is not viable its not an abortion as such (previous post of mine addressed this issue of definition), as such these procedures do occur when there is a risk to the mothers health. Now there maybe issues 'on the ground' so to speak in Ireland (I know of an example where the procedure could have taken place in Ireland but it was quicker and easier for it to occur in the UK).
Personally I don;t get how anyone pro-choice or pro-life could oppose an improvement in Irelands Health service in relation to these issues (referring to the clear cut cases of non-viability).

I just don't want in my heart for any babies to die, wether trough abortion or otherwise. (Unless ofcourse it was due to rape, in which case the rapist forced the abortion upon the lady. and/or the baby is very sick and gonna die or the mother is gonna die.)

It's abortion wether the baby is viable or not! Not just to me but even if pro-abortion people!

RDM_83 again

Sponge25 wrote: »

I just don't want in my heart for any babies to die, wether trough abortion or otherwise. (Unless ofcourse it was due to rape, in which case the rapist forced the abortion upon the lady. and/or the baby is very sick and gonna die or the mother is gonna die.)

It's abortion wether the baby is viable or not! Not just to me but even if pro-abortion people!

I don't think anybody (well by anybody I exclude a select few crazy "feminist"* commentators and the CCP) is really that happy with the idea of babies,fetus's, bunches of cells etc dying but its a difference of opinion on rights and/or the imposition of values upon other people.

Just because a lot of people misunderstand a definition doesn't change the definition e.g pedophilia vs pederasty



* not tarring feminists or pro-choice people referring to a certain Guardian commentator who would self identify as feminist (she;s been brought up in the thread before somewhere)

RDM_83 again

e.g. in an ectopic pregnancy will have to be operated on for the mother to survive, the termination of the fetus is not the goal of the operation, this is different to a situation such as the termination of the fetus in relation to rape/incest where the direct goal is the termination of the fetus (I'm not making a value judgement here btw).
Of course it could be argued that all pregnancy/childbirth is a risk to a mothers life/quality of life which is why even though the UK laws appear quite strict 200,000 occur a year in the UK (the UK is interesting because if the letter of the law was applied differently there could be a regime that would not satisfy many pro-choice people as abortion is only an option on the assessment of medical professionals)

Sponge25

RDM_83 again wrote: »

e.g. in an ectopic pregnancy will have to be operated on for the mother to survive, the termination of the fetus is not the goal of the operation, this is different to a situation such as the termination of the fetus in relation to rape/incest where the direct goal is the termination of the fetus (I'm not making a value judgement here btw).
Of course it could be argued that all pregnancy/childbirth is a risk to a mothers life/quality of life which is why even though the UK laws appear quite strict 200,000 occur a year in the UK (the UK is interesting because if the letter of the law was applied differently there could be a regime that would not satisfy many pro-choice people as abortion is only an option on the assessment of medical professionals)

200,000 per year? Damn that's alot! I thought it was something like 4000-5000max!

Chain_reaction

cynder wrote: »

A friend of mine had a baby with a heart.defect it was to die soon after birth she was offered an abortion in Ireland, she refused, baby lived less than 18 mins, but they gave her a chance, they saw her, hugged her, kissed her and buried her. She had a name. She was a person.

What is the point of posting this if you don't mind me asking?


I've a feeling you're throwing that out there to make women who chose to end pregnancies in those circumstances feel guilty.


To add to that are you sure she was offered to end the pregnancy on Irish shores??

Helix

cynder wrote: »

A friend of mine had a baby with a heart.defect it was to die soon after birth she was offered an abortion in Ireland, she refused, baby lived less than 18 mins, but they gave her a chance, they saw her, hugged her, kissed her and buried her. She had a name. She was a person.

those 18 minutes can't have been pleasant for the child

it's a bit selfish making it live through that no?

Esoteric_

cynder wrote: »

I believe the heartbeat can only be heard after 16 weeks.

You believe. You don't know.

Again, I asked for factual links to back this up, as I only know what I was taught, which is not always foolproof.


Read back some of your posts, and call me brainwashed again.

If I'm brainwashed, I'm sure as hell not the only one.



Oh and as far as brainwashing goes - my family are all adamantly pro-life. I am the only person in my family and my extended family who is pro-choice. I made my own decisions. If I wanted to be brainwashed, I'd still be pro-life as I was as a child.

Esoteric_

Bambi wrote: »

are you asking people for scientific proof of something they know in their heart of hearts? this is an abortion debate we'll
have no requests for proof here.

:pac::pac::pac:

RDM_83 again

Sponge25 wrote: »

200,000 per year? Damn that's alot! I thought it was something like 4000-5000max!

About that number travel to the UK from Ireland each year maybe thats what your thinking off?

If your shocked by that figure, the fact that 2600 are on the 4th one will probably surprise you even more.*

Yeah to be honest I'm not particularly opposed to abortion as such (at an early term not simply pre 24 weeks) but I don;t like the idea of it being an extremely common place procedure however this is a position I can not rationalize very well (and so tend not to state it in debates such as this) as its ethically and morally very murky, its much easier to justify a more absolute pro-life or extremely pro-choice position morally and ethically.

* yes daily mail link but they don;t tend to directly lie about figures
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1281269/Number-abortions-UK-falls-48-women-SEVEN.html

RDM_83 again

LyndaMcL wrote: »

You believe. You don't know.

Again, I asked for factual links to back this up, as I only know what I was taught, which is not always foolproof.
.

In fairness both myself and Ahava have posted pretty authoritative links since you asked for facts which show early heart activity.

Esoteric_

RDM_83 again wrote: »

In fairness both myself and Ahava have posted pretty authoritative links since you asked for facts which show early heart activity.

My bad. I think I thanked yours, although can't remember. I posted that post before reading back on the thread.

cynder

LyndaMcL wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

I believe the heartbeat can only be heard after 16 weeks.

You believe. You don't know.

Again, I asked for factual links to back this up, as I only know what I was taught, which is not always foolproof.


Read back some of your posts, and call me brainwashed again.

If I'm brainwashed, I'm sure as hell not the only one.



Oh and as far as brainwashing goes - my family are all adamantly pro-life. I am the only person in my family and my extended family who is pro-choice. I made my own decisions. If I wanted to be brainwashed, I'd still be pro-life as I was as a child.

Yes I believe I can't remember the week I was when I first heard my babies heart beat but I was around 16 weeks, I know I saw it beating in the scans.

Go to the pregnancy forum and ask them when they first heard their babies heart beat...

cynder

Chain_reaction wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

A friend of mine had a baby with a heart.defect it was to die soon after birth she was offered an abortion in Ireland, she refused, baby lived less than 18 mins, but they gave her a chance, they saw her, hugged her, kissed her and buried her. She had a name. She was a person.

What is the point of posting this if you don't mind me asking?


I've a feeling you're throwing that out there to make women who chose to end pregnancies in those circumstances feel guilty.


To add to that are you sure she was offered to end the pregnancy on Irish shores??

She was offered an abortion in Ireland. That's why I posted it, one person asked if abortions were performed here, if it was offered to her here then yes they must be performed here.

cynder

Helix wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

A friend of mine had a baby with a heart.defect it was to die soon after birth she was offered an abortion in Ireland, she refused, baby lived less than 18 mins, but they gave her a chance, they saw her, hugged her, kissed her and buried her. She had a name. She was a person.

those 18 minutes can't have been pleasant for the child

it's a bit selfish making it live through that no?

They didn't want to slice and dice their baby, they had hope, they gave her a chance, she didn't suffer. The doctors were great, she just went to sleep peacefully.

Tipsygypsy

Cynder wht hospital was she in that offered her an abortion? And how many weeks along was she?

cynder wrote: »

They didn't want to slice and dice their baby, they had hope, they gave her a chance, she didn't suffer. The doctors were great, she just went to sleep peacefully.

Also 'Slice and Dice', was that their terminology or is it yours? Because I dont think I've ever read any phrasing as insensitive and I have no doubt that there are women reading this who have had terminations for medical reasons similar to your friend who certainly did not want to 'slice and dice' their babies either. Im quite appalled.

Lingua Franca

Sponge25 wrote: »

Edit: the earliest baby born was 21 weeks and five days and looked remarkably healthy!

http://topnews.in/law/files/living-baby.jpg (Frieda Mangold)

Aye, she's looking well there. :rolleyes: Survival rates for micro-preemies are notoriously terrible. These babies are born before many important organs have formed and it's a desperate and painful and frequently futile struggle to keep them alive. Using a miraculous survival as an example is ridiculous.