Targeting Players

Richard Hillman

Currently in the NFL there has been a big scandal involving a team targeting certain players to injure them

The Long Story
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans_Saints_bounty_scandal

Short version:
The New Orleans Saints had a "bounty programme" where defensive players would target key opposition players to injure them. The players would receive financial rewards under the table if they could knock the player out of the game (It was funded by the players and administrated by the coaches). Famously an NFC Championship game (The Super Bowl Semi final) the team targeted the Quarter Back who had a leg injury. Many videos showed players targeting his lower leg and they eventually injured him and got him out of the game. The New Orleans Saints went on to win the Super Bowl.

They were found guilty by the NFL and it was uncovered that they had been doing this for years. Its pretty well known that it existed all around the league but it was the first time it was proven. The head coach has been suspended for 1 year and other coaches and players have received major bans.


Now to the football part

Its pretty obvious that in football, certain players are targeted by the opposition for extra attention. We have all seen great players like Messi and Ronaldo being kicked out of games by defenders. Even at lower levels this happens when a winger with pace and skill are fouled and deliberately roughed up. Its not really a well kept secret that managers tell their players to target certain opposition players to be roughed up, to share the fouls and bookings and to make the yellow count when they do get booked.

Im not sure if any football clubs put a financial gain on roughing up and injuring players but its basically the same thing IMO.

My question is, why are football teams not investigated for this type of behaviour or should they be investigated for such instances?

If a manager is found guilty of telling his players to rough up an oppo player, should he receive such a hefty ban like the New Orleans Saints coach?

cson

It happens in every sport tbh; Mealamu v O'Driscoll, the x amount of full backs that have tried to take the head of Joe Canning etc etc. I don't know how you could go about combatting it aside from bans for the actions themselves. Maybe if there was the possibility of criminal sanctions then it might dissuade people; I mean deliberately injuring another person is assault isn't it? Just because it happens on a pitch doesn't make it right.

geeky

I read about the NE scandal - it's sick, and it flies in the face of everything that's meant to be positive about sport. I genuinely think lifetime bans should have been doled out.

As for soccer, I actually doubt there's anything this formal in place. The game is, if anything, even leakier than the NFL, and player turnover is high. If the likes of Tony Pulis had something like this in place, there'd be some former player happy to dish the dirt.

That's not to say that coaches never say 'kick that fellah a bit'. But anything with that level of organisation would be very hard to bring in to football.

dreamers75

Some teams will get players to take out another and then when booked its another player turn.

Madrid vs Messi last season is a good example, 4 players booked for fouling Messi.

Not sure about the NFL but fairly sure Messi knew it was going happen and it is always going to happen. Doesnt make it right but players aware of it.

_blank_

Win at all costs imo.

Leiva

If any player takes instruction from a manger to deliberately go out and injure another pro then he should get a life ban .

_blank_

Leiva wrote: »

If any player takes instruction from a manger to deliberately go out and injure another pro then he should get a life ban .

Yeah, whatever, prove it.

Defenders stand on strikers toes all the time. It's a part of the game, always had been, always will be.

mitosis

Des wrote: »

Win at all costs imo.

Tell that to Damien Ferguson

kitakyushu

Unfortunately it's been going on for years now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kr24G8jQpM

This is always going to happen but it's notoriously difficult to prove so sanctions are unlikely in any situation.

Helix

"let him know you're there"

Oat23

Richard Hillman wrote: »

the team targeted the Quarter Back who had a leg injury. Many videos showed players targeting his lower leg and they eventually injured him and got him out of the game. The New Orleans Saints went on to win the Super Bowl.

I don't think Favre was knocked out of that game, IIRC. He got beat up and took some brutal shots (there are pics he took of his ankle and thigh after the game on google, ugly) but he never came out.

jaykay74

mitosis wrote: »

Tell that to Damien Ferguson

who is that ?

Mikeyt086

kitakyushu wrote: »

Unfortunately it's been going on for years now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kr24G8jQpM

No mercy in Des' dojo.

mitosis

jaykay74 wrote: »

who is that ?

A Man U player who was "taken out" (career ended) on his first (IIRC) start. Owns the Trinity Barbers in Dublin 2

jaykay74

mitosis wrote: »

A Man U player who was "taken out" (career ended) on his first (IIRC) start. Owns the Trinity Barbers in Dublin 2

Don't see anything online about him being taken out. Also no mention that he played a game for the club. Maybe happened in training or reserves ? Is this his own story or something you read ? Any link ?

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/bob.dunning/manu.htm

Damien Ferguson

Born: Dublin, Republic of Ireland

English League career: Manchester United - didn't play for the first team. No further details at present.

Manchester United career: didn't play for the first team.

inmyday

Des wrote: »

Win at all costs imo.

Win, at playing football. Beat them with skill, fitness etc, not by cheating.

If you have to resort to anything else, why do you even play the game?



And as an amateur myself, playing the game and coaching. How would I get any pleasure out of winning when we have cheated, in any way???? Diving, abusing other players, whatever it may be. I wouldnt enjoy it.

mitosis

No links I'm afraid. My recollection is he played a few minutes of one game vs Leeds and was taken out by a hard man whose name I may not be allowed mention as it appears not to be common knowledge?

EDIT: Seems my recollection is wrong

1971Damien Ferguson played his first match for United appearing as a sub against Blackburn Rovers
1971Damien Ferguson played his last match for United appearing as a sub against Blackburn Rovers

From http://www.unitedlounge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=7632

He's the one behind Nobby in this pic

Roger Sterling

Des wrote: »

Win at all costs imo.

Would you send one of the Boards.ie team's players out to "do" an opponent?

What if it happened one of your own players?

kryogen

The NFL attitude, and tbh the attitude pretty much all the way up from high school football in America is "Just Win"

It really is win at all costs, from where I stand I don't see that to the same level in "soccer"

Or at least, its more acceptable to go out and target the opposition players but not to actually try to do them serious harm

handsomecake

cson wrote: »

Mealamu v O'Driscoll

not at all. the allblacks didnt need to target anyone. they were always going to win that series 3-0. and they had a better player in that position anyway-tana umaga . they had also worlds current best 13 conrad smith in the squad.

gosplan

handsomecake wrote: »

cson wrote: »

Mealamu v O'Driscoll

not at all. the allblacks didnt need to target anyone. they were always going to win that series 3-0. and they had a better player in that position anyway-tana umaga . they had also worlds current best 13 conrad smith in the squad.

Nah, they did him.

kryogen

Whilst I agree that they definitely did O Driscoll I don't think it was a coach conceived idea to do it.

handsomecake

gosplan wrote: »

Nah, they did him.

black washed. 3-0

LeBash

I don't have a problem with targeting players barring going out to injure a player.

Professional football is about taking advantage of everything you can. I would go so far as saying feining injury, driving, and holding the imaginary card is worse.

Roughing up a player, tripping and "taking a foul for the team" has been part of the professional game for a long time.

greendom

LeBash wrote: »

I don't have a problem with targeting players barring going out to injure a player.

Professional football is about taking advantage of everything you can. I would go so far as saying feining injury, driving, and holding the imaginary card is worse.

Roughing up a player, tripping and "taking a foul for the team" has been part of the professional game for a long time.

How can you ever possibly say that diving etc etc, is worse than deliberately injuring a fellow professional. Quite the reverse in my book. They are both forms of cheating but physically damaging another player is far worse.

gosplan

handsomecake wrote: »

black washed. 3-0

Like i give a sh1t.

gosplan

LeBash wrote: »

I don't have a problem with targeting players barring going out to injure a player.

Professional football is about taking advantage of everything you can. I would go so far as saying feining injury, driving, and holding the imaginary card is worse.

Roughing up a player, tripping and "taking a foul for the team" has been part of the professional game for a long time.

So someone can take a professional foul for the team but if i ask for him to be booked for it, it's worse?

Richard Hillman

LeBash wrote: »

I don't have a problem with targeting players barring going out to injure a player.

Professional football is about taking advantage of everything you can. I would go so far as saying feining injury, driving, and holding the imaginary card is worse.

Roughing up a player, tripping and "taking a foul for the team" has been part of the professional game for a long time.

Every time you target a player to foul deliberately or to rough up holds the risk of injuring somebody. If somebody made a genuine attempt to win a ball and injures a player then it is unfortunate but to hold extra attention to a specific player and to challenge harder than normal or to foul intentionally is IMO something that needs to be punished severely.

Augmerson

Des wrote: »

Win at all costs imo.

A leaf from Thierry Henry's book.

titan18

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Every time you target a player to foul deliberately or to rough up holds the risk of injuring somebody. If somebody made a genuine attempt to win a ball and injures a player then it is unfortunate but to hold extra attention to a specific player and to challenge harder than normal or to foul intentionally is IMO something that needs to be punished severely.

That's completely different than what the Saints were charged with tbh. Fouling deliberately in soccer is grand, but the Saints players/coaches were charged with going out to deliberately hurt them, if they had injuries or were susceptible to something, go out and target them, and hopefully they'll come out of the game.

The Saints case in soccer, would me, imo, someone going out to damage Cech, or anyone who wears a protective facemask in games, by leading with their elbows in challenges. It's much harder to do in soccer as you're probably going to be sent off for anything completely reckless and dangerous. In NFL, it's very rare that someone gets ejected from the game (most they'd usually get is a fine), so going out to hurt the opposition can be a big benefit.

dfx-

dreamers75 wrote: »

Some teams will get players to take out another and then when booked its another player turn.

Madrid vs Messi last season is a good example, 4 players booked for fouling Messi.

Not sure about the NFL but fairly sure Messi knew it was going happen and it is always going to happen. Doesnt make it right but players aware of it.

The game in 2008, pre-Mourinho - where several players took a kick at him individually was the most blatant case of it. Gago, Guti, Ramos, Drenthe, Sneijder..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAOZDdGj6rI

eagle eye

Did nobody hear Keown explaining John Terry's 'reducer' which he got sent off for? Keown's comments clearly indicate its being taught by coaches.

CSF

mitosis wrote: »

A Man U player who was "taken out" (career ended) on his first (IIRC) start. Owns the Trinity Barbers in Dublin 2

Holy crap, his wife was my playschool teacher. Never had any idea about this.

To be honest, I'm more surprised this isn't more common or perhaps we're just not cynical enough to spot it when it does happen. But realistically, if Real paid some Getafe player 1 million to break Messi's leg (and with the right tackle one could guarantee it), they'd be spending 1 million to guarantee the title.

It is deplorable, I'd want any player, official, coach or agent involved in it to be banned from any football activity for life, but I'm still surprised that it doesn't seem to happen. At least not in such a definitive manner.

LuckyLloyd

inmyday wrote: »

Des wrote: »

Win at all costs imo.

Win, at playing football. Beat them with skill, fitness etc, not by cheating.

If you have to resort to anything else, why do you even play the game?



And as an amateur myself, playing the game and coaching. How would I get any pleasure out of winning when we have cheated, in any way???? Diving, abusing other players, whatever it may be. I wouldnt enjoy it.

You would have won. Winning (in all it's forms) is one of the most pleasurable experiences you can have in life.

geeky

Oatesy23 wrote: »

I don't think Favre was knocked out of that game, IIRC. He got beat up and took some brutal shots (there are pics he took of his ankle and thigh after the game on google, ugly) but he never came out.

To be honest, the Saints' pass rushing during the 'bounty' period has been subject to a lot of scrutiny, and much of it looks v. dodgy - witness their valiant effort at ripping Peyton Manning's head off. Funnily enough, he ended up getting a horrible neck injury and sitting out last season.

To me, there's a big difference between 'let him know you're they're' or 'these lads don't like it up them' and what's emerged from that Saints defence. The audio clip of the coach exhorting his players to 'kill the head' is genuinely chilling for anyone with a passing knowledge of the concussion issues in the NFL. It's akin to Tony Pulis yelling 'do his metatarsal' or 'break their ankles' in his pre-game talk.

ColeTrain

wrong thread

_blank_

Augmerson wrote: »

A leaf from Thierry Henry's book.

Exactly, France went to the WC, Ireland were a laughing stock when the CEO of the FAI asked to be the 33rd team.

Also, it's about freaking time people got the fúck over that incident really, worse than the bleedin English going on about 66 or Mara-jaysis-donna.

Pro. F

The reason rotational fouling is a problem is weak refereeing imo. As soon as the pattern becomes apparent the next foul on the player getting all the fouls should be a red. Some of the time rotational fouling might be hard to spot, but the way Madrid have done it against Messi has been blatant some games.

Des wrote: »

Also, it's about freaking time people got the fúck over that incident really, worse than the bleedin English going on about 66 or Mara-jaysis-donna.

I would hazard a guess that you were saying people shouldn't be complaining within a few days of the incident having happened.

bohsman

Remember reading a story about George Best where his left ankle was injured so he just wore a shinguard on his right leg knowing everyone would assume that that was the injured leg and target that instead.

Melion

I seem to recall Chelsea "targetting" Xabi Alonso quite a lot a few years back

redzerdrog

Reading fowlers biography at the min and he tell a story about playing for the B team against bury as a 17 year and they were targeting him for rough treatment. He then got the ball took it around the defence, around the keeper, stopped the ball on the line, got down on his knees and headed the ball in the net!!!

Says he was lucky to get out in one piece between the bury player and the liverpool managment gona kill him.

AnCapaillMor

dfx- wrote: »

The game in 2008, pre-Mourinho - where several players took a kick at him individually was the most blatant case of it. Gago, Guti, Ramos, Drenthe, Sneijder..

What really sickens me is mourinho has gone out a few times before matches saying that his players were being victimised and booked too easilly.

As for myself, Reyes at old trafford was one of the most blatant targeting of footballer i'd ever seen. Scholes and the 2 nevilles kicked lumps out of the guy, he was never the same after that.

inmyday

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You would have won. Winning (in all it's forms) is one of the most pleasurable experiences you can have in life.

Win by playing football. Not by being a cheat.

Have some fcuking pride in yourself!

inmyday

Des wrote: »

Exactly, France went to the WC, Ireland were a laughing stock when the CEO of the FAI asked to be the 33rd team.

Also, it's about freaking time people got the fúck over that incident really, worse than the bleedin English going on about 66 or Mara-jaysis-donna.

Most people on this soccer forum is well over the Henry handball.

He just made a point about cheating. And that you dont mind your team cheating once you win. Ridiculous!
Dont try and deflect the issue.

LuckyLloyd

inmyday wrote: »

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You would have won. Winning (in all it's forms) is one of the most pleasurable experiences you can have in life.

Win by playing football. Not by being a cheat.

Have some fcuking pride in yourself!

No just win. Winning makes you proud. Moral victories make you sad.

inmyday

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

No just win. Winning makes you proud. Moral victories make you sad.

No, just win by playing football.
If you cant, and resort to cheating, give it up, and take up some other hobby!

Pro. F

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

No just win. Winning makes you proud. Moral victories make you sad.

Where would you draw the line? Would you poison the opposition's dinner so they all get the shíts? Would you sanction a horror tackle to get the opposition star man out of the game? Would you wind up an opposition player about a recent bereavement? Would you steal the opposition's water bottles?

I've got nothing against cheating. I've done a fair bit myself. But I think you are making the decision process out to be more black and white than it actually is.

Pepe LeFrits

I think Lloyd's message is clear: do drugs, kids!