Whose responsibility

Neadine

Just a query. I live in a rented apartment.
Now I read the thread here about the landlord being responsible for changing light bulbs, etc!! Anyway, when it comes to all that sort of mundane stuff I am more than capable of fending for myself.
Now, my apartment is upstairs, and the outside of the windows have been pretty manky since I moved in. If it's my responsibility then I have no problem forking out to have them cleaned, but if it's up to the landlord then....

djimi

AFAIK its up to the management company to clean the outside of high windows in a complex, but I could be wrong about that...

pm1977x

it should say in your lease

Neadine

djimi wrote: »

AFAIK its up to the management company to clean the outside of high windows in a complex, but I could be wrong about that...

I have never had any contact from these mythical people, and even though the letting agent mentioned something about them taking care of communal areas; stairs/hallways, it's never happened.

peter_dublin

Neadine wrote: »

I have never had any contact from these mythical people, and even though the letting agent mentioned something about them taking care of communal areas; stairs/hallways, it's never happened.

Nor should you. The contract with respect to the management company is between your landlord and the Management Company, neither you nor the letting agent have any relationship with them. Your query should be directed to the landlord via the Letting Agent.

The Big Red Button

peter_dublin wrote: »

Nor should you. The contract with respect to the management company is between your landlord and the Management Company, neither you nor the letting agent have any relationship with them. Your query should be directed to the landlord via the Letting Agent.

If you're a tenant, then going

Tenant <-> Letting Agent <-> Landlord <-> Management Company

is a bit much! Especially for minor issues.

In my experience, while I've rented through a letting agent, I've been given the MCo details on moving in, and deal directly with them when necessary.

silja

Agree the outside of windows in an apartment building are not for you to clean- ie if you can clean the windows earily yourself, you should do do. But you are not responsible if special equipment is needed.

How long since you moved in? In our block, the windows get cleaned twice a year so yeah, they can get quite manky towards the end of the 6 months.

peter_dublin

silja wrote: »

Agree the outside of windows in an apartment building are not for you to clean- ie if you can clean the windows earily yourself, you should do do. But you are not responsible if special equipment is needed.

How long since you moved in? In our block, the windows get cleaned twice a year so yeah, they can get quite manky towards the end of the 6 months.

Exactly, I would say this is the norm and we operate the same, twice yearly, the OP should also note that insurance wise it would be doubtful if they are covered if they start cleaning windows and have an accident such as falling off a chair even if you ground floor, a good management company is there to run the place and a fixed schedule of works such as windows cleaning is part of it, when a lot of the time its directors recieve no compensation (our case anyway) they really don't want to start taking requests direct from tenents etc, today I had a request to chop down a tree as it was "ugly" :-) and another one which will "keep growing". The landlord should be aware of the last time the windows were cleaned and thus when they are due again and if necessary contacting the agent/management company.

I would make one point, we are a small 12 unit development so I know nearly all the tenants to see and say hello to and even a brief chat so I do know them but they also know requests have to go through official channels for records etc, although I still get the odd request or tree.

Neadine

Ok, I have never been given any information about the 'management company', it was once mentioned by the letting agent when I first viewed the apartment when I asked about the cleaning of communal areas etc. At the time I was told the management company took care of this. My neighbour cleans hall/stairs regularly and I have swept/mopped it once or twice, no one else has ever cleaned it, that I am aware of.
I have been living here almost a year and in that time the windows have NEVER been cleaned. If I were living on the ground floor I wouldn't have an issue going out and cleaning them, but external upstairs windows.... no thanks.
There are only 4 units in the block and all are privately owned. When I initially moved in there were a few minor things, leaky tap kinda stuff, that I contacted letting agent about. They a maintenance guy my landlord uses (have never met LL but apparently he has a number of properties that this guy looks after). Anyway, he gave me his contact number so I could call him directly if there were any further problems. (yess, I've been waffling, it's Sunday night...)

peter_dublin

Neadine wrote: »

Ok, I have never been given any information about the 'management company', it was once mentioned by the letting agent when I first viewed the apartment when I asked about the cleaning of communal areas etc. At the time I was told the management company took care of this. My neighbour cleans hall/stairs regularly and I have swept/mopped it once or twice, no one else has ever cleaned it, that I am aware of.
I have been living here almost a year and in that time the windows have NEVER been cleaned. If I were living on the ground floor I wouldn't have an issue going out and cleaning them, but external upstairs windows.... no thanks.
There are only 4 units in the block and all are privately owned. When I initially moved in there were a few minor things, leaky tap kinda stuff, that I contacted letting agent about. They a maintenance guy my landlord uses (have never met LL but apparently he has a number of properties that this guy looks after). Anyway, he gave me his contact number so I could call him directly if there were any further problems. (yess, I've been waffling, it's Sunday night...)

Hi. A strange setup, you nor your neighbours should be cleaning anything at all, the four owners / all owners should be paying fees to the management company whom then arrange "regular" cleaning of the common areas and usually bi annual window cleaning as this is exactly what the fee is for in addition to insurance and other maintainence etc.

Internally within the apartment would be the landlords rsponsibility so the letting agent was right in how it was handled. Outside of your apartment such as common hallways, gardens and the building themselves are owned and managed by the management company which is in turn owned by the unit owners who contribute to its costs which include cleaning. Seems to be a poorly run develeopment, I would raise it with the landloard / agent but at the end of the day the only persons who can get the windows cleaned is the Management Company.

Neadine

peter_dublin wrote: »

Hi. A strange setup, you nor your neighbours should be cleaning anything at all, the four owners / all owners should be paying fees to the management company whom then arrange "regular" cleaning of the common areas and usually bi annual window cleaning as this is exactly what the fee is for in addition to insurance and other maintainence etc.

Internally within the apartment would be the landlords rsponsibility so the letting agent was right in how it was handled. Outside of your apartment such as common hallways, gardens and the building themselves are owned and managed by the management company which is in turn owned by the unit owners who contribute to its costs which include cleaning. Seems to be a poorly run develeopment, I would raise it with the landloard / agent but at the end of the day the only persons who can get the windows cleaned is the Management Company.

Cool, thanks for your advice. Have never actually met landlord, doesn't live locally. But will contact the letting agent during the week. I have a huge issue with spiders at the moment, and there are lots of webs and stuff on the outside of the windows.

peter_dublin

Neadine wrote: »

Cool, thanks for your advice. Have never actually met landlord, doesn't live locally. But will contact the letting agent during the week. I have a huge issue with spiders at the moment, and there are lots of webs and stuff on the outside of the windows.

No problem, pehaps leave out the part about spiders :-), more applicable is the fact that basicaly it seems the MGT co are not performing basic tasks of upkeep.


It isn't clear if the neighbour cleaning the hall is a tenent or owner but if an owner I would 100% query it with them as to why there is no one contracted in to perform the task, either way you nor your neighbours should be performing any cleaning duties with respect to the common areas or windows unless contracted to do so.

It could be that the neighbour is an owner and has agreed to undertake such cleaing tasks, stange but I have seen it in a bid to reduce their annual fees.

Let us know how you get on but don't do anymore cleaning, your only facilitating the management companies failures and your insurance situtuation is very questionable, i.e. it would be I was bringing in my new mop and fell rather than I was mopping the stairs :-)

Neadine

peter_dublin wrote: »

No problem, pehaps leave out the part about spiders :-), more applicable is the fact that basicaly it seems the MGT co are not performing basic tasks of upkeep.


It isn't clear if the neighbour cleaning the hall is a tenent or owner but if an owner I would 100% query it with them as to why there is no one contracted in to perform the task, either way you nor your neighbours should be performing any cleaning duties with respect to the common areas or windows unless contracted to do so.

It could be that the neighbour is an owner and has agreed to undertake such cleaing tasks, stange but I have seen it in a bid to reduce their annual fees.

Let us know how you get on but don't do anymore cleaning, your only facilitating the management companies failures and your insurance situtuation is very questionable, i.e. it would be I was bringing in my new mop and fell rather than I was mopping the stairs :-)

Like I said, I have only swept/mopped a very few times since moving in, as I was lead to believe this was someone else's responsibility. This particular area is shared between just mine and one other apartment. The people in the other apartment work regular day hours, and I do shift work, so on the rare occasion that I have cleaned out there it's been when I am the only one about.
Because the windows are upstairs there is no way I would even consider attempting that myself, but would be happy to hire someone to do that, but if someone else should be doing that, well then...

Neadine

Going slightly off track here, but....
My downstairs neighbour is loud, to put it mildly. He just got home and started blasting his stereo at full blast, at 2am on a Monday morning, and this is not for the first time either. (This coming from a guy who had an issue with the noise from my washing machine, which was in the apartment before more)!!
Anyway, I mentioned this to the letting agent in the early days and she basically said I should talk to him about it. He ain't the approachable type! And going down there in the wee hours of the morning to confront him, when it's obvious he has been drinking (and driving) or something else.
Anyway, is this the sort of issue that also should be brought up with the mysterious Management Company?? My lease is almost up, and as much as I love where I live, I'm not sure how much more I can put up with down stairs dumb ass.

Neadine

Called the letting agent today, they are checking out about the windows and also said about my delightful neighbour, so just have to wait till they get back to me.

djimi

Neadine wrote: »

Ok, I have never been given any information about the 'management company', it was once mentioned by the letting agent when I first viewed the apartment when I asked about the cleaning of communal areas etc. At the time I was told the management company took care of this. My neighbour cleans hall/stairs regularly and I have swept/mopped it once or twice, no one else has ever cleaned it, that I am aware of.
I have been living here almost a year and in that time the windows have NEVER been cleaned. If I were living on the ground floor I wouldn't have an issue going out and cleaning them, but external upstairs windows.... no thanks.
There are only 4 units in the block and all are privately owned. When I initially moved in there were a few minor things, leaky tap kinda stuff, that I contacted letting agent about. They a maintenance guy my landlord uses (have never met LL but apparently he has a number of properties that this guy looks after). Anyway, he gave me his contact number so I could call him directly if there were any further problems. (yess, I've been waffling, it's Sunday night...)

There may be a confusion between the management company and the management agents. The management company is a company (committee) made up of the property owners, who look after the complex. Usually they will hire a management agent to take care of the upkeep of the complex, cut the grass, clean the windows etc.

If your complex is small it might have been decided that the management company (ie the homeowner residents) would take care of the maintenance themselves, rather than pay for an agent to look after the place. If this is the case then perhaps over time the owners stopped bothering to look after the place. Im not sure how common such a thing is, but you would need to check with your landlord (not the letting agent) as they would know the arrangement.

Neadine

Landlord phoned me this afternoon, I had contacted letting agent earlier. He agreed that it's the responsibility of the management company to clean external windows, so he's going to have it sorted.

odds_on

peter_dublin wrote: »

Exactly, I would say this is the norm and we operate the same, twice yearly, the OP should also note that insurance wise it would be doubtful if they are covered if they start cleaning windows and have an accident such as falling off a chair even if you ground floor, a good management company is there to run the place and a fixed schedule of works such as windows cleaning is part of it, when a lot of the time its directors recieve no compensation (our case anyway) they really don't want to start taking requests direct from tenents etc, today I had a request to chop down a tree as it was "ugly" :-) and another one which will "keep growing". The landlord should be aware of the last time the windows were cleaned and thus when they are due again and if necessary contacting the agent/management company.

I would make one point, we are a small 12 unit development so I know nearly all the tenants to see and say hello to and even a brief chat so I do know them but they also know requests have to go through official channels for records etc, although I still get the odd request or tree.

Unfortunately, management companies are often restricted in certain areas because some owners do not pay their management fees, thus, some services are either restricted or not done at all.

Unfortunately, this does not help the OP in getting his windows cleaned.

I have recently tried to buy two apartments but both sales fell through and both vendors owed in excess of 3,000 euros in management fees. (both apartments in the same complex.

Neadine

odds_on wrote: »

Unfortunately, management companies are often restricted in certain areas because some owners do not pay their management fees, thus, some services are either restricted or not done at all.

Unfortunately, this does not help the OP in getting his windows cleaned.

I have recently tried to buy two apartments but both sales fell through and both vendors owed in excess of 3,000 euros in management fees. (both apartments in the same complex.

He is a she in this situation!!
I'm not convinced of the existence of a management company, in theory there is one, somewhere, but I have also seen one of my neighbours out doing the garden and bits like that. Anyway, my windows are being cleaned.

peter_dublin

The company exists, as I said a lot of the time "owners" undertake works free of charge as they either enjoy it as it's their home or there is an agreement to reduce costs. I myself wired two apartment blocks for satellite free of charge, why? because I wanted freesat, wanted all cables run internally and the management company didn't have the 2k we were quoted at cheapest. We have two owners maintain some small beds of flowering plants at no cost to MGT co bar the cost of plants and materials.

I also undertake small repairs to further reduce costs so that the saved money can be spend on "improvments" in the complex such as additional landscaping projects etc. Generally the Management Companies presence does not need to be advertised in a well run development.

The_Conductor

Neadine wrote: »

He is a she in this situation!!
I'm not convinced of the existence of a management company, in theory there is one, somewhere, but I have also seen one of my neighbours out doing the garden and bits like that. Anyway, my windows are being cleaned.

The management company does exist- because if it fails to exist- or gets struck off the company register in the CRO- the property becomes vested with the Minister for Finance.

Management Companies are containers in which ownership of the property, including all communal areas are vested. This is their basic function. Thereafter they have a list of duties and obligations towards their members (your landlord is a member) and reciprochal list of duties and obligations of members towards the Management Company itself.

A Management Company will normally undertake maintenance of the property, in accordance with the 2008 ammendment to the act- which would include periodically painting the exterior of the buildings every 4-5 years, window washing (possibly), landscaping, maintenance of the carpark, provision of some services (possibly refuse for example) etc etc- but the biggie is insurance. A massive cost might include upkeep of security gates, lifts etc.

A Management Company can employ a Management Agent who can carry out on behalf their duties and obligations.

A big problem at the moment is the issue with non-payment of Management Charges by owners of properties. In cases like this- the role of the Management Company may diminish over time- until such time as only their core functions are fulfilled (the primary core function being the filing of Annual Returns with the CRO and their duties as a registered company). In cases like this- you're in trouble.

Btw- neighbours tending their gardens, cleaning the little bit of commonage outside their doors, spreading some salt in the winter etc- is what good neighbours do. It is not an undertaking over and beyond what is normally expected to happen- and if the proposed legislation ever gets off the starting blocks- will be expected of all residents of property (not just apartment dwellers) in future. It is normal to keep your stairs clear, to scrape a little ice etc etc etc. Its therapeutic to do a little gardening.........?