Changing Nationality

scudzilla

I've been thinking about this a lot lately and just can't get my head round it.

Why are people so eager to change their nationality, and why is it even allowed?

A good friend of mine is from Romania, he's been living here 10yrs and earlier this year he became an Irish Citizen, i still class him as Romanian and always will.

On The Late Late Show last night were 4 Nigerian Ladies who have been living in Galway for 10yrs, last week they all became Irish Citizens.

Surely citizenship is 1 thing that should remain the same from the day you're born to the day you die.

I'm Welsh, been living here for 7yrs and would never dream of desserting my nationality because something better came along.

If you're born in a country then that country is your nationality.

What happens, say 10yrs in the future, if Ireland is already more fcuked than it is now, we've defaulted countless times on the debt, been thrown out of the euro and unemployment is hitting 40%, Will these 'New' Citizens jump ship and move along to the next up and coming country??

What are your views?

Sir Pompous Righteousness

"I'm American, but I'm Irish because my great great great grandparents were from Ireland" :rolleyes:

IM0

benefits to it

IrishAm

Preaching to the choir with me on this one, bud.

Sappa

Because it entitled them to a goodie bag of social services and a ticket for their family to come on board.

The Big Red Button

But that's gaining citizenship, not changing nationality?

To the best of my knowledge, you cannot change your nationality!

IrishAm

scudzilla wrote: »

On The Late Late Show last night were 4 Nigerian Ladies who have been living in Galway for 10yrs, last week they all became Irish Citizens.

Did the lanky string of piss, Ryan Tubridy, ask them why they wanted to become Irish citizens or how they ended up here?

cml387

Given that you have no choice as to where you're born it seems a bit unfair to be stuck with the country you were born in.



Especially if you're Welsh.

scudzilla

IrishAm wrote: »

Did the lanky string of piss, Ryan Tubridy, ask them why they wanted to become Irish citizens or how they ended up here?

Yeah, he did, answer "We came to see The Guinness Factory"!!!!

Mint Sauce

What about dual nationality/citizenship then OP? Maybe some of these people have claimed this.

oppenheimer1

I would assume people want citizenship of the country they live in to access the services their taxes have helped pay for.

They might also want to be able to vote to influence the policies of politicians.

SocSocPol

scudzilla wrote: »

I've been thinking about this a lot lately and just can't get my head round it.

Why are people so eager to change their nationality, and why is it even allowed?

A good friend of mine is from Romania, he's been living here 10yrs and earlier this year he became an Irish Citizen, i still class him as Romanian and always will.

On The Late Late Show last night were 4 Nigerian Ladies who have been living in Galway for 10yrs, last week they all became Irish Citizens.

Surely citizenship is 1 thing that should remain the same from the day you're born to the day you die.

I'm Welsh, been living here for 7yrs and would never dream of desserting my nationality because something better came along.

If you're born in a country then that country is your nationality.

What happens, say 10yrs in the future, if Ireland is already more fcuked than it is now, we've defaulted countless times on the debt, been thrown out of the euro and unemployment is hitting 40%, Will these 'New' Citizens jump ship and move along to the next up and coming country??

What are your views?

My view is that your thinking is a wonderful expression of parochial smallmindedness. Indeed few published observations on ignorance and coloninial mindset such as yours have ever been made public, you sir, in a a sentence, are a stunning example of why the welsh should never be trusted with either autonomy or independence.

Jhcx

I am a citizen of the world. Not to mention for Somethings u need to be a citizen . Or well for me I do.

syklops

Mis-leading thread title. Citizenship is not the same as Nationality.

Look it up.

scudzilla

cml387 wrote: »

Given that you have no choice as to where you're born it seems a bit unfair to be stuck with the country you were born in.



Especially if you're Welsh.

Yeah I'm Welsh, and i'll stay Welsh, that's what i was born as and that's what i'll die as, be it unfair or not. But no way in hell am i gonna go to another country and choose to become one of there citizens just because it's a bit better than Wales.

Sunnyisland

Citizenship is a legal status in a political institution such as a city or a state. The relationship between a citizen and the institution that confers this status is formal, and in contemporary liberal-democratic models includes both a set of rights that the citizen possesses by virtue of this relationship, and a set of obligations or duties that they owe to that institution and their fellow citizens in return.
Nationality, on the other hand, denotes informal membership in or identification with a particular nation (which is not a synonym for country or state).[1] While nationality is sometimes conferred as a legal status (see below), it and nations are properly understood as social categories, characterised by at least a common language, culture and territory, and sometimes also by a common religious faith and a purportedly shared ancestry.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=difference%20between%20citizenship%20and%20nationality%20&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWikipedia%3ACitizenship_and_nationality&ei=ObdLULiuK4aFhQeh-oCQCw&usg=AFQjCNFwvRagEDFHcVxQgq8Ol_20cKIdJw

Might help.

scudzilla

SocSocPol wrote: »

My view is that your thinking is a wonderful expression of parochial smallmindedness. Indeed few published observations on ignorance and coloninial mindset such as yours have ever been made public, you sir, in a a sentence, are a stunning example of why the welsh should never be trusted with either autonomy or independence.

I was merely asking why people would ditch there own nationality just because something better has come along, get over it

IrishAm

scudzilla wrote: »

Yeah, he did, answer "We came to see The Guinness Factory"!!!!

Il have a look at it on the RTE player. How far in approx?

syklops

scudzilla wrote: »

Yeah I'm Welsh, and i'll stay Welsh, that's what i was born as and that's what i'll die as, be it unfair or not. But no way in hell am i gonna go to another country and choose to become one of there citizens just because it's a bit better than Wales.

Thats great. As a welshman you can probably stay here as long as you like unless Irelands relationship with Great Britain changes significantly. The chances of you being deported are unlikely. The chances of you being deported increase substantially if you are say Romanian or Nigerian.

Also, nationality and citizenship are different things. You can be Romanian and have Irish citizenship but still be called Romanian.

RachaelVO

IrishAm wrote: »

Preaching to the choir with me on this one, bud.

Me too. I'm married to a Dutch guy, living in dutchland, and I'd NEVER give up my Irish Passport. Wny would I want to? Although it's kinda different, I'm an EU citizen living in another EU country. There are benefits to giving up an outside EU nationality to get that wine coloured document!

cml387

scudzilla wrote: »

I was merely asking why people would ditch there own nationality just because something better has come along, get over it

I've always like Men Of Harlech as a tune mind you.

SharpshooterTom

scudzilla wrote: »

If you're born in a country then that country is your nationality.

Absolute utter bollox. Thats one of the most small minded comments you can get, so simple yet nationality is not so straight forward as that.

I'm sorry but somebody born abroad and left there when they were 1, does not constitute as "their" nationality.

Are Ronan O'Gara and Jamie Heaslip American and Israeli respectively and not Irish? Please answer I would be interested to hear your opinion on this.

Ardennes1944

i wish i was born in Germany

scudzilla

There's a guy i work with, He's from Pakistan, he married a Latvian woman 4yrs ago and has been in Ireland ever since, he doesn't live with her, yet has just applied for Irish Citizenship!!! All because he married an EU member!

cml387

scudzilla wrote: »

There's a guy i work with, He's from Pakistan, he married a Latvian woman 4yrs ago and has been in Ireland ever since, he doesn't live with her, yet has just applied for Irish Citizenship!!! All because he married an EU member!

I'm sorry old bean we're beginning to see a trend here.

syklops

scudzilla wrote: »

There's a guy i work with, He's from Pakistan, he married a Latvian woman 4yrs ago and has been in Ireland ever since, he doesn't live with her, yet has just applied for Irish Citizenship!!! All because he married an EU member!

After 5 years in Ireland you can apply for Irish Citizenship.

Please learn the difference between citizenship and nationality. You're starting to make yourself look silly.

scudzilla

IrishAm wrote: »

Il have a look at it on the RTE player. How far in approx?

1hr 3mins

Sappa

scudzilla wrote: »

There's a guy i work with, He's from Pakistan, he married a Latvian woman 4yrs ago and has been in Ireland ever since, he doesn't live with her, yet has just applied for Irish Citizenship!!! All because he married an EU member!

Sham marriage,thousands of them in the last 10yrs.

scudzilla

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Absolute utter bollox. Thats one of the most small minded comments you can get, so simple yet nationality is not so straight forward as that.

I'm sorry but somebody born abroad and left there when they were 1, does not constitute as "their" nationality.

Are Ronan O'Gara and Jamie Heaslip American and Israeli respectively and not Irish? Please answer I would be interested to hear your opinion on this.

Are there parents Irish? Sure they could get away with being classed as Irish then

syklops

Sure they could get away with being classed as Irish then

I give up.

dirtyghettokid

i was born and reared in canada. i've lived in ireland for 14 years. i've had irish citizenship for the last ten years. i hold dual citizenship, but i'll always consider myself canadian. it's easier to have dual citizenship, than to just keep remaining here as a permanent resident, renewing those stamps every year.

scudzilla

dirtyghettokid wrote: »

i was born and reared in canada. i've lived in ireland for 14 years. i've had irish citizenship for the last ten years. i hold dual citizenship, but i'll always consider myself canadian. it's easier to have dual citizenship, than to just keep remaining here as a permanent resident, renewing those stamps every year.

But what's the problem with spending a few hours every year renewing your visa/stamp? Surely it would cut down on all sorts of fraud (Not in any way insinuating you're involved in any fraud)

jessiejam

In fairness someone would only become a citizen in a country when it would benefit them to become one.

I certainly wouldn't be applying for citizenship in the likes of Nigeria, no matter how long I was living there!

dirtyghettokid

scudzilla wrote: »

But what's the problem with spending a few hours every year renewing your visa/stamp? Surely it would cut down on all sorts of fraud (Not in any way insinuating you're involved in any fraud)

well i cannot speak for the motives for others, but in my own case -- i was working here full time paying taxes, my husband is irish, and i live here permanently.... so why not? if he wants to go and get canadian citizenship, i've no problem with that. not everyone is out to sponge off a country.

but your OP is about nationality, and i stated that i do have dual citizenship, but my nationality is canadian.

3ndahalfof6

Sir Pompous Righteousness wrote: »

"I'm American, but I'm Irish because my great great great grandparents were from Ireland" :rolleyes:

Very disrespectful.

Reekwind

scudzilla wrote: »

But what's the problem with spending a few hours every year renewing your visa/stamp? Surely it would cut down on all sorts of fraud (Not in any way insinuating you're involved in any fraud)

The obvious answer being that someone who has lived and worked in this country for years has earned the right to play a full role in society. That is, avail of all the duties, responsibilities and, yes, benefits of citizenship

This is not the same as nationality, which is rather more nebulous concept. As plenty of others here have pointed out

SharpshooterTom

scudzilla wrote: »

Are there parents Irish? Sure they could get away with being classed as Irish then

Well this is where it gets complicated, my parents are Irish as well but I didn't move till I was 14, meaning I still speak with an English accent, therefore probably classified as English by most people.

In hindsight, as sad as it sounds, your nationality is really determined by what accent you speak with by most people rather than birth.

dirtyghettokid

also, just want to add -- i would like to think that anyone who takes up citizenship of another country, is not someone who will "jump ship". it's a fairly serious thing, in my book, to take on citizenship of another country. perhaps it's people on temp visas and the like, who are ones who will "jump ship". (i've heard the term 'economic migrants' being used for those)

Dangerous Man

Ardennes1944 wrote: »

i wish i was born in Germany

Ich bin ein Berliner!

A Dub in Glasgo

scudzilla wrote: »

Yeah I'm Welsh, and i'll stay Welsh, that's what i was born as and that's what i'll die as, be it unfair or not. But no way in hell am i gonna go to another country and choose to become one of there citizens just because it's a bit better than Wales.

What passport do you have?

GT_TDI_150

jessiejam wrote: »

In fairness someone would only become a citizen in a country when it would benefit them to become one.

Euh NO!!

Im belgian, lived there till i was 16. Spent the next 17yrs in ireland (still here btw). I went to college here.
Ive Been working and paying tax for last 10yrs. Ive an irish wife and son...

Im looking at what i cN do to get citizenship because i want to be an irish citizen judt like my wife and son, end of!!

Why do people assume its all about sham marriages and benefits chests?

Maybe, just maybe some of us are proud to be irish(by proxy)

scudzilla

So why were these ladies on the show last night saying they were now so proud to be Irish???

keith16

Not this again. Dey r tekkin our jobss............

GT_TDI_150

keith16 wrote: »

Not this again. Dey r tekkin our jobss............

Not to forget carz, women, houses, spots on the soccer, football, hurling and rugby teams, places in schools and colleges, taking up hospital bed ...

How dare we

Heard 'em all before

Fromthetrees

I grew from a single cabbage seed in a pot inside the German embassy, so I was 'technically' born in Germany, but my cabbage leaves touched Irish soil first.

Madam_X

scudzilla wrote: »

There's a guy i work with, He's from Pakistan, he married a Latvian woman 4yrs ago and has been in Ireland ever since, he doesn't live with her, yet has just applied for Irish Citizenship!!! All because he married an EU member!

So what? He's here four years.

Reekwind

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

In hindsight, as sad as it sounds, your nationality is really determined by what accent you speak with by most people rather than birth.

Accent is as good a shorthand as any and better than most. Where people live during their formative years is pretty important and the experiences gained here obviously play a role in developing how they see the world

But then the whole issue of national identity is hugely complex. What is important to state though is that people shouldn't be put in boxes. Why be Irish or English? It's perfectly possible to be a mix of both, to carry elements of both and Irish and English upbringing with you. Arguably that's inevitable

scudzilla wrote:

So why were these ladies on the show last night saying they were now so proud to be Irish???

Maybe because they're now able to participate as legal equals in the country that they've spent the last decade living in?

Are you so conditioned by talk of 'welfare cheats' and the like that you're unable to comprehend how people might actually be proud to live in Ireland and to be an Irish citizen? That being able to play a full and unrestricted role in Irish society, in which they have technically been aliens for a decade, might be considered a Good Thing?

IrishAm

Madam_X wrote: »

So what? He's here four years.

So, because hes here four years, due him being married to a Latvian, we should give him Irish citizenship?

Do you value Irish citizenship at all at all at all, lads?

Should we give it out with ten Tayto wrappers ,twenty euro handling fee, and E4.95 postage and packaging?

IrishAm

Reekwind wrote: »

Are you so conditioned by talk of 'welfare cheats' and the like that you're unable to comprehend how people might actually be proud to live in Ireland and to be an Irish citizen? That being able to play a full and unrestricted role in Irish society, in which they have technically been aliens for a decade, might be considered a Good Thing?

Watch the clip the Welsh lad is alluding to. These ladies gave birth to Irish born children and evidently, got leave to remain due to that fact. When Tubridy asked them why they came here, they claimed that they wanted to see the Guinness Factory in the flesh.:rolleyes:

Of course Tubridy failed to press her on such a ludicrous answer.

Bollix of the highest order.

Former asylum seekers, who gave birth here before the IBC loophole was closed up by referendum, got leave to remain to bring up their "Irish" children and eventually gaining citizenship thanks to Justice minister Shatter.

Fratton Fred

scudzilla wrote: »

cml387 wrote: »

Given that you have no choice as to where you're born it seems a bit unfair to be stuck with the country you were born in.



Especially if you're Welsh.

Yeah I'm Welsh, and i'll stay Welsh, that's what i was born as and that's what i'll die as, be it unfair or not. But no way in hell am i gonna go to another country and choose to become one of there citizens just because it's a bit better than Wales.

Fortunately for us Brits, the Irish and British governments have a reciprocal agreement where citizens of our two countries have more or less the same rights wherever we live. It isn't the same for Romanians Nigerians.

shuyin1

Probably just cheaper in the long run since visas/stamps/time costs money if you're non eu. Most are forgetting there's a fee to becoming a citizen, roughly 1k plus time and large amounts paperwork, lawyers etc. I've dual citizenship myself, less hassle entering a country as its citizen and more convenient having 2 since some countries have better links between them.