Fees

Wompa1

Scortho wrote: »

How about a graduate tax though as I mentioned earlier on.

It self funds third level education for all and doesn't matter who mammy or daddy is.

I mightn't be able to pay for my education up front. Very few people would be.

However if an extra tax was slapped on my wages to fund the next generation of university students I'd have no problem with that.

After all my wages will be a hell of a lot higher with a degree than without so its only fair that I pay a little back

But considering so many graduate either move abroad out of neccessity or because they want to for the life experience. How will they ever pay it back? They may never return to Ireland

Scortho

Wompa1 wrote: »

But considering so many graduate either move abroad out of neccessity or because they want to for the life experience. How will they ever pay it back? They may never return to Ireland

This is through and in my original post I acknowledged that this may happen. Page 2 post 20. (if someone can show me how I can link a single post I'd be very grateful)

At the moment we're educating them at a significant cost to the exchequer and they're leaving anyway.

Most students and graduates want to travel for the first few years after graduating. But eventually they'll want to settle down. With close family and friends living in Ireland, its likely that many of them will come back. Some won't but many will.

Also at the moment are job situation isn't the best. I completely understand this. In 10 years time, the likelihood of things still being bad, especially for college graduates will be slim.

The graduate tax would only be applied when a graduate starts to earn over a certain amount. For most graduates this wouldn't happen in the first few years out of college anyway.

A graduate tax is not a quick fix solution that solves all funding problems immediately. Its a longer term method of sustainably funding third level education. It is easy to predict what the tax take will be and it does not discriminate.

Wompa1

Scortho wrote: »

This is through and in my original post I acknowledged that this may happen. Page 2 post 20. (if someone can show me how I can link a single post I'd be very grateful)

At the moment we're educating them at a significant cost to the exchequer and they're leaving anyway.

Most students and graduates want to travel for the first few years after graduating. But eventually they'll want to settle down. With close family and friends living in Ireland, its likely that many of them will come back. Some won't but many will.

Also at the moment are job situation isn't the best. I completely understand this. In 10 years time, the likelihood of things still being bad, especially for college graduates will be slim.

The graduate tax would only be applied when a graduate starts to earn over a certain amount. For most graduates this wouldn't happen in the first few years out of college anyway.

A graduate tax is not a quick fix solution that solves all funding problems immediately. Its a longer term method of sustainably funding third level education. It is easy to predict what the tax take will be and it does not discriminate.

Well at least you've got an idea for change. Probably needs to be shaped a bit to suit. I wouldn't go for something where people could be educated and go pay taxes somewhere else, then somebody who chooses to stay ends up paying more in taxes for their education to cover the cost of the people who go. Because I think that's the way it would go eventually. It would creep up more and more to account for the money being lost on the one's leaving, which would be unfair

LoonyLovegood

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_N7MAr98CI

I think John Green makes a very good point here. A degree opens up your prospects entirely. I've started a degree out here in Galway, and I chose it because of the programme, and the people who have graduated from here in the law programmes. I can't afford it by myself. My dad served in the army for 21 years, and then, at an ill timed moment (late 2007), decided to set up his own business. My mother left work after having her third child to raise a family, and is now looking for work. I had a college fund set up for me at birth. That money has gone towards my accommodation for the year. I'm praying I get a grant, or I'll be going home after being able to study my dream for a few weeks.

It's true, there's a lot of people who drop out quickly. I'd prefer a system such as the UK, where you need to show WHY you want a degree before you are accepted. As for fees - there's no easy answer. I think the UK scheme is a good idea, in that it's a way for people to get the fees paid relatively quickly. As for me? I've got a €2000 credit union loan which is what I will live on for the academic year. I'm currently sitting in my room in the accommodation, eating noodles with a blanket around me because I can't afford to go home.

Some of us are willing to sacrifice a lot. But when it's your dream and you have the aptitude, your family circumstances shouldn't matter.

Wompa1

CTYIgirl wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_N7MAr98CI

I think John Green makes a very good point here. A degree opens up your prospects entirely. I've started a degree out here in Galway, and I chose it because of the programme, and the people who have graduated from here in the law programmes. I can't afford it by myself. My dad served in the army for 21 years, and then, at an ill timed moment (late 2007), decided to set up his own business. My mother left work after having her third child to raise a family, and is now looking for work. I had a college fund set up for me at birth. That money has gone towards my accommodation for the year. I'm praying I get a grant, or I'll be going home after being able to study my dream for a few weeks.

It's true, there's a lot of people who drop out quickly. I'd prefer a system such as the UK, where you need to show WHY you want a degree before you are accepted. As for fees - there's no easy answer. I think the UK scheme is a good idea, in that it's a way for people to get the fees paid relatively quickly. As for me? I've got a €2000 credit union loan which is what I will live on for the academic year. I'm currently sitting in my room in the accommodation, eating noodles with a blanket around me because I can't afford to go home.

Some of us are willing to sacrifice a lot. But when it's your dream and you have the aptitude, your family circumstances shouldn't matter.

Been there and done that. A lot of days I stayed in bed until dinner time to try and save my energy so I wouldn't need food. Then for dinner I'd eat cut up hot dogs and beans for days at a time. Some weeks I lived off 9-12 euro. And I was working 24+ hours a week while going to college. Not everybody get's taken care of but them's the breaks I'm afraid.

I was pretty bitter at the time for those couple of years I had to live like that. P!ssed at my housemates who were getting the grant and were getting drunk and high all the time and then leaving the heat on or some sh!t which would mean by share of the electric bill would end up high meaning scrimping by on even less. On the plus side, if I didn't live like that I don't think I'd have all the success that I have now. It will stand to you and improve your character. The people who get everything handed to them will struggle to shine in the working world

sock puppet

In practical terms the UK system is actually very similar to a graduate tax for most workers. Repayments are 9% of gross income above £15,000. After around 30 years the loan is cancelled anyway, so those who never earn enough to repay the loan in full don't have to worry about it.

It's completely different to graduating with £30,000 of bank debt, as graduates are under absolutely no pressure to repay their loans.

MadYaker

The bank giro form for paying my fees arrived in the post a week ago. €2474.00 for me and I think its the same for my sister who is starting first year this year. Thats €4948 for the both of us per year. Were both doing four year degrees (I'm in my third year) So thats €19,792 for the both of us to go through college. The parents don't seem to bothered and they knew these increases were coming so its not too big of a deal for us but its still a lot of money. I work weekends and don't live at home so I pay my own way which makes a difference I suppose. A loan system would be good if it wasn't so hard for graduates to get jobs these days. I can't see a bank giving you a loan if they don't think you'll be able to pay it back after you graduate...

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Confab wrote: »

Students should have to pay to go to college like in every other civilised country. Develop a loan system. Free education was a boom thing.

That's a silly idea really. Investing in education is very important for this countries future. Education should not be a privilege.

starbelgrade wrote: »

The link you provided actually disproves your own argument, because according to the website, Ireland only charges tuition fees to some students who don't meet the specific requirements.

According to a recent OECD report, Ireland ranks among the top countries in the world for having low or negligible levels of tuition fees.

And in return for paying virtually no fees, our students benefit from some of the longest teaching / classroom hours of the OECD countries.

You can read about it here: http://www.oecd.org/education/highereducationandadultlearning/48631550.pdf

I'm not sure where you got the information that Ireland has the 2nd highest tuition fees in Europe, but as far as I can see, it doesn't. Perhaps you meant registration fees? And if you did, maybe you could provide a link?

I think there is a mixup between tuition and registration fees. When I went to college, there were no tuition fees, college was "free", I still needed to pay 800 euro in my final year, first year of college was 250 I think. Extremely cheap.

MadYaker

MadYaker wrote: »

The bank giro form for paying my fees arrived in the post a week ago. €2474.00 for me and I think its the same for my sister who is starting first year this year. Thats €4948 for the both of us per year. Were both doing four year degrees (I'm in my third year) So thats €19,792 for the both of us to go through college. The parents don't seem to bothered and they knew these increases were coming so its not too big of a deal for us but its still a lot of money. I work weekends and don't live at home so I pay my own way which makes a difference I suppose. A loan system would be good if it wasn't so hard for graduates to get jobs these days. I can't see a bank giving you a loan if they don't think you'll be able to pay it back after you graduate...

Just to add to this, we don't have it that bad. I have a few friends in college in the USA who are paying more per year for one person than my parents will pay in total to put me and my sis through 4 years of college.

steddyeddy

CTYIgirl wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_N7MAr98CI

I think John Green makes a very good point here. A degree opens up your prospects entirely. I've started a degree out here in Galway, and I chose it because of the programme, and the people who have graduated from here in the law programmes. I can't afford it by myself. My dad served in the army for 21 years, and then, at an ill timed moment (late 2007), decided to set up his own business. My mother left work after having her third child to raise a family, and is now looking for work. I had a college fund set up for me at birth. That money has gone towards my accommodation for the year. I'm praying I get a grant, or I'll be going home after being able to study my dream for a few weeks.

It's true, there's a lot of people who drop out quickly. I'd prefer a system such as the UK, where you need to show WHY you want a degree before you are accepted. As for fees - there's no easy answer. I think the UK scheme is a good idea, in that it's a way for people to get the fees paid relatively quickly. As for me? I've got a €2000 credit union loan which is what I will live on for the academic year. I'm currently sitting in my room in the accommodation, eating noodles with a blanket around me because I can't afford to go home.

Some of us are willing to sacrifice a lot. But when it's your dream and you have the aptitude, your family circumstances shouldn't matter.

Bingo! "I got an A in every subject in the leaving cert so I am going to make a great doctor doesnt cut it anymore". We had a mature student apply last year (He was in his twenties) and when asked why did he want to do biochemistry he said " I want to be able to analyse the enzymes involved with the photosensitive cells in the eye.

While that was going on we had at least >40 students in first year science straight out ofprivate school saying they didnt know what they want to do :S. The taxpayers should be funding people like the student who knew what he wanted to do at the expense of those not suited for the course.

Milk & Honey

steddyeddy wrote: »

at least >40

What does this mean?

steddyeddy

Milk & Honey wrote: »

What does this mean?

In the field of science > means greater than.

Milk & Honey

steddyeddy wrote: »

In the field of science > means greater than.

In English so does "at least". What is the meaning of "at least greater than"?

steddyeddy

Milk & Honey wrote: »

In English so does "at least". What is the meaning of "at least greater than"?

Im used to writing lab reports so I find using things like > or < comes naturally.

Milk & Honey

steddyeddy wrote: »

Im used to writing lab reports so I find using things like > or < comes naturally.

I asked you what it meant, not why you used a symbol. Why not write at least 41 or > 41? So much for education.

steddyeddy

Milk & Honey wrote: »

I asked you what it meant, not why you used a symbol. Why not write at least 41 or > 41? So much for education.

Because "at least more than 40" is a terrible sentence in english. As for your last line given the amount of times you focused on one sentence of my point I would agree.

Milk & Honey

steddyeddy wrote: »

Because "at least more than 40" is a terrible sentence in english. As for your last line given the amount of times you focused on one sentence of my point I would agree.

You are now saying you wrote "at least >40" to avoid writing "at least more than 40".
"At least 40" is perfectly correct and understandable English, which seems to be what you meant. "More than 40" is also perfectly correct and understandable.
In my day only 20% of school leavers went on to Third Level after the leaving Cert. I wasn't one of the 20%.

Piste

I think we need to bring in some sort of fees system, but in an equitable way so that not all fees need to be paid upfront. So a graduate tax or student loan system like in England could work. We could also generate upfront revenue by alloying people to pay their fees at a reduced rate as they begin each year of college,to this would generate revenue quickly. We need to bring in a fees system if we want excellent, world-standard universities and to attract top employers. Also if universities have more money they can offer scholarships to attract the best students.

steddyeddy

Milk & Honey wrote: »

You are now saying you wrote "at least >40" to avoid writing "at least more than 40".
"At least 40" is perfectly correct and understandable English, which seems to be what you meant. "More than 40" is also perfectly correct and understandable.

To be honest man Im quite tired and I havent got the energy to dwell on one sentence for half the night. If you understand what you thought I meant then there isnt a massive problem here. If you dont then fair enough.

In my day only 20% of school leavers went on to Third Level after the leaving Cert. I wasn't one of the 20%.

Well you can still go back mature students do quite well. The small number who went to college didnt go because they were smarter just because of finances.

steddyeddy

Piste wrote: »

I think we need to bring in some sort of fees system, but in an equitable way so that not all fees need to be paid upfront. So a graduate tax or student loan system like in England could work. We could also generate upfront revenue by alloying people to pay their fees at a reduced rate as they begin each year of college,to this would generate revenue quickly. We need to bring in a fees system if we want excellent, world-standard universities and to attract top employers. Also if universities have more money they can offer scholarships to attract the best students.

We can still attract the best students if we are very selective about how we pick them. Focusing on leaving cert results isnt working.

Muir

melekalikimaka wrote: »

i'll be glad to see fees back, cull the herd, alot of wasters in there these days milking the system

I hate this attitude. Increasing fees & getting rid of people could be getting rid of the people who actually want an education. Could be wasters who are well off, go to college because mammy & daddy want them to & can afford to send them but don't actually give a **** about being there. Then there could be someone who works their ass off & deserves it more but can't afford it.

steddyeddy

Muir wrote: »

I hate this attitude. Increasing fees & getting rid of people could be getting rid of the people who actually want an education. Could be wasters who are well off, go to college because mammy & daddy want them to & can afford to send them but don't actually give a **** about being there. Then there could be someone who works their ass off & deserves it more but can't afford it.

Plus 1. It is the rich sending their wasters to college at the moment. In the sciences this is one hundred per cent true.

Milk & Honey

steddyeddy wrote: »

To be honest man Im quite tired and I havent got the energy to dwell on one sentence for half the night. If you understand what you thought I meant then there isnt a massive problem here. If you dont then fair enough.

If you expressed what you meant clearly I would understand it, but since you didn't I am left to guess.

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well you can still go back mature students do quite well. The small number who went to college didnt go because they were smarter just because of finances.

How can I go back to something I was never in? What about my job?
In my day, some were smart and could afford it, some were not so smart but could still afford it, some were smart and could not afford it and some were not so smart and could not afford it anyway.

steddyeddy

Milk & Honey wrote: »

If you expressed what you meant clearly I would understand it, but since you didn't I am left to guess.



How can I go back to something I was never in? What about my job?
In my day, some were smart and could afford it, some were not so smart but could still afford it, some were smart and could not afford it and some were not so smart and could not afford it anyway.

I try and give friendly advice and more of this grammar bs. Ill leave you too it.

Jennifer Parker

Confab wrote: »

Students should have to pay to go to college like in every other civilised country. Develop a loan system. Free education was a boom thing.

German fees in universities and ITs are between 0€ and 500€ per semester (depending on the Bundesland they are in) + (cost for the student travel cards, student union and some other administrative fees 250€ max.) Most graduates are almost free of any debt and can spend significant parts of their (after grad) income on whatever they want. Same goes for some scandinavian countries.

High tuition fees discourage a lot of students to go to college (especially those from low income families). Wouldn't want to see a generation of grad spending 10 years on paying back their 50.000+€ college loan and not being able to spent it on holidays, restaurants, child care, etc.

Milk & Honey

steddyeddy wrote: »

I try and give friendly advice and more of this grammar bs. Ill leave you too it.

You were being condescending, which is a bit rich in the circumstances.

steddyeddy

Milk & Honey wrote: »

You were being condescending, which is a bit rich in the circumstances.

You are definatly taking me up the wrong way. How was I being condescending to you?

Scortho

Wompa1 wrote: »

I wouldn't go for something where people could be educated and go pay taxes somewhere else, then somebody who chooses to stay ends up paying more in taxes for their education to cover the cost of the people who go. Because I think that's the way it would go eventually. It would creep up more and more to account for the money being lost on the one's leaving, which would be unfair

That is the situation we're in at the moment though. They're leaving anyway.

If you choose to stay in Ireland/are able to find employment in Ireland after you're degree, you are going to start paying the tax sooner.

It wouldn't be a tax for life as that unfairly discriminates against the person who stayed in Ireland and didn't get that 5 year life experiance backpacking around the world.

Most likely a levy of 4 or 5% of income once earning X for 25 years.

mackg

Piste wrote: »

I think we need to bring in some sort of fees system, but in an equitable way so that not all fees need to be paid upfront. So a graduate tax or student loan system like in England could work. We could also generate upfront revenue by alloying people to pay their fees at a reduced rate as they begin each year of college,to this would generate revenue quickly. We need to bring in a fees system if we want excellent, world-standard universities and to attract top employers. Also if universities have more money they can offer scholarships to attract the best students.

I had to pay for a few years of college because despite my income being in the range they said I wouldn't get it until 4th year. In my college if you had to pay fees like I did you could go to year head and get a form whereby the fees were split into 5 payments that were to be paid by dates that were agreed between the two of you.

for people who simply don't have the money I agree a student loans/ graduate tax would be a good system to implement. I love the idea of free education and would like to see it reintroduced down the line in better times but atm everyone is going to suffer and students will have to be no different.

Muir wrote: »

I hate this attitude. Increasing fees & getting rid of people could be getting rid of the people who actually want an education. Could be wasters who are well off, go to college because mammy & daddy want them to & can afford to send them but don't actually give a **** about being there. Then there could be someone who works their ass off & deserves it more but can't afford it.

Yeah the idea that the wasters are the ones who will be hit exclusively by increased fees is a stupid one to say the least.

Milk & Honey

steddyeddy wrote: »

You are definatly taking me up the wrong way. How was I being condescending to you?

You think I don'r know what a mature student is? You make a glib remark about "going back". A person may be able to study in a University late in life but the reality is that there is no substitute for going to college early in life.

steddyeddy

Milk & Honey wrote: »

You think I don'r know what a mature student is? You make a glib remark about "going back". A person may be able to study in a University late in life but the reality is that there is no substitute for going to college early in life.

Right Im sorry If you took it that way I definatly didnt mean it that way. I didnt say you dont know what a mature student is either. It is my honest view that going back later a person is a lot more focused. Going back to college wasnt in any way meant to be a glib remark. Im really not that smart to pull of word play like that. Its a phrase I use for people returning to the possiblity of college later in life. My college life had been delayed in life due to life events. I regret that it happened myself so I would certainly never make an intentionally glib remark like that about someone else. Its a sore point for me.

thecornflake

Third level education should be free but not for everyone.

Simply put, the country needs a certain skill set. The courses that teach these skills should be payed for after the correct people are chosen via interview, exam ect process.

If somebody wants to do a course that doesn't benefit the country as much as the fees would cost, then the student should pay for the course they want to do.

The country can't keep allowing people to do courses that have no value to the country and which costs the country a lot every year, money which could be better spent in other areas. It would make as much sense to send me to the cinema everyday as it would to send people on courses that aren't needed.

cassid

I went to university back in fee paying days in the 90's. I could not afford to go straight after my leaving cert, so took a year out and worked really hard to save up for fees/daily expenses etc for when I went to uni. I had to pay my upkeep at home as well as pay for university costs, as my family were not well off and needed me to contribute, which was hard. I worked long hours outside college, used to work Thurs to Sun-10/12 hour shifts, working 40 odd hours and studying full time was not easy.I was often late with my fees which meant I had no access to the library for studying, I used to have to use the IIac centre library to try get my assignments in. I used to hear follow students talk about skiing at Christmas and driving to college and would be so envious, there were times when I had to walk 2 1/2 hours to attend lecturers as I ran out of money for the bus. I was by no means alone in this student life.

I would have loved the option of a loan to pay back when I graduated it would have made my college life more enjoyable. I got the degree and grade I wanted( heaven knows how) and have always taken pride in achieving that. I think if you are really focused you will do what you have to.
I would not like to see the return of fees for students unless there is a loan scheme set up to support students. I would hate other people to have to work so much to pay for fees that they don't have time to enjoy the social aspect of college as they are working or studying, social growth and development is an intergral part of the whole college experience.

Part of my job at the moment brings into contact with Colleges/Universities. I think several institutes need to be audited and the findings published. The public will then see some of the horrifc waste of money in some 3rd level colleges. The amount of money on expenses, travelling trips all over the world for a 1/2 day confernce, consultancy reports, OT rates paid to specific grades, salaries for staff especially at managerial level over €90,000. While this is happening, capitation fees are increasing all the time and support services like disability /counselling are getting cut. I think if 3rd level's are more accountable for the public funding they get, there may not need to be re-introduction of fees. It will take a brave person in public office to take on the 3rd level colleges.

Scortho

cassid wrote: »

Part of my job at the moment brings into contact with Colleges/Universities. I think several institutes need to be audited and the findings published. The public will then see some of the horrifc waste of money in some 3rd level colleges. The amount of money on expenses, travelling trips all over the world for a 1/2 day confernce, consultancy reports, OT rates paid to specific grades, salaries for staff especially at managerial level over €90,000. While this is happening, capitation fees are increasing all the time and support services like disability /counselling are getting cut. I think if 3rd level's are more accountable for the public funding they get, there may not need to be re-introduction of fees. It will take a brave person in public office to take on the 3rd level colleges.

This especially. the wastage in some area is unreal. Last year my college opened up a fairly large building on Pearse St.

As they had gotten new funding for computers etc, all of the old ones were put in a skip. A few students in my year saw some of the stuff and were told that they could help themselves.
While some of the stuff was broken and of little/no use there was some fairly impressive equipment including iMacs and PCR machines.
One lad even managed to sell some of the stuff back to staff from the very department the items were originally in.

What I couldn't understand was why was the college just dumping perfectly fine computers and accessories when there were staff willing to buy it?

steddyeddy

Scortho wrote: »

This especially. the wastage in some area is unreal. Last year my college opened up a fairly large building on Pearse St.

As they had gotten new funding for computers etc, all of the old ones were put in a skip. A few students in my year saw some of the stuff and were told that they could help themselves.
While some of the stuff was broken and of little/no use there was some fairly impressive equipment including iMacs and PCR machines.
One lad even managed to sell some of the stuff back to staff from the very department the items were originally in.

What I couldn't understand was why was the college just dumping perfectly fine computers and accessories when there were staff willing to buy it?

The skip is also a major part of ucd's landscape. I dont know why they dont even offer to donate some of the office equitment ect.

Scortho

steddyeddy wrote: »

The skip is also a major part of ucd's landscape. I dont know why they dont even offer to donate some of the office equitment ect.

Or sell it!

Arent yee missing a bar?:D

NoQuarter

Last year alone cost me €13,000 for my fees. Put that in yer pipe and shmoke it! :mad:

Helix

Sir Pompous Righteousness wrote: »

Anyway, I think parents should start saving up for these things years in advance if they wish to send their child to college.

€13 a week for 17 years would cover 4 years in college at €3000 a year

that's about the cost of a box of smokes in ireland isnt it?

steddyeddy

Scortho wrote: »

Or sell it!

Arent yee missing a bar?:D

We have a new one being built but its being held up because the contractor involved is bankrupt or something

Scortho

steddyeddy wrote: »

We have a new one being built but its being held up because the contractor involved is bankrupt or something

ahh sure set up a little Sheebeen in the meantime. Donations only:D

languagenerd

A lot of people are talking about cutting out wasters - bringing in full fees won't do that, it'll just mean that the wasters are richer ones than before.

They could bring in a system of paying less to students who don't attend enough classes (excluding illness-related absences, obviously), who are disruptive or who don't bother handing in the work. Like, if you don't go to half your classes one year, next year the government will only give you half the reg fee or half a grant (if you get one). Obviously, there'd be external circumstances to consider, but that would cut out the lazy feckers anyway.

It's awful to see people who put in a huge effort on their academic work but struggle to pay for college while there are others who don't make any effort and spend all their parents'/grant money on going drinking intead. (BTW - I am not saying that every hard-working student can't afford college, nor am I saying that every rich student or grant-recipient is a waster! There are equally hard-working rich kids and grant recipients, and I'm sure there are wasters whose parents are struggling to keep in college too. Just an example of some groups that do exist - the grants don't always go to those who need them)

Wompa1

languagenerd wrote: »

A lot of people are talking about cutting out wasters - bringing in full fees won't do that, it'll just mean that the wasters are richer ones than before.

They could bring in a system of paying less to students who don't attend enough classes (excluding illness-related absences, obviously), who are disruptive or who don't bother handing in the work. Like, if you don't go to half your classes one year, next year the government will only give you half the reg fee or half a grant (if you get one). Obviously, there'd be external circumstances to consider, but that would cut out the lazy feckers anyway.

It's awful to see people who put in a huge effort on their academic work but struggle to pay for college while there are others who don't make any effort and spend all their parents'/grant money on going drinking intead. (BTW - I am not saying that every hard-working student can't afford college, nor am I saying that every rich student or grant-recipient is a waster! There are equally hard-working rich kids and grant recipients, and I'm sure there are wasters whose parents are struggling to keep in college too. Just an example of some groups that do exist - the grants don't always go to those who need them)

The current grant system is meant to be distributed based on attendance but the Universities say they cannot successfully track attendance due to large classes...which of course is BS, they just don't want to but there ya go..

Nulty

thecornflake wrote: »

Third level education should be free but not for everyone.

Simply put, the country needs a certain skill set. The courses that teach these skills should be payed for after the correct people are chosen via interview, exam ect process.

If somebody wants to do a course that doesn't benefit the country as much as the fees would cost, then the student should pay for the course they want to do.

The country can't keep allowing people to do courses that have no value to the country and which costs the country a lot every year, money which could be better spent in other areas. It would make as much sense to send me to the cinema everyday as it would to send people on courses that aren't needed.

This is probably not a new idea but I've never considered it in this way. It makes sense on the face of it. Pay for fees of students enrolling in unpopular but essential industries and make the other stuff available but don't subsidise them.

There's lots of difficult decisions to be made there.

Wompa1

Nulty wrote: »

This is probably not a new idea but I've never considered it in this way. It makes sense on the face of it. Pay for fees of students enrolling in unpopular but essential industries and make the other stuff available but don't subsidise them.

There's lots of difficult decisions to be made there.

A friend and I had this discussion back before the recession. It made sense then but now that there's a down turn...I don't know. I work in IT, I'd feel it would result in people without the technical aptitude or desire to end up working in IT. In Ireland I was working with people who couldn't grasp the basics and had been working for 8-12 years in IT because their guidance counsellors told them back during the IT Boom there was good money in it. It leads to inefficiency and makes Irish IT workers look bad which isn't good when we now have to compete with the likes of Hungary, Poland, Czech Republic etc.

Maybe if the way the Universities in Ireland are run is changed it would work. But right now the courses and lecturers are terrible, thus these incapable people end up getting through the cracks. If somebody can study for 2 weeks and pass the exams without gaining any real expertise in the area throughout the entire 4 years..there's something wrong

thecornflake

Wompa1 wrote: »

If somebody can study for 2 weeks and pass the exams without gaining any real expertise in the area throughout the entire 4 years..there's something wrong

I couldn't agree more, I think that the value of degree are being seriously impacted. If you look at the situation now, a lot of people are doing masters courses, I few years ago your leaving cert was the basic qualification, now a degree is the norm, soon a masters will be the minimum. After that its the PhD, where do we stop this madness, on paper there are a lot of smart people with qualifications but are they actually qualified ?

Wompa1

thecornflake wrote: »

I couldn't agree more, I think that the value of degree are being seriously impacted. If you look at the situation now, a lot of people are doing masters courses, I few years ago your leaving cert was the basic qualification, now a degree is the norm, soon a masters will be the minimum. After that its the PhD, where do we stop this madness, on paper there are a lot of smart people with qualifications but are they actually qualified ?

I actually already don't rate an Irish PhD. I have more respect for a Master than some PhD's in the country.

A senior lecturer in NUIG wrote to the editorial section of a local paper years ago warning that the Universities were watering down the qualifications because they were so accessible to people to do. People can choose to do a PhD as a way of life rather than for outright passion to learn. I went out with a PhD student for 2 years who would moan about certain people in there who didn't have the grades etc. to get into do a PhD but knew somebody who knew somebody to get in etc. And this girl was a complete waster herself, was on public funding and wouldn't do a tap for months.

Unfortunately the current third level system is easily corruptable and management is a farce. If you want to make a complaint! Forget about it. The Uni's themeselves will fob you off because they can, so then you think well the Department for Education would be the next people to go to...afraid not. The Uni's that get sheds loads of tax payer money are only accountable to themselves apparently.

The kind of change the country needs won't happen with my generation or the older generation. Probably not even the next generation. But hopefully the generation after that will see the error of our ways and avoid the insular mediocre systems we have now

thecornflake

Wompa1 wrote: »

But hopefully the generation after that will see the error of our ways and avoid the insular mediocre systems we have now

Yeah, the island of scholars :rolleyes:.

One of the main problems is that going to college is the thing to do, it's nearly abnormal to not go. My gf didn't do a degree but wants to do one and I keep telling her that 3/4 years in the job she is in at the moment would stand to her way more than a degree in terms of qualifications. I would say that if she wanted to learn because she is interested in the subject, that would be another story but then the fees ect come into play.

Wompa1

thecornflake wrote: »

Yeah, the island of scholars :rolleyes:.

One of the main problems is that going to college is the thing to do, it's nearly abnormal to not go. My gf didn't do a degree but wants to do one and I keep telling her that 3/4 years in the job she is in at the moment would stand to her way more than a degree in terms of qualifications. I would say that if she wanted to learn because she is interested in the subject, that would be another story but then the fees ect come into play.

I'm in America at the moment. I work in a 'skilled' job. I found out one of the guys went to University. Everybody else in my team did not, they did some certification courses off their own back e.g. found stuff online and just paid to sit the exams. They are some of the sharpest minds I've ever worked with.

BUT in Ireland like you say, it's the done thing to go to college. I feel someone like your g/f, if she's in a place in which there's 'skilled' work\employees she may be overlooked for higher up positions due to not having a degree. You can usually bet your ass the managers and bosses have a degree, it doesn't mean they are smarter or better equipped to be in those positions because let's face it, a lot of Irish degrees are complete garbage.

I left my first 'skilled' job in March. In my leaving e-mail I thanked my colleagues and stated I learned more in my first year in that job than I did in 4 years of college and I meant it. For every year a lecturer is lecturing their skills and expertise are regressing. Their research for the colleges is not the same standard as if they were working a job with deadlines and quality expected

goose1

bluewolf is an awful selfish, self righteous bitch isnt she!!....sure i have my degree thats all that matters

or is it, im a worthless shoe cleaner....why should anyone else get a chance

COP ON

thecornflake

goose1 wrote: »

bluewolf is an awful selfish, self righteous bitch isnt she!!....sure i have my degree thats all that matters

or is it, im a worthless shoe cleaner....why should anyone else get a chance

COP ON

I had a teacher in secondary school whom at the start of every year would talk to the students and say he wanted two things out of us. The first was to try our best at school, because that is all you can do, if you fail, you fail but at least you did your best. The second thing is the most important, he said if we only learned one thing in the six years that it would be manors. An asshole with a good leaving cert will not be liked and will probably not do well with people, but someone who is courteous and has respect will usually do ok.

Would you like me to send you on to him ?