Should we scrap the Croke Park agreement?

tomtherobot

So there's been plenty of debate here on the Croke Park agreement but i think it would be useful to add a poll.

This will allow us to more accurately estimate the support for either camp, i mean that's what poll are for right?

I've you don't think this is necessary or useful, feel free not to respond or to use the Atari Jaguar option.

Stinicker

Payrises for all!

Mr Benevolent

Stinicker wrote: »

Payrises for all!

Miniature abortions for others.

woodoo

Whats the rush old bean, its due to end in 18 months anyhow.

kippy

Yeah, a boards poll. A true reflection of public sentiment and a real driving force for policy change in Ireland.

tomtherobot

kippy wrote: »

Yeah, a boards poll. A true reflection of public sentiment and a real driving force for policy change in Ireland.

Well if polls can be used, they can be used in a situation that doesn't suit you. Do we get rid of polls or just the one's that don't portray the public service in a good light?

kub

Our tax income is at 2003 levels, the private sector have been hammered. 70% of the HSE budget goes on salaries, etc.

Am I correct in thinking that when this agreement was hammered out that one of the conditions of it was that if economic conditions continued to decrease that the agreement could be re examined?

If so, why has this not happened?

Kidchameleon

tomtherobot wrote: »

What's a miniature abortion?

Dwarf having abortion...

kippy

tomtherobot wrote: »

Well if polls can be used, they can be used in a situation that doesn't suit you. Do we get rid of polls or just the one's that don't portray the public service in a good light?

What do you mean "a situation that doesn't suit me".
This is an online discussion forum. It doesn't actually effect me in any way what a poll says or doesn't say.

Personally I think lads like Fitzpatrick, Aherne, Drumm, Callelly, O Donohoe, the ex financial regulator, Mick Wallace and the countless others at the high end of our society should be investigated and punished (if applicable) in a court of law, before any further cuts to pay in the public service, social welfare cuts or tax increases be on the agenda.

byhookorbycrook

kub wrote: »

Our tax income is at 2003 levels, the private sector have been hammered.

So raise taxes then. Private sector had not been hammered, many have not been hit in any way, all public sector workers have been cut.

galwayrush

woodoo wrote: »

Whats the rush old bean, its due to end in 18 months anyhow.

Clockwork Angels tour, starting in a few weeks , nice if it went on for 18 months,.:D

ChunkyLover_53

We?

Since when did anyone give a f**k what we think?

Mr Benevolent

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

So raise taxes then. Private sector have not been hammered, many have not been hit in any way, all public sector workers have been cut.

Ah Mr Cowan, welcome to the debate.

byhookorbycrook

Confab wrote: »

Ah Mr Cowan, welcome to the debate.

Wow, what rapier wit, will add greatly to the "debate."

tomtherobot

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Wow, what rapier wit, will add greatly to the "debate."

Now, now no need to be so touchy Mr Cowan, had a few to drink did we?

TeddyTedson

This country is ****ing ridiculous. You have a minister for health trying to cut spending in the HSE yet he can't cut the wages of the workers.
Consultants on €250,000 a year, then they have their private patients on top of that.
They will all agree that it's disgraceful that he's now trying to take money from the disabled, but will you see any offering to take a cut, no.
The way things are no minister for health can possibly do a good job. It's actually impossible.

And 2013s budget is going to be the toughest Budget by FG yet, according to Enda Kenny himself.

Most of us are not going to have a pot to piss in by the end of things.
Something has to give.

I'm thinking their will come a time that people just ****ing lose it. People argue that Irish people never do anything. But even the most tolerant people have their limits, and I think we're going to see the straw that really breaks the camels back in the next few years.

Ghandee

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

So raise taxes then. Private sector had not been hammered, many have not been hit in any way, all public sector workers have been cut.

I think the snipe is aimed at the top level tbh.

Ordinary ps workers (mid range 25-40k) have indeed suffered as much as private workers.

I agree with you, hardly fair to lump ps workers all in the same boat.

tomtherobot

kippy wrote: »

Personally I think lads like Fitzpatrick, Aherne, Drumm, Callelly, O Donohoe, the ex financial regulator, Mick Wallace and the countless others at the high end of our society should be investigated and punished (if applicable) in a court of law, before any further cuts to pay in the public service, social welfare cuts or tax increases be on the agenda.

So because there are some murdering scum in the country, it's ok for me to beat up public servants?

(And yay the poll's been reopened, thank you mods)

kippy

tomtherobot wrote: »

So because there are some murdering scum in the country, it's ok for me to beat up public servants?

(And yay the poll's been reopened, thank you mods)

I dont get your point.

Lumbo

I'm currently wiping my ass with your tax dollars :cool:




















Voted Atari Jaguar btw.

StephenHendry

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

So raise taxes then. Private sector had not been hammered, many have not been hit in any way, all public sector workers have been cut.

+1

Biggins

TeddyTedson wrote: »

...I think we're going to see the straw that really breaks the camels back in the next few years.

I think your going to see it sooner than that!

jester77

Something needs to be done.

If teachers would rather send home pupils than take a pay cut to facilitate the employment of other teachers, then there is little hope for the future generation

c_man

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

So raise taxes then. Private sector had not been hammered, many have not been hit in any way, all public sector workers have been cut.

What planet are you living on? I suppose all the dole-heads just decided en-masse to skip work around 2008. Funny coincidence that.

rossie1977

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

So raise taxes then. Private sector had not been hammered, many have not been hit in any way, all public sector workers have been cut.

350,000 jobs have been lost in the private sector over the last 4 years

old boy

it is not a case of should we, it is a case of we need to, saying that howlin will not cut his wages or pension entitlements, that is for the poor, as my mantra is the poor always have to pay, no one has proved my wrong yet.

tomtherobot

kippy wrote: »

I dont get your point.

You've said we should be focused on the wrongs of the politicians and bankers, does that mean we should ignore any possible wrongs in the public service?

Similarly, if we focus only on murderers, we can ignore people committing assaults. So I can start beating up public servants.

im invisible

tomtherobot wrote: »

Do we get rid of polls or just the one's that don't portray the public service in a good light?

set up a poll and lets find out

Reality_Check1

kub wrote: »

If so, why has this not happened?

The unions

TeddyTedson wrote: »

This country is ****ing ridiculous. You have a minister for health trying to cut spending in the HSE yet he can't cut the wages of the workers.
Consultants on €250,000 a year, then they have their private patients on top of that.
They will all agree that it's disgraceful that he's now trying to take money from the disabled, but will you see any offering to take a cut, no.
The way things are no minister for health can possibly do a good job. It's actually impossible.

And 2013s budget is going to be the toughest Budget by FG yet, according to Enda Kenny himself.

Most of us are not going to have a pot to piss in by the end of things.
Something has to give.

I'm thinking their will come a time that people just ****ing lose it. People argue that Irish people never do anything. But even the most tolerant people have their limits, and I think we're going to see the straw that really breaks the camels back in the next few years.

Its easy to look at consultants and blame them for the cost of the Health service because they are obviously the most well payed and so become an easy target of public irk. The real problem with the HSE is the complete waste of mid management sucking resources from the system and contributing very little in terms of output.

As for teachers and nurses their unions are ridiculous! They wont accept that we can no longer continue to pay them the same as during the boom times. It should just be stated straight out that this is their new wage in line with the cuts that need to be made. Let them strike - they will come back in when it falls on deaf ears and they need the money to live

tomtherobot

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

Let them strike

Here here. And might i take this opportunity to offer my baton wielding strike breaking services

kippy

tomtherobot wrote: »

You've said we should be focused on the wrongs of the politicians and bankers, does that mean we should ignore any possible wrongs in the public service?

Similarly, if we focus only on murderers, we can ignore people committing assaults. So I can start beating up public servants.

I'm not saying ignore anything. I am saying that from a purely personal point of view, further pay cuts etc would be far more palatable had I seen that we had actually learned from out mistakes as a nation and ensured that the crooks who have had a major part to play in the level of this countries collapse are convicted for what they did.

If you read a few of my posts elsewhere you'll see that I pretty much agree that further cuts and major reform are required right across the board when it comes to government spending.

kippy

tomtherobot wrote: »

Here here. And might i take this opportunity to offer my baton wielding strike breaking services

You think this country needs striking workers and all that goes with it?
Really?

hatrickpatrick

Cut government subsidies to banks before cutting anything else IMO.
I cannot abide the idea that ordinary taxpayers will be hit while golden circle bank managers continue to take home six figure salaries out of my pocket. At least the public service provides a service, the bailed out banking sector just provides headaches. They should be left to fend for themselves in the mess they created.

redjim

Yes Scrap the agreement ,and distribute the all Ireland tickets fairly ,

hatrickpatrick

kippy wrote: »

You think this country needs striking workers and all that goes with it?
Really?

Yes, why not exactly?
Those in power need a serious kick up the proverbial arse to stop looking after their interests and start looking after the people's interests.

dudara

It's not a public vs private debate, and comparisons shouldn't be dragged out and beaten to death. The only thing that those comments cause are posts from people going "I'm a nurse and..." or "I've had 50% of my hours cut in private employment...". This isn't about individuals, it's about the country as a whole.

The main thing is that the HSE and other departments are grossly inefficient. This is for a myriad of reasons. Like any boss, the Minister for Health, should have the ability to drive changes that would make his business efficient.

who_me

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

So raise taxes then. Private sector had not been hammered, many have not been hit in any way, all public sector workers have been cut.

As someone whose income has been heavily hit by the recession, and now have thousands of euros of debt to repay, with new charges and taxes and levies coming out of the woodwork... I really don't want to live on the same planet as you. Can we play rock, paper, scissors to see which of us gets to stay?

Daniel S

TeddyTedson wrote: »

Most of us are not going to have a pot to piss in by the end of things.
Something has to give.

I'm thinking there will come a time that people just ****ing lose it. People argue that Irish people never do anything. But even the most tolerant people have their limits, and I think we're going to see the straw that really breaks the camels back in the next few years.

The people who are currently working, in particular upper working and middle classes, cannot pay for everything/everyone. These are normally the people who take this shíte and put up with it as they are easy targets. I doubt they will for much longer and f**king fair play to them if they stand up to it.

keith16

Anyone else fed up of this shìte in AH?

Shryke

keith16 wrote: »

Anyone else fed up of this shìte in AH?

kippy

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Yes, why not exactly?
Those in power need a serious kick up the proverbial arse to stop looking after their interests and start looking after the people's interests.

Public sector strikes are the last thing this country needs at the moment.

If there were enough people sharing the same beliefs as you they should mobilise themselves.

msg11

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

So raise taxes then. Private sector had not been hammered, many have not been hit in any way, all public sector workers have been cut.

Yeah well I am on about 15,000 a year and paying every levy and tax there is unlike before, so I think everyone has got hit in the private sector.

Continuing this way it won't be worth my while to get up for work.

tomtherobot

kippy wrote: »

You think this country needs striking workers and all that goes with it?
Really?

Just to clarify i don't think we should have strikes. I was responding to an earlier post the jist of which was that pro-Croke Parkers are abusing the threat of strike to their advantage.

I don't think that threat is as great as they make out because the vast majority of people wouldn't support them and they'd fall on their arses.

If this threatening behavior is prolonging a situation that is damaging the country then it's better they have their strike and get it over with. Obviously, I would rather they see sense and drop Croke Park because it's clearly unjust and holding us back. Somehow, I can't see that happening.

Biggins

We are screwed!

Tonight: http://www.thejournal.ie/alan-shatter-budget-comments-588530-Sep2012/#comment-595293

Shatter warns backbenchers of ‘need for backbone’ ahead of Budget

It is also important, in order to achieve our objectives in the national interest, that not only members of Cabinet but also members of the Fine Gael and Labour parliamentary parties exercise their considered judgement when addressing issues…

… understand that what they say has both a domestic and international audience and may have unintended consequences and not succumb to targeted lobbying by vested interests on issues be they fiscal, economic, social or relating to foreign policy matters.

He’s saying:

1. We are going to get screwed! and

2. They are not going to listen to others!

Charming eh? What a bunch of fcukers!

I see serious trouble ahead!
Buckle down?
They better leave the bloody country.
There will be head-hunting yet by some irate people!

ilovesleep

rossie1977 wrote: »

350,000 jobs have been lost in the private sector over the last 4 years

Not to mention, many in the private sector especially retail, hospitality, services, etc got their hours severely reduced.

galwayrush

The Troika will be making the next agreement, it will be harsh.

Biggins

galwayrush wrote: »

The Troika will be making the next agreement, it will be harsh.

It might the straw that FINALLY will break the camels back!

ilovesleep

Biggins wrote: »

We are screwed!

Tonight: http://www.thejournal.ie/alan-shatter-budget-comments-588530-Sep2012/#comment-595293



He’s saying:

1. We are going to get screwed! and

2. They are not going to listen to others!

Charming eh? What a bunch of fcukers!

I see serious trouble ahead!
Buckle down?
They better leave the bloody country.
There will be head-hunting yet by some irate people!

Ah we're not that fcuked.

There's money to reward Wallace.
There's money for 10,000 silk ties.
There's money to spend 10,000 on xmas cards.

However there won't be money to keep the travel pass's perk for the disabled, sick and their carers. But there will be plently of money for the politicians to keep their perks and travel expenses.

Bunch of dirty bollix's FG are rubbing Austerity in our faces while they keep themselves sitting pretty.

Grayson

dudara wrote: »

It's not a public vs private debate, and comparisons shouldn't be dragged out and beaten to death. The only thing that those comments cause are posts from people going "I'm a nurse and..." or "I've had 50% of my hours cut in private employment...". This isn't about individuals, it's about the country as a whole.

The main thing is that the HSE and other departments are grossly inefficient. This is for a myriad of reasons. Like any boss, the Minister for Health, should have the ability to drive changes that would make his business efficient.

How is a discussion about the Croke park agreement not a discussion about Public Vs Private? And I fail to see what the efficiency of the health service has to do with the agreement.

galwayrush

Biggins wrote: »

It might the straw that FINALLY will break the camels back!

A lot of public sector workers won't know what's hit them when it happens, the reality that most private sector workers are already in is a nasty place.

Biggins

ilovesleep wrote: »

...Bunch of dirty bollix's FG are rubbing Austerity in our faces while they keep themselves sitting pretty.

Austerity ???

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5325/42457837391759623331018.jpg

I will be back out on the streets again. :mad: :mad: :mad: