Should we scrap the Croke Park agreement?

kippy

Japer wrote: »

Its never too late to help the country...and ensure all of our mid and long term futures;)

Think of how our public service have creamed it this last ten or 12 years....and how much lower the public services are paid in other developed countries, for example. Think of the UK with average public sector pay of only 21.5k, and having to pay property tax, water rates, higher fuel costs etc.

Wait until you and your colleagues are on an average of less than that Kippy:D
That day is certain to come, given our worsening finances and the fact the IMF etc is here.

Creamed it? Really? A select few may have "creamed it" but the whole of the public sector most certainly have not.
Your figure for an "average public sector worker" is about 7K too low as well.
I suspect you are using figures that do not take into account worksharing and part time
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2065479/Public-sector-workers-earn-4-000-year-pay-premium-compared-private-staff.html
(Works out at about 36000 euro at todays rates, or 40K at the rate as off jan 2008)

The day the public service in this country is on an average of less than 25K euros is the day this country is truly fcuked.

maryk123

The reality that people dont understand is that ps workers have bills, loans and mortgages like everyone else. cutting their wages is not going to save the country its just going to make everyone else happy that they are feeling extra pain. where would we be without the services they provide, have people visited hospitals lately to see the pressue staff are under already due to people running out of the public sector retiring early these people have not been replaced and if the people working there take any more hits they may as well go on the dole. dont even start about the dole where in the world would a government hand an 18 year old who has never worked a day in his/her life and contributed nothing to the economy 100 suro to sit on their arse at home and people are criticising the croke park agreement - there are a lot of other cuts that could happen eg anyone who is 18 and finished school should not get a penny where is the incentive to work jesus i never say 100 at 18 and we are shovelling it out to them. when the croke park cuts wages people still wont be happy and there will be a lot more people struggling financially.

kraggy

galwayrush wrote: »

My experience,
Some weeks i have no income at all,others, a partial wage. despite this, the revenue will hound me for various taxes.
No overdraft from bank to help with the lean weeks with slow cash flow,
Had to stop paying a pension ages ago, in the real world we have to find the money ourselves to pay for one.
No health insurance, no social welfare,
Hard cash has to be found to pay basic utilities and to buy food, no guarentee of getting paid any week, so it's a constant struggle.
I really envy those who have secure guarenteed to be paid employment with the perks that go with it.

Self-employment was your own choice. You could have got a job in the public sector if you had wanted to but you chose differently.

Nobody forced you to be self-employed.

woodoo

All this attention on the public service as if it will solve our problems to cut it. It won't, not even close. People would wake up the day after a 20 or 30% cut in the PS paybill and realise it hasn't done a whole lot for the deficit.

You are all being played by the media. They are stoking it all up so people will listen to their radio programs, read their papers watch their current affairs show.

Reekwind

Japer wrote: »

Average public sector pay in the UK is stg 21.5k a year, so if the public sector here had any decency or moral fibre they would reduce their average public sector pay dramatically from its current average of 49k a year without threatening or even dreaming of "industrial unrest" lol

Actually, the median public sector wage in the UK is in fact £29k (approx €35k) while the median private sector wage is £25k (€31k)

cantdecide

Any stats as to how many public sector lives have been ruined as a result of the economy? What about stats as to how many public sector employees have taken their own lives as a result of the effects of the recession? Any public sector workers have to emigrate over their pay cuts?

What was the question again?

ncdadam

woodoo wrote: »

All this attention on the public service as if it will solve our problems to cut it. It won't, not even close. People would wake up the day after a 20 or 30% cut in the PS paybill and realise it hasn't done a whole lot for the deficit.

You are all being played by the media. They are stoking it all up so people will listen to their radio programs, read their papers watch their current affairs show.

The paranoia is beginning to show now.

Reekwind

I honestly don't understand the sadism of the cantdecide's post; the wishing of death and misery on teachers, nurses, etc, for actually being able to defend their rights and working conditions

How's this for a radical thought: start channelling some of that misanthropic energy into actually looking to better your own situation. Organise, protest, unionise, whatever, but stop knocking people down just because they've done better in defending their living standards than yourself

Otherwise the only alternative is a race to the bottom where everyone competes to see who can inflict them most pain on themselves. You wouldn't know it from this thread but the lesson from the past few years is that unions work

It's like watching lemmings jump off a cliff sometimes

goz83

My wife is a teacher at second level and has been teaching for about 7 years now, since she left college. It has been by no means an easy road financially, considering we had 2 young children by the time we made a decision to buy a house and settle down for the kids. My wifes salary has always been the "stable" income and my income was at times very high and at times very low (sales). As a private sector worker (self-employed) I can say it's not an easy road and I have recently closed a small building and maintenance company I ran for a short time. I am still self employed, but It's by no means a comfortable place to be. I can never be sure that clients will be coming consistently, but thankfully they do and it's mostly by referrals that I keep my business running.

To get to my point, the "stable" salary has been eroded terribly since 2009 and more and more, my unpredictable income has been relied on to pay the big mortgage (we didn't buy a mansion. we bought a 40 year old, small 3-bed semi from my dad in north dublin). It's hard enough right now to keep the bills paid, but we're lucky to have her mother taking the kids when we're at work for a fraction of the cost of private childcare. If my wife were to only start teaching now, we wouldn't be able to pay the mortgage, let alone the other bills. So while it might seem grossly unfair (and in some cases it is i'm sure) to pay a new teacher a third less than someone who started a couple of years ago; one must also take into account that the new teacher is likely to benefit from half price houses compared to the prices in late 2008.

I also want to say that the extra hours that teachers have to do is a total joke. They are being very poorly implemented (at her school at least). Instead of doing her normal 9-5 and then collecting our 3 children from her mother on her way home, they have introduced these extra hours, which have a very negative impact, for what I see to be hours wasted doing nothing. They are not teaching hours. They are admin hours, which I understand teachers would normally do between classes, or at home. Sometimes she won't get home til 9pm and I have had to cut my working day in half (i start at 12 usually) to go out of my way and collect the kids and take care of them. Don't get me wrong, I love having the quality time with them, but this impacts on my prime time hours, where the lions share of my income is made.

I do believe that the CPA needs to be reopened, but only for those earning over 100k. I think its important to say my wife earns far less than 50k gross, so i'm not just putting the slicing bar a little above her salary. I also strongly disagree with the fact they have no right to strike under the CPA. On that clause alone, the government are winners. The CPA is probably the only thing that prevented a Greece in Ireland.

whiskey_bar

yes i think it needs to be renegotiated but reforms in this country should not stop there

their are plenty of closed shops which have not been touched by the rescession , the GP , dentist and energy sectors , sheltered sectors like this need to be opened up to proper competition ,that way when pay cuts and wellfare cuts arrive , the hit will be softened as going to the local doc should cost close to 30 euro than 50 , esb workers reduced salarys should lower energy bills etc

whiskey_bar

goz83 wrote: »

My wife is a teacher at second level and has been teaching for about 7 years now, since she left college. It has been by no means an easy road financially, considering we had 2 young children by the time we made a decision to buy a house and settle down for the kids. My wifes salary has always been the "stable" income and my income was at times very high and at times very low (sales). As a private sector worker (self-employed) I can say it's not an easy road and I have recently closed a small building and maintenance company I ran for a short time. I am still self employed, but It's by no means a comfortable place to be. I can never be sure that clients will be coming consistently, but thankfully they do and it's mostly by referrals that I keep my business running.

To get to my point, the "stable" salary has been eroded terribly since 2009 and more and more, my unpredictable income has been relied on to pay the big mortgage (we didn't buy a mansion. we bought a 40 year old, small 3-bed semi from my dad in north dublin). It's hard enough right now to keep the bills paid, but we're lucky to have her mother taking the kids when we're at work for a fraction of the cost of private childcare. If my wife were to only start teaching now, we wouldn't be able to pay the mortgage, let alone the other bills. So while it might seem grossly unfair (and in some cases it is i'm sure) to pay a new teacher a third less than someone who started a couple of years ago; one must also take into account that the new teacher is likely to benefit from half price houses compared to the prices in late 2008.

I also want to say that the extra hours that teachers have to do is a total joke. They are being very poorly implemented (at her school at least). Instead of doing her normal 9-5 and then collecting our 3 children from her mother on her way home, they have introduced these extra hours, which have a very negative impact, for what I see to be hours wasted doing nothing. They are not teaching hours. They are admin hours, which I understand teachers would normally do between classes, or at home. Sometimes she won't get home til 9pm and I have had to cut my working day in half (i start at 12 usually) to go out of my way and collect the kids and take care of them. Don't get me wrong, I love having the quality time with them, but this impacts on my prime time hours, where the lions share of my income is made.

I do believe that the CPA needs to be reopened, but only for those earning over 100k. I think its important to say my wife earns far less than 50k gross, so i'm not just putting the slicing bar a little above her salary. I also strongly disagree with the fact they have no right to strike under the CPA. On that clause alone, the government are winners. The CPA is probably the only thing that prevented a Greece in Ireland.

unfortunatley their are not near enough people earning over 100 k for cuts there to make a dent in the deficit , their are still too many people earning between 45 and 60 k per year , teachers , guards , nurses etc , harsh reality

Monty Burnz

whiskey_bar wrote: »

yes i think it needs to be renegotiated but reforms in this country should not stop there

their are plenty of closed shops which have not been touched by the rescession , the GP , dentist and energy sectors , sheltered sectors like this need to be opened up to proper competition ,that way when pay cuts and wellfare cuts arrive , the hit will be softened as going to the local doc should cost close to 30 euro than 50 , esb workers reduced salarys should lower energy bills etc

The legal profession needs to be looked at - I believe the ridiculously high cost of legal fees is something the Troika has issues with (and of course these costs affect us all through our taxes and our own interactions with the legal industry). Hopefully the Troika will force something through against the will of the immensely powerful legal lobby.

whiskey_bar

Monty Burnz wrote: »

The legal profession needs to be looked at - I believe the ridiculously high cost of legal fees is something the Troika has issues with (and of course these costs affect us all through our taxes and our own interactions with the legal industry). Hopefully the Troika will force something through against the will of the immensely powerful legal lobby.

the legal profession overall dont earn near as much as the likes of the medical profession , the upper echelons do indeed make out like bandits but your average solicitor earns nothing like your average GP , cost of a consulation with an average solicitor in a provincial town is no more than a hundred euro for an hour , a gp would earn double that in the same time , a consultant , four times that

Monty Burnz

whiskey_bar wrote: »

the legal profession overall dont earn near as much as the likes of the medical profession , the upper echelons do indeed make out like bandits but your average solicitor earns nothing like your average GP , cost of a consulation with an average solicitor in a provincial town is no more than a hundred euro for an hour , a gp would earn double that in the same time , a consultant , four times that

Yes, but it is still far too much, and it is a closed shop.

whiskey_bar

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Yes, but it is still far too much, and it is a closed shop.

not nearly to the degree the likes of the GP sector is

Monty Burnz

whiskey_bar wrote: »

not nearly to the degree the likes of the GP sector is

So we only fix some of the closed shops?

cantdecide

Reekwind wrote: »

I honestly don't understand the sadism of the cantdecide's post; the wishing of death and misery on teachers, nurses, etc,

That would have been outrageous if that were what I had said.

Reekwind wrote: »

start channelling some of that misanthropic energy into actually looking to better your own situation. Organise, protest, unionise, whatever, but stop knocking people down just because they've done better in defending their living standards than yourself

Are we meant to protest entire sectors of the economy back into activity? Why do some choose to believe that the private sector isn't necessary. At this stage, yes, everyone in the private sector wishes they were ward of the state too but that's impossible.

ahnowbrowncow

goz83 wrote: »

To get to my point, the "stable" salary has been eroded terribly since 2009 and more and more, my unpredictable income has been relied on to pay the big mortgage (we didn't buy a mansion. we bought a 40 year old, small 3-bed semi from my dad in north dublin). It's hard enough right now to keep the bills paid, but we're lucky to have her mother taking the kids when we're at work for a fraction of the cost of private childcare. If my wife were to only start teaching now, we wouldn't be able to pay the mortgage, let alone the other bills. So while it might seem grossly unfair (and in some cases it is i'm sure) to pay a new teacher a third less than someone who started a couple of years ago; one must also take into account that the new teacher is likely to benefit from half price houses compared to the prices in late 2008.

It is grossly unfair. She's no better qualified, in some cases they are less qualified because a lot of new teachers these days also have their masters. There is no valid reason why they should be paid more than new teachers and hopefully they'll be brought down to that level fairly soon.

Sorry to be harsh but having an unsustainable mortgage is not a valid reason not to have a pay cut, if you had waited a couple of years you would also be able to avail of these half price houses you think these new teachers are benefiting from.

goz83 wrote: »

I also want to say that the extra hours that teachers have to do is a total joke. They are being very poorly implemented (at her school at least). Instead of doing her normal 9-5 and then collecting our 3 children from her mother on her way home, they have introduced these extra hours, which have a very negative impact, for what I see to be hours wasted doing nothing. They are not teaching hours. They are admin hours, which I understand teachers would normally do between classes, or at home. Sometimes she won't get home til 9pm and I have had to cut my working day in half (i start at 12 usually) to go out of my way and collect the kids and take care of them.

What extra hours?
The provision, with effect from the start of the 2010/11 school year, of an additional hour per week to be available to facilitate, at the discretion of management, school planning, continuous professional development, induction, substitution and supervision (including supervision immediately before and after school times).

Einhard

Japer wrote: »

In the overall scheme of things the "reforms" have been tiny. There was an Irish born + bred teacher on the radio recently who is now teaching in England, and he compared the teachers lot in the UK with here. In the UK, teachers hare paid considerably less, work longer hours, do lots of parent/teacher meetings in the evenings, have much less holidays , have less of a pension etc.

There have been many significant reforms in the public sector over the past few years. Anyone who states otherwise is either uninformed or delusional. Either way, it's not the healthiest manner in which to debate.

One such reform is that parent teacher meetings are now held outside school hours...just like the UK. Would it be too much to ask that you actually inform yourself before posting? It's somewhat tiring to have to constantly correct such basic errors of fact.

Public sector pay is still double what it was 10 years ago. Slash it 50%, now
that would be a "huge reform".

This is a ludicrous suggestion. It boggles the mind that someone would seriously suggest such a thing. Halving the pay for public sector workers would ensure that new teachers would get €13500 a year. Goof luck trying to attract anyone into the profession.

More significantly, cutting PS pay by 50% overnight would have a devestating impact on the economy. Tens of thousands of people would go bankrupt; mortgages would go into arrears and homes be foreclosed; promising students would be unable to go to college...the impact, both economically and socially would be absoluetly disastarous. I really find it hard to believe that you're seriously suggesting such an insane course of action.

Japer wrote: »

Not just for teachers - but pay and pension for the public service is worse in the UK than it is here. Average public sector salary in the UK is £21.5k a year - and there is controversy there about how high that is. And they have to pay household tax, water charges, higher fuel costs etc in the UK.

If I was a public servant or p.s. taxpayer in Germany, Denmark, Holland , UK etc I'd be mighty pissed off my taxes were were being lent to the Irish government to pay the public sector in Ireland so much more than they themselves get.

Japer wrote: »

Average public sector pay in the UK is stg 21.5k a year, so if the public sector here had any decency or moral fibre they would reduce their average public sector pay dramatically from its current average of 49k a year without threatening or even dreaming of "industrial unrest" lol ( considering the state of the countrries financies, that we are being bailed out by the IMF / UK etc ).

Where are you pulng your figures from? I did a bit of checking, and according to the Guardian, the median public sector pay in the UK is significantly higher than you're figure- at almost £28000, it works out at around €35000, which brings it significantly closer to the Irish figure that you cite...and for which you provide no links.

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Of course the private sector has been hit hardest, how can anyone say otherwise?
The construction sector is gone to the wall with little prospect of recovery anytime soon, pubs are closing as people have no money to go out anymore, every situation like this amounts to people out of work.

If you look at the private sector as one big homogenous group, then yes, it's been hardest hit. But to look at it in that way is illusory and somewhat dishonest because, while many private sector workers have been hit hard, many more have not.

In the public sector, everyone has been hit. That's simply not true in the private sector. Again, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be more cuts, but rather trying to bring a little reality to the debate.

I said that many private sector workers have taken a reduction in wages just to
keep their jobs, you can go on about data and links but if you look around you
it is happening to people in every corner of the country.

My brother has had to take a pay cut of €20 a week as the factory he works in is going bad, might not seem much to you but when you're in a low paid job it's alot.

So if the evidence and data don't support your position, then ignore them? If people in the private sector operated their businesses in such a manner, they wouldn't be long in goign to the wall.

The simple point is- not everyone in the private sector has taken a wage cut. Everyone in the public sector has. Your subjective examples are irrelevant really- they carry no statistical weight. For your brother and his €20 cut, I can offer the example of my brother who has enjoyed several increases in pay over the past two years. Does that mean that everyone private sector worker is better off over the past few years? Of course not, and I wouldn't claim it on such subjective examples, but you are trying to do exactly that.

You want factual information, well there it is.

Hmmm, I think I'll differ on this analysis.

cantdecide wrote: »

Any public sector workers have to emigrate over their pay cuts?

Me. I'm off next month.

kippy

cantdecide wrote: »

That would have been outrageous if that were what I had said.



Are we meant to protest entire sectors of the economy back into activity? Why do some choose to believe that the private sector isn't necessary. At this stage, yes, everyone in the private sector wishes they were ward of the state too but that's impossible.

What do you mean by "ward of the state"?

The private sector is of course necessary and I don't think anyone here has stated that it isnt. (It's an impossibility for it not to exist either in some form obviously)
A health and flourishing private sector is beneficial for everyone.

whiskey_bar

Monty Burnz wrote: »

So we only fix some of the closed shops?

not at all , im just conscious of how certain professions are always fair game for demonising while others are seen as worthy and honorable

whiskey_bar

one of the main problems in this economy right now is the absolute determination of the goverment to shield people in later years at the expense of the young

beit the state pension not having been touched or how the likes of young qualified teachers are not only starting off with a 25% pay cut but who are passed over for full time posts by way of bringing back recently pensioned ( without any cuts ) teachers in their sixties , the transfer of wealth from the young to the old in this country is a grossly underreported phenomenon

it will not the the old who rebuild this country so we need to stop hammering the young or none of them will be left in the place

goz83

whiskey_bar wrote: »

unfortunatley their are not near enough people earning over 100 k for cuts there to make a dent in the deficit , their are still too many people earning between 45 and 60 k per year , teachers , guards , nurses etc , harsh reality

Well. My OH earns under the 45k mark, but I don't see up to 50k, or even 60k being excessive for the work teachers, nurses and guards do. I have many a time sat and listened to conversations with my wife when other people start getting political and bash the "benefits" and how "easy" teachers have it. I find it funny when after all they have said, my wife asks "would you like to be a teacher then?" Their faces say it all. I don't think I would mind that much being a teacher myself, but I prefer being my own boss.

Also, I can't remember the exact details of what I am about to say, but my wife is also paying into some kind of pension pot (which is mandatory), which she will never be eligible to claim from, due to the amount of years she will be a teacher. Maybe some PS worker can clarify what I am trying to say?

tomtherobot

kippy wrote: »

As a rough guide.
A PS Staff member on 45K per annum gross, would take home roughly 28K per annum.
Assume a mortgage of 1000 per month.
Assume childcare of 700 per month.
Assume heating bill of 1500 per annum
Assume insurances of all types (Car, Home (and associated), Health,) 1600 Per annum
Assume soon to be arriving to a house near you, water and house tax. Perhaps 700 per annum,
We're up at 24+K per annum on those expenses alone.
Without getting into, food, clothing+footwear, Motor Tax, Motor Maintenance, and other expenses which could be reduced if required, TV/Phone/Broadband etc
Thats having 1 young kid.

Wouldn't that person be entitled to a single family tax allowance? Or else their OH would most likely be doing the childminding? I know very little about tax rates outside my own, but it sound's like a lot of tax for a working one parent family?

goz83

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

It is grossly unfair. She's no better qualified, in some cases they are less qualified because a lot of new teachers these days also have their masters. There is no valid reason why they should be paid more than new teachers and hopefully they'll be brought down to that level fairly soon.

I disagree. They know what their salary will be, before they take the job. They also get paid extra for whatever qualifications they have. AFAIK, someone with a masters is paid more than someone with a degree, regardless of where that qualification lies, so you could have someone with a masters in history, teaching English and getting paid more, simply because they have a masters. Can you imagine what would happen if salaries were brought down to that level for people who are already struggling/failing to keep food on the table?

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

Sorry to be harsh but having an unsustainable mortgage is not a valid reason not to have a pay cut, if you had waited a couple of years you would also be able to avail of these half price houses you think these new teachers are benefiting from.

Don't be arrogant. You're not sorry at all. You're just trying to put your point across, so please don't be falsely apologetic. If I had waited waited a couple of years....give me a break. Many people, including myself felt that if we did not get a house when we did, we probably never would have. At the time, we were living in a small 1 bed bungalow on my inlaws land. Our son slept in the main house and our daughter stayed with us, in our bedroom. Rental costs were beyond a joke and we were cracking up. I busted my ass in a job I hated, just so we could get the figures right, so we could finally buy a house, to call a home. I'm clearly not the only one who was in this type of situation, as so many took out massive mortgages, just so they could house their family.

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

What extra hours?
The provision, with effect from the start of the 2010/11 school year, of an additional hour per week to be available to facilitate, at the discretion of management, school planning, continuous professional development, induction, substitution and supervision (including supervision immediately before and after school times).

Did I say extra daily hours? Every school works it differently and whatever way my wifes timetable is done, every 2nd week, for a day, her working hours are stretched and the staff are called to a scheduled meeting at around 5pm. Tough cheese if your classroom hours are finished as early as 2pm. You have to be there at 5pm to 8, or 9pm, depending on the way they schedule things.

Qualitymark

TeddyTedson wrote: »

This country is ****ing ridiculous. You have a minister for health trying to cut spending in the HSE yet he can't cut the wages of the workers.
Consultants on €250,000 a year, then they have their private patients on top of that.
They will all agree that it's disgraceful that he's now trying to take money from the disabled, but will you see any offering to take a cut, no.
The way things are no minister for health can possibly do a good job. It's actually impossible.

And 2013s budget is going to be the toughest Budget by FG yet, according to Enda Kenny himself.

Most of us are not going to have a pot to piss in by the end of things.
Something has to give.

I'm thinking their will come a time that people just ****ing lose it. People argue that Irish people never do anything. But even the most tolerant people have their limits, and I think we're going to see the straw that really breaks the camels back in the next few years.

Non-violent revolution handbook:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dictatorship-Democracy-Gene-Sharp/dp/1846688396/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1347201452&sr=1-1

kippy

tomtherobot wrote: »

Wouldn't that person be entitled to a single family tax allowance? Or else their OH would most likely be doing the childminding? I know very little about tax rates outside my own, but it sound's like a lot of tax for a working one parent family?

I gave a scenario, there are variables and indeed glitches in it.

Take the kid and spouse out of the equation if it clarifies the point.
Also, that net take home is inclusive of the pension deductions.

This site can be a very good help:
http://taxcalc.eu/

ahnowbrowncow

goz83 wrote: »

I disagree. They know what their salary will be, before they take the job. They also get paid extra for whatever qualifications they have. AFAIK, someone with a masters is paid more than someone with a degree, regardless of where that qualification lies, so you could have someone with a masters in history, teaching English and getting paid more, simply because they have a masters. Can you imagine what would happen if salaries were brought down to that level for people who are already struggling/failing to keep food on the table?

Nope, they've also got rid of that for new teachers, no more allowance for having a masters or a first class honours degree, so someone teaching with a pass degree is getting paid 33% more than someone with a masters, yeah that's fair.
Struggling to put food on the table with a teachers salary, surely that's just bad financial management on their part and why should every other tax payer pay for that?

goz83 wrote: »

Don't be arrogant. You're not sorry at all. You're just trying to put your point across, so please don't be falsely apologetic. If I had waited waited a couple of years....give me a break. Many people, including myself felt that if we did not get a house when we did, we probably never would have. At the time, we were living in a small 1 bed bungalow on my inlaws land. Our son slept in the main house and our daughter stayed with us, in our bedroom. Rental costs were beyond a joke and we were cracking up. I busted my ass in a job I hated, just so we could get the figures right, so we could finally buy a house, to call a home. I'm clearly not the only one who was in this type of situation, as so many took out massive mortgages, just so they could house their family.

Renting is just as costly these days as it was in 2008 but new teachers have to put up with that, they can't just go get a mortgage for a house. And even if they wanted to it's unlikely they'd be granted one so they can't avail of the lower priced houses.
And I wasn't being arrogant I don't want to see people struggle but just because you have a mortgage should not mean you are immune to pay cuts.

goz83 wrote: »

Did I say extra daily hours? Every school works it differently and whatever way my wifes timetable is done, every 2nd week, for a day, her working hours are stretched and the staff are called to a scheduled meeting at around 5pm. Tough cheese if your classroom hours are finished as early as 2pm. You have to be there at 5pm to 8, or 9pm, depending on the way they schedule things.

They have scheduled meetings from 5pm-8pm regularly? That's not part of the CPA and tbh it's the first I've heard of it.
Unless it's paid supervision for evening study classes?

woodoo

ncdadam wrote: »

The paranoia is beginning to show now.

Look at the indo today, wall to wall croke park agreement. Barely a word on anything else. Why? to sell papers that's why.

woodoo

Monty Burnz wrote: »

The legal profession needs to be looked at - I believe the ridiculously high cost of legal fees is something the Troika has issues with (and of course these costs affect us all through our taxes and our own interactions with the legal industry). Hopefully the Troika will force something through against the will of the immensely powerful legal lobby.

Its the same story with the ESB, people view them as Public Servants. They are not they are a semi state company owned by the government. They have not had the pension levy or the paycut. And they have had a payrise since 08. No reforms nothing. But they go completely under the radio because most of the population don't understand the difference between them and the PS. If they had a cut then we could have cheaper electricity. Thats what the public need. Cheaper prices.

ncdadam

woodoo wrote: »

Look at the indo today, wall to wall croke park agreement. Barely a word on anything else. Why? to sell papers that's why.

Because the time has come for the PS to be brought into line with the reality the country is facing.
The government is supposed to be running this country, not the PS unions.
The sooner PS workers realise this, the better.
This is not aimed at the lower paid in that sector, rather the ones on over the €50k mark who's sense of entitlement is plain for all to see.

average hero

The country is in debt like many other countries throughout the world. We have one of the highest salary payscales in the world for the public sector. That should not be so in the situation we are in!

Private sector workers are (more-so) based on their performance and this isn't the case in the public sector.

When we have public sector workers in Ireland earning more than their counterparts in France and Germany who are lending us money it speaks for itself.

Gardai, nurses, and teachers have hard jobs and they have my sympathy but I believe that A LOT (NOT all) of public sector workers are overpaid and not ENTITLED to it.

We can't afford it - end of story.

sock puppet

woodoo wrote: »

If they had a cut then we could have cheaper electricity.

A little cheaper, but staff costs are not why electricity prices are high.

Damien360

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

So raise taxes then. Private sector had not been hammered, many have not been hit in any way, all public sector workers have been cut.

The vast, vast majority of those who lost their jobs were private sector. Not very many full time people in public sector have even had to worry about that possibility.

goz83

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

Nope, they've also got rid of that for new teachers, no more allowance for having a masters or a first class honours degree, so someone teaching with a pass degree is getting paid 33% more than someone with a masters, yeah that's fair.
Struggling to put food on the table with a teachers salary, surely that's just bad financial management on their part and why should every other tax payer pay for that?

The allowance is still in effect for those pre-CPA. Look mate, the public sector is not the only area with these pay differences for qualifications and experience. In the Private Sector, there is more "who you know" to take into account if you want to go there. And why not throw in the argument of men getting paid more than women who hold the same position? My point was that new teachers know what they will be getting paid before they take a job and are more likely going to be able to manage their budget around that. Someone who is already in the system since before the lowering of salaries already have their expenses in stone (The Mortgage). What planet are you living on? I am now referring to the statement you made about a teachers salary and struggling to put food on the table. You seem to have difficulty grasping the concept that a mortgage is a very big bill, often consuming the majority of a couples, or singles income, depending on individual circumstances. Add the other bills in there and the costs of raising children (possibly for export) into the mix and you might begin to understand where i'm coming from, or you might just dismiss it, as it doesn't sit neatly with your previous comments.

I don't know many teachers. I know four personally, including my wife. Two of them are genuinely struggling to keep above the red. The other is a single man in his late forties who still lives at home with his mother, so he is doing just fine. At the moment, my wife and I are managing, but I can honestly say that a pay cut of €25-30% would most certainly leave us in a default situation. Our credit rating would be fecked. My cash-flow would dry up trying to keep a roof over our heads and two others would be out of a job. I know the landlord is barely paying his own rent/rates, so losing two rentals would mean he would have to default on the commercial premises. The other 3 occupied offices would suffer, but I can't say they would end up closing, but would certainly have to move.

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

Renting is just as costly these days as it was in 2008 but new teachers have to put up with that, they can't just go get a mortgage for a house. And even if they wanted to it's unlikely they'd be granted one so they can't avail of the lower priced houses.
And I wasn't being arrogant I don't want to see people struggle but just because you have a mortgage should not mean you are immune to pay cuts.

Wrong. Renting is much cheaper now than it was in 2008. The house beside me has been rented for nearly 20 years and I know the landlord. In 2006, he was getting €1600 per month for rent. Now he is getting €1050 per month. At the start of the year, A house at the other end of the street was advertised for €1050 also. Asking prices are higher than rental prices. Same scenario applies nowadays when buying a house, or a car. So, in 2008, our option was to pay €1600 per month renting, or €1900 on a mortgage per month and live in the house I grew up in. I have attached an example of a a 3 bed semi in the general area I live (infact, the selected house is in a nicer area and is a bit more expensive) http://www.daft.ie/searchrental.daft?id=1250965

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

They have scheduled meetings from 5pm-8pm regularly? That's not part of the CPA and tbh it's the first I've heard of it.
Unless it's paid supervision for evening study classes?

It's up to each school as to what way they implement those admin hours. The school my wife works at chooses to use them for late meetings. Maybe because the principal doesn't like to go home? She is a new principal, so perhaps wants to be seen towing the line more than needed. I don't know. What I do know is that the added hour per week is not being used properly and seems to be a waste of time. It would be like me keeping my secretary in for an extra hour (unpaid) on a Friday afternoon to make sure all the files throughout the week have been updated. But this work is done throughout the day anyway, in the same way a teacher will do admin when they have free classes, or supervision hours, or they will do the admin at home.

edit: I've just been speaking to my wife and it's 2 extra hours per week. One hour by CPA and another came in some tie later. The unions were in explaining it to the principals. What makes these additional hours so inconvenient is the fact that they have no consideration for anything else going on outside of school...ie...childcare arrangements. The principal also conveniently closes the school earlier on a Friday, so she can get by the rush hour traffic to her home to her country home. I noticed that none of the after school meetings throughout the school term land on a Friday. I know this, because the dates are in my diary to collect the kids. The extra hours are used every fortnight and fall on Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays, but NEVER on a Friday. Politician in the making, or what?

maryk123

So the people who take in your car tax and the people who book you into hospitals and the people who type up the reports who cleaned the hospital while you were in there directed you where to go. the people who take your dole application and take abuse the people who investigate false claims. serioussly there are more than teachers and gardai in the ps. there are typists/porters/librarians/receptionist/kitchen staff/laundry/that keep the ps running and they are on nothing like the salary of the teachers and gardai and they are the ones the cuts will hit the most. will people get real this bull**** of the ps not taking hits is absolutely stupid. i agree with the above poster when the croke park is finished and they starting cutting wages from the bottom up which is where they will start because remember the politicians are on the ps wages so the cuts wont start at the top-then the public will be delighted that these people are struggling-some people have no idea how others live. dont think that ps workers are loaded and living comfortably because its the opposite everyone is struggling and finding it hard. cut the dole for the young people and get them doing courses instead of sitting on their arse at home being handed 100-186 euro a week. start with that before cutting the people who are keeping your children in school, helping the sick in hospital, helping you pay your car tax, keeping libriaries, fire stations open. there are other ways of saving money. get real.

woodoo

ncdadam wrote: »

Because the time has come for the PS to be brought into line with the reality the country is facing.
The government is supposed to be running this country, not the PS unions.
The sooner PS workers realise this, the better.
This is not aimed at the lower paid in that sector, rather the ones on over the €50k mark who's sense of entitlement is plain for all to see.

They could cut it in tandem with social welfare, child benefit and the pensioners.

Japer

Its not just in these recessionary times that public servants are paid and pensioned astronomically. A long time ago David McWilliams pointed out:


[]Ireland's average public sector pay in 2004 of €45,643 is the highest in the range of six advanced EU countries and compares with Britain at €35,189 and Germany €33,905. Irish public sector pay is 30% higher than Britain's.

[]Ireland is unique in the group of six in paying its public sector more than private sector pay,a whopping 28% more. And that's before valuing jobs for life security and gold plated final salary pensions.This is a form of state orchestrated looting of the private sector.

[]In the other countries, private sector pay is higher than the public sector's: in Britain by 8%,Germany 5%,Denmark 8%,Finland 12% and Netherlands 0.4%.

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2008/1...onomic-history

Colmustard

Japer wrote: »

Its not just in these recessionary times that public servants are paid and pensioned astronomically. A long time ago David McWilliams pointed out:


[]Ireland's average public sector pay in 2004 of €45,643 is the highest in the range of six advanced EU countries and compares with Britain at €35,189 and Germany €33,905. Irish public sector pay is 30% higher than Britain's.

[]Ireland is unique in the group of six in paying its public sector more than private sector pay,a whopping 28% more. And that's before valuing jobs for life security and gold plated final salary pensions.This is a form of state orchestrated looting of the private sector.

[]In the other countries, private sector pay is higher than the public sector's: in Britain by 8%,Germany 5%,Denmark 8%,Finland 12% and Netherlands 0.4%.

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2008/1...onomic-history

So would you say reverse the benchmarking agreement.

It would be stupid to scrap the croke park agreement "now", this government has managed to push through austerity with little to no public opposition. We never went "Greek", if they break that agreement there will be industrial chaos in the PS. Then it will spread thru-out the private sector.

I say see the agreement through and renegotiate another one, but not one as favourable to the PS.

Japer

Colmustard wrote: »

It would be stupid to scrap the croke park agreement "now", this government has managed to push through austerity with little to no public opposition.

austerity me """", the public sector wage bill in Ireland is still double what it was ten years ago. You'll see austerity yet;)

bob50

OK firstly this Govt. hasnt got the balls to scrap, revise, change this croke park agreement

Yes i think if agreement is scrapped it will cause all kinds of strikes etc

And maybe thats the way to go it will for one thing pull down this god forsaken govt. and imo it cant go quick enough

It galls me however that the PS unions effectivley run this country

Galwayguy35

maryk123 wrote: »

So the people who take in your car tax and the people who book you into hospitals and the people who type up the reports who cleaned the hospital while you were in there directed you where to go. the people who take your dole application and take abuse the people who investigate false claims. serioussly there are more than teachers and gardai in the ps. there are typists/porters/librarians/receptionist/kitchen staff/laundry/that keep the ps running and they are on nothing like the salary of the teachers and gardai and they are the ones the cuts will hit the most. will people get real this bull**** of the ps not taking hits is absolutely stupid. i agree with the above poster when the croke park is finished and they starting cutting wages from the bottom up which is where they will start because remember the politicians are on the ps wages so the cuts wont start at the top-then the public will be delighted that these people are struggling-some people have no idea how others live. dont think that ps workers are loaded and living comfortably because its the opposite everyone is struggling and finding it hard. cut the dole for the young people and get them doing courses instead of sitting on their arse at home being handed 100-186 euro a week. start with that before cutting the people who are keeping your children in school, helping the sick in hospital, helping you pay your car tax, keeping libriaries, fire stations open. there are other ways of saving money. get real.

You're statement about young people who are unemployed through no fault of their own shows how clueless some people are about the current situation we are in.

I'd also love to know who these people are that "help me pay my car tax".

Einhard

Japer wrote: »

Its not just in these recessionary times that public servants are paid and pensioned astronomically. A long time ago David McWilliams pointed out:


[]Ireland's average public sector pay in 2004 of €45,643 is the highest in the range of six advanced EU countries and compares with Britain at €35,189 and Germany €33,905. Irish public sector pay is 30% higher than Britain's.

[]Ireland is unique in the group of six in paying its public sector more than private sector pay,a whopping 28% more. And that's before valuing jobs for life security and gold plated final salary pensions.This is a form of state orchestrated looting of the private sector.

[]In the other countries, private sector pay is higher than the public sector's: in Britain by 8%,Germany 5%,Denmark 8%,Finland 12% and Netherlands 0.4%.

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2008/1...onomic-history

Are you for real? You seem to making all this up as you go along. A few pages back you were claiming that the average public sector pay in the UK was £21500, now you're stating it's far higher. You seem to just google a few terms, and select the first links that seem to confirm your POV. There's literally no consistency to your argument at all. Does it not even bother you that your stats and evidence are all over the place?

You claim that Irish PS wages are 30% higher than Britain's. Even were to accept that as true (which is difficult since you're so patently unreliable), it ignores the fact that the cost of living is significantly higher in Ireland. According to the Irish Times, it's 20% higher. I'll post a link in a bit, I have it saved on another computer. Again, I'm not saying that Croke Park should not be re-opened, but I do think it's important that some type of objective debate take place, and you're clearly not interested in that.

woodoo

Einhard wrote: »

Are you for real? You seem to making all this up as you go along. A few pages back you were claiming that the average public sector pay in the UK was £21500, now you're stating it's far higher. You seem to just google a few terms, and select the first links that seem to confirm your POV. There's literally no consistency to your argument at all. Does it not even bother you that your stats and evidence are all over the place?

You claim that Irish PS wages are 30% higher than Britain's. Even were to accept that as true (which is difficult since you're so patently unreliable), it ignores the fact that the cost of living is significantly higher in Ireland. According to the Irish Times, it's 20% higher. I'll post a link in a bit, I have it saved on another computer. Again, I'm not saying that Croke Park should not be re-opened, but I do think it's important that some type of objective debate take place, and you're clearly not interested in that.

Aul Japer is well known over in Irish Economy forum

DarkerDai

I would be in favor of revising the Croke Park agreement if it enabled young teachers to get their foot in the door. My girlfriend has been attempting for five years to get her dip done but has had no luck. However, a retired principal who took over a temporary teachers position is now a principal again, a teacher who was made permanent was told after two weeks he wouldn't have a job because a principal in another school needed it and two positions in a special needs school were handed to two unqualified personnel because they knew the principal. This has all happened in the last few weeks in one county.

Colmustard

Japer wrote: »

austerity me """", the public sector wage bill in Ireland is still double what it was ten years ago. You'll see austerity yet;)

But less what it was 4 years ago.

I am for shrinking that ps wage bill some how, but not yet.

maryk123

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

You're statement about young people who are unemployed through no fault of their own shows how clueless some people are about the current situation we are in.

I'd also love to know who these people are that "help me pay my car tax".

Clueless that an 18 year old can drop out of school and be handed 100 euro for sitting on their arse. its you who is clueless. they should be FORCED to train. what example are we setting the young people - here take 100 for doing nothing and get used to a life of sitting at home-is that what we are teaching the young of today. They should only get that 100 if they train and if they stop it should be stopped thats how you get the young people off their ass.

Also the people who are helping you pay your car tax are the ps who are sitting behind the desk taking forms answering queries.

honestly if it needs explaining.

blackhound

As someone who works in the public sector I really don't think the solution to the overspending and inefficiency that is prevalent will actually be solved one way or the other by removing the Croke Park agreement early.

In my observations the problems are much more deep rooted than simply 'we're spending too much lets stop'.

The signs are quite clear (at least where I work) that what will happen should management be allowed to fire/dismiss people is that all the low pay scale employees (myself included) will gradualy see themselves pushed out of their jobs to be replaced by contract/agency workers. Now to my mind the only purpose this will serve, is to appease Europe (Germany) as the government will then be able to say look we've reduced our "wage bill" however they will still be spending as much if not more on staff but they will no longer be directly employed and the balance sheets will call their wages, operational expenses or something of that ilk rather than wages.

Now maybe I'm wrong about this but that definitely is the writing on the wall in my work place. Your job will be safe as long as you're one of the bigger earners.

In the last year management in my organisation have brought in contractors to do part of my work that I was previously doing. I nor my colleagues did not ask for this "assistance" nor want it. I am now in affect banished from parts of my workplace so that contractors can work in that area. In this time of economic stress I would expect and quite rightly to have to work harder and am willing to but for some unknown reason to me I am being told, in my opinion, to do less work.

Sorry about the long message but it is really frustrating to hear this nonsense from people who go on about how handy the public sector is, how we should be grateful to have a job, how we all earn way too much and how we should all be fired. At times its like people want you to feel ashamed for being a public servant, I chose not to go after the big money in the private sector, when it was there and now that it's not, listening to the media you would feel it was somehow my fault.

Rant Over:(

ilovesleep

maryk123 wrote: »

Clueless that an 18 year old can drop out of school and be handed 100 euro for sitting on their arse. its you who is clueless. they should be FORCED to train. what example are we setting the young people - here take 100 for doing nothing and get used to a life of sitting at home-is that what we are teaching the young of today. They should only get that 100 if they train and if they stop it should be stopped thats how you get the young people off their ass.

Also the people who are helping you pay your car tax are the ps who are sitting behind the desk taking forms answering queries.

honestly if it needs explaining.

Clap trap,

When I was going to school, 1 person left after the junior cert (he went and did an apprenticeship). That was 1 person from a class of about 90. I'd say for the most part many young people have a drive to do something with their lives and young people you are talking about who want to drop out of studies and do nothing are few and far between.

So brings me onto my next point. The opportunities for young people. College fees are too expensive and many young people and their families will not have funds for college and if income is low, loans may not be available for them. After that, they may they may look in perhaps a PLC or fas or another state funded study, such as failte ireland (known as cert, a few years ago). Such courses may be booked and full to the brim, that they may not get a place on a course that they are interested in. So I'd say there are many young people who are caught in a catch 22 situation. And then there are probably other young people who are doing course after course and gaining no employment afterwards due to the umemployment situation of the course.
So please don't shoot down young people. It's difficult for them.

I'm going to refer to something that you wrote earlier now:

maryk123 wrote: »

So the people who take in your car tax and the people who book you into hospitals and the people who type up the reports who cleaned the hospital while you were in there directed you where to go. the people who take your dole application and take abuse the people who investigate false claims. serioussly there are more than teachers and gardai in the ps. there are typists/porters/librarians/receptionist/kitchen staff/laundry/that keep the ps running and they are on nothing like the salary of the teachers and gardai and they are the ones the cuts will hit the most. will people get real this bull**** of the ps not taking hits is absolutely stupid. i agree with the above poster when the croke park is finished and they starting cutting wages from the bottom up which is where they will start because remember the politicians are on the ps wages so the cuts wont start at the top-then the public will be delighted that these people are struggling-some people have no idea how others live. dont think that ps workers are loaded and living comfortably because its the opposite everyone is struggling and finding it hard. cut the dole for the young people and get them doing courses instead of sitting on their arse at home being handed 100-186 euro a week. start with that before cutting the people who are keeping your children in school, helping the sick in hospital, helping you pay your car tax, keeping libriaries, fire stations open. there are other ways of saving money. get real.

I'll agree with the top half of your post, most certainly. I'm sure that there are many, many in.the ps that have no comfort or security or whatever and they find themselves in hard times to.


You mentioned it here in your own post of a major problem. Cuts should be happening from the very top down, but that won't happen because the very people at the top are the politicians and civil service, the very ones that will be emptying their own pockets. Greed really. But younger generations and everybody who find themselves in difficult times are being strung to keep other individuals, sitting comfy.

But even all the pay the poloticians and civil service get wouldn't fill the deficit that Ireland has. The problems run much bigger. What's needed is reform all across the board and work and jobs for the unemployment sitaution. Instead what do we have. A jobsbridge schemed where it is being abused, no end. Taking real jobs and paying jobs out from the economy. Incompetency from our leaders and those in power.

goz83

ilovesleep wrote: »

Clap trap,

Instead what do we have. A jobsbridge schemed where it is being abused, no end. Taking real jobs and paying jobs out from the economy. Incompetency from our leaders and those in power.

Totally Agree