Abortion

Actor

eviltwin wrote: »

So seeing there are a good few pro-life voices here lets get back to the OP's point.

How many of the other pro-life posters think post abortion counselling should be done away with?

Why would post-abortion counselling be done away with? Many women's lives are ruined by abortion. Many are forced into abortions by aggressive, pushy fathers who don't want to take responsibility.

humanji

Actor wrote: »

Did you ever ask yourself why these posters are so effective? It's pushing certain buttons that appeals to any right-minded person with a conscience. It's common sense that abortion is wrong as abortion goes against our basic natural instincts.

It's propaganda. I'ts nothing to do with facts or honesty. It's a trick. A cheat. And the fact that Youth Defence have to do this means that their arguments don't stand up on their own.

Actor wrote: »

You'll have to explain yourself better than that. Make a reasoned argument for once.

I've made plenty of reasoned arguments. Have a read over the thread instead of trying to push your agenda.

Irishchick wrote: »

yeah sorry just edited my last post.

So it should read "In our opinion..." Hardly honest to represent that as a certain fact, is it? Youth defence cannot be trusted. As I said, get your facts from real sources and you'll have something verifiable and trustworthy to back your arguments.

eviltwin

Actor wrote: »

Why would post-abortion counselling be done away with? Many women's lives are ruined by abortion. Many are forced into abortions by aggressive, pushy fathers who don't want to take responsibility.

That was what the OP was suggesting Actor, he thinks the money given by the state to the groups that offer it should be given elsewhere

Irishchick

eviltwin wrote: »

How many of the other pro-life posters think post abortion counselling should be done away with?

No I don't think it should it should be done away with. These women are hurting.
I think deep down most women feel some sort of guilt/sadness after an abortion regardless of point of view.

Some need help dealing with these feelings.

humanji

Actor wrote: »

Why would post-abortion counselling be done away with? Many women's lives are ruined by abortion. Many are forced into abortions by aggressive, pushy fathers who don't want to take responsibility.

That's what the thread is about. The OP wants these people to pay for counselling themselves, instead of being paid by the state.

Irishchick

humanji wrote: »

As I said, get your facts from real sources and you'll have something verifiable and trustworthy to back your arguments.

I have. Read an medical text book and you will see the same views that are on that site. That's why I wrote it, because it is fact.

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/flu/A-Z/E/Ectopic-pregnancy/Treating-ectopic-pregnancy.html

It is performed here because it is not considered and abortion.

humanji

Irishchick wrote: »

I have. Read an medical text book and you will see the same views that are on that site. That's why I wrote it, because it is fact.

And go back to my original point, people don't trust Youth Defence, so if you can get your facts from elsewhere you stand a chance of people paying attention to you. It doesn't matter that they might occasionally tell the truth. They, as a whole, cannot be completely trusted and therefore it's only logical that you use a verifiable source.

Actor

humanji wrote: »

It's propaganda. I'ts nothing to do with facts or honesty. It's a trick. A cheat. And the fact that Youth Defence have to do this means that their arguments don't stand up on their own.

You talk about "propaganda", yet you've failed to demonstrate how or why[/] you think it's propaganda.

humanji wrote: »

I've made plenty of reasoned arguments. Have a read over the thread instead of trying to push your agenda.

No you haven't. What you have done is made numerous assertions. Why don't you go and put forward a reasoned argument?

humanji wrote: »

So it should read "In our opinion..." Hardly honest to represent that as a certain fact, is it? Youth defence cannot be trusted. As I said, get your facts from real sources and you'll have something verifiable and trustworthy to back your arguments.

It wasn't represented as fact. That's your comprehension abilities acting up again. I've not much time for YD myself, but they do represent a far right wing of the pro-life movement. It's often very convenient to have a far-right so that the middle-right can get to work by offloading the hysterics in the direction of YD.

Irishchick

humanji wrote: »

And go back to my original point, people don't trust Youth Defence, so if you can get your facts from elsewhere you stand a chance of people paying attention to you. It doesn't matter that they might occasionally tell the truth. They, as a whole, cannot be completely trusted and therefore it's only logical that you use a verifiable source.

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/flu/A-Z/E/Ectopic-pregnancy/Treating-ectopic-pregnancy.html

http://ectopicireland.ie/medical-info/

and people are still being scared into believing that they wont be treated.

Nodin

Irishchick wrote: »

Abortion is never medically necessary and to say it is is just a down right lie!

......

The courts disagree.

Actor

humanji wrote: »

That's what the thread is about. The OP wants these people to pay for counselling themselves, instead of being paid by the state.

It's a stupid premise. People who make mistakes should not be denied basic healthcare. In America (and elsewhere), prisoners (even child molesters) receive much better medical treatment than if they were on the outside.

Actor

Nodin wrote: »

The courts disagree.

Sigh. I can't wait to hear your interpretation of this fantasy court rulilng.

Nodin

Actor wrote: »

Sigh. I can't wait to hear your interpretation of this fantasy court rulilng.

O its not mine.
http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-twenty-years-after-the-x-case-it%E2%80%99s-time-for-action-on-abortion-347882-Feb2012/

Actor

Nodin wrote: »

O its not mine.
http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-twenty-years-after-the-x-case-it%E2%80%99s-time-for-action-on-abortion-347882-Feb2012/

Ah yes, thejournal.ie. A liberal outlook on all things abortion-related. What's your interpretation of the ruling then? Seeing as you're the one who says "the courts disagree [RE: abortion never being medically necessary]".

btw, this "Government must legislate for abortion" is not accurate. It's left-wing mantra. The Government should clarify the situation with regards to the X Case, but to say that they are under an obligation to legislate is inaccurate.

edit: Oh, would you look! Alison Spillane - a militant feminist! Better try to source better in future...

humanji

Actor wrote: »

You talk about "propaganda", yet you've failed to demonstrate how or why[/] you think it's propaganda.

You're either being deliberately obtuse or simply don't understand waht propaganda is.

No you haven't. What you have done is made numerous assertions. Why don't you go and put forward a reasoned argument?

I have, many times.

It wasn't represented as fact. That's your comprehension abilities acting up again. I've not much time for YD myself, but they do represent a far right wing of the pro-life movement. It's often very convenient to have a far-right so that the middle-right can get to work by offloading the hysterics in the direction of YD.

So how long have you been with Youth Defence?

Irishchick wrote: »

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/flu/A-Z/E/Ectopic-pregnancy/Treating-ectopic-pregnancy.html

http://ectopicireland.ie/medical-info/

and people are still being scared into believing that they wont be treated.

See? Was that so hard? You even commented yourself that Youth Defence links will cause problems.

humanji

Actor wrote: »

It's a stupid premise. People who make mistakes should not be denied basic healthcare. In America (and elsewhere), prisoners (even child molesters) receive much better medical treatment than if they were on the outside.

On this we fully agree. It's utter madness. Whether people are for or against abortion, the one thing that can only be denied by the truly heartless is that it is a very difficult thing to go through and can't be taken lightly.

Actor

humanji wrote: »

On this we fully agree. It's utter madness. Whether people are for or against abortion, the one thing that can only be denied by the truly heartless is that it is a very difficult thing to go through and can't be taken lightly.

Did you ever ask yourself why women need post-abortion counselling?

Nodin

Actor wrote: »

Ah yes, thejournal.ie. A liberal outlook on all things abortion-related. ..........

I'm not seeing how the link to that site has any bearing whatever on the supreme court rulings existence or otherwise.

You seem confused. The Supreme courts ruling is the interpretation of the constitution, which allows for abortion in limited circumstances.

eviltwin

Actor wrote: »

Did you ever ask yourself why women need post-abortion counselling?

Tell us why then. I've had it myself. Why don't you tell me what I was feeling. It should be interesting

Actor

humanji wrote: »

You're either being deliberately obtuse or simply don't understand waht propaganda is.



I have, many times.


So how long have you been with Youth Defence?

First off, I've no affliiation with YD.

Secondly, casting assertions over the boards without backup does nothing for your argument.

Nodin

Actor wrote: »

Did you ever ask yourself why women need post-abortion counselling?

Well, I think we covered one factor earlier, which could well apply to more than that individual...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80620955&postcount=18

jill_valentine

Actor wrote: »

Did you ever ask yourself why women need post-abortion counselling?

Have you ever asked any women anything about the subject?

We have posters here who have actually had an abortion themselves, but curiously few of the chaps hollering on their behalf ever seem to consider them relevant. Which is about par for the course, really.

Actor

eviltwin wrote: »

Tell us why then. I've had it myself. Why don't you tell me what I was feeling. It should be interesting

So you've had an abortion then? No regrets?

How would I know what you were feeling?

In the general sense though, any woman with a heart would feel strange if they underwent an abortion. It goes against all natural instincts. It's no wonder that post-abortion counselling is in such demand.

Actor

jill_valentine wrote: »

Have you ever asked any women anything about the subject?

We have posters here who have actually had an abortion themselves, but curiously few of the chaps hollering on their behalf ever seem to consider them relevant. Which is about par for the course, really.

Are they looking for approbation or something? It's as if "Hey! Look at me! I've had an abortion" is something to be proud of.

eviltwin

Actor wrote: »

So you've had an abortion then? No regrets?

How would I know what you were feeling?

In the general sense though, any woman with a heart would feel strange if they underwent an abortion. It goes against all natural instincts. It's no wonder that post-abortion counselling is in such demand.

Yes I have had an abortion, no I have no regrets.

And I had counselling, months and months of it in fact but not for the reasons you think.

I'm not proud of it but I'm not ashamed either, I haven't done anything wrong.

Nodin

Actor wrote: »

Are they looking for approbation or something? It's as if "Hey! Look at me! I've had an abortion" is something to be proud of.

You'd rather they receive some badge of shame, I trust?

eviltwin

Actor wrote: »

Are they looking for approbation or something? It's as if "Hey! Look at me! I've had an abortion" is something to be proud of.

If more people were able to talk about it openly it would reduce a lot of the negative after effects and surely that can only be a good thing

Morag

Actor wrote: »

You forgot about the intent part. The intent with ectopic pregnancies in Ireland is to save both lives if possible. The intent of "abortion" is to kill unborn life for the benefit of the mother's individual circumstances.

Intent of an abortion done to treat an ectopic pregnancy is to end the pregnancy to to the woman's individual circumstance that if the pregnancies continues it will cause her death or infertility.

Morag

Actor wrote: »

So you've had an abortion then? No regrets?

How would I know what you were feeling?

In the general sense though, any woman with a heart would feel strange if they underwent an abortion. It goes against all natural instincts. It's no wonder that post-abortion counselling is in such demand.

Wearing clothes and shoes goes against natural instincts.

Morag

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/flu/A-Z/E/Ectopic-pregnancy/Treating-ectopic-pregnancy.html

The baby cannot be saved in an ectopic pregnancy. However, if the ectopic pregnancy is diagnosed before your fallopian tube ruptures, the pregnancy can be safely ended using medication or surgery. Your specialist, or gynaecologist, will be able to advise you about the benefits and risks of each option.

The ending of a pregnancy by medical intervention is an abortion.
Indeed it is the very definition of abortion.

tomtherobot

Sharrow wrote: »

You honestly have not taken the time to consider and put yourselves in the shoes of a woman who finds out she is pregnant and had to then not continue the pregnancy despite wanting kids but does so as it's not right for her in her life at that time.

So it's a lifestyle choice.....

books4sale wrote: »

That's sick man!

That's why this country is where it is because weak people stand by, do nothing and meekly say '....its fine'.

It's not bloody fine, stand up and defeat this apathy.

I was being sarcastic just in case there's any doubt. I can't believe pro-abortionists get away with calling themselves pro-choice. Either side in any debate can call themselves pro-choice. We'd all like to chose for things to be the way we want them.

eviltwin wrote: »

How many of the other pro-life posters think post abortion counselling should be done away with?

Ok, I need to clarify what i meant in the OP. I support post abortion counselling, if a person has had an abortion forced upon them in some way. I cannot see how pro-abortionists can demand counseling, for a lifestyle choice, without acknowledging that the choice is harmful.

Morag

tomtherobot wrote: »

I was being sarcastic just in case there's any doubt. I can't believe pro-abortionists get away with calling themselves pro-choice. Either side in any debate can call themselves pro-choice. We'd all like to chose for things to be the way we want them.

Pro choice means I support women who make any of the possible choices
when they are in a crises pregnancy situation or a complicated pregnancy.

tomtherobot wrote: »

Ok, I need to clarify what i meant in the OP. I support post abortion counselling, if a person has had an abortion forced upon them in some way. I cannot see how pro-abortionists can demand counseling, for a lifestyle choice, without acknowledging that the choice is harmful.

Not every woman who has an abortion needs post abortion counseling, I didn't and my abortion wasn't harmful to me in any way.

tomtherobot

Sharrow wrote: »

Pro choice means I support women who make any of the possible choices
when they are in a crises pregnancy situation or a complicated pregnancy.

Because you have chosen it to mean this. When I hear pro-choice, I think pro an adult's choice to be a peadophile, or exterminate the disabled, or smoke in a pub, whatever your having really.

Sharrow wrote: »

Not every woman who has an abortion needs post abortion counseling, I didn't and my abortion wasn't harmful to me in any way.

I think it's pretty clear that's not really relevant to my point. Can an abortion be harmful or is it the same as contraception?

Frito

tomtherobot wrote: »

I can't believe pro-abortionists get away with calling themselves pro-choice. Either side in any debate can call themselves pro-choice. We'd all like to chose for things to be the way we want.

I wonder if the terms 'pro-forced gestation' and 'anti-forced gestation' might be less ambiguous. Definitely more of a mouthful though.

Morag

tomtherobot wrote: »

Because you have chosen it to mean this. When I hear pro-choice, I think pro an adult's choice to be a peadophile, or exterminate the disabled, or smoke in a pub, whatever your having really.

Well that is your own twisted thinking.

tomtherobot wrote: »

I think it's pretty clear that's not really relevant to my point. Can an abortion be harmful or is it the same as contraception?

By that rationale being pregnant and giving birth can be harmful so no one should ever do that either.

Irishchick

Sharrow wrote: »

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/flu/A-Z/E/Ectopic-pregnancy/Treating-ectopic-pregnancy.html

The baby cannot be saved in an ectopic pregnancy. However, if the ectopic pregnancy is diagnosed before your fallopian tube ruptures, the pregnancy can be safely ended using medication or surgery. Your specialist, or gynaecologist, will be able to advise you about the benefits and risks of each option.

The ending of a pregnancy by medical intervention is an abortion.
Indeed it is the very definition of abortion.

No it isnt. Ask any medical professional. It is not defined as an abortion. Legally or medically.

RDM_83 again

Sharrow wrote: »

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/flu/A-Z/E/Ectopic-pregnancy/Treating-ectopic-pregnancy.html



The ending of a pregnancy by medical intervention is an abortion.
Indeed it is the very definition of abortion.

No its more complicated than that it could be consider that its "the termination of pregnancy before viability"* so in the cases your referring to, ectopic pregnancies which are never viable (they're has been literally a handful of cases in which this is not the case) your wrong.


* http://www.ajol.info/index.php/gmj/article/viewFile/55256/43723

tomtherobot

Frito wrote: »

I wonder if the terms 'pro-forced gestation' and 'anti-forced gestation' might be less ambiguous. Definitely more of a mouthful though.

I think a gestation is going to continue anyway without intervention, unless there's illness etc. An abortion's an abortion. We tend not to define things by the absence of another. I say it's snowing. I don't say there an absence of not snow in the air.

Unless your making some reference to rape, where there is already a clear and unambiguous term. I don't really get your point.

krudler

tomtherobot wrote: »

I think it's pretty clear that's not really relevant to my point. Can an abortion be harmful or is it the same as contraception?

contraception stops you getting pregnant to begin with, how is that in any way the same thing?

Irishchick

Off topic but I'm glad we can have a good debate on this subject without some resorting to personal insults. It happens all too often when where this subject is concerned !

tomtherobot

Sharrow wrote: »

Well that is your own twisted thinking.

We can just resort to name calling if you like, guess what I think is twisted?

Sharrow wrote: »

By that rationale being pregnant and giving birth can be harmful so no one should ever do that either.

Sorry, what? I really just don't understand what you're saying here?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Where's my minature American flag?

tomtherobot

krudler wrote: »

contraception stops you getting pregnant to begin with, how is that in any way the same thing?

We know the biological difference between abortion and contraception. Why does one have an impact that might require counseling and the other does not?

Irishchick wrote: »

Off topic but I'm glad we can have a good debate on this subject without some resorting to personal insults. It happens all too often when where this subject is concerned !

Looks like it's begun but i'll stop if everyone else will!

Morag

tomtherobot wrote: »

Sorry, what? I really just don't understand what you're saying here?

Can't say I am surprised by that.

Mr Benevolent

ballsymchugh wrote: »

needs counselling though.

And a heavy wooden implement to the face.

krudler

tomtherobot wrote: »

We know the biological difference between abortion and contraception. Why does one have an impact that might require counseling and the other does not?

because one is ending what could be a life, the other stops that life from occurring at all. jesus if you wanna philosophical about it why not include masturbation, if that needed counselling I would have made someone a millionaire in fees by now.

Frito

tomtherobot wrote: »

I don't really get your point.

Replace the prefixes with 'in favour of' and 'against'.

Actor

Actor wrote: »

You forgot about the intent part. The intent with ectopic pregnancies in Ireland is to save both lives if possible. The intent of "abortion" is to kill unborn life for the benefit of the mother's individual circumstances.

not true at all. in an ectopic pregnancy there is no other life except the mothers. usually these things come to light between 4 to 8 weeks in the pregnancy.
saving the 'life' of the unborn does not come into it. its a medical procedure and it is done immediately.
it is not considered abortion, because if it was it wouldnt be done in this country.
and women would die.

tomtherobot

krudler wrote: »

because one is ending what could be a life, the other stops that life from occurring at all. jesus if you wanna philosophical about it why not include masturbation, if that needed counselling I would have made someone a millionaire in fees by now.

Im not sure if you've got my original point. I think masturbation and contraception are fine, so I would never advocate state funded counseling for either. If i thought abortion was fine, it would be ridiculous for me to advocate state funded counseling for it.

LeeHoffmann

show of hands for closing the thread?