Shooting in the French Alps

Pottler · 10-09-2012 11:37pm

Blay wrote: »

Tokarev is 7.62.

Nope, common variants issued in 7.65 as well.:)

cameramonkey · 10-09-2012 11:37pm

over on arrse.co.uk they are saying that this might be a possibility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0korpion_vz._61

cameramonkey · 10-09-2012 11:38pm

http://www.marilynztomlins.com/articles/chevaline-the-forgotten-victim-sylvain-mollier/

the cyclist.

Pottler · 10-09-2012 11:40pm

cameramonkey wrote: »

over on arrse.co.uk they are saying that this might be a possibility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0korpion_vz._61

7.65 is a common caliber in Yugoslavia. Also, nutters for hire are another common thing there.

ResearchWill · 10-09-2012 11:41pm

Piste wrote: »

Why do people think Mossad? The only train of thought I can seem to get form this thread is "something something Iraq something something Iran therefore Mossad". Didn't al-Hilli come from Iraq back in the 70s when he was 18? That would make him more British than Iraqi at this stage. And how come nobody seems to be chasing up his wife? She may have secrets to hide. The whole narrative of this bizarre mystery has been completely centred around the one man in the car.

Was he divorced, as I thought one of the other victims was his wife of ten years and daughter of the two girls.

Sorry misunderstood your statement, now I get you ya have not heard anything really about her. But suppose dentist not as news worthy as scientist.

wicklowwonder · 10-09-2012 11:53pm

ResearchWill wrote: »

Piste wrote: »

Why do people think Mossad? The only train of thought I can seem to get form this thread is "something something Iraq something something Iran therefore Mossad". Didn't al-Hilli come from Iraq back in the 70s when he was 18? That would make him more British than Iraqi at this stage. And how come nobody seems to be chasing up his wife? She may have secrets to hide. The whole narrative of this bizarre mystery has been completely centred around the one man in the car.

Was he divorced, as I thought one of the other victims was his wife of ten years and daughter of the two girls.

Sorry misunderstood your statement, now I get you ya have not heard anything really about her. But suppose dentist not as news worthy as scientist.

What about the cyclist. Could be his execution family see it all, gun man kills adults, misses young child in hiding but batters the other girl to an inch of her life knowing she probably won't be able to ID him/her anyway.

Also did I hear a rumour a English Government agent came across the scene randomly on his holidays?

Witcher · 11-09-2012 12:03am

wicklowwonder wrote: »

.

Also did I hear a rumour a English Government agent came across the scene randomly on his holidays?

It was a former RAF officer.

wicklowwonder · 11-09-2012 12:04am

Blay wrote: »

wicklowwonder wrote: »

.

Also did I hear a rumour a English Government agent came across the scene randomly on his holidays?

It was a former RAF officer.

How old? Any chance he could be still active?

Sorry I was away all weekend didn't read anything newsworthy just sport and relaxation. Will read up on it all tomorrow

11-09-2012 12:07am

cameramonkey wrote: »

http://www.marilynztomlins.com/articles/chevaline-the-forgotten-victim-sylvain-mollier/

the cyclist.

I wonder if the family of the cyclist are glad though.. it gives them the opportunity to mourn and bury him in the peace and quiet they deserve.

harr · 11-09-2012 8:08am

so the cyclist works in the nuclear game as well

Morrisseeee · 11-09-2012 8:46am

harr wrote: »

so the cyclist works in the nuclear game as well

..............and he was on his way to meet the Iraqi.........hmmmmm.............the plot thickens.

cynder · 11-09-2012 8:57am

There are plenty of things that don't add up,

Wrong place? Wrong time?

If there was a hit on the family they would have knew of the 4 year old.

They would have killed the 8 year old,

The car engine was running and the 8 year old was out if the car, was she out before if after the gun fire? Did she get out before and go for a bathroom break behind the bushes?

Did she see something that she should have seen? Or did she return to car and see her car being fired at?

Did the shooter.run out of bullets? Is that why he beat her?

Was the gun shot to the girl from behind or from the front? Was it close range?

The car was hit in the side probably driver first to prevent him from driving away. The person was a good shot yet there were plenty of casings not every shot hit its target.

Cyclist was he the target or passing by.

To many possible scenarios.

deandean · 11-09-2012 9:13am

Yea I reckon the shooter ran out of bullets.

25 casings found = 13 in the gun (12 in mag + 1 in the breech) and 1 spare mag.

He used a lot of rounds taking out the unfortunate cyclist who was at a distance.

The 8yr old was the last to be shot, with the last bullet, the killer went to finish her off with a few kicks.

Sound plausible?

Morrisseeee · 11-09-2012 9:48am

Or maybe it was the 2nd cyclist (retired RAF guy) that was the killer, he was tracking the 'other' cyclist as he was about to meet up with the Iraqi.

fishy fishy · 11-09-2012 10:11am

what came of the "bomb" story - was it a big to do about nothing. Was it regular things that you would find in the shed that had them going all asunder? :roll eyes: such sensationalization. Still tho, it put the idea into people head now that will take it as gospel.

ejmaztec · 11-09-2012 1:36pm

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Or maybe it was the 2nd cyclist (retired RAF guy) that was the killer, he was tracking the 'other' cyclist as he was about to meet up with the Iraqi.

He was the one who called the cops, and if he were the killer, he would have known that the other cyclist was up ahead, and wouldn't have had to kill him, because he would have let him get out of sight before carrying out the hit on the victims.

harr · 11-09-2012 1:42pm

the gun used in the attack,looks more like a pro hit more and more....
http://news.sky.com/story/983514/alps-shooting-machine-gun-used-in-killings

seamus · 11-09-2012 1:53pm

harr wrote: »

the gun used in the attack,looks more like a pro hit more and more....
http://news.sky.com/story/983514/alps-shooting-machine-gun-used-in-killings

You have to wonder now if Sky are trawling web forums and reporting this stuff as "experts say".

If they're right, then that creates more questions; it means the shooter had at least five more bullets available to him.

davet82 · 11-09-2012 1:56pm

Experts said the nature of the attack on the al Hilli family, who lived in Surrey, and a cyclist who stumbled upon the scene "pointed strongly" to the Skorpion.

The weapon was developed in the 1950s for use by security and special forces and is reportedly still used as a weapon by armed forces in some countries.

thats interesting to say the least...

ejmaztec · 11-09-2012 2:05pm

seamus wrote: »

You have to wonder now if Sky are trawling web forums and reporting this stuff as "experts say".

If they're right, then that creates more questions; it means the shooter had at least five more bullets available to him.

I remember seeing a programme years ago, where some guy conned various news outlets into thinking that he was an "expert", and he appeared in various news bulletins to give his views on different topics, usually terrorism or drugs related. He even used different names when appearing on camera for the various news-airing channels.

Sky are probably still using him.

davet82 · 11-09-2012 2:06pm

Afghanistan
Angola
Czech Republic
Egypt
Indonesia
Iraq
Libya
Mozambique
Serbia
Slovakia
Uganda
Yugoslavia

special forces that use the gun, i also read its a weapon of choice for eastren european mafias

tigger123 · 11-09-2012 2:10pm

davet82 wrote: »

Afghanistan
Angola
Czech Republic
Egypt
Indonesia
Iraq
Libya
Mozambique
Serbia
Slovakia
Uganda
Yugoslavia

special forces that use the gun, i also read its a weapon of choice for eastren european mafias

Do you think all of those countries were involved in the "hit"?

davet82 · 11-09-2012 2:11pm

tigger123 wrote: »

Do you think all of those countries were involved in the "hit"?

no but i do now! :cool:

hedzball · 11-09-2012 2:15pm

The Skorpion is easily reloadable, doesn't sound very loud

Eh... a 7.65 round with a barrel the length of a pencil?..

Thing would be deafening ..

harr · 11-09-2012 3:34pm

http://news.sky.com/story/983759/three-people-found-shot-dead-on-french-island
copycat or same nut job?

Gun used in the shootings,seems quiet enough..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bQrovt5mN0&feature=related

cynder · 11-09-2012 4:06pm

harr wrote: »

the gun used in the attack,looks more like a pro hit more and more....
http://news.sky.com/story/983514/alps-shooting-machine-gun-used-in-killings

Not professional enough if he leaves 2 survivors....

cynder · 11-09-2012 4:10pm

harr wrote: »

http://news.sky.com/story/983759/three-people-found-shot-dead-on-french-island
copycat or same nut job?

Gun used in the shootings,seems quiet enough..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bQrovt5mN0&feature=related

Is the gun confirmed or do sky's expert sources say it was the gun? They have people analysing the science from photos yet do not have hard evidence to analyse have the experts seen the bullets/ casing or only pictures of them?

Witcher · 11-09-2012 4:15pm

hedzball wrote: »

Eh... a 7.65 round with a barrel the length of a pencil?..

Thing would be deafening ..

7.65 is a pistol round..it's designed for a small barrel..it's not as hot as a 7.62x39/51.

goodie2shoes · 11-09-2012 6:20pm

The Skorpion SA Vz 61 is a sub machine gun but can be used as a fully automatic pistol. either 10 or 20 rounds of 7.65mm and 25 metre accuracy range. Small gun. Easily silenced too.

so far we got an aeronautical engineer with links to Iraq, a French cyclist who worked in a nuclear facility enriching uranium, and an ex-RAF officer who happens upon them.

the shooter appears to have made good his escape.

:eek:

hedzball · 11-09-2012 7:35pm

Blay wrote: »

7.65 is a pistol round..it's designed for a small barrel..it's not as hot as a 7.62x39/51.

Yup a pistol round..

and also a sub..

But even shooting a 22lr pistol with subs is a loud gun..

Saying that being in a wide open valley too.....
Plus it has the option of being moderated.

yeahimhere · 11-09-2012 10:32pm

reading this thread I've just realised how many people on boards know about guns :eek:

gozunda · 11-09-2012 10:50pm

If it was a professional hit on Mr Hilli then why attempt to take out the entire family?

It would be easier for the assassin to take out him alone when not in the presence of other family members

Very messy for one lone gunman to take out so many including children in a public area popular with tourists.

As a result we have 3 dead family members, one child that was shot and beaten, one child that remained hidden,a dead passing cyclist and another lucky Cyclist who over taken by the first cyclist possibly just missed being taken out by the shooter who apparently had just left...very very mesy and risky mo imo....

sopretty · 11-09-2012 11:11pm

Don't think they were expecting Saad to have the family with him - hence small amount of ammo. They were obviously expecting Saad to be there though. And why was he there? Unless to meet the nuclear scientist/cylist. The family wasn't dressed for hiking. They were there for something else. I.e. a meeting of some sort. Either with the killer? Or the French nuclear scientist/cyclist non?

enfant terrible · 11-09-2012 11:16pm

gozunda wrote: »

If it was a professional hit on Mr Hilli then why attempt to take out the entire family?

It would be easier for the assassin to take out him alone when not in the presence of other family members

Very messy for one lone gunman to take out so many including children in a public area popular with tourists.

As a result we have 3 dead family members, one child that was shot and beaten, one child that remained hidden,a dead passing cyclist and another lucky Cyclist who over taken by the first cyclist possibly just missed being taken out by the shooter who apparently had just left...very very mesy and risky mo imo....

Ya doesn't sound so super duper professional hit man when you say it like that.

Witcher · 11-09-2012 11:16pm

sopretty wrote: »

Don't think they were expecting Saad to have the family with him - hence small amount of ammo. They were obviously expecting Saad to be there though. And why was he there? Unless to meet the nuclear scientist/cylist. The family wasn't dressed for hiking. They were there for something else. I.e. a meeting of some sort. Either with the killer? Or the French nuclear scientist/cyclist non?

Maybe they were out for a drive...as I said a few pages back...if someone was going to a secret meeting they wouldn't bring their wife, two kids and their mother in law.

sopretty · 11-09-2012 11:21pm

Blay wrote: »

Maybe they were out for a drive...as I said a few pages back...if someone was going to a secret meeting they wouldn't bring their wife, two kids and their mother in law.

Seems like an odd place (secluded dead-end car-park leading to forest/wooded hikes? ) to go for a drive to? When you're dressed smartly and not dressed for hiking? In a tourist destination which presumably would have some more family-friendly activities to engage in rather than parking in a secluded car-park?

Witcher · 11-09-2012 11:23pm

sopretty wrote: »

Seems like an odd place (secluded dead-end car-park leading to forest/wooded hikes? ) to go for a drive to? When you're dressed smartly and not dressed for hiking? In a tourist destination which presumably would have some more family-friendly activities to engage in rather than parking in a secluded car-park?

Well two cyclists thought it was a good route to take.

gozunda · 11-09-2012 11:31pm

sopretty wrote: »

Don't think they were expecting Saad to have the family with him - hence small amount of ammo. They were obviously expecting Saad to be there though. And why was he there? Unless to meet the nuclear scientist/cylist. The family wasn't dressed for hiking. They were there for something else. I.e. a meeting of some sort. Either with the killer? Or the French nuclear scientist/cyclist non?

They were staying in a caravan in a camping site. On paper looked like they were out for a drive with granny & kids not hiking. If they were been watched / followed by gunman he/she took hell of a risk trying to take everyone out. A good hit man would I presume wait for an opportune moment to take Mr Hilli out when he was alone. If mr Hilli turned up with family in toe it would have made sense to wait for a better opportunity especially if lack of ammo was going to be an issue. But who knows maybe the hit man panicked or something.

ringadingding · 11-09-2012 11:34pm

We were discussing this in work today,and the feasibility that the cyclist was the hit, and the family as a decoy...

The cyclist, apparently worked within a French nuclear company, was the only one shot 5 times, was way more trackable than the family ( used to do that bike ride the same time, same day every week ) and has been swept under the rug.
Also, the fact that IMO anybody professional enough to do that hit in that manner of shooting, would have known how many people were in the car and left no witnesses.

Just another angle we were pondering today, also some people put it out there the cyclist and yer man the father, could have been meeting secretly, but thats proper left field right there.

When I was just a kid, 8 or so, a man living in our street was hit professionally, he worked for MI5, nobody had a notion ( our street was in the middle of a big rough estate). I remember the media and police etc, and that went unsolved, It still bugs me 22 years later.
Somebody went through our back garden, into his, and shot him through his window.

sopretty · 11-09-2012 11:34pm

Blay wrote: »

Well two cyclists thought it was a good route to take.

Which either makes them fond of random up-hill cycles to dead-end routes enjoying the scenery and the whizz back down the hill? Or makes their wee trip a little unusual? That said, apparently the road was popular with cyclists. Anyone know how far 'up the hill and off the beaten track' the carpark/scene of crime was from the nearest main road?

gozunda · 11-09-2012 11:41pm

sopretty wrote: »

Blay wrote: »

Well two cyclists thought it was a good route to take.

Which either makes them fond of random up-hill cycles to dead-end routes enjoying the scenery and the whizz back down the hill? Or makes their wee trip a little unusual? That said, apparently the road was popular with cyclists. Anyone know how far 'up the hill and off the beaten track' the carpark/scene of crime was from the nearest main road?

From what I have read / seen the pull in was car accessible from road and adjacent to road and not that remote. This type of pull in is quite common in France especially in tourist routes hence passing cyclists. Not that strange for a car to pull off main route ..

sopretty · 11-09-2012 11:43pm

That's interesting that Mollier cycled that road same time every week.

What easier way then to NOT raise suspicion about meeting Saad than saying - 'Hey - I go for a cycle up to such-and-such a place at this time every week - meet me there - as I won't be trailed since i do it every week' 'Bring the family and you won't be under suspicion or be trailed either'

?

bbam · 11-09-2012 11:44pm

OK I haven't read every post, maybe this was discussed.

The position of the car is odd too. To me it looks like it was reversed into the bank, maybe an attempt to escape.
You can see on the rear door where the wheels have been spinning in reverse or driven at speed in reverse. The rear wheel looks buried from spinning in place.

Mr.Crinklewood · 12-09-2012 12:02am

ringadingding wrote: »

We were discussing this in work today,and the feasibility that the cyclist was the hit, and the family as a decoy...

The cyclist, apparently worked within a French nuclear company, was the only one shot 5 times, was way more trackable than the family ( used to do that bike ride the same time, same day every week ) and has been swept under the rug.
Also, the fact that IMO anybody professional enough to do that hit in that manner of shooting, would have known how many people were in the car and left no witnesses.

Just another angle we were pondering today, also some people put it out there the cyclist and yer man the father, could have been meeting secretly, but thats proper left field right there.

When I was just a kid, 8 or so, a man living in our street was hit professionally, he worked for MI5, nobody had a notion ( our street was in the middle of a big rough estate). I remember the media and police etc, and that went unsolved, It still bugs me 22 years later.
Somebody went through our back garden, into his, and shot him through his window.

I assumed that the cyclist was shot several times, as he came upon the scene and was therefore shot at from distance and it took more shots to take him down.

If he was the intended target, i`d think it would be one or two clean shots. ( or perhaps he was shot multiple times because the shooter really wanted him dead.. )

It would be interesting to see how far he was shot from.

sopretty · 12-09-2012 12:11am

Mr.Crinklewood wrote: »

I assumed that the cyclist was shot several times, as he came upon the scene and was therefore shot at from distance and it took more shots to take him down.

If he was the intended target, i`d think it would be one or two clean shots. ( or perhaps he was shot multiple times because the shooter really wanted him dead.. )

It would be interesting to see how far he was shot from.

If either Mollier or Saad were sole intended targets, either of them could and probably would have been taken out more cleanly. Which suggests to me that both of them were targets. Easiest way was to get them together. They just hadn't banked on the family being there. Assassin panicked? Didn't know what to do? Proceed with the hits? Or abandon ship? Poor phone coverage? Assassin couldn't contact anyone to update on the entire family being there - so did as any good assassin does - carries out the hit as he was instructed?

sonic85 · 16-09-2012 6:37pm

any more news on this? havnt been keeping up with things and all the hysterics seem to have died down

ringadingding · 16-09-2012 6:43pm

sopretty wrote: »

If either Mollier or Saad were sole intended targets, either of them could and probably would have been taken out more cleanly. Which suggests to me that both of them were targets. Easiest way was to get them together. They just hadn't banked on the family being there. Assassin panicked? Didn't know what to do? Proceed with the hits? Or abandon ship? Poor phone coverage? Assassin couldn't contact anyone to update on the entire family being there - so did as any good assassin does - carries out the hit as he was instructed?

Or the family was killed as a decoy ? All of the focus is in them.
Jaysus, I sound veeery conspiracy theory-ist huh