Should we scrap the Croke Park agreement?

bamboozle

should we? yes
will we? no

bluecode

Check out this:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0910/council-staff-to-work-longer-hours.html

The Croke Agreement is working. Yay! :rolleyes: All staff will have to work at least a 34 week. New staff must work a horrendous 35 hour week. Wonder how they'll work that out.

Meanwhile in the real world everyone else including the council outdoor staff work a 39 hour week.

Pathetic, equally pathetic is the response of the unions:

However, unions had argued that increasing working hours would constitute a reduction in a pay rates and was precluded under the Croke Park Agreement.

No doubt they will used the extra hours to surf the web and defend themselves from vile attacks on them from the media and people like me.

Right there is exactly what's wrong with the PS and the Croke Park agreement.

Galwayguy35

maryk123 wrote: »

Clueless that an 18 year old can drop out of school and be handed 100 euro for sitting on their arse. its you who is clueless. they should be FORCED to train. what example are we setting the young people - here take 100 for doing nothing and get used to a life of sitting at home-is that what we are teaching the young of today. They should only get that 100 if they train and if they stop it should be stopped thats how you get the young people off their ass.

Also the people who are helping you pay your car tax are the ps who are sitting behind the desk taking forms answering queries.

honestly if it needs explaining.

Maybe you should go to the nearest dole queue and tell them that they are getting €100 for sitting on their arse, typical PS answer looking out from your protected little world.

Secondly yeah they give advice but they don't help me pay it, it's my money that does that.

ncdadam

The PS work 34 hours a week?
34 hours?
What ever happened to the 40 hour week?
This is an absolute joke that people in the real economy are paying for.
Bull****e like this has the country the way it is.
Bertie and benchmarking eh, screwing the country big style more like.
I hope the troika sort this ****e out soon.

kippy

ncdadam wrote: »

The PS work 34 hours a week?
34 hours?
What ever happened to the 40 hour week?
This is an absolute joke that people in the real economy are paying for.
Bull****e like this has the country the way it is.
Bertie and benchmarking eh, screwing the country big style more like.
I hope the troika sort this ****e out soon.

You only find this out now? And wonder why the country is the way it is?

maryk123

Have been to the dole queue so nothing new there. i still dont care what you say no 18 year old should be handed 100 euro, they should be made do a course rather than sitting at home. I would have no problem telling an 18 year old they shouldnt be getting money for sitting at home.

my husband recently had to interview someone for a summer job and they were getting 188 from social welfare and the company would pay 400 for the week, not even a full weeks work and his reply was it wasnt enough why because he was getting 188 for sitting at home. this is the reality of the situation.

i never said the ps that work in the car tax help you pay your car tax.obviously you pay this yourself they are just the fools that help people process their car tax, without them you wouldnt be able to get your car tax, another thankless job working fo the ps.

ncdadam

kippy wrote: »

You only find this out now? And wonder why the country is the way it is?

Well I don't work in the PS and to be honest I never had much respect for it.
Any dealings I've ever had with it, passport's, driving licences, forms etc or having the misfortune to have been on the dole for a time, always left me with the impression that the people in there were really jobsworths who seemed to hate their job and the general public they were dealing with.
I think most people who join the PS go in with good intentions, but get into that 'don't rock the boat and keep your head down' mode.

Regarding the 34 hour thing, well that's a disgrace.
5 days pay for 4 days work, maybe that's why their in the PS because they wouldn't be allowed get away with that kind of crap in the real world.

I think we need the troika here for another while yet!

Shryke

maryk123 wrote: »

Have been to the dole queue so nothing new there. i still dont care what you say no 18 year old should be handed 100 euro, they should be made do a course rather than sitting at home. I would have no problem telling an 18 year old they shouldnt be getting money for sitting at home.

my husband recently had to interview someone for a summer job and they were getting 188 from social welfare and the company would pay 400 for the week, not even a full weeks work and his reply was it wasnt enough why because he was getting 188 for sitting at home. this is the reality of the situation.

i never said the ps that work in the car tax help you pay your car tax.obviously you pay this yourself they are just the fools that help people process their car tax, without them you wouldnt be able to get your car tax, another thankless job working fo the ps.

You'll find a lot of people who have that attitude are far past 18.

ncdadam

maryk123 wrote: »

i never said the ps that work in the car tax help you pay your car tax.obviously you pay this yourself they are just the fools that help people process their car tax, without them you wouldnt be able to get your car tax, another thankless job working fo the ps.

Are you serious, you want thanks for doing your job?
Get off the stage.
Thankfully car tax can be done online now so the general public mostly don't have to deal with people who seem to hate their job and having to deal with the public.

maryk123

there is no point at this stage its just nit picking - my original thread stated that there are more people working in the ps other than teachers and gardai. i merely said even the people taking in the car tax work for the ps - never ask for thanks for them doing their job-i never said they paid the car tax I merely said they worked for the ps. yes you can do it on line and thats great. reality is the ps is not all teachers and gardai there are a lot of back room workers.

thats it i have never seen so many people twist words to suit their argument. read the post properly instead of saying of you want thanks for a job i cant see where this was said. anyhow i give

woodoo

ncdadam wrote: »

Regarding the 34 hour thing, well that's a disgrace.
5 days pay for 4 days work, maybe that's why their in the PS because they wouldn't be allowed get away with that kind of crap in the real world.

What you mean the real world like Germany. They work on average 35 hr weeks.

ncdadam

woodoo wrote: »

What you mean the real world like Germany. They work on average 35 hr weeks.

Source?

Galwayguy35

Well I happened to be one of the unfortunate people who was trying to get a passport in 2010 when the nice people in that department decided to stop work.

It's not much fun driving 200 miles up to Dublin only to be turned away on two occasions.

In my job if I turn away a customer because I don't feel like doing my job I would be shown the door and I'm sure other Private Sector workers would as well.

The difference is we might not like our job but we are just glad to have one and don't take it for granted and see it as "thankless" as we are getting paid to work.

PauloMN

Scrap it, we are in crisis when we are having to borrow €1bn per month to keep the lights on. Some ideas:

- Keep basic pay the same for the time being for those under €100k. Above that, fairly substantial pay cuts
- Ensure all high earners fall under the ceiling agreed
- 39 hour working week to replace daft 32/33/34 hour arrangements
- Scrap overtime payments, time-in-lieu provision for OT worked over 3 or 4 hours p/w, OT under 3 hours p/w should be accepted without payment
- Scrap all but the most basic allowances i.e. keep travel allowances
- Performance monitoring/review system for all employees
- Review sick days taken, need to change mentality of sick day "entitlements", they are NOT holidays to be used up
- Never ever get the state into a situation again where such an agreement is signed off and ends up being a noose around our necks
- Increments, cancel them for now, crazy to even think about having them

Never will happen of course due to unions and Labour, but would save a fortune.

woodoo

ncdadam wrote: »

Source?

http://blogs.wsj.com/brussels/2011/02/14/busting-north-south-stereotypes/

Piste

All I hear is "weh weh bloated admin weh weh inefficient management".

Who exactly are these bloated admin and how exactly are they operating inefficiently?

nacimroc

Read through this thread and it really is sad. Just sad. I was let go from the public sector. I know first hand how absolutely out of touch they are from reality. They are worlds apart and getting further.

The private sector got wacked, pay rates demolished, hours increased massively, job security completely gone and to top it all huge taxes on everything, all to pay for and absolute bloated and ever increasing public sector pay.

Before you rave about taxes effect everyone....NO they don't! Whilst the public sector get their "Increments" the rest of the country are getting burned like dogs to pay for their "outdoor allowance" and "overtime" amongst other complete BS. I spoke to a council worker today who was crying about how he only got 1 pay rise this year and they were suppose to get another but didn't even though the ESB got it. Some other random BS allowance. Really...a payrise whilst the country verges on ruin!

This agreement will be the downfall of the government and maybe the country!

Utter f**king madness!

wow sierra

nacimroc wrote: »

Read through this thread and it really is sad. Just sad. I was let go from the public sector. I know first hand how absolutely out of touch they are from reality. They are worlds apart and getting further.

The private sector got wacked, pay rates demolished, hours increased massively, job security completely gone and to top it all huge taxes on everything, all to pay for and absolute bloated and ever increasing public sector pay.

Before you rave about taxes effect everyone....NO they don't! Whilst the public sector get their "Increments" the rest of the country are getting burned like dogs to pay for their "outdoor allowance" and "overtime" amongst other complete BS. I spoke to a council worker today who was crying about how he only got 1 pay rise this year and they were suppose to get another but didn't even though the ESB got it. Some other random BS allowance. Really...a payrise whilst the country verges on ruin!

This agreement will be the downfall of the government and maybe the country!

Utter f**king madness!

Whatever about any opinions given here that comment is a LIE - a plain and simple LIE.

Since 2009 Council workers have had PAY CUTS - PENSION LEVY IN 2009 FOLLOWED BY PAY CUT IN 2010. Huge reduction in numer of staff because of almost no recruitment since 2008 despite huge numbers retiring/leaving so more work for less pay.

Can't be bothered replying to any of the other ill informed rubbish - but seriously STOP TELLING LIES.

nacimroc

wow sierra wrote: »

Since 2009 Council workers have had PAY CUTS - PENSION LEVY IN 2009 FOLLOWED BY PAY CUT IN 2010.

Whatever about any opinions given here that comment is a LIE - a plain and simple LIE.

Pot meet kettle! A levy is not a paycut, its a levy!!!! Jesus your so far out of touch its unreal!! He got his increment the same as everyone else!! You might not class that as a payrise but I do and his pay increased!!

I was there in 2009 and got a pay increase and would have continued to get my INCREMENTS!!! FACT!!!

wow sierra

nacimroc wrote: »

Pot meet kettle! A LEVY IS NOT A PAYCUT!!!!!! Jesus your so far out of touch its unreal!!


I was there in 2009 and got a pay increase!!! FACT!!!

Explain what specific deal your particular grade got which was outside the scope of the agreement and meant that you then lost your job since then - or did you not have a permanent job guarateed under the "no job losses" part of the Croke park deal that is the subject of the thread. What job does your imaginary friend the council worker have now???

A Levy is a pay cut - it reduced take home pay by about 10% and it was specific to Public servants so the poor private sector didnt pay it. Of course it was a pay cut FFS.

nacimroc

wow sierra wrote: »

A Levy is a pay cut - it reduced take home pay by about 10% and it was specific to Public servants so the poor private sector didnt pay it. Of course it was a pay cut FFS.

So someone who started with the public sector in 2008, got a 10% paycut in 2009 followed by 9 yearly pay increments? Cry me a river!

PauloMN

wow sierra wrote: »

A Levy is a pay cut - it reduced take home pay by about 10% and it was specific to Public servants so the poor private sector didnt pay it. Of course it was a pay cut FFS.

The private sector largely do not have the luxury of paid pensions in the first place though. You can't put a levy on something that isn't there! Most private sector workers either have to setup a PRSA or do without depending on their circumstances. Fewer and fewer private sector jobs come with pension plans included, and in any case, they are funded by profitable companies - which if not profitable are wiped out.

ncdadam

woodoo wrote: »

http://blogs.wsj.com/brussels/2011/02/14/busting-north-south-stereotypes/

Point is though, the Germans are running the show and they pay for their own PS, we're borrowing billions to pay for the largess in the PS amongst other things.
The country is broke, in case you haven't noticed although most PS workers from a certain level up probably haven't.
The PS seem to see change in work practices and trying to get more efficiency as an attack on their pay and conditions.
Asked to work another hour or two per week and the beards are claiming that this would be a reduction in pay and breaking the CPA.
This crap won't be tolerated forever, the rest of society won't have it.

Qualitymark

Civil service pay is not going to be dealt with until the politicians' pay, and their rich allowances, are unhitched from the senior civil service rate.

If politicians' pay was instead linked to the country's GNP, we might see some positive changes. (Gross National Product is the goods sold by the country's own businesses, not taking into account multinationals sited here.)

Gumbo

nacimroc wrote: »

I spoke to a council worker today who was crying about how he only got 1 pay rise this year and they were suppose to get another but didn't even though the ESB got it. Some other random BS allowance.

100% pure lies.
Made up in the hope to attract a few thanks from other posters :rolleyes:

Council workers were not due any rise this year at all, heck even ESB were not due a rise this year, your simply churning lies to suit your position. Allowances have been scrapped except for 24 hour call and 7 day rotas.

nacimroc

kceire wrote: »

100% pure lies.
Made up in the hope to attract a few thanks from other posters :rolleyes:

Council workers were not due any rise this year at all, heck even ESB were not due a rise this year, your simply churning lies to suit your position. Allowances have been scrapped except for 24 hour call and 7 day rotas.

He does the calls out and as far as I remember that was the allowance he was getting on top of his "on call" allowance and "call out" pay. He said it was something like 0.5% but they only got half so far this year, whereas the ESB got the full increment.

This "agreement" only cuts services to the public in order to pay for the ridiculously high payroll you enjoy! Poor old average Joe getting shafted there again!

Edit: Just read this in todays Irish times "At present €1.5 billion is paid out annually in allowances to staff."

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0912/1224323911713.html

Gumbo

nacimroc wrote: »

He does the calls out and as far as I remember that was the allowance he was getting on top of his "on call" allowance and "call out" pay. He said it was something like 0.5% but they only got half so far this year, whereas the ESB got the full increment.

Call outs for what?
If your on call you get your base salary plus one standard 24 hour/7day allowance. The only extra on top of this is travel allowance or mileage.

he was not due an increase or never was, allowances have been cut. He doesnt get call out pay.

Either he is spoofing or your spoofing, you decide.

nacimroc wrote: »

This "agreement" only cuts services to the public in order to pay for the ridiculously high payroll you enjoy! Poor old average Joe getting shafted there again!

Yeah im average joe too :rolleyes:

nacimroc wrote: »

Edit: Just read this in todays Irish times "At present €1.5 billion is paid out annually in allowances to staff."

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0912/1224323911713.html

Allowances are there to cover travel for work, or costs incurred during the work. normal staff are not like the TD's etc, you cannot claim unvouched expences, they have to be receipted and signed by a manager.

So either tell the truth, or admit your wrong or at the bare minimum, do some research on what your ranting about

woodoo

ncdadam wrote: »

Point is though, the Germans are running the show and they pay for their own PS, we're borrowing billions to pay for the largess in the PS amongst other things.

No the point i responded to was about hours worked.

ncdadam wrote: »

The PS seem to see change in work practices and trying to get more efficiency as an attack on their pay and conditions.
Asked to work another hour or two per week and the beards are claiming that this would be a reduction in pay and breaking the CPA.
This crap won't be tolerated forever, the rest of society won't have it.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/garda-roster-changed-for-first-time-in-40-years-566542.html

ncdadam

kceire wrote: »

The only extra on top of this is travel allowance or mileage.

Do all PS workers get a travel or milage allowance?

ncdadam

woodoo wrote: »

No the point i responded to was about hours worked.



http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/garda-roster-changed-for-first-time-in-40-years-566542.html

Ah fair enough, ignore the elephant in the room then.

Paulzx

ncdadam wrote: »

Do all PS workers get a travel or milage allowance?

Of course they don't. The fact someone has to even ask this question shows how the Sunday Indo brainwashing has worked.

ncdadam

Paulzx wrote: »

Of course they don't. The fact someone has to even ask this question shows how the Sunday Indo brainwashing has worked.

I didn't say or think that they did.
I was just questioning this post....

Call outs for what?
If your on call you get your base salary plus one standard 24 hour/7day allowance. The only extra on top of this is travel allowance or mileage.

That's all.

woodoo

ncdadam wrote: »

Ah fair enough, ignore the elephant in the room then.

You can't just change the subject when we were discussing something else.


You asked the question also about about mileage and allowances, if you are asked to go and work somewhere that is not your base then you will get mileage and lunch allowance.

ncdadam

woodoo wrote: »

You asked the question also about about mileage and allowances, if you are asked to go and work somewhere that is not your base then you will get mileage and lunch allowance.

Jesus, that's great altogether, another little perk the rest of us pay for.

hucklebuck

We need the following to happen:

1) CAB to move in and freeze the assets of Ahern, The Quinns, Fingleton, Drumm, Neary and all the builders in NAMA this way they can not benefit from the money they have stashed and they could face time

2) Cut the dole 80% for anyone claiming it for more than five years

3) Social Welfare to hire 500 retired detectives (they retire at 57) and get them to investigate everyone on dole, single mothers and disability, anyone swindling should be fine through future payments/ wages

4) Make civil servants accountable, the regulator sat in Quinn Insurance for 2 years and watched it go down the can and now we are all paying more on our insurance

5) Get rid of all the stealth taxes and adopt a Scandanavian system of 70% tax which would include free health care, creches and no VAT on petrol/ diesel

talla10

woodoo wrote: »

No the point i responded to was about hours worked.



http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/garda-roster-changed-for-first-time-in-40-years-566542.html

To answer your question Gardai used to work 56 hours over 7 days before overtime. Now they work 60 hours over 6 days before overtime.

kippy

Piste wrote: »

All I hear is "weh weh bloated admin weh weh inefficient management".

Who exactly are these bloated admin and how exactly are they operating inefficiently?

I don't have any solid figures or links, just experiences.

There is no real level of performance management in the PS. There is generally no level of performance based pay. It is almost impossible to sack inefficient of troublesome staff.

Some sub sectors of some departments can have up to 25% management grades (Including and above Assistant Principle level) and another 25% HEO level, some have responsibility for managing staff.

This is more pronounced in some areas rather than others.

The inefficiencies come into it in a few different areas. Decision and policy making is an exceptionally slow process (not always as a result of the levels of management but often this is a factor)
There is also no level of accountability anywhere in the management areas.
Also, and this is key, there is a distinct lack of ROI, Value for Money, and project planning in a lot of management decisions. Indeed, the managers aren't rewarded for good/bad performance.

I am sure you can put all these things together to see why there are major inefficiencies and where some of this management are based.
It is, in general, the management grades that are putting the averages up in wages.

I'll add, it is exceptionally difficult to find any figures to back up any of what I have said above but I am sure a few people would agree with it.