Abortion

OldNotWIse

up for anything wrote: »

Is this the royal We? :rolleyes:

There's more than one person in Ireland who does not want abortion here you know. Perhaps thats what he meant?

Millicent

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Her reason? She simply didn't want it.

But in all sincerity, is it not better that she didn't have the child rather than a child be born that knows it is resented and unwanted? Because in a lot of cases, the child would definitely know, whether the mother admitted it or not, because of how he/she was treated throughout their life.

Sponge25

eviltwin wrote: »

Very few people know about it. Maybe 3 max that I know in real life and I was only told people I was sure would not judge me.

Just don't do it again! I know I can't tell you what to do, but it's not fair and deep down you know that. You might have convinced yourself it is fair but if you really think hard you know it's not.

Like just imagine your mum aborted you! Would that be fair?

OldNotWIse

Millicent wrote: »

A sandwich doesn't make 40 weeks to make. That period of time and the visible effects of pregnancy are a big factor in why adoption is not ideal for some women.

Can't believe I made an effort to explain the fact that it was an example of a similar mindset as opposed to a direct comparison, and someone still started bleating about babies not being the same as sandwiches...sigh...

Millicent

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

Are you saying that it´s illegal to give a baby up for adoption if you´re married?

Yep, unless the High Court decides otherwise. (Link)

eviltwin

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Perhaps, but tbh we live in an age where the accusation of being "judgemental" is thrown about for anyone who dares to stand up for what they believe in or who has a view that others do not agree with. If distancing myself from someone who makes me feel uncomfortable is being "judgemental" then I am happy to be

Her reason? She simply didn't want it.

This is what I don't get. How can you just dismiss someone totally on the basis of one thing they do?

Women who have abortions are not going around with horns, they are normal women, most of us know them but don't know we know them. Its awful to think all the things I have done in my life are worth nothing now in the eyes of some people on the basis of what I did on one day in my life.

As for the woman you are describing maybe she regrets it, maybe she wishes she hadn't done it. Maybe she could do with some support.

LeeHoffmann

Her reason? She simply didn't want it.

How do you know what her reason was? You said

she didnt even know I knew

Just confused. I assume somebody told you she had an abortion because she simply didn´t want the pregnancy/baby?

Sponge25

OldNotWIse: I was standing up for you man and you call me imflammatory and troll-like? I'm 25 years old, too old to come on boards.ie to put someone down. I'm merely expressing my feelings.

Like i'm not calling anyone names or anything!

OldNotWIse

Millicent wrote: »

But in all sincerity, is it not better that she didn't have the child rather than a child be born that knows it is resented and unwanted? Because in a lot of cases, the child would definitely know, whether the mother admitted it or not, because of how he/she was treated throughout their life.

No.

Millicent

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Can't believe I made an effort to explain the fact that it was an example of a similar mindset as opposed to a direct comparison, and someone still started bleating about babies not being the same as sandwiches...sigh...

I was respectful to you in my last post and am trying to engage you. I was trying to make the point that 40 weeks is a long time to carry a child you don't want or aren't intending to keep. It can be hell emotionally for women. There was no "bleating". There's no need to be rude.

up for anything

Sponge25 wrote: »

Like just imagine your mum aborted you! Would that be fair?

How can anyone imagine that? If they had been aborted they wouldn't know or care about it. Too silly.

Mickeroo

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Her reason? She simply didn't want it.

In other words you don't know her full reasoning behind it.

cynder

Millicent wrote: »

OldNotWIse wrote: »

That's a bit OTT. It's not like childless couples are going around impregnating unsuspecting women against their wishes. But if women want to be allowed to treat their unborn essentially, as something to be discarded, then does it not make sense for someone to argue, "well, hang on, if you dont want it can I have it?".

I met a homeless guy a while ago who told me he had seen a well known cafe/snaack bar throwing out food at the end of the day (perfectly good sandwiches etc) and he asked if he could have one bc he was starving and they threw them in the bin in front of him.

Cue onslaught of "gestating a baby is not like making a sandwich" but I'm just showing another (less extreme) example of the "I dont want it but I dont want anyone else to have it" mentality (actually I'm pretty sure I had an ex like that lol)

A sandwich doesn't make 40 weeks to make. That period of time and the visible effects of pregnancy are a big factor in why adoption is not ideal for some women.

The sandwich maker showed lack of kindness, compassion and empathy, with an attitude of your nothing to do with me do why should I help. Similar to the little girl who was run over in China and no one bothered to help.

Just thinking if people showed more kindness, selflessness, consideration and compassion and emphasized more the world would be a better place.

But thats never gonna happen. Worlds still gonna be full of evil, hateful, selfish, inconsiderate, ignorant, stubborn people.

Sponge25

Millicent wrote: »

I was respectful to you in my last post and am trying to engage you. I was trying to make the point that 40 weeks is a long time to carry a child you don't want or aren't intending to keep. It can be hell emotionally for women. There was no "bleating". There's no need to be rude.

Ofcourse it is different but throwing food in the bin whilst a man is starving as absolutely reprehensible and possibly evil! Wouldn't you agree?

Millicent

OldNotWIse wrote: »

No.

Fair enough. I see you've decided you don't want to talk to me properly so there's probably no point in responding to you, is there?

Sponge25

up for anything wrote: »

How can anyone imagine that? If they had been aborted they wouldn't know or care about it. Too silly.

I'm just trying to get her to understand the magnitude of abortion! All the stuff that happened in her life, all the happiness and all the pain. All those days and nights. That wouldn't have happened if she was aborted!

OldNotWIse

Sponge25 wrote: »

OldNotWIse: I was standing up for you man and you call me imflammatory and troll-like? I'm 25 years old, too old to come on boards.ie to put someone down. I'm merely expressing my feelings.

Like i'm not calling anyone names or anything!

I think you need to relax. I agree with your values, I just think that your posts are a little over the top. I believe abortion is evil, but I really dont see the point in singling out someone on boards who has already had one and calling them evil? It's not going to achieve anything.

Millicent

cynder wrote: »

The sandwich maker showed lack of kindness, compassion and empathy, with an attitude of your nothing to do with me do why should I help. Similar to the little girl who was run over in China and no one bothered to help.

Just thinking if people showed more kindness, selflessness, consideration and compassion and emphasized more the world would be a better place.

But thats never gonna happen. Worlds still gonna be full of evil, hateful, selfish, inconsiderate, ignorant, stubborn people.

You think it's kindness to be forced to carry a pregnancy for some benevolent aim of giving it away? I regularly give food to the homeless -- that's a world away from carrying a child to term and giving it away.

Sponge25 wrote: »

Ofcourse it is different but throwing food in the bin whilst a man is starving as absolutely reprehensible and possibly evil! Wouldn't you agree?

Are you sure you're not trolling?

eviltwin

Sponge25 wrote: »

Just don't do it again! I know I can't tell you what to do, but it's not fair and deep down you know that. You might have convinced yourself it is fair but if you really think hard you know it's not.

Like just imagine your mum aborted you! Would that be fair?

This is getting ridiculous now :rolleyes:

Honestly I don't need anyone preaching to me, I don't know what the future holds.

I didn't do anything wrong, I know I did the right thing for me, I thought long and hard about it and made sure of that.

Sponge25

Millicent wrote: »

Yep, unless the High Court decides otherwise. (Link)

Seriously? Wouldn't it be alot better giving the child up for adoption than aborting it!?

OldNotWIse

Millicent wrote: »

Fair enough. I see you've decided you don't want to talk to me properly so there's probably no point in responding to you, is there?

I was simply answering a question you asked me. Is that ok with you?

up for anything

OldNotWIse wrote: »

There's more than one person in Ireland who does not want abortion here you know. Perhaps thats what he meant?

Perhaps then he should have phrased it differently. It sounded like he was trying to convince us/himself that he had the moral majority behind him.

Sponge25

eviltwin wrote: »

This is getting ridiculous now :rolleyes:

Honestly I don't need anyone preaching to me, I don't know what the future holds.

I didn't do anything wrong, I know I did the right thing for me, I thought long and hard about it and made sure of that.

It's not getting rediclous! I just dunno how people think hard about 'me' and not their child!

As I said i'm not putting you down, just talkin' about it!

eviltwin

Sponge25 wrote: »

Seriously? Wouldn't it be alot better giving the child up for adoption than aborting it!?

But that is the whole point Sponge. I'm married therefore adoption is not an option for me. I cannot legally put any child I have up for adoption.

Fizzlesque

Gurgle wrote: »

With proper support and counseling, she should feel like a hero.

A hero? Do you reckon? Such self congratulatory emotions have never made their prescence felt in the 24 years I've struggled to come to terms with handing my baby to another woman. No amount of counselling will ever make me feel like a hero - some wounds never heal; 24 years and I still cry like a wounded animal when I think about the worst decision I ever made. I no longer cry every day, like I did at the start, but feeling like a hero, hmmmm...I'd be happy to stop feeling full of guilt and always carrying a knot of pain in my heart.

OldNotWIse

eviltwin wrote: »

This is what I don't get. How can you just dismiss someone totally on the basis of one thing they do?

Women who have abortions are not going around with horns, they are normal women, most of us know them but don't know we know them. Its awful to think all the things I have done in my life are worth nothing now in the eyes of some people on the basis of what I did on one day in my life.

As for the woman you are describing maybe she regrets it, maybe she wishes she hadn't done it. Maybe she could do with some support.

It's not my job to support someone who has made a bad decision. I'm not a social worker. I'm not a therapist. If I am uncomfortable in someone's company because something they have done really goes against my relief system, I am entitled to distance myself.

Sponge25

eviltwin wrote: »

But that is the whole point Sponge. I'm married therefore adoption is not an option for me. I cannot legally put any child I have up for adoption.

Oh, I honestly didn't know! I thought married people could give a baby up for adoption. I don't see the sense in it being illegal.

Ofcourse giving babies constantly up for adoption would be reprehensible but a once off should be allowed.

Is it hard for people to get an adopted baby or is their loads of them trying to find home in Ireland?

Like is their a shortage of babies? Don't want to make them sound like a commodity

Edit: Eviltwin, I wouldn't dismiss someone on the basis off one action if it wasn't extremely cruel, i'm sorry for saying it's depraved etc. It's just something that makes me angry!

cynder

My 13 year old told me never to have another baby, she doesn't want any more brothers or sisters, she felt so strongly about it she felt she had to tell me. I have 2 other younger sons, full siblings to her.

But she continued if you ever do get pregnant by accident, these things do happen, I don't want you to kill it, have an abortion or give it away, I could live with it, but please dont plan another baby.

OldNotWIse

up for anything wrote: »

Perhaps then he should have phrased it differently. It sounded like he was trying to convince us/himself that he had the moral majority behind him.

Perhaps.

btw what's a "moral majority"?

LeeHoffmann

Yep, unless the High Court decides otherwise.

Where does it say that? I didn´t find it

roast

This is directed at the Original post.... not reading through all the replies.

If women who've chosen to have an abortion chose so due to a pregnancy against their control (i.e. Rape), should they not be entitled to counselling?

it's a procedure to remove a physical growth which isn't alive. If that's the case why the need for counseling?

If there was no need for counselling if this is the case, then why do cancer victims get counselling?

eviltwin

OldNotWIse wrote: »

It's not my job to support someone who has made a bad decision. I'm not a social worker. I'm not a therapist. If I am uncomfortable in someone's company because something they have done really goes against my relief system, I am entitled to distance myself.

So its irrelevant to you how the abortion came about? Just the fact she's done it means she is no longer someone you want to talk to. You won't even take the time to try and find out if she did it under pressure or how she feels about it now.

Supporting someone doesn't have to involve making them "better", its just about being there as a friend.

Millicent

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I was simply answering a question you asked me. Is that ok with you?

Besides the last post accusing me of "bleating" and giving a monosyllabic answer to a genuine question, while painting an earlier post as hysterical, I'm just a bit baffled as to the aggressiveness when I had actually tried to change tack with you and have a respectful conversation. That's okay with me if that's what you want; it's just a pity.

OldNotWIse

Sponge25 wrote: »

Oh, I honestly didn't know! I thought married people could give a baby up for adoption. I don't see the sense in it being illegal.

Ofcourse giving babies constantly up for adoption would be reprehensible but a once off should be allowed.

Is it hard for people to get an adopted baby or is their loads of them trying to find home in Ireland?

Like is their a shortage of babies? Don't want to make them sound like a commodity

Big shortage. When my parents adopted my brother, the adoption agency actually advertised for prospective parents (non in a "good home wanted" kind of way lol) but they placed an ad saying they had "opened the book for registration" or something (more or less said the same thing)

Now, we have abortion on demand. So there are very few babies to adopt.

LeeHoffmann

Of course giving babies constantly up for adoption would be reprehensible but a once off should be allowed.

So if somebody doesn´t want to have a child, they should become celibate?

eviltwin

Sponge25 wrote: »

Edit: Eviltwin, I wouldn't dismiss someone on the basis off one action if it wasn't extremely cruel, i'm sorry for saying it's depraved etc. It's just something that makes me angry!

Its okay that it makes you angry, I can't find fault with that. And honest I'm not a monster, I'm actually quite a nice person really

OldNotWIse

Millicent wrote: »

Besides the last post accusing me of "bleating" and giving a monosyllabic answer to a genuine question, while painting an earlier post as hysterical, I'm just a bit baffled as to the aggressiveness when I had actually tried to change tack with you and have a respectful conversation. That's okay with me if that's what you want; it's just a pity.

It was a yes/no question though

Apologies about the bleating remark (I usually say "parping" lol) but it was below the belt.

But to answer your question in more detail, I really dont think any child will say, "Oh I feel so unwanted, I wish my mum had killed me instead" - very few parents do not automatically love their child the moment they see them for the first time (and indeed one of the reasons why adoption could be so difficult)

Millicent

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

Where does it say that? I didn´t find it

In the bulletpoints midway down the page.

Sponge25

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

So if somebody doesn´t want to have a child, they should become celibate?

No they should be responsible. People who have multiple pregnancies who don't want a baby are an excuse for a human being. Me and my ex were together for 6 years, we didn't want a baby and she never got pregnant once, been with my gf now for a year and she hasn't got pregnant. I'm the most fertile man in Ireland (haha) so why can't everyone else be resposible like me?

Sponge25

eviltwin wrote: »

Its okay that it makes you angry, I can't find fault with that. And honest I'm not a monster, I'm actually quite a nice person really

Would you let it happen again? Just out curiosity? if it wasn't a medical emergency etc?

Zulu

Millicent wrote: »

But in all sincerity, is it not better that she didn't have the child rather than a child be born that knows it is resented and unwanted? Because in a lot of cases, the child would definitely know, whether the mother admitted it or not, because of how he/she was treated throughout their life.

And if you ask those children would they rather be dead, you think they'd say yes? :rolleyes: Come off it.

...aside from the fact that you make the assumption that the parents would resent the child after it was born, which is a significant leap.

There's a lot of "unwanted" "surprise" children who grew up in loving homes.

Gurgle

Fizzlesque wrote: »

A hero? Do you reckon? Such self congratulatory emotions have never made their prescence felt in the 24 years I've struggled to come to terms with handing my baby to another woman. No amount of counselling will ever make me feel like a hero - some wounds never heal; 24 years and I still cry like a wounded animal when I think about the worst decision I ever made. I no longer cry every day, like I did at the start, but feeling like a hero, hmmmm...I'd be happy to stop feeling full of guilt and always carrying a knot of pain in my heart.

I don't really understand, do you regret losing the child or having it?

Mickeroo

Sponge25 wrote: »

No they should be responsible. People who have multiple pregnancies who don't want a baby are an excuse for a human being. Me and my ex were together for 6 years, we didn't want a baby and she never got pregnant once, been with my gf now for a year and she hasn't got pregnant. I'm the most fertile man in Ireland (haha) so why can't everyone else be resposible like me?

Contraception isn't 100% reliable, accidents can happen.

Who are these brazen hussies having multiple pregnancies though?

OldNotWIse

eviltwin wrote: »

So its irrelevant to you how the abortion came about? Just the fact she's done it means she is no longer someone you want to talk to. You won't even take the time to try and find out if she did it under pressure or how she feels about it now.

Supporting someone doesn't have to involve making them "better", its just about being there as a friend.

Its not irrelevant. I already stated that she did so because she simply did not want it. By her own admission, it would interfere with her party lifestyle.

You keep saying, "oh so she had an abortion and now you dont want to talk to her" as if stating what I have already said over and over is going to achieve something. Yes I do not want to be in her company because she had an abortion. I dont know why you keep asking me this?

Sponge25

Fizzlesque: Atleast you didn't terminate the baby so don't feel bad. The baby is happy and having a good life (I hope!)

Sponge25

Mickeroo wrote: »

Contraception isn't 100% reliable, accidents can happen.

Who are these brazen hussies having multiple pregnancies though?

Maybe once, but 3-4-5 times?

OldNotWIse

Zulu wrote: »

And if you ask those children would they rather be dead, you think they'd say yes? :rolleyes: Come off it.

...aside from the fact that you make the assumption that the parents would resent the child after it was born, which is a significant leap.

There's a lot of "unwanted" "surprise" children who grew up in loving homes.

My cousin falls into this category. Boy he really messed up my aunts plans for 3 perfect children, a dog and a 4 bed bungalow with a nice garden - but last I checked I'm pretty sure he's allowed sit at the table with them and he even has his own bed

Millicent

Zulu wrote: »

And if you ask those children would they rather be dead, you think they'd say yes? :rolleyes: Come off it.

...aside from the fact that you make the assumption that the parents would resent the child after it was born, which is a significant leap.

There's a lot of "unwanted" "surprise" children who grew up in loving homes.

There's a poster on Boards who was adopted who has said a few times that they wouldn't give a crap if they were aborted because they'd never know. I also know a few unwanted children who are actively resented and know it. It's pretty sad to see.

Mickeroo

Sponge25 wrote: »

Maybe once, but 3-4-5 times?

Pardon?

OldNotWIse

Mickeroo wrote: »

Contraception isn't 100% reliable, accidents can happen.

Who are these brazen hussies having multiple pregnancies though?

But seriously, what % of abortions are carried out because of failed contraception?? Does the term "scapegoat" mean anything here??