Rape victim murders rapist

Rezident

Fair play to her.

MJT

It would be so easy to come on here and say "She's deserves a lengthy prison sentence" or "Two wrongs don't make a right"

Yes, they dont. But in all honesty until you've been through what she has been through how do you know how you will react? There is nothing to say that you wont react just the same way as this poor woman and castrate him while your at it!
Don't judge her before you've walked in her shoes, although i hope you never do.

Madam_X

Balmed Out wrote: »

Is there any evidence of wrong doing by him beyond the word of murderous psychopathic ?

Class the way some folks are so anxious for her to be just some nut-job.

Scioch

MJT wrote: »

It would be so easy to come on here and say "She's deserves a lengthy prison sentence" or "Two wrongs don't make a right"

Yes, they dont. But in all honesty until you've been through what she has been through how do you know how you will react? There is nothing to say that you wont react just the same way as this poor woman and castrate him while your at it!
Don't judge her before you've walked in her shoes, although i hope you never do.

Doesnt matter how you'd react. If you reacted in this manner you'd be as guilty as she is of a horrendous crime against another human being. Rape is not a capital offence and she does not have the right to execute people.

There is no excuse to do what she did, there might be reasons for her going to those extremes but those reasons dont justify her actions. I'll judge her on her actions, which were the actions of a crazed murderous mad woman.

If it was solely down to what the guy did then serving her time will rehabilitate her and she'll no longer be a danger to society and can get on with her life. But she chose to do what she did and now she has to face to consequences.

Scioch

Madam_X wrote: »

Class the way some folks are so anxious for her to be just some nut-job.

She murdered a guy and left his head in a town square. I think its clear enough she's not 100% with it.

Madam_X

Some unprovoked nut-job I should have said.

mikemac1

Madam_X wrote: »

Class the way some folks are so anxious for her to be just some nut-job.

She proved she is a nut job

Madam_X

Yes, what she did was crazed and I believe it's only right there be consequences for her. I really disagree with "fair play to her" comments. But your and others' argument that there's a strong chance she might not have been sufficiently provoked and made it up is very disingenuous.

I'd have to see a history of crazed behaviour by her to make that call.

RumDrinker

hairyprincess wrote: »

What say you? Was she right or wrong?

She was right.

Jay D

In fairness she should have cut off his head before killing him. Where's the fun in doing that when he's already dead?

2ndcoming

I wish Quentin Tarantino made a film adaptation of this thread. Starring Joe Duffy, Sinead O'Connor and Russell Brand. Featuring Samuel L. Jackson as God. With a haunting soundtrack by the After Hours Brimstone Choir.

up for anything

she says raped her repeatedly at gunpoint at her home in Yalvac, southwest Turkey.

She has also accused him of threatening to kill her family and taking photographs of her, which he used to blackmail her.

The mother-of-two is five months pregnant and claims that the rapist is the baby's father.

first raped her in January, when her husband left town to work a seasonal job.

She said the rapes continued over the next eight months until August 28, when Yildirim shot Gider after he had climbed up the back wall of her house.

"Don't talk behind my back, don't play with my honor," Yildirim allegedly told witnesses in the square as she threw Gider's head to the ground. "Here is the head of the man who played with my honor."

"He kept saying that he would tell everyone [about the rape]," Yildirim told authorities, according to Doğan News Agency. "My daughter will start school this year. Everyone would have insulted my children. Now no one can."

"I saved my honor," she added. "They will now call [her children] 'the kids of the women who saved her honor.'"

"The extremity of Nevin's actions show the extent of the trauma the rape has caused," Dr. Gürsel Öztunalı Kayır, Foundation for Women's Solidarity, told International Business Times. "We shouldn't be distracted by the murder; if she wants to have an abortion following months of abuse, she should have the right."

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, however, considers abortion "murder" and wants the practice outlawed. Melih Gökçek, mayor of the capital, Ankara, supports the proposed ban, saying a mother who considers abortion should "kill herself instead and not let the child bear the brunt of her mistake," IBT reported.

If what she alleges is true and it should be reasonably easy to prove (I doubt he would have kept his mouth completely shut about the situation even if she did) then I would judge her actions in the light of the country and culture in which she lives. What she did was wrong by our standards but perhaps in a country like Turkey where there seems to be a struggle between the old culture and new Westernised culture (happening mainly I'd imagine to accommodate their massive tourist business) then she was defending her honour. Western women who are raped in Turkey by Turks don't get an easy time of it from the police, how much more one of their own.

I wonder would the Mayor of Ankara prefer that women who consider abortion commit suicide whilst still pregnant or should they do it straight after delivery. :rolleyes:

strandroad

Scioch wrote: »

She murdered a guy and left his head in a town square. I think its clear enough she's not 100% with it.

I don't think we can assess anything without the local context. Turkey is a huge country with swathes of very traditional localities. It is conceivable that all that was happening in a community under "honour system", where woman without a man is anyone's meat and if she reports a rape it's her who is punished or excluded. It may even be expected of a rape victim's father or husband to take revenge including public display, only she did it herself having no man around.

Or maybe she is living in a modern community where her actions make as much sense as if someone did it in Bray.

Scioch

mhge wrote: »

I don't think we can assess anything without the local context. Turkey is a huge country with swathes of very traditional localities. It is conceivable that all that was happening in a community under "honour system", where woman without a man is anyone's meat and if she reports a rape it's her who is punished or excluded. It may even be expected of a rape victim's father or husband to take revenge including public display, only she did it herself having no man around.

Or maybe she is living in a modern community where her actions make as much sense as if someone did it in Bray.

I find it hard to believe any modern society would deem what she did acceptable. The fact it has made the news and she's on trial for murder shows its not common or acceptable in a local context. This isnt a run of the mill story from Turkey, it stands out as extreme actions by a woman who had to have suffered mental trauma from what she went through.

Her reasoning may be linked to some honour system but that doesnt mean that she was mentally sound to do what she did. I think if we were discussing a father beheading his daughter because she refused an arranged marriage people would find it easier to say that that mode of thought is flawed (I dont recall much defence of those people in the context of an honour system). And in modern civilisation it would be considering the thought process of someone who isnt in touch with reality.

Whatever about killing him to defend herself or her family, that I'd understand. He came over the wall and she said "enough" and killed him. But the head thing and what she said about honour leads me to believe she did what she did out of some deluded sense of honour than anything else. Which is why I think she was unhinged.

pah

I enjoyed reading this story as much as the arc in Law Abiding Citizen where Butler kidnaps, tortures and kills the man who raped and murdered his wife and child.

pathtohome

The majority of people in this thread seem to think death is a suitable punishment for rape, yet feminists complain about "rape culture" where apparently rape is commonly condoned and excused.

strandroad

Scioch wrote: »

I find it hard to believe any modern society would deem what she did acceptable. The fact it has made the news and she's on trial for murder shows its not common or acceptable in a local context. This isnt a run of the mill story from Turkey, it stands out as extreme actions by a woman who had to have suffered mental trauma from what she went through.

Her reasoning may be linked to some honour system but that doesnt mean that she was mentally sound to do what she did. I think if we were discussing a father beheading his daughter because she refused an arranged marriage people would find it easier to say that that mode of thought is flawed (I dont recall much defence of those people in the context of an honour system). And in modern civilisation it would be considering the thought process of someone who isnt in touch with reality.

Whatever about killing him to defend herself or her family, that I'd understand. He came over the wall and she said "enough" and killed him. But the head thing and what she said about honour leads me to believe she did what she did out of some deluded sense of honour than anything else. Which is why I think she was unhinged.

I am not defending what she did; I am just saying that perhaps within her smaller community her actions made sense based on their values. Similarly, a father murdering his daughter because of honour system is not "unhinged"; his actions are internally logical within his community, although they are clearly criminal seen from the outside.

Scioch

mhge wrote: »

I am not defending what she did; I am just saying that perhaps within her smaller community her actions made sense based on their values. Similarly, a father murdering his daughter because of honour system is not "unhinged"; his actions are internally logical within his community, although they are clearly criminal seen from the outside.

I know your not defending what she did but your defending her reasoning for doing it. In relation to the community they live in it is unhinged and not just criminal. Unless beheadings over honour are common place there which I cant imagine they are given the exposure of this, then what she did was an extreme action based on the values.

The values dont justify the actions in relation to whats considered normal there no more than thinking it bad form not to say good morning here makes it rational to punch someone who doesnt say good morning to you.

Her actions were not the actions of a mentally stable person from anywhere given any values.

Scanlas The 2nd

pathtohome wrote: »

The majority of people in this thread seem to think death is a suitable punishment for rape, yet feminists complain about "rape culture" where apparently rape is commonly condoned and excused.

Aah " rape culture" , one of those stupid terms like " the human condition". It rape culture exists there must surely exist " murder culture".

up for anything

Scioch wrote: »

This isnt a run of the mill story from Turkey, it stands out as extreme actions by a woman who had to have suffered mental trauma from what she went through......


.....But the head thing and what she said about honour leads me to believe she did what she did out of some deluded sense of honour than anything else. Which is why I think she was unhinged.

It could be that it stands out as extremes actions by a woman. Maybe if it had been a man it would have been just another run of the mill story from Turkey?

As for the head thing and what she said about honour leads me to believe that what she did, she did because when her husband and the rest of her community would have found out about her pregnancy and the alleged rapes over a long period of time - she would have had none in their eyes and it could have been too late for her husband to believe/defend her so she took the matter into her own hands in the hope that it would suffice. Sadly, the balance of her mind was too disturbed to see what the end result of her actions might be.

Scioch

up for anything wrote: »

It could be that it stands out as extremes actions by a woman. Maybe if it had been a man it would have been just another run of the mill story from Turkey?

I havent done an extensive search but I dont see much about people being beheaded to say that it could be called a common occurrence in Turkey. Let alone in her small part of it.

As for the head thing and what she said about honour leads me to believe that what she did, she did because when her husband and the rest of her community would have found out about her pregnancy and the alleged rapes over a long period of time - she would have had none in their eyes and it could have been too late for her husband to believe/defend her so she took the matter into her own hands in the hope that it would suffice. Sadly, the balance of her mind was too disturbed to see what the end result of her actions might be.

Yeah thats my point, what she did wasnt rational even in the context of the values of her community. I'm sure what she went through led her to do what she did and those values played a part in how she did it but as you said the balance of her mind was disturbed. But her actions were also very deliberate, she cut off his head with an aim in mind. So that disturbance runs deeper than a flash of insanity in my view. She had an issue and went about solving it in a messed up way as crazies tend to do.

up for anything

Scioch wrote: »

I havent done an extensive search but I dont see much about people being beheaded to say that it could be called a common occurrence in Turkey. Let alone in her small part of it.

Yeah thats my point, what she did wasnt rational even in the context of the values of her community. I'm sure what she went through led her to do what she did and those values played a part in how she did it but as you said the balance of her mind was disturbed. But her actions were also very deliberate, she cut off his head with an aim in mind. So that disturbance runs deeper than a flash of insanity in my view. She had an issue and went about solving it in a messed up way as crazies tend to do.

I didn't get across what I wanted to say very well. I meant to say that her actions may not be judged rational by her community because she is a woman doing what they may consider to be a man's job and that she was too disturbed by the alleged constant abuse to see that she might be more despised because she took on a man's role rather than for what she actually did.

This document makes for very interesting reading. I have only lifted tiny excerpts from it trying to find something relevant to the case we're discussing but I couldn't find too much about rape within marriage. What I did learn from it is that Nevin Yildirim was placed in a very invidious position if what she has says is true and eight months of terror, anxiety and the fear of falling victim herself to the mores of the society she lived in could more than have driven her mad. I don't think calling her a 'crazie' is very fair considering the position she found herself in. Reporting her first rape to anyone including her family would have been a nail in her coffin - the other rapes she went through would just have been the icing on her coffin. She couldn't do right for doing wrong.

The Dynamics of Honour Killings in Turkey - Prospects for Action (United Nations Development Programme/United Nations Population Fund)

One of our respondents in Istanbul, a psychologist, stated that society’s differential treatment of honor and honorable conduct for men and women reflects itself in the situation of raped boys and girls and their rehabilitation processes. Defining the different roles into which boys and girls are socialized, she explained how sexual relations are not allowed for girls before marriage and that they are expected to experience sexuality only to make their husbands happy and bear children; men are expected to be more active.

“Therefore,” she said, “being raped disturbs this scenario for girls. Chastity on the other hand is not a problem for boys. Or, if a boy is assaulted
sexually, he is not considered by others as filthy as the case is for girls. Girls losing their chastity are considered as women who can freely be together with all kinds of men… As a result, the girls approach the society and accuse themselves much more than boys and they definitely need a longer process of rehabilitation.” (Istanbul, female, age 24, worked with abused and drug addicted children)

A woman (married or unmarried) being kidnapped and/or raped
Among the stories told by the respondents, 27 of them reflect cases where a woman was kidnapped without her wish or she was assaulted and raped. Among these, there are cases where very young girls (12 and 14 years old) were raped. Seven of these cases ended in honor killings. According to the people who related such stories to us, rape is definitely a significant issue of honor and the reactions can be directed against the woman, the man or both. Since kidnapping and rape take place against a woman’s desire, women are usually considered victims in such cases. However, the number of those who approach women as guilty in such incidences is also not negligible. In particular, if the woman becomes pregnant it complicates the situation for the family and prepares the ground for her, and sometimes the man’s, death. On the other hand, many people think that if the woman assaulted is not married, then she can marry either the rapist or another man who will accept her. And of course, a man accepting a woman who is not a virgin is usually old, handicapped, divorced or already married. So, the rape incidents which do
not end in honor crimes may nonetheless result in potentially difficult unions.
The statements below show how people defend the murder of a woman even if she was assaulted and raped by force:

-”… if I were in their place I would finish it.
- Did the girl also want it?
- No, it was against her wishes. But nevertheless I would also kill the girl… Now if the whole family is affected by this, if their dignity and honor is affected, it is better to strike it out totally rather than carrying it the whole life long…”
(Batman, male, age 23, left high school, from Diyarbakır)

Kadriye Demirel was killed by her older brother
because she was pregnant, raped by her maternal
uncle’s son. In Şanlıurfa, a female NGO activist
related to us her observations at the burial ceremony which also showed the attitudes toward raped
women. his shows again that it is not important
even if the girl is a victim and has been assaulted.
What is important is that the family honor needs
to be ‘wiped clean’:
“I observed it at her (Kadriye Demirel’s) funeral, she was killed
by her brother anyway and the brother was in jail…Usually
mothers do not cry after the dead in such cases, however I think
the fact that the victim was taken up by women’s organizations
and other NGOs had encouraged the woman and aroused her instincts as a mother so that she started to cry by her grave. At
that moment her younger son (9 or 10 years old) warned the
mother by kicking her and saying ‘Why do you cry after all? Cry
for our brother who is in jail instead of that whore. He will stay
in prison for so many years…’ Then one starts to think about
the young people who become murderers. Families put so much
pressure on them, saying that they could clean the family honor,
then they are forced to kill their sisters. In other words, it is
different when people themselves feel that ‘it is our honor, we
have to go and kill’, but when the family forces the young person
by saying that he must kill, this is his task, etc., this situation is
really more complicated.” (Şanlıurfa, from a group interview of
women at a women’s NGO)
In some of the kidnapping and rape cases, it is reported that the rapists and in fact some other men
from the rapist’s family can also be killed. However, since the people telling these stories have only
emphasized the aspects considered important from
their own perspective, we do not have detailed information on the social status of the families involved and the balance of power between the families which may have played a role in determining
the consequences of these events.
It one such case the family members also tried to
kill the victim to get rid of her and, in a way, close
the topic completely. One respondent related a
case in which 30 men from one tribe were burned
to death following the kidnapping of an engaged
girl from that tribe and then the whole tribe was
forced to migrate. he following excerpt is from an
interview with a woman belonging to that tribe:
-
“Can you believe that the reason we migrated here is only one
girl? Maybe we have 100 or 150 families here; we have all come
here for that reason. They burned these people alive.
- All 30 of them?
- Yes. 30 people from the same family. Burned alive. I was shocked
when I first heard it. How can that happen? How can one burn
people alive?”
(Adana, female, age 31, from Siirt)
In another incident, a mentally retarded young girl
was raped. he brothers of the girl offered her in
marriage to the man and said that they would pay
all wedding costs, all in an effort to avoid gossip.
he man did not accept. hey found mediators to
convince him, but again he refused. In the end,
they shot the man dead. Later, they threw the girl
in a water channel. Somehow the girl was not hurt;
she was saved and then she was sent to another
place through organizations. However, the family
is still after her. he police officer relating this story
stated:
“…this is the first time they shot a man, usually they kill the
woman…But the man…the brothers really tried hard to bargain with him; they said to me ‘We did not intend to kill, but
the girl was mentally retarded, she could not do it with her own
wish.’ But they also threw her… I said when it is so, why did
you throw her in the channel. This girl would not do such a thing
if she was conscious of it. They said ‘we had to do it’.”
(Şanlıurfa, male, unknown age, police officer)
When a girl is raped by a man, since she is no longer a virgin it is usually believed that the best way to
solve the problem is to get them married, especially
if the man is not already married. If the man is
already married and the raped girl is pregnant, this
creates a more complicated situation and usually
ends in the girl’s murder. An example of this is the
case of Güldünya who was killed by her brother
three months after she gave birth to her child. he
Imam who had protected Güldünya at his home
for about six months related to us that when he
was working in the village many such incidences
had taken place and he had helped them to reach
a peaceful solution usually by marrying the girl
to her rapist. In the case of Güldünya this didn’t
work out because the man was not only married,
but married to Güldünya’s uncle’s daughter, and
the woman didn’t even want to see her again in the
village. Besides, Güldünya’s family was quite poor
while the man was well-to-do. Under these circumstances the Imam could not act as a mediator
to establish peace between the families. (Istanbul,
male, age 65, retired Imam from Siirt)

Turkey: Looking for honour in all the wrong places

pathtohome

What if it had have been a man who violently assaulted another man, and the victim then went on to kill and behead the perpetrator in an act of revenge? No one would be saying he deserved what he got in that scenario.

Violent assault is NOT somehow a more serious crime than rape, that is an outdated viewpoint.

Madam_X

Me hole it's outdated. Time was: rape (of anyone) was seen as far more justifiable than it is nowadays.

Biggins

Madam_X wrote: »

Me hole it's outdated. Time was: rape (of anyone) was seen as far more justifiable than it is nowadays.

You mean it was seen (wrongly) as lesser of a crime - not "justifiable" ?

Phrasing error of yours (?) I suspect before others jump on it.

Madam_X

Yeh I mean the notion of it being worse than murder is hardly outdated - which implies that view stems from the past. Marital rape wasn't even recognised in this country until 1990. I don't know whether it's worse than murder - can't make that call - but it's certainly less acceptable than it once was. But it's unfortunately still widespread and unpunished in some societies.

Piste

I think it was a disproportionate reaction and not right that she murdered him, but at the same time I find it really, really hard to care or feel sorry for him in any way. She probably did the women of Turkey a service.

NegativeCreep

Does anyone actually think that rape is worse than murder? Can't get me head around that.

Scioch

NegativeCreep wrote: »

Does anyone actually think that rape is worse than murder? Can't get me head around that.

I dont even know who's saying it is and who's saying it isnt. Those last few posts as very confusing.

Madam_X

NegativeCreep wrote: »

Does anyone actually think that rape is worse than murder? Can't get me head around that.

Depends on the case. If someone was raped continuously from childhood into early adulthood and (s)he killed their tormentor, in self defence or just out of sheer pain/rage/fear/mental instability... the rape is worse IMO.

1ZRed

NegativeCreep wrote: »

Does anyone actually think that rape is worse than murder? Can't get me head around that.

Definitely. I know somebody who was raped and it is something that is always with you that you can't escape, only suppress. I think what that does to you is infinetly worse and more cruel long term.

Scioch

Madam_X wrote: »

Depends on the case. If someone was raped continuously from childhood into early adulthood and (s)he killed their tormentor, in self defence or just out of sheet rage/fear/mental instability... the rape is worse IMO.

Thats not really rape v murder though its years of abuse (comprising of many many acts of rape) v murder.

NegativeCreep

1ZRed wrote: »

Definitely. I know somebody who was raped and it is something that is always with you that you can't escape, only suppress. I think what that does to you is infinetly worse and more cruel long term.

But I think murder has a effect on more people. IMO murder is much worse than rape. At least a rape victim has some a chance to get back to a normal life whereas the lives of the family and friends of a murder victim will never be the same again. There is no bringing a murder victim back to life but a rape victim has a chance to start their life over.

NegativeCreep

Madam_X wrote: »

Depends on the case. If someone was raped continuously from childhood into early adulthood and (s)he killed their tormentor, in self defence or just out of sheer pain/rage/fear/mental instability... the rape is worse IMO.

That's not what this case is about though and there are few cases of that happening in the world.

Scruffles

just a thought but what if the man is mentaly ill himself?
the actions he is said to have done are not signs of normality either.
people may be quick to say he deserved it and good on the woman/she shoudnt have legal consequences because her behavior was not 'normal' but if she is being supported for what she done during a supposed mentaly unsound time,then shoudnt he have the slightest bit of mercy-not forgiveness and sympathy but a bit of mercy and understanding perhaps?
there does seem to be some planning behind what she did because she had planned what she was goinng to do and was waiting for him to arrive,she coud have also done it out of sheer desperation than mental unsoundness.

as for beheading,perhaps she did it because it is a tradition of sharia law and is mentioned in quaraan scriptures,possibly in relation to the scriptures [am useless with any form of religeon] beheading has a historical association with being used on the enemy and is like a final smear of their name and existance.

Madam_X

NegativeCreep wrote: »

That's not what this case is about though and there are few cases of that happening in the world.

Well she says he repeatedly raped her at gunpoint and intimidated her via blackmail.

NegativeCreep

Madam_X wrote: »

Well she says he repeatedly raped her at gunpoint and intimidated her via blackmail.

Never said anything about it being from childhood though and it's also not been proven that he did anything.

average hero

That rapist was a bad bad man no doubt, I would have put him in a jail similar to Alcatraz. Horse-whipped everyday and he would have been punished SEVERELY. But (at the beginning of this thread at least) people are saying the gist of 'fair play' and 'he got what he deserved'.

Why is rape seen as worse than murder? Murder is the final, be all and end all, removal of life. Rape (despite being a horrific crime which I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy) is not as final as that.

If a man is raped, should he be able to kill and behead the woman? No? - because the woman was pregnant from it and suffered great trauma? Well what if someone suffers great trauma from a brutal assault - should they be allowed kill and mutilate the assailant?

I hope the same reaction is given to the hundreds of men who get raped worldwide in prisons daily.

For the record, I actually support the death penalty in extremely limited circumstances, and am not a pinko liberal saying that the woman raped was entirely wrong - she just took the law into her own hands which IS wrong.

midlandsmissus

NegativeCreep wrote: »

But I think murder has a effect on more people. IMO murder is much worse than rape. At least a rape victim has some a chance to get back to a normal life whereas the lives of the family and friends of a murder victim will never be the same again. There is no bringing a murder victim back to life but a rape victim has a chance to start their life over.

You would think that would happen but people either: blame you,or don't know what to say to you so desert you and leave you on your own to suffer. You have to avoid places you are likely to see anyone belonging to him. Your life is changed forever from what it once was. It has far reaching consequences and its a mighty burden to bear for the poor soul it happens to.

NegativeCreep

midlandsmissus wrote: »

You would think that would happen but people either: blame you,or don't know what to say to you so desert you and leave you on your own to suffer. You have to avoid places you are likely to see anyone belonging to him. Your life is changed forever from what it once was. It has far reaching consequences and its a mighty burden to bear for the poor soul it happens to.

Oh i know it's a mighty burden, I know some people who have been raped and that's not happened to any of them. Even if that was the case, your family and friends deserting you, you still have a chance to start over. if you're murdered, that's it. no coming back from that.

Madam_X

average hero wrote: »

I hope the same reaction is given to the hundreds of men who get raped worldwide in prisons daily.

If one of them were to kill his rapist? I'd imagine there would be considerable support for him, yes.

midlandsmissus

NegativeCreep wrote: »

Oh i know it's a mighty burden, I know some people who have been raped and that's not happened to any of them. Even if that was the case, your family and friends deserting you, you still have a chance to start over. if you're murdered, that's it. no coming back from that.

Not a total desertion but more a combination of total awkwardness around the subject, don't know what to say to you, think 'God that's really serious I don't know what to say to her' and people cant deal with it and think some-one else will deal with it better and actually just drop out of your life.

midlandsmissus

Were things always this bad against women though? Does everyone not think its coming to a crisis point lately, where things have got to change?

1ZRed

NegativeCreep wrote: »

But I think murder has a effect on more people. IMO murder is much worse than rape. At least a rape victim has some a chance to get back to a normal life whereas the lives of the family and friends of a murder victim will never be the same again. There is no bringing a murder victim back to life but a rape victim has a chance to start their life over.

I think misunderstood your earlier post but I agree with where you're coming from. Yes, I think murder has more of an effect on more people but that doesn't diminish the effect it has on an individual who had been abused. I think to premeditate and actively go out and rape somebody is a very cruel thing to do. To willingly want to do that to somebody is not far off murder to me. Rape is prolonged and can't be forgotten, it can be covered up and masked, but it's always still there.
Murder is severe, but once off. Rape is the opposite as it remains with you, but it has the potential to change the person and damage them, maybe even cause them to deteriorate so much that it also leads to death.

I never fully understood it and I still can't quite grasp it either, but I am aware of just how far reaching and destructive it is now.
To sum it up, I think it is always something that has been taken away from you and you're always going to be marked even if you can overcome it.
I don't really hold one over the other but I do know that in some cases, it can be harsher than murder.

pathtohome

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Were things always this bad against women though? Does everyone not think its coming to a crisis point lately, where things have got to change?

What are you implying? Rape is not a serious problem in this country. It exists, as it does everywhere else, but is not widespread as your post implied.

pathtohome

Madam_X wrote: »

Yeh I mean the notion of it being worse than murder is hardly outdated - which implies that view stems from the past. Marital rape wasn't even recognised in this country until 1990. I don't know whether it's worse than murder - can't make that call - but it's certainly less acceptable than it once was. But it's unfortunately still widespread and unpunished in some societies.

The fact that "marital rape wasn't even recognised in this country until 1990" gives zero implication that rape in the past wasn't considered more of a crime than it is now. Back when men and women were rightly seen as different with different roles (unlike now) it was part of a wife's role to provide sex for her husband whenever he wanted, so a law against marital rape was senseless and unneeded.

midlandsmissus

pathtohome wrote: »

What are you implying? Rape is not a serious problem in this country. It exists, as it does everywhere else, but is not widespread as your post implied.

Did I say this country? Where did you get that from? I meant worldwide. Every day there are new stories about different issues regarding rapes.This retaliation against a rapist is the latest one, last week there was the girl who got into trouble for naming her rapists on Twitter. Only a few weeks ago there was a discussion about the gang rape of a girl on youtube. It is indeed at crisis point. And before that was the guy in Dublin who chased and sexually assaulted a girl on the street and bought his way to a lighter sentence.

And if you think it's not a serious problem in this country more fool you,look at the thread in the Ladies Lounge.In fact the lack of people thinking it's a serious problem is a serious problem in itself.

People don't think its a serious problem because people aren't reporting because the justice system is a shambles and no-one gets prosecuted.If people keep getting away with it it is going to reach a horrendous extent of sexual abuse.That is what needs to change.The way society deals with rape.

Big,big,big changes are needed.

B0jangles

pathtohome wrote: »

The fact that "marital rape wasn't even recognised in this country until 1990" gives zero implication that rape in the past wasn't considered more of a crime than it is now. Back when men and women were rightly seen as different with different roles (unlike now) it was part of a wife's role to provide sex for her husband whenever he wanted, so a law against marital rape was senseless and unneeded.

So just because there wasn't a law on the books explicitly saying that a man forcing his wife to have sex against her will is rape, then it wasn't rape?

It was just part of the proper "different with different roles" attitudes in this country?

You're a real piece of work.

B0jangles

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Did I say this country? Where did you get that from? I meant worldwide. Every day there are new stories about different issues regarding rapes.This retaliation against a rapist is the latest one, last week there was the girl who got into trouble for naming her rapists on Twitter. Only a few weeks ago there was a discussion about the gang rape of a girl on youtube. It is indeed at crisis point. And before that was the guy in Dublin who chased and sexually assaulted a girl on the street and bought his way to a lighter sentence.

And if you think it's not a serious problem in this country more fool you,look at the thread in the Ladies Lounge.In fact the lack of people thinking it's a serious problem is a serious problem in itself.

People don't think its a serious problem because people aren't reporting because the justice system is a shambles and no-one gets prosecuted.If people keep getting away with it it is going to reach a horrendous extent of sexual abuse.That is what needs to change.The way society deals with rape.

Big,big,big changes are needed.

You know, in a weird way, I think this barrage of news reports of horrible sex crimes is a good thing; I think they always happened, but at least now they are being internationally recognised and reported-upon as horibble crimes, not just tacitly accepted natural consequences of women staying out too late, or dressing too sexy or being too educated or too gay.

Or in pathtohome's universe, too married.

Scioch

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Did I say this country? Where did you get that from? I meant worldwide. Every day there are new stories about different issues regarding rapes.This retaliation against a rapist is the latest one, last week there was the girl who got into trouble for naming her rapists on Twitter. Only a few weeks ago there was a discussion about the gang rape of a girl on youtube. It is indeed at crisis point. And before that was the guy in Dublin who chased and sexually assaulted a girl on the street and bought his way to a lighter sentence.

And if you think it's not a serious problem in this country more fool you,look at the thread in the Ladies Lounge.In fact the lack of people thinking it's a serious problem is a serious problem in itself.

People don't think its a serious problem because people aren't reporting because the justice system is a shambles and no-one gets prosecuted.If people keep getting away with it it is going to reach a horrendous extent of sexual abuse.That is what needs to change.The way society deals with rape.

Big,big,big changes are needed.

Your going on as if its been ignored and its becoming more common because of that. The way society deals with rape is to prosecute and jail those who do it same as every other crime.

We are not at crisis point and whats happening now is no different than what happened last year or the year before. The shambles of a justice system means criminals of all sorts get too lenient of sentences.