unfair requirements for post graduate diploma in primary education??

cathyc1991

I am currently heading into my third and final year of my B.A. degree in humanities of irish and history in St.Patricks college drumcondra and am hoping to apply to several post graduate diplomas in primary teaching this term, including the one offered at St.Pats.
However, i have just discovered a problem with requirements for this course which i was also faced with when applying for undergraduate study for the B.Ed degree. The entry requirements include a 2:1 in your degree which i was happy to achieve in my second year but i was shocked once again that requirements also stretch to GCSE level as specific to demand an A in maths or a D in additional maths. My problem is that i achieved a B in higher level maths but not additional maths.
In St.Marys teaching college in Belfast, which is as well-honoured as St. Pats, entry requirements for the B.Ed in primary teaching and the post grad at GCSE level merely require a pass at grade C for all core subjects, (Maths, English and science). I don't understand why Pats should be any different. I feel that St.Marys requirements are much more practical and I feel that the grade A requirement at GCSE level in maths for St. Pats courses is unfair due to the fact that additional maths was not even available at my school! As i attended one of the top grammar schools in northern ireland, thats saying something! In my school, maths was divided into three levels, higher, middle and lower and a B grade at higher level was considered well above average which again adds to my frustration with St.Pats requirements. Additional maths was a very rare opportunity for exempt pupils and was not common, it would take much effort to arrange to complete this exam.
I feel that St.Pats requirement may be due to a misunderstanding of our education system in the north and i am hoping that it is not merely due to a discriminating attitude towards the A level system in place where maths, english and science are not compulsory. However the fact that any results from the equivilant junior cert examinations are not asked for then i am prone to think the latter. If that is the case then i am not being judged fairly on my academic skills and am caught up in a difference of opinion in education systems. I just wanted any opinions people might have on this and if anyone knew who i can turn to about this? p.s. sori its so long!

ardmacha

I may have misunderstood this, but I take it that you did not do maths at A level. As I see it, a GCSE is a lot lower level than Leaving Cert. So requiring an A seems perfectly reasonable, as poor standards of maths is one of the major problems in the Irish education system. IMHO teachers should have an excellent grasp of the 3Rs.

cathyc1991

That may be the thinking behind it ye, it just seems an unfair system as it is not compulsory to do maths at A level for teaching and that a pass at GCSE level is sufficient, which was what was made clear to me at the time and i know that the leaving cert makes it compulsory to study maths, english, science and irish regardless of which course you intend to study. It was made clear to me that irish was what i needed if i intended to study teaching in the south and with more than just a pass in maths at grade B at GCSE level, i thought i'd be fine and didn't expect to be faced with the grade A requirement again, especially after completing my degree. i know i am a minority as not many students apply to do their teaching down south but i would still like the option. it feels as if our current system in the north then is not acceptable to the irish education system while students who have completed the leaving cert are not faced with any more difficulty in applying to the north than they do elsewhere. Maybe this calls for a rethink in our education system in that maths, english and science should be encouraged at A level for better opportunities or that additional maths should be made more available to all students at GCSE level. thanks for your opinion.

gutenberg

cathyc1991 wrote: »

That may be the thinking behind it ye, it just seems an unfair system as it is not compulsory to do maths at A level for teaching and that a pass at GCSE level is sufficient, which was what was made clear to me at the time and i know that the leaving cert makes it compulsory to study maths, english, science and irish regardless of which course you intend to study. It was made clear to me that irish was what i needed if i intended to study teaching in the south and with more than just a pass in maths at grade B at GCSE level, i thought i'd be fine and didn't expect to be faced with the grade A requirement again, especially after completing my degree. i know i am a minority as not many students apply to do their teaching down south but i would still like the option. it feels as if our current system in the north then is not acceptable to the irish education system while students who have completed the leaving cert are not faced with any more difficulty in applying to the north than they do elsewhere. Maybe this calls for a rethink in our education system in that maths, english and science should be encouraged at A level for better opportunities or that additional maths should be made more available to all students at GCSE level. thanks for your opinion.

Science is not compulsory at Leaving Cert level. Most schools encourage their students to take at least one science subject (similar to how students are also encouraged to keep up at least one modern language), which in many schools amounts to a near-compulsory science requirement for LC, but it is not universally required; I have many friends who did not take any science subjects at Leaving Cert, including some who are now training to be teachers.

cathyc1991

Thanks gutenberg, maths and english are tho ye? its more the maths thats the issue here, leaving cert does seem to give you more opportunities though. For A level, you have to research your university course and choose your subjects very carefully as you only have 4, at 16 years of age when your doing your GCSEs, your main aim is to do as well as you can but overall you just need to pass at grade C. Its' not at that age that you would think or even know which course you would like to do at university, let alone research about GCSE requirements as most courses are happy with just a pass. Leaving cert though seems the better option i think as it doesn't leave any room for any problems like these. thanks again

gutenberg

cathyc1991 wrote: »

it feels as if our current system in the north then is not acceptable to the irish education system while students who have completed the leaving cert are not faced with any more difficulty in applying to the north than they do elsewhere. Maybe this calls for a rethink in our education system in that maths, english and science should be encouraged at A level for better opportunities or that additional maths should be made more available to all students at GCSE level. thanks for your opinion.

I suppose it's to be expected that countries will favour their own education system in dealing with applicants to courses; you can see it in operation during the CAO system where the conversion of A-level grades to CAO points means that A-level students effectively have to take 4 subjects, and score highly in them, to achieve really high point scores (I'm talking say 530+).

cathyc1991 wrote: »

Thanks gutenberg, maths and english are tho ye? its more the maths thats the issue here, leaving cert does seem to give you more opportunities though. For A level, you have to research your university course and choose your subjects very carefully as you only have 4, at 16 years of age when your doing your GCSEs, your main aim is to do as well as you can but overall you just need to pass at grade C. Its' not at that age that you would think or even know which course you would like to do at university, let alone research about GCSE requirements as most courses are happy with just a pass. Leaving cert though seems the better option i think as it doesn't leave any room for any problems like these. thanks again

Yes, English and maths are compulsory. While I agree with you that A-levels are too restrictive, I can also completely see ardmacha's point about the GCSE requirement. All the Irish students that you will be up against will have done Leaving Certificate maths, which even at Ordinary Level will be at a higher level than GCSE maths, so I think it's perfectly reasonable to demand a high grade from applicants who only have it to GCSE level, because it is at such a lower level than those coming from the Irish school system. Frankly, I think it is shocking that the British system allows students to drop maths (and English) at all after GCSE. That doesn't help you though, of course. Is it an option to re-take GCSE maths to get the required grade?

seavill

cathyc1991 wrote: »

In St.Marys teaching college in Belfast, which is as well-honoured as St. Pats, entry requirements for the B.Ed in primary teaching and the post grad at GCSE level merely require a pass at grade C for all core subjects, (Maths, English and science).

So am I right in saying that St. Marys requires all of Maths English and Science?

Your point is that our system requires something of you that is not compulsory (Maths) but your system in St. Marys requires something of Irish students that is not compulsory here (Science).

If I am correct in how I read this, how is the treatment here in St. Pats any different to St. Mary's treatment of Irish students in relation to non compulsory Science.

cathyc1991

ye i can understand that, i think thats were our system lets us down, and yes i agree about that, i know a girl who got 4 As at A level which is amazing and couldn't get into medicine in UCD due to the implement of the A* grade so she received less points, where as the previous year she would have got in. Its difficult to compare the A levels with the leaving cert when assessing students as they are so different. As much as i understand, it is still disappointing for me having done higher maths at GCSE level which even touch on A level material, and having gone on to get the necessary 2:1 at second year required for post grad after alot of hard work in addition to much experience working with children, i feel like i have made the best of my opportunities, yet its still not enough. And it is even more frustrating when it is due to a GCSE grade. I doubt i'd have the time to repeat the GCSE now as i apply for the post grad in december, however i will look into it, although its a shame that i have to. I am looking to apply to coleraine and st.Marys where they only look for passes at GCSE level in maths science and english so i still have a chance, its just now there is more pressure to get into one of these.

cathyc1991

seavill, st marys only look for a pass at GSCE level for the subjects of maths, english and science of which are compulsory at that level. GCSEs are the equivilant of your junior cert, not the leaving cert. They look to see are you capable in these subjects at that level so look for a pass at grade C, they don't require the higher standard of A level maths ( equivilant to your leaving cert), it is not believed to be necessary for primary teaching in northern ireland. We are told that maths is only necessary at A level standard for particular degrees which involve a high standard of mathematical knowledge, for example a degree in maths itself or such things as veterinary science and not primary school teaching.

cathyc1991

is science not compulsory at junior cert level?

seavill

So its not unfair requirements it just doesn't suit you. I'm sorry to sound harsh but there are various different entry requirements for every course that every student must meet to get it. Just because you don't fit in does not mean it is unfair, as I pointed out the system in NI does not make it fair on Irish students in the way you pointed out.

I know you made the point about not knowing at GCSE level what you were going to do in university but Irish students are in the same boat after the Junior Cert making their subject choices at 15/16 years of age which will effect university course choice.

The system is the same for everyone.

seavill

"In Irish schools, science is not a compulsory subject at any stage of education."
http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/housesoftheoireachtas/libraryresearch/Science_and_Maths_Education_in_Ireland.pdf

cathyc1991

st marys also only ask for requirements for irish students at leaving cert level, there is no mention of particular grades at junior cert level. they require Northern irish students to pass english, maths and science at GCSE level, not irish students.

seavill

There has been a debate recently on whether new entrants into primary teaching should have an A at HL maths, never mind JC level

cathyc1991

My point is that St. marys merely require a particular set of grades from irish student who have completed the leaving cert.

seavill

Yes and my point is that the Irish colleges are requiring a much higher standard it seems.

Can you post a link to the requirements if you have it?

cathyc1991

I think the irish system puts too much pressure on students to over achieve, for example this debate proves exactly that, there is no need for such a high standard of maths to teach at primary school level. my problem is that st marys appear to respect the irish education system more so that st.Pats appear to respect ours.

cathyc1991

http://www.stmarys-belfast.ac.uk/admissions/courses/bed/primreq.asp ye here it is, science is only compulsory at leaving cert level if you wish to choose it as your specialist subject.

seavill

I don't think that it is the case that one does not respect the other, it seems the case that they are trying to require a comparable standard in grades, however it was the case that ye are informed that ye only need a certain level for the NI system, but you are not looking at the NI system.

You can hardly expect the Irish colleges to accept a lower level from NI candidates than from the Irish candidates, surely then it would be unfair, if the advice is only a pass is needed in NI then the advice should also be given at your end that X level is required for Irish colleges, it's hardly the fault of the Irish colleges that bad advice is given

cathyc1991

Maybe so when applying for the B.Ed, it just seems a bit tedious to be looking for any more than a pass at GCSE or junior cert level when applying for post graduate level after gaining a degree. Ireland seems to be the only country which makes such high demands on students and having many close friends who have taken the leaving cert, they felt themselves it was too much and less could have done, there seems to be more of a status or stigma attached to education in the south, especially with the attitudes towards the B.A. courses which receive no less appreciation or acknowledgement in northern ireland or the rest of the U.K. My friends themselves would have preferred the A level system when i was saying the exact opposite, however i do sway more towards their argument now.

seavill

I suppose they feel that they are looking for the highest calabre of students to graduate. I see what you are saying about looking at LC results when looking at a post grad after completing a degree, but I would say that it is the education of the future of the country, take the amount of kids that have problems in English, Maths etc. they should have people who are capable in front of them teaching those subjects.
Someone who gets an A in HL LC compared to someone who as passed GCSE (JC) level there is a huge difference here. Why not always push for the best? Why do the children deserve anything but the best?

cathyc1991

Alot of students who are forced to try and be the best often suffer in other ways, mental health, physical health ect, and when it comes to dealing with a classroom full of children, they find it difficult to cope. This is coming from personal experience of close friends where there has been much unneccessary pressure and stress built up. There is more to teaching than academic qualifications and personally a grade B at higher GCSE maths level should be more than sufficient to teach in a primary school with further success shown in other areas at A level or leaving cert or even at degree level. I think thats where ireland makes the mistake of not having interviews for the B.Ed course which take place in the UK. The grades may be at a high level but the social skills and abilities which are necessary for being a teacher may not. An interview for postgrad where you can demonstrate your personality and talk about your relevant experiences in addition to your degree should be sufficiant.

seavill

cathyc1991 wrote: »

Alot of students who are forced to try and be the best often suffer in other ways, mental health, physical health ect, and when it comes to dealing with a classroom full of children, they find it difficult to cope. This is coming from personal experience of close friends where there has been much unneccessary pressure and stress built up. There is more to teaching than academic qualifications and personally a grade B at higher GCSE maths level should be more than sufficient to teach in a primary school with further success shown in other areas at A level or leaving cert or even at degree level. I think thats where ireland makes the mistake of not having interviews for the B.Ed course which take place in the UK. The grades may be at a high level but the social skills and abilities which are necessary for being a teacher may not. An interview for postgrad where you can demonstrate your personality and talk about your relevant experiences in addition to your degree should be sufficiant.

Fully agree there is way more to teaching than academic qualifications, however being capable at these is also a huge part. It is all part of the package. JC standard (GCSE) certainly does not meet that level.

I would have to strongly disagree, a B at JC level (equivalent) is certainly not enough. Yes you may have covered enough course material but it certainly does not meet the required level of understanding. Just about having enough of each thing is not enough, otherwise why bother doing anything in college. I got an A in Construction Studies and DCG in my HL LC exam, so surely I can go and teach to JC level immediately. This is not good enough at all.

Honours LC Irish is a requirement for Primary teaching in Ireland, one might ask why the hell do you need Honours LC level Irish to be able to teach Primary school, however it is a requirement that all students must meet, however outlandish it might seem

Yes I agree there should be interviews, but interviews plus low standards across core subjects is certainly not good enough.

In the end of the day every course has a certain standard to meet. Everyone must meet it. We could pick probably half the courses offered across colleges in Ireland and England and think thats redicluous but it is obviously there for a reason.
Yes there can be pressures in the LC in Ireland for points, however over the past 2 or 3 years I have come under more pressure in my job as a teacher than I ever did going through the education system.

I don't mean this to sound harsh but it proably will, however, for me its as simple as this if you want to work in the Irish system you must meet the Irish standards, whether you agree with them or not.
If you want to work in the NI system, then you must meet their stadards, whatever they might be.

cathyc1991

Well yes i agree theres probably not alot i can do and my best chance is sticking to the north, but at the same time, its not possible to study every subject taught at primary school at such a high standard. Every primary teacher has their specialised subject of which they studied more intensely. I don't agree that such an extreme and in-depth understanding at such a high level will necessarily be essential. In my opinion, its a matter of being tedious and putting unnecessary pressure on students. You go on to college in any teaching course whether that be B.Ed or post-graduate study to gain more understanding of how to teach the curriculum, not every training teacher has studied all subjects in-depth. Obviously at secondary level, thats a different story, a deep understanding of the subject is required at LC before college. But i guess if its the system you've been through yourself, its hard to see it any other way so each to their own.

seavill

cathyc1991 wrote: »

Well yes i agree theres probably not alot i can do and my best chance is sticking to the north, but at the same time, its not possible to study every subject taught at primary school at such a high standard. Every primary teacher has their specialised subject of which they studied more intensely. I don't agree that such an extreme and in-depth understanding at such a high level will necessarily be essential. In my opinion, its a matter of being tedious and putting unnecessary pressure on students. You go on to college in any teaching course whether that be B.Ed or post-graduate study to gain more understanding of how to teach the curriculum, not every training teacher has studied all subjects in-depth. Obviously at secondary level, thats a different story, a deep understanding of the subject is required at LC before college. But i guess if its the system you've been through yourself, its hard to see it any other way so each to their own.

I don't fully get what you mean about it being tedious, not sure have you the wrong word here. Having highly qualified graduates is an attractive prospect in any walk of life, whatever job you want to have after college, why should teaching be any different. Just take it handy as sure its only primary school, you don't need to know much to be able to teach that?

I disagree with not seeing it another way. I see what you are saying, however I stand over my point earlier, just knowing enough is not enough, whether that be for primary or secondary, I know the course I did went far far far beyond anything I will ever need to teach LC. There was a discussion on boards before where some students doing the course felt some of the material was a waste of time as it was never going to be needed, however like I said non of us would be happy, (and you read many threads here) with a teacher who barely knows more than the students, teaching 6th class Maths, and passing JC maths, I would consider this to be just barely knowing more than the 6th class students, its not for a second about putting undue pressure on students, however it is about meeting a certain standard that is set down and not exactly a state secret. I said earlier, if bad advice is given out in schools in NI in relation to what level you need to get to, to be a primary teacher, the whole of the Irish educational system and the "pressure" you refer to is hardly to blame for that

cathyc1991

i mean that a degree in two subjects which are on the irish curriculum should be sufficient for application to the post graduate course and that it is very extreme to be looking beyond that especially to GCSE level. In my opinion and under the uk system, i am more than highly qualified to undertake a teaching course, both academically and with regard to experience as i work part time with kids with special needs and have had weeks of classroom experience as well as jobs in summer schemes. If what your saying is true, then teachers will know barely more about science than 6th class pupils as it is not compulsory to study it at JC or LC. Does that make them incapable of teaching science as it makes those of us in the north incapable of teaching primary school maths? There is the possibility of teachers in the south to have never completed an exam in science during their school days until they began a degree in primary education, so so how would that support you argument that "knowing enough is not enough".
Yes i agree that high academic achievement is necessary in order to have better prospects, or else i would not have made it through to college and succeeded in all levels of my examinations. People who achieve a 2:1 in their degree which is the requirement for post grad are obviously not slackers and are not "taking it handy". I do agree that information should have been made more clearly to students in the north regarding college requirements in the south as i have said in another post, however i am still entitled to disagree with the irish education system and with whatever standards they may set.

seavill

Yes you are entitled to disagree by all means but that does not make them unfair just as they do not suit you. The title of the thread I'd misleading in this way

cathyc1991

Even if i had an A in GCSE maths as opposed to a B, i would still find the requirement unusual and unnecessary so its not that it doesn't just suit me. I feel the system does not make much sense when preference is made towards students who may never have studied science before at exam level over those in the north who were made to study all core subjects (maths, english and science) until at least GCSE level.

gutenberg

cathyc1991 wrote: »

Even if i had an A in GCSE maths as opposed to a B, i would still find the requirement unusual and unnecessary so its not that it doesn't just suit me. I feel the system does not make much sense when preference is made towards students who may never have studied science before at exam level over those in the north who were made to study all core subjects (maths, english and science) until at least GCSE level.

It would be relatively unusual for an Irish student not to study science to at least JC level at this stage. I know when I started secondary school, some schools offered the choice between home economics and science, but even then those schools were in the minority, and the vast majority now teach science as a core part of their JC curriculum; as I said before, at LC level it very much depends on the school, but it most push their students as far as possible to take up a science for LC, so a LC student with any lab science nowadays would be relatively unusual I would have thought.

As for your point about the North & core subjects, I think you're forgetting that English and maths continue to be core subjects for Irish students beyond the JC/GCSE stage, whereas this is not the case in the North/elsewhere in the UK. Bearing that in mind, I think it is only fair that colleges can demand whatever standard they think is appropriate from those who may not have taken maths and/or English beyond GCSE, bearing in mind that their Irish counterparts will have completed at least an extra two years of study compared with most of their British counterparts.

ardmacha

Primary school teaching is not only about academic achievement to be sure. However, primary school teachers are generalists, they need talents and a love for quants, language, science etc. Excellence in a specialist degree does not indicate excellence in this breadth of disciplines. Some people suggest that at least some of those entering primary teaching are disinterested in maths and have avoided it where possible and have to some extent passed on these attitudes to their pupils. It is very desirable for the teacher training to establish entry requirements that might filter out such people.

As to the general point, A levels in the North should be replaced with a leaving cert type system.