Changing Nationality

keith16

IrishAm wrote: »

Watch the clip the Welsh lad is alluding to. These ladies gave birth to Irish born children and evidently, got leave to remain due to that fact. When Tubridy asked them why they came here, they claimed that they wanted to see the Guinness Factory in the flesh.:rolleyes:

Of course Tubridy failed to press her on such a ludicrous answer.

Bollix of the highest order.

Former asylum seekers, who gave birth here before the IBC loophole was closed up by referendum, got leave to remain to bring up their "Irish" children and eventually gaining citizenship thanks to Justice minister Shatter.

Well take it up with Shatter then. And if their children were born here, then of course they are Irish.

How many Irish in the US have had children there. Are those kids not American?

IrishAm

keith16 wrote: »

Well take it up with Shatter then. And if their children were born here, then of course they are Irish.

How many Irish in the US have had children there. Are those kids not American?

Only those born to Irish or British parents are automatically Irish citizens.

However after Article 2 was changed complaints started to be made that foreign asylum seekers and illegal immigrants were deliberately presenting themselves at hospitals in the Republic or in Northern Ireland in the late stages of pregnancy in order to secure citizenship for their children, a practice sometimes called "birth tourism".
In January 2003, the Supreme Court of Ireland added to this controversy by ruling that it was constitutional for the Government to deport the parents of children who were Irish citizens. In May 2004 the European Court of Justice ruled in the case of Kunqian Catherine Zhu (the Chen case) that a non-native mother whose child was born in Northern Ireland and thus acquired Irish citizenship had the right to live with her child in the United Kingdom. The implications of this ruling were that the parent of an Irish citizen who is still a child would have the right to reside anywhere in the European Union. The mother had been living in Wales and had been liable to deportation there but had travelled to Northern Ireland on legal advice to give birth.
The effect of the Twenty-seventh Amendment was not to immediately remove the right to citizenship by birth but rather that it would cease to be a constitutional right. After the amendment the right to citizenship by birth still existed in law and it remained for the Oireachtas (parliament) to pass ordinary legislation that would remove it. Furthermore the amendment did not remove the constitutional right to citizenship by birth from everyone. Today a constitutional right to citizenship still exists for anyone who is both:
Born on the island of Ireland (including its islands and seas).
Born to at least one parent who is, or is entitled to be, an Irish citizen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-seventh_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

keith16

IrishAm wrote: »

Only those born to Irish or British parents are automatically Irish citizens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-seventh_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

your location says it all....very precious about where you're from? I suppose you hate the idea of "culchies" living in Dublin too?

Reekwind

IrishAm wrote: »

Do you value Irish citizenship at all at all at all, lads?

Should we give it out with ten Tayto wrappers ,twenty euro handling fee, and E4.95 postage and packaging?

No, it's for living in this country for five years. Which seems plenty long enough for me

Incidentally, I don't see how having new Irish citizens somehow devalues citizenship for the rest of us. Is there some finite reservoir of 'Irishness' that I'm not aware of?

Watch the clip the Welsh lad is alluding to. These ladies gave birth to Irish born children and evidently, got leave to remain due to that fact. When Tubridy asked them why they came here, they claimed that they wanted to see the Guinness Factory in the flesh.

Of course Tubridy failed to press her on such a ludicrous answer.

Are you telling me that you watched that talk of becoming accepted, the peaceful nature of Galway, the traditional missionary links, the desire to have the same citizenship as one's child, etc, and all you took away was a flippant joke about Guinness? Well, you probably also thought that the follow up about the weather was serious too

Stars and Bars

scudzilla wrote: »

I've been thinking about this a lot lately and just can't get my head round it.

Why are people so eager to change their nationality, and why is it even allowed?

A good friend of mine is from Romania, he's been living here 10yrs and earlier this year he became an Irish Citizen, i still class him as Romanian and always will.

On The Late Late Show last night were 4 Nigerian Ladies who have been living in Galway for 10yrs, last week they all became Irish Citizens.

Surely citizenship is 1 thing that should remain the same from the day you're born to the day you die.

I'm Welsh, been living here for 7yrs and would never dream of desserting my nationality because something better came along.

If you're born in a country then that country is your nationality.

What happens, say 10yrs in the future, if Ireland is already more fcuked than it is now, we've defaulted countless times on the debt, been thrown out of the euro and unemployment is hitting 40%, Will these 'New' Citizens jump ship and move along to the next up and coming country??

What are your views?

They are as Irish as Didier Drogba. Which is not at all.

IrishAm

Reekwind wrote: »

Incidentally, I don't see how having new Irish citizens somehow devalues citizenship for the rest of us. Is there some finite reservoir of 'Irishness' that I'm not aware of?

I've got an idea and one that Shatter can respect and appreciate. How about we copy Israels citizenship policies? Like them, we too have a large and wealthy diaspora that suffered throughout the ages. Like them, we too are entitled to our own homeland.

Those of Irish ancestry or those whom have married an Irish spouse can become Irish citizens. The rest can get indefinite leave to remain.

Then we can stop the mental gymnastics which creates a situation were a lads Angolan at breakfast and by lunchtime, he is Irish.

ejmaztec

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I would assume people want citizenship of the country they live in to access the services their taxes have helped pay for.

They might also want to be able to vote to influence the policies of politicians.

If they ever work out how to do that, I hope they'll pass on the info to the rest of us.

keith16

Stars and Bars wrote: »

They are as Irish as Didier Drogba. Which is not at all.

I don't know.

He is from Côte D'Ivoire whose flag is a mirror image or Ireland's tri-colour. So I would say Drogba is well aware of his Irish connections.

syklops

ejmaztec wrote: »

If they ever work out how to do that, I hope they'll pass on the info to the rest of us.

You mean aside from brown envelopes?

keith16

IrishAm wrote: »

I've got an idea and one that Shatter can respect and appreciate. How about we copy Israels citizenship policies? Like them, we too have a large and wealthy diaspora that suffered throughout the ages. Like them, we too are entitled to our own homeland.

Those of Irish ancestry or those whom have married an Irish spouse can become Irish citizens. The rest can get indefinite leave to remain.

Then we can stop the mental gymnastics which creates a situation were a lads Angolan at breakfast and by lunchtime, he is Irish.

Yes, because Israel are a fcuking international beacon of respecting the notions of citizenship and nationality.

All we have to find is some third world country who we can collectively imprison, torture, rape and systematically destroy in order to cement these ideals.

For fúcks sake.

up for anything

scudzilla wrote: »

If you're born in a country then that country is your nationality.

Stupid, stupid statement. I was born in another country. It doesn't mean that I am the nationality of that country. :rolleyes:

Reekwind

Stars and Bars wrote: »

They are as Irish as Didier Drogba. Which is not at all.

Wow. I didn't know that Didier had lived in Galway for the past ten years, had an Irish kid and had just been granted Irish citizenship. When did this all happen?

I'd love to get him into the squad for the Germany game...

IrishAm wrote:

How about we copy Israels citizenship policies?

From Wikipedia: "Adults may acquire Israeli citizenship through naturalization. To be eligible for naturalization, a person must have resided in Israel for three years out of the previous five years" :rolleyes:

[Edit: In case you haven't done the sums: that's actually more liberal than Irish naturalisation law, which requires five years residence]

Which is unsurprising because this is how gaining citizenship usually works. I can't think of many countries today that grant citizenship exclusively on the basis of jus sanguinis. That sort of nationalist nonsense has been unsurprisingly unpopular in Europe since the first half of the 20th C

People move. That's life. And when they settle in new countries, as the Irish have been doing for centuries, then they have the right to seek to become full citizens. Only a racist or nationalist (the two are obviously not exclusive) would insist on conflating citizenship with national identity and somehow seeing a threat in this

ResearchWill

scudzilla wrote: »

Yeah I'm Welsh, and i'll stay Welsh, that's what i was born as and that's what i'll die as, be it unfair or not. But no way in hell am i gonna go to another country and choose to become one of there citizens just because it's a bit better than Wales.

Can I ask what passport you have. I have never seen a Welsh passport and I lived there for a few years.

keith16

Stars and Bars wrote: »

Careful now, this won't fit in with the liberal agenda in Ireland. They aren't and never will be Irish. Not now, not ever. Being born in a stable does not make one a horse.

Yet that would appear to be the only criteria for you and others like you claiming to be a horse.

up for anything

Reekwind wrote: »

People move. That's life. And when they settle in new countries, as the Irish have been doing for centuries, then they have the right to seek to become full citizens. Only a racist or nationalist (the two are obviously not exclusive) would insist on conflating citizenship with national identity and somehow seeing a threat in this

Well said and thank you for the new word I just learned.

Mountainsandh

I'm French and living here 15 years (I think it's 16 now actually), married to an Irish man and with Irish kids.
I still feel French though, and so far I've held back on becoming an Irish citizen, because even though I live here, and for good, it "feels" wrong to sort of become Irish.
I'm totally integrated mind, I work and pay taxes here, I drink tea and love digestive bikkies, and so on ...
But I'm still French, and I think others still see me as "being French", nothing wrong with that.

Was a bit peeved off though after I misunderstood the whole voting thing last elections, and found I couldn't vote for the president for example. I have signed some papers to renounce my right to vote in French elections some time ago, with the Embassy, and so I thought I could vote for anything here from then on, but that's not the case it seems.

The only reason I would go through the paperwork to become an Irish citizen would be to be able to vote in all elections here, but as I said, I'm not hugely keen on doing that... yet.

I found it a bit odd with the ladies on the show too, but I'd say if we experienced their life back where they came from, most of us would give an arm and a leg to become Irish, even more so when there are children involved.

ResearchWill

scudzilla wrote: »

There's a guy i work with, He's from Pakistan, he married a Latvian woman 4yrs ago and has been in Ireland ever since, he doesn't live with her, yet has just applied for Irish Citizenship!!! All because he married an EU member!

He must be legally here 5 years to apply for citizenship, unless his wife was Irish which she is not.

scudzilla

ResearchWill wrote: »

Can I ask what passport you have. I have never seen a Welsh passport and I lived there for a few years.

Unfortunately i have a British Passport, the day they issue a Welsh passport i will get one, what's that got to do with things?

Reekwind

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I found it a bit odd with the ladies on the show too, but I'd say if we experienced their life back where they came from, most of us would give an arm and a leg to become Irish, even more so when there are children involved.

It's also slightly different for EU citizens given that we have rights that stem from our common EU citizenship. So, for example, while I'm living in the UK, I feel no need to apply for British citizenship because almost all my rights are guaranteed by Brussels (and a number of bilateral treaties)

Citizenship is obviously more important if you're not an EU citizen and are therefore legally just a non-national resident. It's a bigger step both legally and, as the Late Late clip suggests, emotionally

ResearchWill

scudzilla wrote: »

Unfortunately i have a British Passport, the day they issue a Welsh passport i will get one, what's that got to do with things?

It matters because you said:

"Surely citizenship is 1 thing that should remain the same from the day you're born to the day you die.

I'm Welsh, been living here for 7yrs and would never dream of desserting my nationality because something better came along."

So you consider you nationality Welsh but you are a citizen of the United Kingdom of a great Britan and Northern Ireland. To put it another way one of the 6 flavours of British Citizenship, yes they have 6 different types of citizenship.

They are

"British citizenship;
British overseas citizenship;
British overseas territories citizenship;
British national (overseas);
British protected person; and
British subject."

So it matters quite a lot what you are saying. Because you are a citizen of one place but a national of another, a place that does not not has it taken the right to issue its own passports. When you can wave your welsh passport proudly, then maybe you can lecture another person on wishing they can have something your country cannot give, but mine can. That's why it matters.

scudzilla

ResearchWill wrote: »

It matters because you said:

"Surely citizenship is 1 thing that should remain the same from the day you're born to the day you die.

I'm Welsh, been living here for 7yrs and would never dream of desserting my nationality because something better came along."

So you consider you nationality Welsh but you are a citizen of the United Kingdom of a great Britan and Northern Ireland. To put it another way one of the 6 flavours of British Citizenship, yes they have 6 different types of citizenship.

They are

"British citizenship;
British overseas citizenship;
British overseas territories citizenship;
British national (overseas);
British protected person; and
British subject."

So it matters quite a lot what you are saying. Because you are a citizen of one place but a national of another, a place that does not not has it taken the right to issue its own passports. When you can wave your welsh passport proudly, then maybe you can lecture another person on wishing they can have something your country cannot give, but mine can. That's why it matters.

Yep, i'm Welsh, it's a country, i was born there, that's my nationality, ooooh, shall i go to another better country and change, then 10yrs down the line do the same again??

ResearchWill

scudzilla wrote: »

Yep, i'm Welsh, it's a country, i was born there, that's my nationality, ooooh, shall i go to another better country and change, then 10yrs down the line do the same again??

I am only pointing out the inconsistency in your posts. You say clearly that nationality can not change and why do people not of Irish nationality seek an Irish passport. This when your own nationality and citizenship are different. If you can not see the huge contradiction in that you must be a Turk.:D

As you are a Welsh national and a british citizen.

ejmaztec

scudzilla wrote: »

Yep, i'm Welsh, it's a country, i was born there, that's my nationality, ooooh, shall i go to another better country and change, then 10yrs down the line do the same again??

If you like.

Fratton Fred

ResearchWill wrote: »

scudzilla wrote: »

Yep, i'm Welsh, it's a country, i was born there, that's my nationality, ooooh, shall i go to another better country and change, then 10yrs down the line do the same again??

I am only pointing out the inconsistency in your posts. You say clearly that nationality can not change and why do people not of Irish nationality seek an Irish passport. This when your own nationality and citizenship are different. If you can not see the huge contradiction in that you imust be a Turk.:D

As you are a Welsh national and a british citizen.

How are they different?

IrishAm

Reekwind wrote: »

People move. That's life. And when they settle in new countries, as the Irish have been doing for centuries, then they have the right to seek to become full citizens. Only a racist or nationalist (the two are obviously not exclusive) would insist on conflating citizenship with national identity and somehow seeing a threat in this

That's nice. Can you explain to my the wisdom in handing out 30,000 plus citizenship certs to foreigners since April 2011, whilst thousands of our indigenous population are forced abroad to look for work?

And from looking at the clip the Welsh lad was referring to, quite a few of last nights audience members were asking themselves the same question.

The new Irish got a very eh.... lukewarm reception.

bobbysands81

scudzilla wrote: »

I've been thinking about this a lot lately and just can't get my head round it.

Why are people so eager to change their nationality, and why is it even allowed?

A good friend of mine is from Romania, he's been living here 10yrs and earlier this year he became an Irish Citizen, i still class him as Romanian and always will.

On The Late Late Show last night were 4 Nigerian Ladies who have been living in Galway for 10yrs, last week they all became Irish Citizens.

Surely citizenship is 1 thing that should remain the same from the day you're born to the day you die.

I'm Welsh, been living here for 7yrs and would never dream of desserting my nationality because something better came along.

If you're born in a country then that country is your nationality.

What happens, say 10yrs in the future, if Ireland is already more fcuked than it is now, we've defaulted countless times on the debt, been thrown out of the euro and unemployment is hitting 40%, Will these 'New' Citizens jump ship and move along to the next up and coming country??

What are your views?

You're Welsh? Out of interest what nationality is on your passport?

ResearchWill

Fratton Fred wrote: »

How are they different?

Well that would all depend on the kinda welsh person you are asking. But in this thread it is showing contrary to what the OP said that a person can very well have a nationality different to their citizenship. The OP did not say he was British he said he was Welsh, clearly stating his nationality, I was just pointing out how his passport is not a welsh passport.

bobbysands81

IrishAm wrote: »

That's nice. Can you explain to my the wisdom in handing out 30,000 plus citizenship certs to foreigners since April 2011, whilst thousands of our indigenous population are forced abroad to look for work?

And from looking at the clip the Welsh lad was referring to, quite a few of last nights audience members were asking themselves the same question.

The new Irish got a very eh.... lukewarm reception.

Do you think all Irish working abroad should be repatriated back to Ireland?

ResearchWill

IrishAm wrote: »

That's nice. Can you explain to my the wisdom in handing out 30,000 plus citizenship certs to foreigners since April 2011, whilst thousands of our indigenous population are forced abroad to look for work?

And from looking at the clip the Welsh lad was referring to, quite a few of last nights audience members were asking themselves the same question.

The new Irish got a very eh.... lukewarm reception.

Can you produce evidence of how many certain where given out in that time.

But in any case these certs are given out because the people applying for them have fullfilled the requirements as set out in law. If you want to change the legislation please write to your TD's to ask that they do so.

Also the reason that so many people recently are getting naturalization is because the previous government kept people in queues for years.

IrishAm

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Do you think all Irish working abroad should be repatriated back to Ireland?

Why do you ask?

scudzilla

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You're Welsh? Out of interest what nationality is on your passport?

So i answer that question (It's British unfortunately and not Welsh) and you jump on me?

My original question was why people want to change there nationality (now seems i should have said citizenship), not what nationality is on my passport.

It's just ridiculous how people can just go from country to country and declare themselves nationals of that country after a few years, and yes, i'm pretty sure that some or Irelands newest citizens will have found something better in 10yrs time

bobbysands81

scudzilla wrote: »

Unfortunately i have a British Passport, the day they issue a Welsh passport i will get one, what's that got to do with things?

Well to me it shows that Nationality is not as cut and dried as you seem to think it is.

You think you are Welsh (and for the record I fully respect you're right to think of yourself as Welsh). However, you are seen as being British wherever you travel and even by your own country.

Let people choose what nationality they are.

bobbysands81

IrishAm wrote: »

Why do you ask?

It's a simple question mo chara, why not just answer it?

scudzilla

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Well to me it shows that Nationality is not as cut and dried as you seem to think it is.

You think you are Welsh (and for the record I fully respect you're right to think of yourself as Welsh). However, you are seen as being British wherever you travel and even by your own country.

Let people choose what nationality they are.

Ok, today (Sunday) i want to be Australian, Next Thursday i want to be Japanese.

Don't be so ridiculous, people's nationalities, IMO, are determined the moment they are born

donegal_man

Originally Posted by Stars and Bars
Careful now, this won't fit in with the liberal agenda in Ireland. They aren't and never will be Irish. Not now, not ever. Being born in a stable does not make one a horse.

Good news for Jesus there. This is a question I find intriguing, at what point will they or their children be Irish enough for some of the posters on here?

up for anything

scudzilla wrote: »

Yep, i'm Welsh, it's a country, i was born there, that's my nationality, ooooh, shall i go to another better country and change, then 10yrs down the line do the same again??

scudzilla wrote: »

So i answer that question (It's British unfortunately and not Welsh) and you jump on me?

My original question was why people want to change there nationality (now seems i should have said citizenship), not what nationality is on my passport.

It's just ridiculous how people can just go from country to country and declare themselves nationals of that country after a few years, and yes, i'm pretty sure that some or Irelands newest citizens will have found something better in 10yrs time

You are not giving any concrete reasons as to why it upsets you that people have the ability to change their citizenship after living and working in a new country for a number of years. Why exactly do you find it so offensive and ridiculous, apart from the 'dey tuk our jobs' angle and the fact that in a few years they might leave and do the same elsewhere?

IrishAm

bobbysands81 wrote: »

It's a simple question mo chara, why not just answer it?

If they are legally in other nations, then no. Ideally, only those that want to travel would emigrate. Nobody would be forced to.

ResearchWill

scudzilla wrote: »

So i answer that question (It's British unfortunately and not Welsh) and you jump on me?

My original question was why people want to change there nationality (now seems i should have said citizenship), not what nationality is on my passport.

It's just ridiculous how people can just go from country to country and declare themselves nationals of that country after a few years, and yes, i'm pretty sure that some or Irelands newest citizens will have found something better in 10yrs time

Can you show where I jumped on you I pointed out the fallacy of your argument. It is AH after all. If you want to come on a public forum with what I feel is silly xenophobic rhetoric don't be supprised if people pull you up on it. BTW if you don't like the fact Ireland is giving out these passports nothing but the Irish sea stopping you heading back to wales where at least you will be safe in the acknowledge none of these people will get a Welsh passport, well at least for another number of years.

In relation to these people going to another country in 10 years, well that's ok then If that's what they want to do.

bobbysands81

scudzilla wrote: »

So i answer that question (It's British unfortunately and not Welsh) and you jump on me?

My original question was why people want to change there nationality (now seems i should have said citizenship), not what nationality is on my passport.

It's just ridiculous how people can just go from country to country and declare themselves nationals of that country after a few years, and yes, i'm pretty sure that some or Irelands newest citizens will have found something better in 10yrs time

I'm not jumping on you my friend, not at all. I'm just trying to point out that nationality is not a simple cut and dried thing.

keith16

scudzilla wrote: »

So i answer that question (It's British unfortunately and not Welsh) and you jump on me?

My original question was why people want to change there nationality (now seems i should have said citizenship), not what nationality is on my passport.

It's just ridiculous how people can just go from country to country and declare themselves nationals of that country after a few years, and yes, i'm pretty sure that some or Irelands newest citizens will have found something better in 10yrs time

Why would they bother trying to find something "better". If there was a better country for them to have citizenship in, would they not just try and get there in the first place?

It's not as if there's some sort of league table of nations you have to gain citizenship in some sort of order....

scudzilla

up for anything wrote: »

You are not giving an concrete reasons as to why people have the ability to change their citizenship after living and working in a new country for a number of years. Why exactly do you find it so offensive and ridiculous, apart from the 'dey tuk our jobs' angle and the fact that in a few years they might leave and do the same elsewhere?

NOT ONCE have i gone down the 'They took our jobs' line.

My original question was Why are people so eager to change their nationality, and why is it even allowed?

bobbysands81

scudzilla wrote: »

Ok, today (Sunday) i want to be Australian, Next Thursday i want to be Japanese.

Don't be so ridiculous, people's nationalities, IMO, are determined the moment they are born

Terry Butcher was born in Sweden, do you see him as Swedish?

Shaun Maloney (Scottish soccer international) was born in Malaysia, is he Malaysian?

Malcolm O'kelly, David O'Leary, Paul McGrath all born in England, Ronan O'Gara born in New York, all Irish sporting icons, are these not Irish too?

vibrantblue

Simply for the benefits.

I've been living in Ireland for a short period of time. I am not an EU citizen. I travel a lot, especially within Europe, for work. And every time I leave Ireland, even for say 2 or 3 days, I have to apply for a visa of that specific country or Schengen visa for such countries. And it's a pain. I also renew my Irish visa and GNIB card every year. All these take quite a lot of time, effort and money. Every time I go through the visa process, I always think "God, I wish I was a EU citizen". But it is momentary for me.

IrishAm

ResearchWill wrote: »

Can you produce evidence of how many certain where given out in that time.

But in any case these certs are given out because the people applying for them have fullfilled the requirements as set out in law. If you want to change the legislation please write to your TD's to ask that they do so.

Also the reason that so many people recently are getting naturalization is because the previous government kept people in queues for years.

I can, yeah. Just by looking through the Irish Times archive and doing the maths. Search for "Irish citizenship ceremony" and add up the numbers.

Shatter relaxed some of the old regimes stringent rules i.e you now only have to be employed for three out of the last five years and he seems to be completely relaxing the rules for those whom got leave to remain due to the IBC scheme.

Anyway, I have little or no power. A letter from little old me will influence the square root of foook all. Especially when the powers to be are calling for drastic demographic change in all EU member states.

The EU should "do its best to undermine" the "homogeneity" of its member states, the UN's special representative for migration has said.

Peter Sutherland told peers the future prosperity of many EU states depended on them becoming multicultural.

He also suggested the UK government's immigration policy had no basis in international law.

He was being quizzed by the Lords EU home affairs sub-committee which is investigating global migration.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18519395

GT_TDI_150

What about a child born in ireland to a russian father and a polish mother? Irish?

Or a child born in poland to a russian father and irish mother? Irish?

scudzilla

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Terry Butcher was born in Sweden, do you see him as Swedish?

Shaun Maloney (Scottish soccer international) was born in Malaysia, is he Malaysian?

Malcolm O'kelly, David O'Leary, Paul McGrath all born in England, Ronan O'Gara born in New York, all Irish sporting icons, are these not Irish too?

IMO, if these people were born to Irish Parents, even just one Irish, and they lived here from a young age then fine.

But again, that's not the question i asked in the OP

keith16

scudzilla wrote: »

NOT ONCE have i gone down the 'They took our jobs' line.

My original question was Why are people so eager to change their nationality, and why is it even allowed?

Citizenship and nationality are not the same thing.

Anyway, why shouldn't it be allowed. There are a vast number of people paying tax in this state who can't vote. Taxation without representation.

Do you agree that if they shouldn't be allowed become citizens that should also not have to pay tax?

IrishAm

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Terry Butcher was born in Sweden, do you see him as Swedish?

Shaun Maloney (Scottish soccer international) was born in Malaysia, is he Malaysian?

Malcolm O'kelly, David O'Leary, Paul McGrath all born in England, Ronan O'Gara born in New York, all Irish sporting icons, are these not Irish too?

Nationality transcends borders. If you are born to an Irish parent in outer Mongolia, you are Irish. If you are born to non Irish parents, in Ireland, you are not Irish.

bobbysands81

IrishAm wrote: »

That's nice. Can you explain to my the wisdom in handing out 30,000 plus citizenship certs to foreigners since April 2011, whilst thousands of our indigenous population are forced abroad to look for work?

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Do you think all Irish working abroad should be repatriated back to Ireland?

IrishAm wrote: »

If they are legally in other nations, then no. Ideally, only those that want to travel would emigrate. Nobody would be forced to.

To me that's hypocrisy. It's alright for Irish folk to take jobs belonging to indigenous people in other countries but not ok for foreigners who are legally entitled to be here to take jobs here?

Reekwind

IrishAm wrote: »

That's nice. Can you explain to my the wisdom in handing out 30,000 plus citizenship certs to foreigners since April 2011, whilst thousands of our indigenous population are forced abroad to look for work?

Um, because these "foreigners", as you insist on putting it, are already here. They have been for a minimum of five years. This is not an economic argument: denying people citizenship rights will not significantly affect their right to work and will not make a whit of difference to those who, like myself, have had to emigrate to find work

Instead the argument is why should these people who have been here for years and put down roots in the community not be afforded the same rights and responsibilities as their next-door neighbours? That's something that you've failed to answer: how does giving people, who are already living here, citizenship somehow devalue this for the rest of us?

donegal_man wrote:

This is a question I find intriguing, at what point will they or their children be Irish enough for some of the posters on here?

Let's be honest here. There are plenty of posters in this thread who, whether they're afraid to say it or not, cannot imagine or accept the concept of a black Irishman. That's what a lot of this boils down to