Abortion

Morag

tomtherobot wrote: »

But if it's not killing, why is it a mental health problem?

Just because a woman has an abortion and she feels that it was the right thing for her to do that doesn't mean she won't have regrets and wish that her circumstances hadn't of been different and the fluctuation of hormones can result in depressed state same as a woman who has had a miscarriage.

Are you anti post miscarriage counseling?

Morag

tomtherobot wrote: »

Why is it typical that a man started this thread and what makes you think i'm a man?

If you're going down the it's the woman's choice route, why would men have to pay child support? They don't even have if the child lives or not.

The termination of parental rights is a separate issue and should be legislated for.

tomtherobot

Sharrow wrote: »

Just because a woman has an abortion and she feels that it was the right thing for her to do that doesn't mean she won't have regrets and wish that her circumstances hadn't of been different and the fluctuation of hormones can result in depressed state same as a woman who has had a miscarriage.

Are you anti post miscarriage counseling?

Of course im not post-miscarriage counseling but if we're not talking about loss of baby hormone related counseling we're talking about specific post-abortion counseling.

Why would the woman have regrets and wished her circumstances were different if there is nothing wrong with abortion? Why do we need specific post-abortion counseling if abortion is nothing more than contraception and why should it be publicly funded? I just can't equate pro-abortion with also demanding publicly funded counseling.

If you've decided to kill your unborn child and need counseling to deal with the guilt i can understand why you would need this but why should i be paying for it?

Morag

Ever choose to do the right thing and regret you had to choose at all?
No one said it's the same as contraception, other then you.


We all pay taxes for things we don't agree with I don't agree with chaplains in school that's just how life is.

cat87

tomtherobot wrote: »

Why is it typical that a man started this thread and what makes you think i'm a man?

If you're going down the it's the woman's choice route, why would men have to pay child support? They don't even have if the child lives or not.

If a woman's life is in danger who would you say has more of a right to live the woman or the unborn baby?

tomtherobot

Sharrow wrote: »

Ever choose to do the right thing and regret you had to choose at all?
No one said it's the same as contraception, other then you.

But what is it if it's not contraception? All's i'm hearing is it's complicated or it's a difficult choice, explain?

If it's not killing and it's not contraception what is it? And please don't bring in these extreme medical emergencies that's very unfair on those people.

cursai

tomtherobot wrote: »

Now, normally i stay away from abortion debates because i find they're full of nazi fembots or holy joe types but this morning, i found the country's favorite moral crusader aka Ray D'arcy, preaching on about the rights of women who've had abortions. This led me to the conclusion that there's a general consensus these days that abortion is now acceptable to the majority (ok not just this alone), but if this is the case, i think it raises two issues going foWwwrward (as they say)

Firstly, maintenance payments for children? How can a society, or individual, who supports a woman's exclusive right to chose to have an abortion at the same time come to fathers with the paw out looking for money to support children. If a father has no choice whether the child is alive or not how can he be demanded to support that child? Makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Secondly, the Ray D'arcy show this morning was talking about counseling for women after abortion. Seemingly the HSE already pays for this. I can't understand how state support for counseling for women who've had abortions is justified. On one side of the debate, pro abortionists say it's a procedure to remove a physical growth which isn't alive. If that's the case why the need for counseling? On the other side, anti-abortionists say it's murder, so why would the state be counseling murderers? Did I miss something, do we not still have old folk being left to rot on trolleys, surely the HSE has greater priorities now than counseling women who've chose to have an abortion.

As you may have guessed, i'm anti-abortion. I'm not religious I just believe that an unborn child is alive. Why else would people mourn the loss of unborn or stillborn children? Or require counseling after 'terminating' one? Given that i believe that an unborn child is alive I think killing one is wrong and cannot be justified above the social or material needs of the parent(s). No more or less than i think it would be ok to kill your elderly parents just because they don't suit where you are in you're life right now.....

You do in fact have valid points. And they WILL be detailed by nazis, crusaders and holy joes.

tomtherobot

cat87 wrote: »

If a woman's life is in danger who would you say has more of a right to live the woman or the unborn baby?

Just because somebodies life might be at risk doesn't give me the right to start killing.

For all i know there might be some pro-abortion nut jobs out there now trying to track me down and kill me. Doesn't give me the right to start killing pro-abortionists. If it is clear that a baby has little chance of survival and a great chance of killing the mother then of course the baby should die.

The same ethics that apply to choosing one life over another in other medical emergencies should be applied. This doesn't explain why in non-medical emergency cases i should have to pay for post-abortion counseling and again i think it's unfair to link these medical emergences to lifestyle choice abortions.

Dangerous Man

cat87 wrote: »

I'm sorry but it's typical that a man started this thread, a woman should have a choice, it's her body. I'm not pro or against abortion, but I think in certain cases there should be abortion like if the girl was raped or if her life was in danger or even if the girl was very young and not able to care for the baby properly.

Any more cliches you'd like to wheel out while you're at it?

Irishchick

Abortion is never medically necessary and to say it is is just a down right lie!

No medical illness is cured by abortion.

If a pregnant woman becomes pregnant the doctor will treat the mother and do his/her best to save the unborn child. Sometimes they are successful, and sometimes they are not. Then procedure's such as a D&C need to performed to remove the dead unborn child.

This is widely performed in this country and is not an abortion.

Read this article, and don't just rule it out because its on a youth defence website. Its a very interesting article.

http://www.youthdefence.ie/latest-news/leading-irish-cancer-specialist-abortion-not-necessary-to-save-mom/

So that's cancer ruled out.

As for pre-eclampsia and ectopic pregnancies again the doctors will do all they can to save both but will intervene if the mother's life is in danger.

Again this is a medical treatment, not an abortion. Pro choice groups dont mention this though as it destroys their whole campaign as they know alot of women don't realise these facts.

Professor emeritus (amoug other OB GYN's) have been quoted saying that there is no risk to the mother that can be avoided by abortion.

Dangerous Man

cat87 wrote: »

If a woman's life is in danger who would you say has more of a right to live the woman or the unborn baby?

How about you STOP drudging up these tired, hackneyed arguments and actually engage with what the pro-life side are saying?

It's not about rape and it's not about women's lives 'in danger.' It's about abortion on demand, for any reason. THAT'S what this is about.

The problem with pro-abortion people is that they don't want to discuss that. They'd rather cite the possibility of extreme cases such as rape and a foetus posing a risk to the mother's life. Sorry, but that's not a legitimate basis for abortion on demand.

Chuck Stone

tomtherobot wrote: »

If you've decided to kill your unborn child and need counseling to deal with the guilt i can understand why you would need this but why should i be paying for it?

Why should people pay for a judicial system that doesn't allow women to have the choice?

You can turn just about every 'concern' you have on its head.

LizT

Dangerous Man wrote: »

How about you STOP drudging up these tired, hackneyed arguments and actually engage with what the pro-life side are saying?

It's not about rape and it's not about women's lives 'in danger.' It's about abortion on demand, for any reason. THAT'S what this is about.

The problem with pro-abortion people is that they don't want to discuss that. They'd rather cite the possibility of extreme cases such as rape and a foetus posing a risk to the mother's life. Sorry, but that's not a legitimate basis for abortion on demand.

Why not? What qualifies you to say what's a legitimate basis for any woman to get an abortion?

Feeona

tomtherobot wrote: »

I didn't dismiss you're opinions by any chance?

There's really no point in starting a discussion if you're going to dismiss other peoples' opinions.

Dangerous Man

LizT wrote: »

Why not? What qualifies you to say what's a legitimate basis for any woman to get an abortion?

You've misconstrued what I said. I'll make it clearer for you.

The pro-abortion side continually cite extreme cases such as rape as being a legitimate reason for legislating for abortion on demand.

Nudderwords, if this tactic was successful, a law would come into force because of particular reasons (pregnancy being a danger to the mother, which is nonsense, and say, rape) and would be used to facilitate abortions for anybody who wants them for any reason.

tomtherobot

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Why should people pay for a judicial system that doesn't allow women to have the choice?

You can turn just about every 'concern' you have on its head.

Well that's true of any argument where cost is brought into it. Why should we pay for anything we don't agree with?

The issue here is that the pro-abortion side is demanding post-abortion counseling and I just can't see how they equate one to the other. I can see why it's justified to pay for drugs counseling etc but these come with some acknowledgement that the initial act is harmful.

You won't have someone pro-drugs come out and say that drugs are harmless but at the same time tell us we need publicly funded drugs counseling, doesn't add up.

eviltwin

One day Tom you might find yourself in a situation where a woman you impregnate decides to abort your baby. You might not want that to happen but if it does you might be glad of post abortion counselling.

Plenty of women who have abortions do so under pressure from family, partners or society. Sometimes they end up regretting it and once its happened no amount of making her feel bad is going to change that. Why not just allow those people who want it to have it.

Post abortion counselling isn't free long term, you only get a few sessions and then if you feel you need more you have to pay or get it from one of the many volunteer services. Stopping it isn't going to make much of a saving for the HSE.

cassi

The thread title is a load I crap. No one Is saying that abortion is ok! But thankfully many people are past the age old caveman mindset that ALL women that have abortions are sluts that are looking for a way out.

There are a barrel load of reasons that women choose abortion. Not all of them the easy way out as the op seems believe.

And equating pro choice to thinking its okay to kiddy fiddle is just embarrassing as a counter argument. Perhaps if pro lifers could actually make debates without resorting to pettiness or god or killing then these debates may actually go somewhere!!

tomtherobot

Feeona wrote: »

There's really no point in starting a discussion if you're going to dismiss other peoples' opinions.

I'm sorry if i've offended any holy joe's or nazi fembots. Please let us hear what u got to say.....

eviltwin

tomtherobot wrote: »

Well that's true of any argument where cost is brought into it. Why should we pay for anything we don't agree with?

The issue here is that the pro-abortion side is demanding post-abortion counseling and I just can't see how they equate one to the other. I can see why it's justified to pay for drugs counseling etc but these come with some acknowledgement that the initial act is harmful.

You won't have someone pro-drugs come out and say that drugs are harmless but at the same time tell us we need publicly funded drugs counseling, doesn't add up.

One of the only face to face support group for women and men post abortion was set up by a pro-life campaigner, some of the couselling is offered by pro-life groups.

You can be pro-life and still believe that we can look after people who need suppoort.

What do you think we should do with a woman who is so depressed after her abortion that she is close to a breakdown?

Feeona

tomtherobot wrote: »

I'm sorry if i've offended any holy joe's or nazi fembots. Please let us hear what u got to say.....

So yes or no, you think other peoples' opinions are valid?

Dangerous Man

cassi wrote: »

The thread title is a load I crap. No one Is saying that abortion is ok! But thankfully many people are past the age old caveman mindset that ALL women that have abortions are sluts that are looking for a way out.

There are a barrel load of reasons that women choose abortion. Not all of them the easy way out as the op seems believe.

And equating pro choice to thinking its okay to kiddy fiddle is just embarrassing as a counter argument. Perhaps if pro lifers could actually make debates without resorting to pettiness or god or killing then these debates may actually go somewhere!!

I haven't mentioned God once. I haven't mentioned killing once. I haven't been petty once. Read the thread.

suicide_circus

LizT wrote: »

Why not? What qualifies you to say what's a legitimate basis for any woman to get an abortion?

Presumably because he believes that there is more than one person to consider in an abortion. One of the people happens not to be able to speak yet so it falls to the state to speak for them.
It's often said the extreme cases make for bad laws. I don't think anyone can legitimately argue against abortion for cases of rape or danger to the woman's life. It's really the on demand abortions that are the stumbling block.
An unwanted pregnancy is a traumatic and horrendous ordeal but the natural conclusion of that is not on demand abortion.
Now having said that, i'm of the opinion that you cannot force a woman to carry a child to term and so reluctantly abortion services need to be made available. Claiming that a human life is not being ended or calling it pro choice does not lessen the horror of it for me.

humanji

tomtherobot wrote: »

Again, i chose not to abuse kids, but if somebody else wants to fine. We call all see that for all intents and purposes this stance would be pro-pedophilia.

I just want to reiterate and clarify that i would not consider the decision to chose a child most likely to die over a mother most likely to live as abortion. This is a tough medical decision and shouldn't be hijacked by the abortion as convenience brigade.

Again, that analogy shows that you don't understand the issue. It is unrelated and not even slightly comparable.

Read this article, and don't just rule it out because its on a youth defence website.

You'd be doing yourself a favour by finding a non-Youth Defence article on the subject. You claim pro-choice people are biased and link to a site from a group that openly lie and cheat to trick people into agreeing with them, and as such you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who'd be able to view anything they report without severe scepticism.

Irishchick

suicide_circus wrote: »

I don't think anyone can legitimately argue against abortion for cases of rape or danger to the woman's life.

Im going to paste my reply from the other page again because people really do not know the facts

Abortion is never medically necessary and to say it is is just a down right lie!

No medical illness is cured by abortion.

If a pregnant woman becomes pregnant the doctor will treat the mother and do his/her best to save the unborn child. Sometimes they are successful, and sometimes they are not. Then procedure's such as a D&C need to performed to remove the dead unborn child.

This is widely performed in this country and is not an abortion.

Read this article, and don't just rule it out because its on a youth defence website. Its a very interesting article.

http://www.youthdefence.ie/latest-ne...y-to-save-mom/

So that's cancer ruled out.

As for pre-eclampsia and ectopic pregnancies again the doctors will do all they can to save both but will intervene if the mother's life is in danger.

Again this is a medical treatment, not an abortion. Pro choice groups dont mention this though as it destroys their whole campaign as they know alot of women don't realise these facts.

Professor emeritus (amoug other OB GYN's) have been quoted saying that there is no risk to the mother that can be avoided by abortion.

tomtherobot

eviltwin wrote: »

One day Tom you might find yourself in a situation where a woman you impregnate decides to abort your baby. You might not want that to happen but if it does you might be glad of post abortion counselling.

Plenty of women who have abortions do so under pressure from family, partners or society. Sometimes they end up regretting it and once its happened no amount of making her feel bad is going to change that. Why not just allow those people who want it to have it.

That's fine but it's not really a pro-abortion debate. I can absolutely see why you would need counseling if you felt an abortion was pressured on you or your partner but if you freely made the decision how can you demand state-subsidized counseling?

I've seen people torn apart because they later acknowledge they did the wrong thing in having an abortion or because their partner had one without telling them or giving them any choice in the matter. Of course these people's should have counseling but that's coming with an acknowledgement of the harm of abortion.

Irishchick

humanji wrote: »

link to a site from a group that openly lie and cheat to trick people into agreeing with them, and as such you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who'd be able to view anything they report without severe scepticism.

Can you provide proof of where they have lied?

Nothing on that page is a lie. It's the complete truth that any doctor will treat a woman with cancer or an ectopic pregnancy and try to save the child. Every OB GYN will tell you that this is not abortion and to suggest so is ridiculous.

In my opinion a lot of women are now wanting to vote for abortion as they have been scared into believing a doctor will not treat them if they become pregnant and then get cancer or suffer an ectopic pregnancy which is just wrong.

eviltwin

tomtherobot wrote: »

That's fine but it's not really a pro-abortion debate. I can absolutely see why you would need counseling if you felt an abortion was pressured on you or your partner but if you freely made the decision how can you demand state-subsidized counseling?

I've seen people torn apart because they later acknowledge they did the wrong thing in having an abortion or because their partner had one without telling them or giving them any choice in the matter. Of course these people's should have counseling but that's coming with an acknowledgement of the harm of abortion.

But Tom if you take it away you are taking it away for all. So those women you claim to feel sorry for will be denied it just as much as the ones you don't like.

So how do you filter out who gets counselling vs who doesn't? Counsellors don't care about the circumstances of a person coming to their door, they just want to help so don't expect them to decide for you.

By the way I work as a counsellor for people in violent relationships, I suppose seeing as how they "choose" to get involved with violent partners I should just shut up shop and not offer my services anymore.

Morag

eviltwin wrote: »

One of the only face to face support group for women and men post abortion was set up by a pro-life campaigner, some of the couselling is offered by pro-life groups.

Yes but that mostly consists of admitting you've done an evil thing and praying for forgiveness.

humanji

Irishchick wrote: »

Can you provide proof of where they have lied?

Nothing on that page is a lie. It's the complete truth that any doctor will treat a woman with cancer or an ectopic pregnancy and try to save the child. Every OB GYN will tell you that this is not abortion and to suggest so is ridiculous.

In my opinion a lot of women are now wanting to vote for abortion as they have been scared into believing a doctor will not treat them if they become pregnant and then get cancer or suffer an ectopic pregnancy which is just wrong.

You genuinely believe Youth Defence have never lied? Really? Have you not seen the posters? Have you not witnessed their tactics on the streets, trying to guilt people into follow their wishes? Here's one example for you then: http://choiceindying.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/abortion-ad.jpg

books4sale

I can't stand pro-lifers, bunch of fanatical religious nutjobs.

The same ones who believe in moving statues, apparitions and a sky man that supposedly controls all our lives. They are dangerous and backward thinking group of Jesus freaks. Ridiculous rubbish in the 21st Century!

There is no such thing as a giant sky man who is going to send us all to a firey pit, grow up everyone!

Bring on abortion!

eviltwin

Sharrow wrote: »

Yes but that mostly consists of admitting you've done an evil thing and praying for forgiveness.

Not all of them Sharrow, I go to one most months and I'm the only pro-choice woman there. No one has ever made me feel bad. I've never felt anything but compassion and support and friendship.

AnonoBoy

Someone linking to an article on the Youth Defence website and saying they don't lie = Yucks for the rest of us! :pac:

humanji

books4sale wrote: »

I can't stand pro-lifers, bunch of fanatical religious nutjobs.

The same ones who believe in moving statues, apparitions and a sky man that supposedly controls all our lives. They are dangerous and backward thinking group of Jesus freaks. Ridiculous rubbish in the 21st Century!

There is no such thing as a giant sky man who is going to send us all to a firey pit, grow up everyone!

Bring on abortion!

And here we have the other side of the coin...

Morag

Irishchick wrote: »

Abortion is never medically necessary and to say it is is just a down right lie!

No medical illness is cured by abortion.

The ending of ectopic pregnancies is abortion, it is an abortion which is the treatment for a medical condition.

Irishchick wrote: »

Read this article, and don't just rule it out because its on a youth defence website. Its a very interesting article.

No thanks.

Actor

books4sale wrote: »

I can't stand pro-lifers, bunch of fanatical religious nutjobs.

The same ones who believe in moving statues, apparitions and a sky man that supposedly controls all our lives. They are dangerous and backward thinking group of people. Ridiculous rubbish in the 21st Century!

There is no such thing as a giant sky man who is going to send us all to a firey pit, grow up everyone!

Bring on abortion!

Oh the irony. Your depth of knowledge on the subject of abortion is truly breathtaking. So much so, you have to resort to demonising pro-lifers.

Irishchick

humanji wrote: »

You genuinely believe Youth Defence have never lied? Really? Have you not seen the posters? Have you not witnessed their tactics on the streets, trying to guilt people into follow their wishes? Here's one example for you then: http://choiceindying.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/abortion-ad.jpg

There is nothing on that billboard that can be described as a lie. You may not like it or agree with it but it certainly can't be defined as lying.

Morag

tomtherobot wrote: »

But what is it if it's not contraception? All's i'm hearing is it's complicated or it's a difficult choice, explain?

If it's not killing and it's not contraception what is it? And please don't bring in these extreme medical emergencies that's very unfair on those people.

You honestly have not taken the time to consider and put yourselves in the shoes of a woman who finds out she is pregnant and had to then not continue the pregnancy despite wanting kids but does so as it's not right for her in her life at that time.

Actor

Sharrow wrote: »

The ending of ectopic pregnancies is abortion, it is an abortion which is the treatment for a medical condition.

You forgot about the intent part. The intent with ectopic pregnancies in Ireland is to save both lives if possible. The intent of "abortion" is to kill unborn life for the benefit of the mother's individual circumstances.

humanji

Irishchick wrote: »

There is nothing on that billboard that can be described as a lie. You may not like it or agree with it but it certainly can't be defined as lying.

Yeah, the last line is a provable lie. And the poster itself is not an appeal to logic. It's designed to emotionally manipulate the vulnerable to do their bidding. It's propaganda and it's most obvious.

Irishchick

Sharrow wrote: »

The ending of ectopic pregnancies is abortion, it is an abortion which is the treatment for a medical condition.

No it isn't. Go pick up a medical text book. The treatment for ectopic pregnancy is not considered an abortion. It never was. That's why its performed in this country.

The next time you visit your GP/GYN ask him or her. I guarantee they will agree with me.

Actor

humanji wrote: »

Yeah, the last line is a provable lie. And the poster itself is not an appeal to logic. It's designed to emotionally manipulate the vulnerable to do their bidding. It's propaganda and it's most obvious.

Of course pro-choicers never engage in propaganda and the demonisation of religous...

books4sale

tomtherobot wrote: »

Again, i chose not to abuse kids, but if somebody else wants to fine. We call all see that for all intents and purposes this stance would be pro-pedophilia.
.

That's sick man!

That's why this country is where it is because weak people stand by, do nothing and meekly say '....its fine'.

It's not bloody fine, stand up and defeat this apathy.

Irishchick

humanji wrote: »

Yeah, the last line is a provable lie. .

How is it a lie? Abortion does tear some lives apart. The poster doesn't say it tears every life apart. If it did then that would be a lie.

Sorry just realised you meant the "always a better choice" part.

That's not a lie either, it an opinion.

Again you might not agree with it, but that doesn't make it a lie.

humanji

Actor wrote: »

Of course pro-choicers never engage in propaganda and the demonisation of religous...

Of course they do. But not to the level of Youth Defence. There's plenty of anti-abortion proponents who can make reasonable arguments and not base their arguments on emotional blackmail. These people are a hell of a lot more trustworthy than Youth Defence.

humanji

Irishchick wrote: »

How is it a lie? Abortion does tear some lives apart. The poster doesn't say it tears every life apart. If it did then that would be a lie.

The last line.

Actor

humanji wrote: »

Of course they do. But not to the level of Youth Defence. There's plenty of anti-abortion proponents who can make reasonable arguments and not base their arguments on emotional blackmail. These people are a hell of a lot more trustworthy than Youth Defence.

Did you ever ask yourself why these posters are so effective? It's pushing certain buttons that appeals to any right-minded person with a conscience. It's common sense that abortion is wrong as abortion goes against our basic natural instincts.

Actor

humanji wrote: »

The last line.

You'll have to explain yourself better than that. Make a reasoned argument for once.

Irishchick

humanji wrote: »

The last line.

yeah sorry just edited my last post.

Sorry just realised you meant the "always a better choice" part.

That's not a lie either, it an opinion.

Again you might not agree with it, but that doesn't make it a lie.

eviltwin

So seeing there are a good few pro-life voices here lets get back to the OP's point.

How many of the other pro-life posters think post abortion counselling should be done away with?