Possible criminal charge while renting

unsure387

Was hoping to get advice for the following situation:

I needed internet installed in a flat I am renting. Was told that there needed to be drilling, to which the landlord said the building was protected by a historical society so could not. I called the historical society, who cleared it, so I assumed this would be fine.

Tech guys came over and started drilling to which landlord said to stop cause he needed to call it in. Had the guys stop, but then after trying to contact landlord (knocked on door a few times, called, etc) the landlord stopped answering, so I called the other landlord of the place. At this point the drill was most of the way through and there would have been a hole in the wall. The other landlord said go ahead, text the other landlord. I assumed this meant to finish and seal up the hole. I did text the other landlord, and at this point the guys had finished (standard internet cable, you don't notice it unless you look for it).

Landlord is furious and is saying I didn't have permission (I thought I did), and is considering pressing criminal property damage charges.

I have offered to pay for all damages and let him inspect. I am also willing to move if this is such a big issue. I've always paid my rent on time, have a security deposit/etc. Could I go to jail for this? I really thought it would have been okay, but the landlord is leaving it up to the property manager to press charges despite apologies, and offer to pay for any damage. They are also saying things that I know aren't true - like the other landlord said to call and did not give his permission. They are also saying I did it out of ill will instead of a misunderstanding. I do feel really terrible that he is so upset, but not sure what else I can do at this point to appease him.

Any advice?

Edit: I should add he is saying it a violation of my lease which says no exterior/structural modifications.

Gary The Gamer

Ignore him. This is not a case of criminal damage. He could sue for damage but is very unlikely to get anything.

A civilian cannot press criminal charges. That's up to the police or dpp.

unsure387

Thanks. I have no problem paying for any repairs/damages caused by having an internet cable. Just not sure how to make it better with the landlord at this point. Offered several times to pay for damages but that didn't seem to make any difference. He replied with the going to let the property owner know and it's up to them whether to press criminal charges or not.

zef

OP it sounds like your landlord is bullying you.
And you sound freaked out - don't worry, you can't go to jail for something like that.Anyway, It wasn't criminal, it was a misunderstanding.
Could you write a letter to the property owner explaining the circumstances surrounding your internet installation? It might help straighten things out.

unsure387

Haha ya, I am/was a little freaked out. I'm a student and any sort of criminal charge on my record means no more future profession.

I did try writing emails explaining the situation, but he seemed to get more upset and each email he sent was worse than the last, with the last one suggesting criminal charges. The property manager didn't give any sort of contact information, but the landlord did CC the last email he sent to me (and therefore all of the email histories) to the property manager - I may try the other landlord at some point, or just wait for this to blow over. I'm either going to get evicted or not.

Thinking about writing an apology note first thing tomorrow morning.

Thanks for the reassurance.

L1011

Who are the "two landlords" in this case?

If they're co-owners, tell the moaning / inaccurately threatening one to talk to the one who OKed it and leave you out of it - the issue is between them.

Marcusm

Gary The Gamer wrote: »

Ignore him. This is not a case of criminal damage. He could sue for damage but is very unlikely to get anything.

A civilian cannot press criminal charges. That's up to the police or dpp.

I take it you are not acquainted with the Petty Sessions (Ireland) Act 1851; not sure whether it woud result in a criminal damage charge specifically as that might be reserved to DPP in the relevant statute but private prosecutions are possible in Ireland. Can't see it happening, though.

StillWaters

The LL denied permission to drill. You went ahead anyway.

It sounds like a protected or listed structure, so I hope you have an email or written confirmation from the Conservation dept that its ok to drill.

In any case, I dont think its criminal damage, but why did you just not go for wireless internet?

unsure387

I have the name of the person that I talked to. And yes, I realise this is definitely a mistake I made - I thought when the landlord said that it has to be approved by the conservation society that was all I needed to do to clear it. And big lesson I learned was to get everything in writing.

It is wireless internet but the main cable was never connected into the apartment (my neighbor got a cable into his flat for this reason).

I did tell the first landlord that the second one seemed to be okay with it - at which point the first LL said I was lying, and as I have no written proof, there's nothing I can show him to prove otherwise. The second one is just saying talk to the first LL at this point and doesn't want anything to do with this.

Appreciate the advice and opinions. I think next time I may just become best buds with the public library for internet, for all the hassle and problems this has caused.

RATM

A wireless USB dongle from 02 is what you should have gone for- I think they do them for €9.99 a month for 15GB for students which is plenty for web surfing and email though expensive if you watch a lot of Youtube and go over the limit.

That aside you need to establish if you've broken any law first. Where is the wall you drilled? Some preservation orders refer to the outside structure only- i.e. you can do what you like to inside walls. Others may preserve the building as a whole. If it is a bedsit type place I doubt the inside is preserved, if it is then every landlord on the North Circular Road is guilty of something by the amount of wall knocking they've done to make flats out of houses.

And even protected structures with a preservation order can be adjusted once permission is granted- the ATM's on many banks are on protected structures yet permission to knock holes in the wall was given. Dermot Desmond has a 4 floor high food lift inside his preserved Georgian house on Fitzwilliam or Merrion Square- another case of a preservation order being circumvented.

Anyway I think you need to get the landlord who gave you the permission to drill to confess up to the other landlord. If he thinks he might lose you as a tenant over this then maybe then he will take responsibility for giving you permission and get the other landlord to hold his fire.

Also is your landlord registered with the PRTB? Did you get a letter from them informing you of this? If not then you now have leverage against any attempt to report you. It's not exactly cricket but leverage nonetheless because if he isn't registered with the PRTB then chances are he isn't registered with Revenue either who would be very pleased to hear about his landlording activities.

unsure387

Thanks. Never heard of the wireless dongle from O2, wish I had before this. The conservation society was completely fine with the internet cable. They said they had no power to legally enforce it, only city council does. City council approved of the cable.

I'm not sure I'm going to be able to get the second landlord to say anything to the first - he just referred me to the first one and doesn't want to be bothered any more.

I'm completely fine with paying for damages. I'm just not sure if the first landlord is mad enough to evict me at this point. I did go back and read over my lease, which says it needs written permission, which is my fault for not getting clear written permission and assuming the whole 'protected by conservation society so would have to clear it with them first' was permission if I got permission from them.

If you were a LL would you evict a tenant for this? I just don't know how much hassle it is to go through the whole renting process from a landlord's perspective. I've got some major grovelling to do this weekend.

And yes, registered with the PRTB.

StillWaters

You have no authority to talk to city council or the conservation society about this, that is between the property owner and them, and the property owner bears the consequences.

I have no idea if the internal structure is protected. But as a LL I would be very annoyed you ignored my instruction not to drill.

Tbh, I think relationships have broken down and you should look for somewhere else to rent.

RATM

unsure387 wrote: »

I'm completely fine with paying for damages. I'm just not sure if the first landlord is mad enough to evict me at this point. I did go back and read over my lease, which says it needs written permission, which is my fault for not getting clear written permission and assuming the whole 'protected by conservation society so would have to clear it with them first' was permission if I got permission from them.

If you were a LL would you evict a tenant for this? I just don't know how much hassle it is to go through the whole renting process from a landlord's perspective. I've got some major grovelling to do this weekend.

And yes, registered with the PRTB.

There's no way I'd evict a tenant over this (if I was a landlord). You have actually done him a favour and got internet installed so now the amenties are more desireable to future prospective tenants than they were before the work was done.

But obviously he doesn't see it that way. I personally think he is being a bit over the top about the whole episode but at the end of the day it is his property and the lease does say no drilling. But if the other flats have internet wires then someone (perhaps him?) was okay with drilling in the past.

Anyway I would grovel and still offer to pay for any damage but don't be worrying yourself about going to jail over this- a district court judge would laugh at the whole thing to be honest. The Director of Public Prosecutions would also laugh at this so it wouldn't even get to court- they are much too busy prosecuting real criminals to be worrying about over sensitive landlords. But even if you were found guilty and it was a first offense you would be getting the probation act, not a conviction. But all that is really extreme worst case scenario and is highly highly unlikely to actually happen.

But if you want to take legal advice on the whole matter (and I advise that you do before speaking to him again) then www.threshold.ie and www.flac.ie are two outlets who are both free and will be on your side.

zef

Too add to above advice, before going to jail/ court you have to be arrested by a member of the Garda, no Gardai in the country would arrest you for this.
Good luck with the LL.

Marcusm

zef wrote: »

Too add to above advice, before going to jail/ court you have to be arrested by a member of the Garda, no Gardai in the country would arrest you for this.
Good luck with the LL.

You can be summonsed to court in this country without being arrested. It won't happen to the OP but it might be better not to misdirect him.

JustAThought

Historical properties are protected by law ; there is strict legislation around them to protect them for future prosperity & generations . Like the wildlife act you CANbe prosecuted for damage you do & be liable for the costs.

RememberDiarmaid Gavins hamfisted " conservation" shambles on TV last " summer" ? There's still fall out from that .

It's unlikely your LL will prosecute but if he's liable for a fine he might well to cover himself.

What were you doing bulldozing ahead with damaging a listed & protected building that you don't even own when you'd been told there was a protection order on it &

At best you might loose your deposit; it's not just a case of putting polyfiller back in a wall : it could coat thousands for a damage inspection, conservation evaluation & a " fix" with appropriate techniques & materials. Is there any ancilliary damage; cracks etc.

You asked your landlord for permission. S/he said no it's a protected historic building. You rangup someone in an organisation & they said it'd probably be ok & because you wanted Internet you went ahead & allowed the damage to be done.

You"LL be lucky if it's only the deposit you loose. What a farce.

haulagebasher

In fairness you ASSUMED it was OK when the hertitage crowd said so. They don't own the building. The landlord did not approve the work so you stil had no permission.He can sue you for damages if he wants. You won't go to gaol though, thats rediculous.

unsure387

Ya, that was completely my bad on the assumption. I was told had to clear it with the conservation society since they were the ones that wouldn't let you do anything to the building. I should have followed up with the landlord after I cleared it with them. I just didn't figure it was a big deal after clearing it with them because a neighbor (under the same LL) has a bigger hole for internet cable going through his wall (again, my fault, was used to dealing with a LL that did everything by verbal agreements/a lot more lax). I did clear it with both the conservation society and city council, who would have been the only two to issue any fines. And if there are any fines from this, I would pay for them. I definitely would not have gone through with it if the LL had said up front 'no, we don't allow holes.' I shouldn't have assumed that 'it has to be cleared through conservation society' meant if I did then it would be ok. Haulagebasher, you are completely right, when you assume you make an .. well you know the rest.

I know it doesn't excuse what I did, but after all of this, I'm under the impression the conservation society rules aren't that strict, and it was just a way for the LL to not have to say no directly (eg, there are modern phones mounted on walls, 4 little holes in the wall I think from construction, etc). From what I've looked up on the history of the building, it's not a historic building in the sense of some of the old churches in the city/etc. It seems more like the LL made these buildings into a certain style and registered them with the conservation society, as where I live now used to be servants quarters way back when, and I have to say if servants lived like this...I can't imagine how the owner's rooms looked.

And to answer the above question - you don't notice the cable unless you really look for it. There are other cables that are a lot more visible in the flat and out. No cracks, nothing like that. As in if the LL hadn't been here, there would be no way hewould have noticed it, which made me think maybe that's how the neighbor had it done instead of the whole approval process.

I have offered to pay for all damages, apologised, etc, but don't think it helped. And if he wanted me out, I would definitely leave, cause I don't want to give him any more grief (I'm not the type to stay in a place where you're not wanted) and I would understand. Just not sure at this point what would make it better for the LL.

And I assume the lease is still in effect on my end (ie, I have a 1 year contract) so I cannot leave/that may upset them more until it's up. I was planning to not complain/report anything and fix it myself (which I have done already as he is not responsive to requests) and pay the rent til the year is up, if they decide not to evict me - as a bit of an apology. I realise at this point they can evict me, which would be understandable.

Appreciate all the responses.