Consultant Engineer Overcharging?

Woman Wonder

Hi all,

I've got a €1,030 bill from a Consultant Engineer and it seems a little high.
Basically looking for advice on what the average rate for a Consultant Engineer (B.E) is?

Will try to keep this concise - The Council dug up a private road to lay water pipes. My father has a right of way through this road. The Council did not put the road back the way it was found and do not intend to. My father asked a Consultant Engineer to come out and look at the road and advise on what to do next as it's now impassable.

My dad drove him up to the road, he took photos etc. He spent two hours on site. We recieved a letter from him telling us that the roadway was private ( which we knew already)

And now he's billed us (incl €138 for the photos alone) citing a report he's compiled, which we've not seen. I've not spoken to him yet but I wanted to know the average fees before I speak to him.

Is this the average cost for two hours work?

Any help on this would be much appreciated.

CatFromHue

I don't know the average cost but have you asked for a comprehensive breakdown of the bill?

Also was there any indication of what the cost would be beforehand?

bearnabeauty

Depends what you paid for, was he a chartered engineer?? How big a report?

Just because he spent 2hours on site doesnt mean he should be paid for 2hours, how long would report take to compile? Review maps?

1k seems excessive but all depends on end product and what you requested. I guess engineers have to make a profit in this recession;)

Gumbo

2 hours on site
X hours compiling photos
X hours compiling Report
X amount of printing
X amount travel and expences etc (he may have had to buy OS maps etc)

Not just 2 hours for €1030.
Did you not get a price prior to engaging the Engineer?

con1982

From what the OP has described above, the price seems a bit on the high side. It really depends on how much work was involved in the desk study, not just the time on site.

Charging extra for photos on a small inspection seems stingy to me.

pm sent to OP

godtabh

for people who have replied how many are civil engineers?

I charge anything for €35-€150 an hour depending on what needs to be done

Basic report €35 an hour

Detailed 3d modeling using something like VISSUM €150

also dont forget that these figures dont include vat

2011

godtabh wrote: »

Basic report €35 an hour

In my opinion that is seriously cheap.

godtabh

2011 wrote: »

In my opinion that is seriously cheap.

That would be literally just for signing something. Very basic work

Generally the cheapest work I do is CAD work which is done at around €50 an hour

Woman Wonder

Thanks all for your input, feeling a little less stressed out about the whole thing.

Firstly, the Engineer will get paid for the work he's done. I just don't want to be ripped off.

The object of getting him out was for him to have a look at the road, and in good faith, advise us on what to do next - A letter or a report, whatever he deemed enough to go to the council with.

Our mistake was not getting a quote, lesson learned. However, we assumed it wouldn't be that much work as it's a 150m stretch of roadway.

He called out (60km round trip). Took photos and measured the road width with a tape. He didn't use sight levels or anything like that. I'd purchased all necessary folios and maps from landregistry.com and maps from osi.com - he has these.

Two weeks later we received a letter stating he'd been in touch with the roads dept in the council and the road was a private road and wasn't their responsibility. This we had already discussed with him, we knew it was a private road and the Water Dept carried out the works and are the point of contact there. We were waiting for the results of the survey. The next contact was the bill:

"I refer to my inspection and report.

I haven't heard from you in some time. In the meantime I enclose my survey and report fee.

Attendance at site, Inspection of passageway, Inspection of maps, preparation of maps, Photographs and Report, Correspondence with solicitor etc.
Fee 675.00
Expenses incl travel, postage, telephone, photocopying, photocopy maps etc. 55.00
2 sets of photographs, 46 in each set, 92 @€;1.50 138.00

Sub total 868.00
VAT @ 23% 199.64
Total 1067.64



Bearing in mind, I can't tell you how detailed the report is as I haven't seen it.

Couldn't get him on the phone on Friday, will try again Monday

godtabh

I'd be happy to advise you on the report if you get it

godtabh

I'd be happy to advise you on the report if you get it

BE_MIEI

The price is very reasonable, definitely below average for this type of work. Don't forget, you are not paying for two hours work, you are paying for professional engineering advice that you may need to rely upon in court. This advice will be based upon many years of training and experience. By the way, it can take about two days to properly research, compile and issue an engineering report of this nature.

PhoenixParker

Also the bill is E868, the rest is VAT.
That's about two days work, so yeah, it sounds reasonable to me.

DK man

He should have laid out his stall and explained the he needed to do x y and z and what the costs would be...

I got a surveyor out when I was buying my house 2 yrs ago... Cost 400 for 1 hr on site and a lot of cut and paste report. Having lived in the house I find the floors cold in winter and one of the sewer pipes blocks up every summer....

I expected that he'd be do more than a little look around the house.. He told me i was getting a bargin when I tried to get a better price.. He is a chartered surveyor and runs a well established business in a local town...

Hope your engineers report is a lot more comprehensive...

BE_MIEI

DK man wrote: »

He should have laid out his stall and explained the he needed to do x y and z and what the costs would be...

I got a surveyor out when I was buying my house 2 yrs ago... Cost 400 for 1 hr on site and a lot of cut and paste report. Having lived in the house I find the floors cold in winter and one of the sewer pipes blocks up every summer....

I expected that he'd be do more than a little look around the house.. He told me i was getting a bargin when I tried to get a better price.. He is a chartered surveyor and runs a well established business in a local town...

Hope your engineers report is a lot more comprehensive...

I assume that you asked your surveyor to carry out a visual inspection. To inspect the insulation beneath your floor would require a much more intrusive investigation as you can appreciate. Similarly, a cctv camera survey is required to assess the underground drainage, I doubt if any surveyor would offer these services as part of their normal inspection.

I think this is a management of expectations issue.

annfield1978

Woman Wonder wrote: »

Thanks all for your input, feeling a little less stressed out about the whole thing.

Firstly, the Engineer will get paid for the work he's done. I just don't want to be ripped off.

The object of getting him out was for him to have a look at the road, and in good faith, advise us on what to do next - A letter or a report, whatever he deemed enough to go to the council with.

Our mistake was not getting a quote, lesson learned. However, we assumed it wouldn't be that much work as it's a 150m stretch of roadway.

He called out (60km round trip). Took photos and measured the road width with a tape. He didn't use sight levels or anything like that. I'd purchased all necessary folios and maps from landregistry.com and maps from osi.com - he has these.

Two weeks later we received a letter stating he'd been in touch with the roads dept in the council and the road was a private road and wasn't their responsibility. This we had already discussed with him, we knew it was a private road and the Water Dept carried out the works and are the point of contact there. We were waiting for the results of the survey. The next contact was the bill:

"I refer to my inspection and report.

I haven't heard from you in some time. In the meantime I enclose my survey and report fee.

Attendance at site, Inspection of passageway, Inspection of maps, preparation of maps, Photographs and Report, Correspondence with solicitor etc.
Fee 675.00
Expenses incl travel, postage, telephone, photocopying, photocopy maps etc. 55.00
2 sets of photographs, 46 in each set, 92 @€;1.50 138.00

Sub total 868.00
VAT @ 23% 199.64
Total 1067.64



Bearing in mind, I can't tell you how detailed the report is as I haven't seen it.

Couldn't get him on the phone on Friday, will try again Monday

All is reasonable apart from charging from photos, I would tell your engineer that it is unacceptable. Do not pay until you have seen this 'report'

BE_MIEI

annfield1978 wrote: »

All is reasonable apart from charging from photos, I would tell your engineer that it is unacceptable. Do not pay until you have seen this 'report'

Nonsense, if photographic evidence is required then it should be paid for. Remember that these photos are normally held and archived by the engineer for in excess of ten years. The payment of the engineers fee must not depend on the content of his report. I'm sure the engineer will release the report upon payment of his fee. I would insist on a cash payment prior to inspection for this type of work. Eaten bread is soon forgotten!!

cameramonkey

BE_MIEI wrote: »

I think this is a management of expectations issue.

I agree but its about managing the engineers expectations in many cases. They have been for years getting over paid like in many Irish professions.

What people have to do is shop around. There are plenty of engineers who will work at a better price. Those who think we still live in the celtic tiger era should be avoided.

breadmonkey

cameramonkey wrote: »

I agree but its about managing the engineers expectations in many cases. They have been for years getting over paid like in many Irish professions.

What people have to do is shop around. There are plenty of engineers who will work at a better price. Those who think we still live in the celtic tiger era should be avoided.

Ha. Are you serious?!

godtabh

cameramonkey wrote: »

I agree but its about managing the engineers expectations in many cases. They have been for years getting over paid like in many Irish professions.

What people have to do is shop around. There are plenty of engineers who will work at a better price. Those who think we still live in the celtic tiger era should be avoided.

You pay peanuts you get monkeys.

You are paying for experience. Would you rather a cheap cowboy represent you in court of some one charges a reasonable price based on their experience?

annfield1978

BE_MIEI wrote: »

Nonsense, if photographic evidence is required then it should be paid for. Remember that these photos are normally held and archived by the engineer for in excess of ten years. The payment of the engineers fee must not depend on the content of his report. I'm sure the engineer will release the report upon payment of his fee. I would insist on a cash payment prior to inspection for this type of work. Eaten bread is soon forgotten!!

Unfortunately, you're talking nonsense, to be charging for the printing of two sets of photos, when one set should suffice or placing them on a CD/ UB would be the sensible alternative.

Charging over a 130 euro is a joke. What was to stop him talking 300 photos

con1982

annfield1978 wrote: »

Unfortunately, you're talking nonsense, to be charging for the printing of two sets of photos, when one set should suffice or placing them on a CD/ UB would be the sensible alternative.

Charging over a 130 euro is a joke. What was to stop him talking 300 photos

I agree that charging for photos is not on, unless a professional photographer is employed.

cameramonkey

I think you can get a good idea about this guys charges from the fact he charged 130 for a few photos. This is a rip off and I find that when people are ripping you off in things like this then they are in that zone and are ripping you off with everything. there has been no written report produced and he is charging this for a site visit and a phone call.I would say the only people here that are defending him are engineers.

annfield1978

cameramonkey wrote: »

I think you can get a good idea about this guys charges from the fact he charged 130 for a few photos. This is a rip off and I find that when people are ripping you off in things like this then they are in that zone and are ripping you off with everything. there has been no written report produced and he is charging this for a site visit and a phone call.I would say the only people here that are defending him are engineers.

As a Engineer, def am not defending this chancer!!

Lorgach

You're forgetting that this is RipOff Ireland... What did you expect.

godtabh

To be fair a badly defined scope will lead to a world of pain. If this was a contractor doing a job for you and the job was that poorly scoped the claims against you would be massive.

You have to know what you want, have it documented before you talk to these lads

irjudge

godtabh wrote: »

To be fair a badly defined scope will lead to a world of pain. If this was a contractor doing a job for you and the job was that poorly scoped the claims against you would be massive.

You have to know what you want, have it documented before you talk to these lads

To be fair the scope of the service should be agreed but the engineer should be advising tihe client of the scope required and give an indicatiuon of cost. The cost for photos would appear to be excessive to me. Personally I would expect the photos to be appended to the report and form part of the report.

As for rates of pay and engineering consultants coining it we recently got a quote for a electrician to attend to minor defects in the emergency lighting and the lighting "engineer" was charging €10 an hour more than we are currently charging for director level chartered engineers with in excess of 20 years experience :-(

godtabh

Other than the photos I dont think the charge is that excessive. To determine if it was excessive or not I'd need to see the output

Woman Wonder

Hi all,

I spoke to the engineer on the phone during the week. I told him that I thought it was excessive to charge for photos and a report we've not seen. In fairness, he apologized for not sending out the report. I went into more detail about the outcome of his work and he got a bit argumentative so I said I would wait until I got the report and get back in touch with him.

He has posted out a copy of the report. It's one page long and seems to focus on the right of way/private road issue. There is a lack of opinion on the structural damage done to the road. There are 46 digital images attached, with a two page legend. There are also two photocopys of the land registry maps we gave him, he has marked out the road on these. In fairness, the photos are good and they are of the whole length of road on which the water services work was carried out on - not just the section we use for access.

He concluded we should take the matter up with the water services but doesn't say why, or give us a solid reason why we should.

The scope of the job was not clearly defined to him. I take this point, but we were at a loss as to where to go with this and presumed with his professional experience he would be able to define what we should do.

I genuinely still don't think the report merits €675.

I can email a zip file of the report (redacted) to anyone who would like to have a look. Maybe private message me an email address.

Thanks everyone.

BE_MIEI

Woman Wonder wrote: »

Hi all,

I spoke to the engineer on the phone during the week. I told him that I thought it was excessive to charge for photos and a report we've not seen. In fairness, he apologized for not sending out the report. I went into more detail about the outcome of his work and he got a bit argumentative so I said I would wait until I got the report and get back in touch with him.

He has posted out a copy of the report. It's one page long and seems to focus on the right of way/private road issue. There is a lack of opinion on the structural damage done to the road. There are 46 digital images attached, with a two page legend. There are also two photocopys of the land registry maps we gave him, he has marked out the road on these. In fairness, the photos are good and they are of the whole length of road on which the water services work was carried out on - not just the section we use for access.

He concluded we should take the matter up with the water services but doesn't say why, or give us a solid reason why we should.

The scope of the job was not clearly defined to him. I take this point, but we were at a loss as to where to go with this and presumed with his professional experience he would be able to define what we should do.

I genuinely still don't think the report merits €675.

I can email a zip file of the report (redacted) to anyone who would like to have a look. Maybe private message me an email address.

Thanks everyone.

This sounds like a substandard report to me. One page long? That's a letter, not a report. Any document with no firm engineering opinion and no definitive conclusions or recommendations is a worthless engineering document.

Tut-tut-tut Mr. Engineer. Must do better.

Offy

Map1&2
Maps provided by Land Registry - 1-2 hours required to obtain maps at x hourly rate plus expenses ie phone calls, Land Registry fees. The invoice should include a details breakdown of these fees.
Map were provided by customer - there should be no fee for the customer providing these.

Report on right of way
Page 1 - No relevant information re survey of damage to roadway. Opinions offered from conversation with customer. Were these opinions obtained on site visit? 2 hour site visit equals two hour fee plus expenses. These expenses can include cost of visiting site ie one hours drive to site equals two hours of work so hourly rate times two. The invoice should include a details breakdown of these fees.
Page 2 - Professional opinion offered as to cause of damage to road. Charge for this as covered with site visit charge plus time to type report. App. 30 minutes (maximum time required in my opinion).
Page 3 - Professional review of site, required if you intend to take legal action and is admissible in court. List of photographs shown and a description of them. Charge for this as covered with site visit charge plus time to type report. App. 30 minutes (maximum time required in my opinion).
Page 4 - Continuation of Page 3. Charge for this as covered with site visit charge plus time to type report. App. 30 minutes (maximum time required in my opinion).
Total time to compile report - App. 2 hours.

Photographs
Total of 46 photographs at a cost of €138 total working out at €3 per photograph. Not unreasonable in my opinion.

Total Cost
Invoiced cost €1030
VAT @ 23% = €236.90
Engineers Fee = €793.10
Photographs = €138.00
Balance = €655.10
Transport time to and from site (lets say 1 hour) plus 2 hour site inspection plus 2 hour to compile report giving a total of five hours. So the engineer charged app. €131 per hour.

Report conclusion:
The report is a detailed assessment of the listed site. It offers a professional opinion as to who caused the alleged damage but no details on exactly how or why this damage was caused. From reading your post on Boards.ie I can only conclude that this was not requested. I quote " My father asked a Consultant Engineer to come out and look at the road and advise on what to do next as it's now impassable." The engineer did come out and look at the road, the engineered advised your dad to take the matter up with either the Water Department of Kerry Co. Co. re what to do next. As to the road been "impassable", I see no proof from any of the photographs that you e-mailed me that suggest the road is "impassable". The fee is not cheap nor is it expensive in my opinion.

I think the real problem is the customer was not aware of the engineers fee prior to employing the engineer combined with the fact the report did not give the customer what the customer wanted. The customer wanted a report stating that the road is impassable. The report makes no mention as to whether the road is impassable or not. This is an error on the engineers part but I dont think any engineer could conclude from the photographs that this is the case. Thats just my opinion.