Changing Nationality

IrishAm

keith16 wrote: »

Anyway, why shouldn't it be allowed. There are a vast number of people paying tax in this state who can't vote. Taxation without representation.

Do you agree that if they shouldn't be allowed become citizens that should also not have to pay tax?

I holiday a lot in the south of Spain. Since my childhood, Ive probably spent tens of thousands of euro and spent at least two years there.

Am I Spanish?:rolleyes:

scudzilla

keith16 wrote: »

Citizenship and nationality are not the same thing.

Anyway, why shouldn't it be allowed. There are a vast number of people paying tax in this state who can't vote. Taxation without representation.

Do you agree that if they shouldn't be allowed become citizens that should also not have to pay tax?

I can vote, but not on changes to the constitution and the presidency.

So if Citizenship and Nationality are not the same thing why, not just once either, did those women on the show say they were soooo proud to now be Irish??

scudzilla

Reekwind wrote: »

Let's be honest here. There are plenty of posters in this thread who, whether they're afraid to say it or not, cannot imagine or accept the concept of a black Irishman. That's what a lot of this boils down to

Wow, can't believe you even went there

bobbysands81

IrishAm wrote: »

Nationality transcends borders. If you are born to an Irish parent in outer Mongolia, you are Irish. If you are born to non Irish parents, in Ireland, you are not Irish.

Huh???!!!

That makes absolutely no sense!

Someone born in Ireland is not Irish???! N

IrishAm

bobbysands81 wrote: »

To me that's hypocrisy. It's alright for Irish folk to take jobs belonging to indigenous people in other countries but not ok for foreigners who are legally entitled to be here to take jobs here?

Do you know my position on immigration?:rolleyes:

I have no problem with EU citizens, those of our diaspora and highly skilled non EU citizens migrating to Ireland.

I have a major problem with bogus asylum seekers, illegal immigrants, English language school students,those that partake in sham marriages and unskilled non EU workers coming here.

ResearchWill

scudzilla wrote: »

NOT ONCE have i gone down the 'They took our jobs' line.

My original question was Why are people so eager to change their nationality, and why is it even allowed?

Because Citizenship and Nationality can be very different things. Ask two people over the border what there nationality is you will get two very different answers. I lived in Wales and to be honest I always felt the Welsh had a much stronger view of Nationality than say most English I knew. A welsh person usually stated they where welsh while a lot of English said they where British yet both had the same citizenship.

I am an Irish Citizen that can never be taken away from me, all of the people you are laming about are Naturlised Irish Citizens by law that can be taken away. Each of those people remain a national of where ever they believe they are a national. The Bedouins of Kuwait will tell you they are Nationals of Kuwait, there caters and mothers go back generations living in that area yet they are Citizens of nowhere. There are countries all over the world that refuse to give citizenship to people Ron in the country of great grand parents born there all because they are the wrong color or religion.

There is a huge difference between nationality and citizenship as many Irish Americans will tell you a very big difference.

bobbysands81

scudzilla wrote: »

IMO, if these people were born to Irish Parents, even just one Irish, and they lived here from a young age then fine.

But again, that's not the question i asked in the OP

So then you agree that, in cases such as I outlined, your Nationality is not always determined by where you were born?

keith16

IrishAm wrote: »

I holiday a lot in the south of Spain. Since my childhood, Ive probably spent tens of thousands of euro and spent at least two years there.

Am I Spanish?:rolleyes:

No, clearly you are not. Let me put my question another way.

If non citizens can't vote, why should the pay tax on their income?

bobbysands81

IrishAm wrote: »

Do you know my position on immigration?:rolleyes:

I used direct quotes from you mo chara and to me they sounded hypocritical.

twebb

Someone asked about how long it would be before someone could be considered 'Irish'. In my opinion, its going to take a while to answer that one.. every culture has its own idiosyncrasies and peculiarities... New arrivals from very different cultures have their own, which may often grate with the 'natives' for want of a better word. I would think that it may be a case of how quickly those cultures integrate, and probably more importantly assimilate, that will determine how quickly they will be considered 'Irish'. I don't think it is necessarily about where they were born or the colour of their skin. Anyone who has moved to a new town in Ireland will understand the Irish cultural idea of a 'blow-in'.

ResearchWill

IrishAm wrote: »

Do you know my position on immigration?:rolleyes:

I have no problem with EU citizens, those of our diaspora and highly skilled non EU citizens migrating to Ireland.

I have a major problem with bogus asylum seekers, illegal immigrants, English language school students,those that partake in sham marriages and unskilled non EU workers coming here.

Bogus Asylum seekers can not claim citizenship (unless they have received some legal right to remain) illegal immegrants can't claim citizenship, students on stamp 2 have no right to claim citizenship. If the marriage is proven to be a aha citizen can be refused and if necessary revoked. Since about 2009 it is very difficult nearly impossible to get stamp 1 work permit unless salary in excess of 30k a year and it's not an exempted job which most jobs are now.

keith16

scudzilla wrote: »

I can vote, but not on changes to the constitution and the presidency.

So if Citizenship and Nationality are not the same thing why, not just once either, did those women on the show say they were soooo proud to now be Irish??

Why don't you answer my question? And why can't you vote on those things? Are you not an Irish citizen?

IrishAm

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Huh???!!!

That makes absolutely no sense!

Someone born in Ireland is not Irish???! N

If you are born to non Irish/Brit parents, in Ireland, you are not automatically Irish. That's the law. Look up the citizenship referendum.

scudzilla

bobbysands81 wrote: »

So then you agree that, in cases such as I outlined, your Nationality is not always determined by where you were born?

Maybe i would be leaning towards that, but i'm not talking about young children born elsewhere coming back with Ma and Pa O'Reilly, I'm on about why people with no ties at all to 'Country X' would want to move to country X, renounce there own citizenship from there birthplace, and become a citizen/national of Country X

El Weirdo

IrishAm wrote: »

Do you know my position on immigration?:rolleyes:

I have no problem with EU citizens, those of our diaspora and highly skilled non EU citizens migrating to Ireland.

I have a major problem with bogus asylum seekers, illegal immigrants, English language school students,those that partake in sham marriages and unskilled non EU workers coming here.

What about unskilled EU citizens?

scudzilla

keith16 wrote: »

Why don't you answer my question? And why can't you vote on those things? Are you not an Irish citizen?

Are you not reading this thread, I'm Welsh and would never consider giving up my nationality/citizenship for another country

Magenta

IrishAm wrote: »

That's nice. Can you explain to my the wisdom in handing out 30,000 plus citizenship certs to foreigners since April 2011, whilst thousands of our indigenous population are forced abroad to look for work?

Each and every French, German, Norwegian, Spanish, Dutch, Portugese person I know here is employed directly because of their language skills.
Are you seriously trying to imply that those thousands in Australia could have been better candidates for those jobs?
How many Irish people do you know with fluent French, German, Norwegian, Spanish, Dutch, or Portugese?
And given the fact those people are paying tax and contributing to this country, why shouldn't they go for citizenship so they can vote for who is part of the government they pay tax to?

It's just as well the Americans didn't have the same attitude as you when we went over by the shipload during the Famine.

IrishAm

GT_TDI_150 wrote: »

What about a child born in ireland to a russian father and a polish mother? Irish?

No.

GT_TDI_150 wrote: »

Or a child born in poland to a russian father and irish mother? Irish?

Yes

bobbysands81

IrishAm wrote: »

If you are born to non Irish/Brit parents, in Ireland, you are not automatically Irish. That's the law. Look up the citizenship referendum.

You're the one making the claim so provide the info to back it up!

ResearchWill

scudzilla wrote: »

Are you not reading this thread, I'm Welsh and would never consider giving up my nationality/citizenship for another country

That's not what you said earlier, you said you can't wait to have a welsh passport and therefore no longer be a British citizen or do you want some sort of dual citizenship.

keith16

scudzilla wrote: »

Are you not reading this thread, I'm Welsh and would never consider giving up my nationality/citizenship for another country

Sorry, I had read it just slipped my mind.

That's all well and good and you should be very happy about that. I'm Irish and I feel the same.

But do you not accept there are many genuine people all over the world who are trying to get citizenship in the country they live? That doesn't mean they forget about their roots / nationality.

Again, can you please address my point on taxation without representation? Do you agree that if citizenship is point blank refused to those who are working in the state for a prolonged period of time, that the state, should also accept to refuse to tax them?

IrishAm

El Weirdo wrote: »

What about unskilled EU citizens?

We signed up to the EU and ratified(eventually!) all the subsequent treaties. The cornerstone of the EU is free movement of labour, so I have no issue with it.

We agreed to it.

The rest. We didn't.

southsiderosie

scudzilla wrote: »

But what's the problem with spending a few hours every year renewing your visa/stamp? Surely it would cut down on all sorts of fraud (Not in any way insinuating you're involved in any fraud)

The annual renewal process is actually a disincentive to set down roots in Ireland. Why would I, as a non-EU citizen, buy a house in Ireland if I don't know if my visa will be renewed the next year? Why would I open a business?

I will also add that in my experience, and the experience of many of my fellow citizens (I am an American), your ability to get a visa may be a matter of what window you end up at or what time you show up. A colleague and I applied for the same visa extension at the same office one day apart with the same paperwork - she got an extension and I did not. The most ridiculous part was the fact that when you go into the immigration office, you get 'triaged' first - someone asks you what you are there for and checks your paperwork before you get in line - and the 'triage' official told me I could get an extension, but the official inside said I couldn't. The left hand literally does not know what the right is doing. And dealing with immigration officials is not like dealing with, say, tax officials - you can't really argue with them because you have no right to be there in the first place. It is a horrible feeling.

More than anything else, most people apply for citizenship because it does away with uncertainty.

Reekwind

scudzilla wrote: »

Wow, can't believe you even went there

You're the one suggesting that nationality can only be transmitted via blood/genes (ie, through the parents). It's your view that a child of African immigrants who is born in Dublin, raised in Dublin and has Irish citizenship can never be considered truly Irish. I'm just calling that for what it is

Maybe i would be leaning towards that, but i'm not talking about young children born elsewhere coming back with Ma and Pa O'Reilly, I'm on about why people with no ties at all to 'Country X' would want to move to country X, renounce there own citizenship from there birthplace, and become a citizen/national of Country X

Try the fact that some people aren't lucky enough to move a few miles across the Irish Sea to work in a country where they already have significant rights guaranteed by EU law or international treaty. You'd be singing a very different tune boy if you were working in Russia or the Middle East or any non-EU country where these rights are important

If an Irish person emigrated to the US, stayed there a few years and decided to build a family/future there rather than return home then they would be 100% justified to accept US citizenship. It doesn't make them any less Irish (you can't simply shrug off a national identity that easily) but it is the first step to becoming American

bobbysands81

IrishAm wrote: »

If you are born to non Irish/Brit parents, in Ireland, you are not automatically Irish. That's the law. Look up the citizenship referendum.

Ok, I looked it up. You're wrong.

A person born on the island of Ireland on or after 1 January 2005:[3]
is automatically an Irish citizen if he or she is not entitled to the citizenship of any other country;[4] or
is entitled to be an Irish citizen if at least one of his or her parents is:
an Irish citizen (or someone entitled to be an Irish citizen);[5]
a British citizen;[6]
a resident of the island of Ireland who is entitled to reside in either the Republic or in Northern Ireland without any time limit on that residence;[7] or
a legal resident of the island of Ireland for three out of the 4 years preceding the child's birth (although time spent as a student or as an asylum seeker does not count for this purpose).[8]
A person who is entitled to become an Irish citizen becomes an Irish citizen if:
he or she does any act that only Irish citizens are entitled to do; or
any act that only Irish citizens are entitled to do is done on his of her behalf by a person entitled to do so.[9]

scudzilla

ResearchWill wrote: »

That's not what you said earlier, you said you can't wait to have a welsh passport and therefore no longer be a British citizen or do you want some sort of dual citizenship.

I'm Welsh, have always classed myself as Welsh, unfortunately we don't have Welsh Passports at the moment, if we get them as part of our independence then of course i will get one, wouldn't want any sort of dual citizenship.

ResearchWill

IrishAm wrote: »

We signed up to the EU and ratified(eventually!) all the subsequent treaties. The cornerstone of the EU is free movement of labour, so I have no issue with it.

We agreed to it.

The rest. We didn't.

Yes we did agree to it, our country with our consent signed up to the UN treaty on Refugees. Our country has also passed numerous immigration acts and then there are the EU directives so there is harmony on immigration in the EU. Examples free movement of person and their non EU spouses, then the subsidiary protection Directive.

If you are unhappy with the legislation as I said write to your TD's.

Madam_X

IrishAm wrote: »

So, because hes here four years, due him being married to a Latvian, we should give him Irish citizenship?

Do you value Irish citizenship at all at all at all, lads?

Should we give it out with ten Tayto wrappers ,twenty euro handling fee, and E4.95 postage and packaging?

Hmmm... Can't see where I even slightly implied that. The guy is here four years and merely applying for Irish citizenship. Problem?

bobbysands81

scudzilla wrote: »

I'm Welsh, have always classed myself as Welsh, unfortunately we don't have Welsh Passports at the moment, if we get them as part of our independence then of course i will get one, wouldn't want any sort of dual citizenship.

But this whole anomaly (of being British in the eyes of your country and the world but being Welsh in your eyes) also negates your argument that folk shouldn't change nationality.

Legally you are British, you say folk shoudn't be allowed change nationality, but if legally you could be seen as Welsh then obviously you would... thus changing your Nationality which is what you're arguing people shouldn't be allowed to do!

IrishAm

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You're the one making the claim so provide the info to back it up!

First off, change yer fooking username and have some respect for the dead.

Secondly, read the thread, I already did link to the relevant referendum.

Anyway;

If either of your parents was an Irish citizen at the time of your birth, then you are automatically an Irish citizen, irrespective of your place of birth.

So, if you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen who was himself or herself born in Ireland, then you are an Irish citizen.

If your parent derived Irish citizenship in another manner, for example, through marriage, adoption or naturalisation, further information can be obtained from your nearest Irish embassy or consulate.

Other foreign national parents of children born in the island of Ireland on or after 1 January 2005 must prove that they have a genuine link to Ireland. This will be evidenced by their having 3 out of the previous 4 years reckonable residence in the island of Ireland immediately before the birth of the child. On proof of a genuine link to Ireland their child will be entitled to Irish citizenship and can apply for a certificate of nationality - see 'How to apply' below.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

djflawless

Was thinking of moving to poland or 1 or those european countrys to becoming a resident, then riding social welfare here for everything 'foreign nationals' are entitled to...foolproof the last 6-10 years

ResearchWill

scudzilla wrote: »

I'm Welsh, have always classed myself as Welsh, unfortunately we don't have Welsh Passports at the moment, if we get them as part of our independence then of course i will get one, wouldn't want any sort of dual citizenship.

Yes you are welsh but also a British Citizen, you have accepted that fact. Then you said:

"Are you not reading this thread, I'm Welsh and would never consider giving up my nationality/citizenship for another country."

You must give up you British Citizenship if you acquire Welsh citizenship, if you can't see how this matters in light of your statements then I no longer think your a Turk you must be a Jack.

IrishAm

ResearchWill wrote: »

Yes we did agree to it, our country with our consent signed up to the UN treaty on Refugees. Our country has also passed numerous immigration acts and then there are the EU directives so there is harmony on immigration in the EU. Examples free movement of person and their non EU spouses, then the subsidiary protection Directive.

Eh, EU immigration is the only one we actually had a democratic vote on.

ResearchWill wrote: »

If you are unhappy with the legislation as I said write to your TD's.

Listen, I realise that you earn your coin from the immigration industry, so I shall politely decline your suggestion.

bobbysands81

IrishAm wrote: »

Secondly, read the thread, I already did link to the relevant referendum.

Anyway;





http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

Which is completely different to what you said earlier.

Madam_X

Off ya go, you're in the EU. I associate Eastern Europeans with bloody hard work though.

bobbysands81

ResearchWill wrote: »

Yes you are welsh but also a British Citizen, you have accepted that fact. Then you said:

"Are you not reading this thread, I'm Welsh and would never consider giving up my nationality/citizenship for another country."

You must give up you British Citizenship if you acquire Welsh citizenship, if you can't see how this matters in light of your statements then I no longer think your a Turk you must be a Jack.

Agreed. Said more or less same thing in post #130.

keith16

Madam_X wrote: »

Off ya go, you're in the EU. I associate Eastern Europeans with bloody hard work though.

And being sexy

ResearchWill

IrishAm wrote: »

First off, change yer fooking username and have some respect for the dead.

Secondly, read the thread, I already did link to the relevant referendum.

Anyway;





http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

This is I reply to you response to bobbysands81, as names go and considering the topic should your name be welsham oops was tired and on iPhone wrong post.

El Weirdo

ResearchWill wrote: »

Yes we did agree to it, our country with our consent signed up to the UN treaty on Refugees. Our country has also passed numerous immigration acts and then there are the EU directives so there is harmony on immigration in the EU. Examples free movement of person and their non EU spouses, then the subsidiary protection Directive.

If you are unhappy with the legislation as I said write to your TD's.

Not to mention the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which states:

Article 15.

• (1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
• (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

IrishAm

southsiderosie wrote: »

The annual renewal process is actually a disincentive to set down roots in Ireland. Why would I, as a non-EU citizen, buy a house in Ireland if I don't know if my visa will be renewed the next year? Why would I open a business?

Why would we, as Europeans, care?

We are suffering with an unemployment crisis here. If you are highly skilled in a skill we are lacking, welcome. If not, sorry.

Reekwind

djflawless wrote: »

Was thinking of moving to poland or 1 or those european countrys to becoming a resident, then riding social welfare here for everything 'foreign nationals' are entitled to...foolproof the last 6-10 years

Don't let the door hit you on the way out. I'm sure the Poles are smart enough not to generalise that all Irish are freeloading wasters on the basis of your one example

But hey, it looks like we've arrived at the point where everyone gives up the pretence of talking about citizenship/national identity and starts railing against supposed illegal immigrants or freeloaders. Dey tuk ma job!

ResearchWill

IrishAm wrote: »

Eh, EU immigration is the only one we actually had a democratic vote on.



Listen, I realise that you earn your coin from the immigration industry, so I shall politely decline your suggestion.

Can you please point out when I voted on either the Eau directive on free movement or the EU directive on subsidiary protection.

Yes I act in the area of immigration Law. What has that got todo with you writing to your TD to say you are unhappy with the current legislation in the country.

IrishAm

El Weirdo wrote: »

Not to mention the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which states:

Ninety per cent of asylum seekers in Ireland are bogus.

"A small but well placed minority of commentators have sought to create the impression that Ireland's treatment of asylum seekers is harsh and unfair. They have consistently concealed the real facts from the Irish people. Moreover, they have sought to create the impression that anyone who points out the true situation is engaging in political racism. They hint at international comparisons which do not exist.
They refuse to address the very large abuse of asylum protection in Ireland. They claim to believe that it is wrong to point out what is happening lest it create prejudice against genuine asylum seekers. They are engaging in a form of verbal intimidation of those who would tell the truth."

Most asylum applications (more than 90%) are found not to meet the criteria for refugee protection.

That is an official government document, if you doubt the claims and figures, write to your local TD to complain.:)

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/PR07000171

ResearchWill

IrishAm wrote: »

Why would we, as Europeans, care?

We are suffering with an unemployment crisis here. If you are highly skilled in a skill we are lacking, welcome. If not, sorry.

God for a guy with very struck views on nationality what are you Welsh, British or European, because currently you have one nationality Welsh maybe two British and two citizenships British and European.

IrishAm

ResearchWill wrote: »

Yes I act in the area of immigration Law. What has that got todo with you writing to your TD to say you are unhappy with the current legislation in the country.

You have a vested interest, pal. Immigration law is a lucrative business. One that I fund and you live handsomely from.

scudzilla

ResearchWill wrote: »

God for a guy with very struck views on nationality what are you Welsh, British or European, because currently you have one nationality Welsh maybe two British and two citizenships British and European.

Ehhh? Are you actually reading this thread or just typing crap? IrishAm has not once said he's Welsh!!

keith16

ResearchWill wrote: »

Can you please point out when I voted on either the Eau directive on free movement or the EU directive on subsidiary protection.

Yes I act in the area of immigration Law. What has that got todo with you writing to your TD to say you are unhappy with the current legislation in the country.

Dear Mr. Shatter.

Stop giving the bleedin' fordieners citizenship. There's not enuf fur all of us. Stop it.

Hey, since you are Jewish, you would like de Izraeli policy where they don't give citizenship to de fordieners. Izrael is the bleedin same as us. Israel for Israelis only, ya know what I mean Mr. Shatter?

Kind Regards,

Fúckin Damo

IrishAm

ResearchWill wrote: »

God for a guy with very struck views on nationality what are you Welsh, British or European, because currently you have one nationality Welsh maybe two British and two citizenships British and European.

I am Irish and an indigenous European.

I've only been to Wales once.

ResearchWill

IrishAm wrote: »

Ninety per cent of asylum seekers in Ireland are bogus.





That is an official government document, if you doubt the claims and figures, write to your local TD to complain.:)

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/PR07000171

If you have read any of my other posts you will see I agree that a huge number of Asylum application are bogus, you will all see I have repeatedly called for serious reform in this area. I also think its a total shame that liars are rewarded by this state who then take years to decided to deport and then let people sit here for further years before trying to actually deporting. That is unfair to genuine asylum seekers and to this state, but unlike you I have actually said thisto TD'. A system could be put in place that could decide Asylum in most cases a matter of months and have bogus asylum seekers back home within one year of arriving. This would save millions. In any case asylum applications have fallen from 12000 a year to less than 2000 and still falling.

michelleling

scudzilla wrote: »

I've been thinking about this a lot lately and just can't get my head round it.

Why are people so eager to change their nationality, and why is it even allowed?

A good friend of mine is from Romania, he's been living here 10yrs and earlier this year he became an Irish Citizen, i still class him as Romanian and always will.

On The Late Late Show last night were 4 Nigerian Ladies who have been living in Galway for 10yrs, last week they all became Irish Citizens.

Surely citizenship is 1 thing that should remain the same from the day you're born to the day you die.

I'm Welsh, been living here for 7yrs and would never dream of desserting my nationality because something better came along.

If you're born in a country then that country is your nationality.

What happens, say 10yrs in the future, if Ireland is already more fcuked than it is now, we've defaulted countless times on the debt, been thrown out of the euro and unemployment is hitting 40%, Will these 'New' Citizens jump ship and move along to the next up and coming country??

What are your views?

Those ladies from Nigeria for example have absolutely nothing to lose but everything to gain. They are still Nigerian citizens as well as Irish. (Dual Citizenship)

So note that they dont gave up their citizenship to Irish.

Honestly, I understand where you are coming from, but people like you obviously have never lived outside Ireland. or have you?

You will never understand what it is like to grow, have your family, business and live your life in a different country other than yours. It is not bad for that country to welcome them as their through Citizenship, which simply gives them full access to everything like Irish Citizens