Abortion

goodie2shoes

i am against abortion as i feel it is the willful destruction of a human life.

therefore any woman that aborts her child most probably does NEED counselling.

sadly for some women abortion is considered little more than a delayed form of contraception, and i dont think counselling will be much use to these types.

partyatmygaff

jill_valentine wrote: »

Have you ever asked any women anything about the subject?

We have posters here who have actually had an abortion themselves, but curiously few of the chaps hollering on their behalf ever seem to consider them relevant. Which is about par for the course, really.

They're very free to express their views as well. Their experiences, interesting and insightful as they can be, don't necessarily make their opinions valid though.

Despite what you and others may be inclined to think, you'll also find that quite a number of people who are pro-life would know and even may be closely related to a woman who had or seriously considered an abortion.

tomtherobot

jill_valentine wrote: »

Have you ever asked any women anything about the subject?

We have posters here who have actually had an abortion themselves, but curiously few of the chaps hollering on their behalf ever seem to consider them relevant. Which is about par for the course, really.

Yeah i don't buy this stuff either that women should have more, or all, of the say when it comes to abortion.

Let's say a man is walking home one night. He see's one woman killing another. By this thinking he shouldn't intervene. I mean who is he to be telling women what to do with their bodies.....

cassi

Dangerous Man wrote: »

cassi wrote: »

The thread title is a load I crap. No one Is saying that abortion is ok! But thankfully many people are past the age old caveman mindset that ALL women that have abortions are sluts that are looking for a way out.

There are a barrel load of reasons that women choose abortion. Not all of them the easy way out as the op seems believe.

And equating pro choice to thinking its okay to kiddy fiddle is just embarrassing as a counter argument. Perhaps if pro lifers could actually make debates without resorting to pettiness or god or killing then these debates may actually go somewhere!!

I haven't mentioned God once. I haven't mentioned killing once. I haven't been petty once. Read the thread.

I wasn't talking about you nor did I mention any specific person. Read my post!

Royal Legend

seamus wrote: »

Why can't we do both? Do counselling services occupy beds in hospitals? Nope.

If someone requires assistance in the form of counselling, is there ever any justification for turning around and saying, "Fnck you, you made your bed now lie in it"?

Tell you what, from now on everyone who presents at A&E will be assessed as to whether it was their own fault or a genuine accident. Heart attack? Tough ****, you're fat, it's your fault, go home.
Overdose? Haha, you're joking right, get out of my hospital.

Always puzzles me how so many people claim to oppose abortion on the basis of life, yet show very little humanity for those who actually are alive.[/QUOTE]

Reply of the day IMO, this thread should close.

goodie2shoes

btw i am not religious.
my views are purely based on what i believe to be the correct, moral thing to do.

efb

Fcuk me can we have an abortion forum that can be hidden???

efb

goodie2shoes wrote: »

btw i am not religious.
my views are purely based on what i believe to be the correct, moral thing to do.

Do you believe you should be allowed to impose your will and morals on others?

tomtherobot

seamus wrote: »

yet show very little humanity for those who actually are alive.

Im all for humanity, counsel the poor, sick, needy, drug addicts, domestic abuse victims etc etc

Now hypocrisy on the other hand, i've no time for.....

goodie2shoes

efb wrote: »

Do you believe you should be allowed to impose your will and morals on others?

no of course not, but i shouldn't be prevented from expressing them either because it might be considered upsetting or inconvenient to others.

krudler

tomtherobot wrote: »

Yeah i don't buy this stuff either that women should have more, or all, of the say when it comes to abortion.

Let's say a man is walking home one night. He see's one woman killing another. By this thinking he shouldn't intervene. I mean who is he to be telling women what to do with their bodies.....

as far as retarded analogies go, thats pretty up there.

tomtherobot

krudler wrote: »

as far as retarded analogies go, thats pretty up there.

If you say so. Doesn't take from the point though, why do some women claim a greater right to decide on abortion?

oranbhoy67

its just wrong


they need counselling cos basically they have killed there unborn child or terminated to use the more used phrase


Often times without any word from the father who has also created the life..

Theres too much focus on the womans rights.. & not enough or zero on the unborn Child and the Fathers


I think its something to be proud of that this country doesnt carry out these procedures



& im not religious either btw

Fromthetrees

tomtherobot wrote: »

Now, normally i stay away from abortion debates because i find they're full of extremist types but this morning, i found the country's favorite moral crusader aka Ray D'arcy, preaching on about the rights of women who've had abortions. This led me to the conclusion that there's a general consensus these days that abortion is now acceptable to the majority (ok not just this alone), but if this is the case, i think it raises two issues going forward (as they say)

Firstly, maintenance payments for children? How can a society, or individual, who supports a woman's exclusive right to chose to have an abortion at the same time come to fathers with the paw out looking for money to support children. If a father has no choice whether the child is alive or not how can he be demanded to support that child? Makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Secondly, the Ray D'arcy show this morning was talking about counseling for women after abortion. Seemingly the HSE already pays for this. I can't understand how state support for counseling for women who've had abortions is justified. On one side of the debate, pro abortionists say it's a procedure to remove a physical growth which isn't alive. If that's the case why the need for counseling? On the other side, anti-abortionists say it's murder, so why would the state be counseling murderers? Did I miss something, do we not still have old folk being left to rot on trolleys, surely the HSE has greater priorities now than counseling women who've chose to have an abortion.

As you may have guessed, i'm anti-abortion. I'm not religious I just believe that an unborn child is alive. Why else would people mourn the loss of unborn or stillborn children? Or require counseling after 'terminating' one? Given that i believe that an unborn child is alive I think killing one is wrong and cannot be justified above the social or material needs of the parent(s). No more or less than i think it would be ok to kill your elderly parents just because they don't suit where you are in you're life right now.....

Didn't read all the thread,
but,
I agreed fully with the OP,
right up until after the mother of my child missed a ('thing') about 5 months after our first and ONLY child was born. That's it. Had the trip to engerland planned before I even said 'ahh, hmm, test kit, now.'

tomtherobot

Fromthetrees wrote: »

Didn't read all the thread,
but,
I agreed fully with the OP,
right up until after the mother of my child missed a ('thing') about 5 months after our first and ONLY child was born. That's it. Had the trip to engerland planned before I even said 'ahh, hmm, test kit, now.'

And do you think the state should pay for counseling for you? I mean it was your decision and not a medical emergancy?

oranbhoy67

Fromthetrees wrote: »

Didn't read all the thread,
but,
I agreed fully with the OP,
right up until after the mother of my child missed a ('thing') about 5 months after our first and ONLY child was born. That's it. Had the trip to engerland planned before I even said 'ahh, hmm, test kit, now.'

that sir makes you a hypocrite


from now on use contraception please if you cant deal with the aftermath

tempura

Do you know what, I am sick to the eyeballs with abortion threads.

They always seem to be started by someone who has never been pregnant, not a parent, never even been close to a situation that might result in the creation of a baby...............seriously, blah, blah, blah , blah , come back when you've had some real life experience and stopped posting soundbytes heard from every other anti abortion, keyboard warrior who seems to have such a strong moralistic opinion on the subject !

Signed
Mother of two and abortion survivor (or child murderer if you prefer ).

tomtherobot

tempura wrote: »

Do you know what, I am sick to the eyeballs with abortion threads.

They always seem to be started by someone who has never been pregnant, not a parent, never even been close to a situation that might result in the creation of a baby...............seriously, blah, blah, blah , blah , come back when you've had some real life experience and stopped posting soundbytes heard from every other anti abortion, keyboard warrior who seems to have such a strong moralistic opinion on the subject !

Signed
Mother of two and abortion survivor (or child murderer if you prefer ).

Jump to conclusions much?

oranbhoy67

tempura wrote: »

Do you know what, I am sick to the eyeballs with abortion threads.

They always seem to be started by someone who has never been pregnant, not a parent, never even been close to a situation that might result in the creation of a baby...............seriously, blah, blah, blah , blah , come back when you've had some real life experience and stopped posting soundbytes heard from every other anti abortion, keyboard warrior who seems to have such a strong moralistic opinion on the subject !

Signed
Mother of two and abortion survivor (or child murderer if you prefer ).

Im a parent .. though i dont think that matters .. its a debate that concerns us all.

after all we are all capable of reproducing & once upon a time we were all carried by strong women who thankfully carried out there natural instinct.


why do people keep wanting these threads closed.. if you dont want to debate then ignore .. go read another topic.. no one is making you contribute!


Your an abortion survivor?? im sorry but i link the term survivor with someone that comes through a traumatic experience that either they were made to endure or didnt have any choice on.

You made the choice to do something ( which btw as you know is illegal in this country) nobody made you, it was your choice.. so please dont play the victim.

Sponge25

I strongly feel that if you don't want a baby don't get pregnant!

Life isn't something you mess with, you don't put yourself in a circumstance that MAY create life if you don't want that. Under any circumstances.

Abortion for rape victims is OK IMO

I have no respect for people who have or support abortion and so called "womans rights"

PS. If the male doesn't want his child aborted, does he have any rights?

Augmerson

What we really need is a way to extract the foetus from those who don't want them and put them into people who do want them, like people who have trouble conceiving or my mate David. He is always harping on about wanting to have a baby. Everybody wins that way. Nobody has a growth inside them, nobody is a killer, and somebody gets a baby.

up for anything

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

from now on use contraception please if you cant deal with the aftermath

How do you know that they weren't?

Stop jumping to conclusions. :rolleyes:

oranbhoy67

Augmerson wrote: »

What we really need is a way to extract the foetus from those who don't want them and put them into people who do want them, like people who have trouble conceiving or my mate David. He is always harping on about wanting to have a baby. Everybody wins that way. Nobody has a growth inside them, nobody is a killer, and somebody gets a baby.

im guessing that you are taking the piss but i still agree lol

efb

goodie2shoes wrote: »

no of course not, but i shouldn't be prevented from expressing them either because it might be considered upsetting or inconvenient to others.

So you can say it, but not actually materialise???

Madam_X

"Don't get pregnant" - lol.

I doubt anyone is saying abortion is "ok" either - it's not the ideal, but sometimes it is the only option a woman feels she has, a last resort, due to other factors, and not a decision she takes lightly, and often a painful one. It should be obvious really - surprising it just flies over some people's heads.

I agree though, it's unfair on a man who would like to keep the child.

Dangerous Man

tempura wrote: »

Do you know what, I am sick to the eyeballs with abortion threads.

They always seem to be started by someone who has never been pregnant, not a parent, never even been close to a situation that might result in the creation of a baby...............seriously, blah, blah, blah , blah , come back when you've had some real life experience and stopped posting soundbytes heard from every other anti abortion, keyboard warrior who seems to have such a strong moralistic opinion on the subject !

Signed
Mother of two and abortion survivor (or child murderer if you prefer ).

Welcome to my ignore list.

partyatmygaff

Fromthetrees wrote: »

Didn't read all the thread,
but,
I agreed fully with the OP,
right up until after the mother of my child missed a ('thing') about 5 months after our first and ONLY child was born. That's it. Had the trip to engerland planned before I even said 'ahh, hmm, test kit, now.'

So you're essentially a hypocrite who was too weak-willed to follow through with their views when ideals had to become actions? That's not my opinion of you or an insult, just an observation.

Also, for those wondering, the above is exactly what I don't want normalised in Ireland. "I only want one child. Any children that pops in to my life after that isn't going to live long enough to say daddy."

oranbhoy67

up for anything wrote: »

How do you know that they weren't?

Stop jumping to conclusions. :rolleyes:

because if they weren`t then there would be no pregnancy , therefore no boasting of booking the trip to "en ger land "

Madam_X

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

because if they weren`t then there would be no pregnancy , therefore no boasting of booking the trip to "en ger land "

Contraception isn't 100% effective - and who "boasts" about going on such a trip?

oranbhoy67

Madam_X wrote: »

Contraception isn't 100% effective - and who "boasts" about going on such a trip?

its as close as it can be if both are using it

who boasts?? the fella whos post i was referring to who talked about it the way youd talk about planning a week in Ibiza not Terminating the life of there unborn child.

gosuckonalemon

I wish people would stop using the phrase "unborn child". A child refers to a human being, a foetus may be a living thing in the cellular sense of the word, but it is not a child.

In another decade or so abortion, thankfully, will be legal in Ireland. In the same way the Catholic Church will be a shadow of it's former self.

We just need for the older, less informed/enlightened generations to pass on.

At least the HSE provide a service for post abortion counselling for women who go to the UK to get it done.

It's mad to think that 200,000 Irish women have had abortions in the UK to date.

Sponge25

Sponge25 wrote: »

I strongly feel that if you don't want a baby don't get pregnant!

Life isn't something you mess with, you don't put yourself in a circumstance that MAY create life if you don't want that. Under any circumstances.

Abortion for rape victims is OK IMO

I have no respect for people who have or support abortion and so called "womans rights"

PS. If the male doesn't want his child aborted, does he have any rights?

why is abortion for rape victims ok????
you seem to believe that once a 'life' is created than it should live? is that you belief??
so why should an unborn child of a rape victim be aborted??
i dint understand your logic?

Sponge25

up for anything wrote: »

How do you know that they weren't?

Stop jumping to conclusions. :rolleyes:

It doesn't matter, they still had sex. If you can't take responsibility for that, you're not mature enough to have sex!

If it were up to me and i'm and understanding man, it would be a punishable offense! (In all countries)

efb

Sure I'm sure the councilling I'd cheaper than children's allowance

tomtherobot

efb wrote: »

So you can say it, but not actually materialise???

I can say Bertie should be shot, free speech dictates im allowed to say that. Very different to shooting Bertie?

Madam_X wrote: »

"Don't get pregnant" - lol.

I doubt anyone is saying abortion is "ok" either - it's not the ideal, but sometimes it is the only option a woman feels she has, a last resort, due to other factors, and not a decision she takes lightly, and often a painful one. It should be obvious really - surprising it just flies over some people's heads.

Yes of course people will have sex and get pregnant, just don't kill the child?

I think plenty of people are saying abortion is ok. I think it's become widely socially acceptable (I mean even Ray D'arcy is backing it). How can you say it's a painful decision but there's still no wrong in it. It's only painful if there is suffering involved.

efb

Sponge25 wrote: »

It doesn't matter, they still had sex. If you can't take responsibility for that, you're not mature enough to have sex!

If it were up to me and i'm and understanding man, it would be a punishable offense! (In all countries)

Who gets punished???

Madam_X

Yes, contraception used by both is "close" but not 100% safe.

After a certain point, a fully formed baby is there though - that's why I really dislike the idea of late-term abortion, but I know a woman who has one does so under desperate circumstances.

Madam_X

Sponge25 wrote: »

It doesn't matter, they still had sex. If you can't take responsibility for that, you're not mature enough to have sex!

If it were up to me and i'm and understanding man, it would be a punishable offense! (In all countries)

So you'll wait to have sex until you're in a relationship only with a woman with whom you'd like to start a family. Fair play and best wishes.

Turtwig

tomtherobot wrote: »

I can say Bertie should be shot, free speech dictates im allowed to say that. .

No it doesn't. And you don't have free speech here.

oranbhoy67

gosuckonalemon wrote: »

I wish people would stop using the phrase "unborn child". A child refers to a human being, a foetus may be a living thing in the cellular sense of the word, but it is not a child.

In another decade or so abortion, thankfully, will be legal in Ireland. In the same way the Catholic Church will be a shadow of it's former self.

We just need for the older, less informed/enlightened generations to pass on.

At least the HSE provide a service for post abortion counselling for women who go to the UK to get it done.

It's mad to think that 200,000 Irish women have had abortions in the UK to date.

I actually think it will go the other way & future generations will be amazed that such a thoughtless holocaust of unborn Children was ever allowed on such a mass scale.


what a loss 200 000 thousand people from this country alone who never got a chance to experience life. where was there choice???


and does anyone else find the way the UK is celebrating the paralympics so ironic.. when you can terminate an unborn childs life there if it is found to have any defects ???

up for anything

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

because if they weren`t then there would be no pregnancy , therefore no boasting of booking the trip to "en ger land "

If they weren't using contraception then there would be no pregnancy - that doesn't make sense.

Sponge25 wrote: »

It doesn't matter, they still had sex. If you can't take responsibility for that, you're not mature enough to have sex!

If it were up to me and i'm and understanding man, it would be a punishable offense! (In all countries)

An understanding man?

How would you punish it? By stoning the couple or maybe just the woman?

tomtherobot

gosuckonalemon wrote: »

I wish people would stop using the phrase "unborn child". A child refers to a human being, a foetus may be a living thing in the cellular sense of the word, but it is not a child.

Next time i hear of somebody grieving a lost pregnancy or stillborn child i'll just tell them to quite their whinging, it's only a foetus.

If it's just a group of cell's, why the need for counseling if it's 'disposed of'.

I hate when people use the term foetus. It's just used to dehumanize the child to make it easier to kill.

oranbhoy67

Madam_X wrote: »

Yes, contraception used by both is "close" but not 100% safe.

After a certain point, a fully formed baby is there though - that's why I really dislike the idea of late-term abortion, but I know a woman who has one does so under desperate circumstances.

but you dont know that


you are now jumping to conclusions


too many women are using abortion as just another form of contraception


btw just to be clear i i would support abortion in the case of rape & in extreme danger to the mother

up for anything

tomtherobot wrote: »

Next time i hear of somebody grieving a lost pregnancy or stillborn child i'll just tell them to quite their whinging, it's only a foetus.

If it's just a group of cell's, why the need for counseling if it's 'disposed of'.

I hate when people use the term foetus. It's just used to dehumanize the child to make it easier to kill.

I would see it as grieving for the loss of a potential life. For some people the loss of that potential is a happy thing.

oranbhoy67

up for anything wrote: »

I would see it as grieving for the loss of a potential life. For some people the loss of that potential is a happy thing.

and therin lies the problem

Madam_X

If many women are just using abortion as a form of contraception, that's one hell of a body and emotional trauma, as well as financial expense - to be doing so often, especially women in Ireland. Who do you know that uses it as a form of contraception?

tomtherobot

up for anything wrote: »

I would see it as grieving for the loss of a potential life. For some people the loss of that potential is a happy thing.

But contraception is the loss of potential life, we don't grieve that? Havin a **** could be the loss of potential life, do you grieve if you have a ****?

partyatmygaff

gosuckonalemon wrote: »

I wish people would stop using the phrase "unborn child". A child refers to a human being, a foetus may be a living thing in the cellular sense of the word, but it is not a child.

What you wish and what people do are two completely different things. People say "unborn child" as that's a perfectly accurate description. It is both a child and unborn. You can wish what you want but it won't happen.

As for "living thing in the cellular sense of the word", all life is cellular. From a materialistic point of view, you're a very large and very organised group of cells with a few exceptions such as your hair and nails.

In another decade or so abortion, thankfully, will be legal in Ireland.

The funny thing about people who predict the future is they're almost always wrong. It's best not to speculate.

In the same way the Catholic Church will be a shadow of it's former self.

What does the Catholic Church have to do with this debate? It's not a religious debate.

We just need for the older, less informed/enlightened generations to pass on.

How utterly disrespectful and offensive. When you're old, just hope that your views aren't trashed while you get labelled as less "enlightened". While we're on it, isn't it just brilliant how we all think only our views are enlightened while the opposing views are dull and backward? It's an incredibly foolish way to think on something so far from being clear cut and easy to moralise on.

Madam_X

partyatmygaff wrote: »

something so far from being clear cut and easy to moralise on.

Aye.

oranbhoy67

Madam_X wrote: »

If many women are just using abortion as a form of contraception, that's one hell of a body and emotional trauma, as well as financial expense - to be doing so often, especially women in Ireland. Who do you know that uses it as a form of contraception?

well anyone to me that has an abortion multiple times


I dont know anyone personally & if i did i wouldnt be telling about it on here


but i know for a fact it happens.. maybe not as much here in Ireland as like you say for Financial reasons but in places like the UK where it is readily available & in most cases free.


I remember reading an interview with the actress Barbara Windsor where she basically boasted of having 5 abortions... now 1.. ok maybe it was a slip up.. and 2 is pushing it .. but 5 thats just nuts !!!! and im very much sure she is not alone in acting like this!



and her reason for this?? "I don't have any regrets about not having kids," she insists, "I've just never had those maternal feelings. I am a nurturer by nature, but I nurture adults: my friends, the people I work with. I don't want to nurture children."


Well Barbara you should have used Contraception then or refrained altogether!!