Training sessions for Cross Country

pconn062

With the cross country season starting soon I'm sure a lot of people will be starting to think about doing some specific training. I'm just wondering what sessions would be most beneficial for cross country running? Normal distances (for men anyway) are 6-10k so would you just treat them the same way you would a road race, a good mix of endurance and speed? From reading around, hills seem to be a important aspect but anyone else have any favourite X-country sessions that have worked for you?

JosDel

pconn062 wrote: »

With the cross country season starting soon I'm sure a lot of people will be starting to think about doing some specific training. I'm just wondering what sessions would be most beneficial for cross country running? Normal distances (for men anyway) are 6-10k so would you just treat them the same way you would a road race, a good mix of endurance and speed? From reading around, hills seem to be a important aspect but anyone else have any favourite X-country sessions that have worked for you?

There is a great seesion we do in the phoenix park at the magazine fort, the course is 1400mtrs approx it has a great mixture of hills...

if you ran the BHAA Garda race it is most of that course..

pconn062

JosDel wrote: »

There is a great seesion we do in the phoenix park at the magazine fort, the course is 1400mtrs approx it has a great mixture of hills...

if you ran the BHAA Garda race it is most of that course..

Yeah ran the Garda race this year, that's a great loop alright, bit of a spin for me though to run it every week! But again hills are seen as a priority?

RayCun

The kids are doing a lot of fartlek sessions, to get used to changing effort levels, the need to put in bursts to pass other runners etc.
(And distance work, because their last training period was for the track and they've gotten lazy :pac:)

jfh

there's a training schedule in the jack daniels book, if you have it..

Timmaay

Yep, Fartleks are the weapon of choice to get ya in shape for XC, only think I say watch out for, if you are after coming off the track season its soo easy to mess up fartleks now, and go out waay too hard for the first part of them, and ya end up dying a 1000 deaths!

In terms of Hills being a priority, no I wouldn't go that far, but Hills are great for forcing you to get use of the change of pace etc during a race even if its a flat course. But some of the XC courses out there do have many hills on them, us track runners have spend the summer being spoilt with zero hills (same with many road racers also!), so the slightest hill now can seem like Everest, so best to take them in during training and get use of them now, rather then utterly struggle up them during a race!

ecoli

Doing it this year and plan to keep it simple enough

- Hills, alternating between short steep hills and gradual long (2-3 min) ones different weeks
-Fartleks
- Long reps
-Tempo's
- Mid long runs (13-16ish)

Its similar enough to what I usually do the only thing i plan to change is to do these on the grass. Many of the routes I am using will be on hilly reps so the focus will be on effort:

Hell fire club (hills, Tempo and fartlek)
Munichs or the XC loop referred to earlier (long reps)
Tymon Park (Long reps)
Papal Cross & Polo Grounds (Tempos)

pconn062

So I'm resurrecting this thread again as I have another query.
I've done a couple of x-country races this year and one thing I've noticed is that I seem to be lacking a bit of strength when it comes to the business end of the races. What I mean is in the final 1-2k my aerobic system seems to go into over drive and the legs start to give up. I struggle to hold onto groups and usually fade on the last lap. An example would be today where I was running in a group at a fairly comfortable pace but when it came to the last lap, the group pulled away and I just couldn't respond as my legs felt shot. I'm wondering if this is down to something being missing from my training? A typical week for me looks like this:

2 sessions (usually short intervals and a longer tempo run)
2 easy runs with strides
1 steady longer run (usually 10 miles)
1 long run (up to 16 miles)

Anyone ever find this with their own training/racing or have any ideas?

ThePiedPiper

pconn, as you know yourself, I don't remotely pretend to be any sort of an authority on cross-country or any shorter stuff but I think that my own relatively consistent finish to the shorter races is down mostly to putting in tempo miles at the end of long runs. Obviously, I go at everything from a marathon perspective, but I've taught myself to remain fairly strong at the tail end of half and full marathons, and this transfers over into shorter stuff..

How about putting in tempo miles at the end of your long runs? even if it's only one or two, I think it might start to address the issue of maintaining speed on tiring legs?

pconn062

Good idea RFR, so say 3 tempo miles at the end of a 12-13 mile long run could be a good idea.

Ceepo

Hi there,

For me Cross country is more about speed endurance, yes you need strength but you still need to be able to run fast, maybe not track fast but still fast.
There are may ways to train and i wouldnt knock RFR idea but i dont think it would be as specific as some other session's.
Doing a session like 1k with 45 sec recovery then 400m with 90 sec recovery x 5 maybe 6 reps, depending on what your are able for, the idea of this session is to get used of running hard when you are tired, another session would be 200m with 30, 35, 40, 45, 50 55, 60, 60, 55, 50, 45,40, 35, 30, sec rec, this can mimic the race where you have to start fast settle through the middle and try to pick it up towards the end,
I would keep more or less to your training with the long run, this should be about time on your feet, medium long run two easy runs and two days with sessions more so than the tempo run.
The thing to remember is all sessions will help and running cross country is slightly different in the sense that you probably will not be running as fast as road or track however the effort you will be making will be as much if not more.

Hope this helps

pconn062

Ceepo wrote: »

Hi there,

For me Cross country is more about speed endurance, yes you need strength but you still need to be able to run fast, maybe not track fast but still fast.
There are may ways to train and i wouldnt knock RFR idea but i dont think it would be as specific as some other session's.
Doing a session like 1k with 45 sec recovery then 400m with 90 sec recovery x 5 maybe 6 reps, depending on what your are able for, the idea of this session is to get used of running hard when you are tired, another session would be 200m with 30, 35, 40, 45, 50 55, 60, 60, 55, 50, 45,40, 35, 30, sec rec, this can mimic the race where you have to start fast settle through the middle and try to pick it up towards the end,
I would keep more or less to your training with the long run, this should be about time on your feet, medium long run two easy runs and two days with sessions more so than the tempo run.
The thing to remember is all sessions will help and running cross country is slightly different in the sense that you probably will not be running as fast as road or track however the effort you will be making will be as much if not more.

Hope this helps

Hi Ceepo, that's a great post thanks. I do a similar session to the 1k rep with the 400m but the 200m rep with alternating recovery times is a new one on me and sounds great. So you would place more importance on these rep/interval sessions than on long/medium tempo runs?

Timmaay

From the mental side of things, how deep were you willing to dig? The last 1 or 2 km is usually about pure survival, I myself have had times where late in the race I'm just not willing to push through the pain barrier, an anything small at all, like tired legs etc and I happily focus in on that and use it as a covenant excuse to drop the pace and let everyone on!!

I'll admit straight out I don't have a clue how ya finished 2bh ha, were you totally tanked and on the ground for a min or so after the race? in this care then you probably mentally get everything outa yourself, but it is important to look at that aspect as well as any actual physical problems you had!

Ceepo

In a word yes, that's not to say there is no benefit in tempo run's, but it just puts different
stresses on the body, i never really do them myself, but thats just me as i prefer to do speed/interval type of work.
As said there is many ways to do speed work and that session of 200's with say 1 min rec is a completely different session, other good sessions for cross country are 400's of maybe 45 sec rec, TRY TO KEEP ALL AT THE SAME PACE, k's above and below race pace (example race pace 4 min k, do 1st at 3.50 2nd at 4,10 and repeat) and mile reps, these should be done at the correct pace for you and not at someone else's pace and is important not to do them to quick,
Imo most people run to hard in training, There are a lot of people out there who do there 400's in sub 80 sec but can't come near 5.20 ml in there races, i'm not saying don't train above race pace but it should be relative to it, also your easy run should be just that Easy

pconn062

Timmaay wrote: »

From the mental side of things, how deep were you willing to dig? The last 1 or 2 km is usually about pure survival, I myself have had times where late in the race I'm just not willing to push through the pain barrier, an anything small at all, like tired legs etc and I happily focus in on that and use it as a covenant excuse to drop the pace and let everyone on!!

I'll admit straight out I don't have a clue how ya finished 2bh ha, were you totally tanked and on the ground for a min or so after the race? in this care then you probably mentally get everything outa yourself, but it is important to look at that aspect as well as any actual physical problems you had!

That's a very interesting point man, I think I gave it all I had, I pushed as much as I could and I was a mess at the end (I nearly puked on my brother!). But it is definitely something I could be accused of in the past, I can say that last week at the novice I didn't push as hard as I could at the end and it cost me a place, my legs were wrecked and I backed off because it hurt, and I was pretty sour about it all week! But definitely something to consider as well as the physical side of things. Cheers.

pconn062

Ceepo wrote: »

In a word yes, that's not to say there is no benefit in tempo run's, but it just puts different
stresses on the body, i never really do them myself, but thats just me as i prefer to do speed/interval type of work.
As said there is many ways to do speed work and that session of 200's with say 1 min rec is a completely different session, other good sessions for cross country are 400's of maybe 45 sec rec, TRY TO KEEP ALL AT THE SAME PACE, k's above and below race pace (example race pace 4 min k, do 1st at 3.50 2nd at 4,10 and repeat) and mile reps, these should be done at the correct pace for you and not at someone else's pace and is important not to do them to quick,
Imo most people run to hard in training, There are a lot of people out there who do there 400's in sub 80 sec but can't come near 5.20 ml in there races, i'm not saying don't train above race pace but it should be relative to it, also your easy run should be just that Easy

Thanks a million for that Ceepo, I will take everything you say on board. I prefer short/long intervals myself over tempo running but nearly always include one regularly as I just considered necessary. As for your comments on 400's, I can be accused of that, I regularly run 400's in under 80's in training but rarely get under 5.40 pace in races!

Timmaay

pconn062 wrote: »

I was a mess at the end (I nearly puked on my brother!)

Ok ok, thats proof enough that ya have no problems pushing yourself ha!

ThePiedPiper

Interesting point that on the intervals being at or close to race pace. Maybe my 10 x 800 session at 2:55 apiece, done for marathon training, actually turned out to be something that is as equally beneficial to 6-8k cross country as the long stuff. I think I said it before to you pconn, that at the very top level, there really is very little difference between the training that 5,000 track runners, cross-country and marathoners all do. One feeds into the other, Tadesse, or a prime Haile, being good examples.

I would still believe that in order to get the maximum benefit from your long run, there should be a few tempo miles in it. But, as creepo is saying, it's probably not the key session for cross country. You've been putting great variety into your training lately, I don't think you need to do anything very different to be honest, maybe just a couple of tweaks here and there.

Still though, I think you're being a bit hard on yourself. I was one minute 20 seconds off my 5 mile PB on that course yesterday, you were in and around the same. And I'm definitely in better shape now than I was in August, so there was probably a good 2 minutes at least on the course compared to the road. Everybody was in bits at the end of that. You ran a great race. You'll have me for breakfast by the time the Rás comes around.

pconn062

Cheers RFR, funnily enough I was nearly exactly 1 min and 20 secs slower than my PB as well (it being 31:20 from the Irish Runner 5 mile)! But I take everything you say on board and on another note I definitely think those 800's made a big difference to your marathon training this time around especially as you were doing 10 of them at a time and they definitely stood to you yesterday as well when it got tough.

EauRouge79

Ran my 1st cross coutry race yesterday. Thought I ran pretty well to finish the 6k in 22:01 especially with a marathon only 2 weeks back.
The standard of running out there was very high though and im a good was down the page in terms of results.
Where are all of these runners during to road racing season.

ThePiedPiper

Cross country's always like that EauRouge. A sub-3 marathon is good enough for top 2-5% of most fields. An equivelent time in cross country might be good enough for top 50%. The main reason is that cross country has very very few recreational runners. In the race I did yesterday, the field was only about 30 or so, and there were only really 1 or 2 recreational runners.

mrak

RunForestRun wrote: »

Cross country's always like that EauRouge. A sub-3 marathon is good enough for top 2-5% of most fields. An equivelent time in cross country might be good enough for top 50%. The main reason is that cross country has very very few recreational runners. In the race I did yesterday, the field was only about 30 or so, and there were only really 1 or 2 recreational runners.

Very true - I'll never forget running the intercounties for the first time in sligo .. many years ago now. There were 120-140 odd runners. I came about 80-somethingth and the lad that travelled up with me was a 2:45 marathoner and came 3rd last. Serious eye openener at the time.

EauRouge79

RunForestRun wrote: »

Cross country's always like that EauRouge. A sub-3 marathon is good enough for top 2-5% of most fields. An equivelent time in cross country might be good enough for top 50%. The main reason is that cross country has very very few recreational runners. In the race I did yesterday, the field was only about 30 or so, and there were only really 1 or 2 recreational runners.

Spot on id say, most of them must only run cross country or trails I guess. I was struck by how fit a lot of them looked when stretching and warming up beforehand. Thank god these fellas dont turn up at road races that often. Didnt even recognise a lot of the names on the results afterwards.

RayCun

I think it's just the depth of field you get for a club championship. I'm sure most of the people at yesterday's Dublin XC race regularly - I recognised plenty of faces. But they won't all usually come out for the same race.

pconn062

Thought I should give this thread a little bump as some people are starting to look at their cross country winter plans. I have a question if anyone could help me. How many sessions do you normally do a week for cross training? I was thinking of alternating tempo work/long reps/fartlek and hills.

I am only back into normal training for the last 10 days or so and I'm currently looking to up the mileage a bit before getting into full training. I don't want to risk upping the miles and adding sessions as I'll probably get hurt so was thinking of maybe doing a few weeks of just tempo work while simultaneously increasing the miles slowly.

Some Kind of Wizard

pconn062 wrote: »

I am only back into normal training for the last 10 days or so and I'm currently looking to up the mileage a bit before getting into full training. I don't want to risk upping the miles and adding sessions as I'll probably get hurt so was thinking of maybe doing a few weeks of just tempo work while simultaneously increasing the miles slowly.

Sounds good to me. At the end of the day, mileage is key for XC..... Another very simple way I think of altering training for cross country is by doing the majority of runs on grass. I know in the past my legs feel unresponsive/dead after a few kilometres of XC racing after having done a lot of work on the roads.

KielyUnusual

pconn062 wrote: »

Thought I should give this thread a little bump as some people are starting to look at their cross country winter plans. I have a question if anyone could help me. How many sessions do you normally do a week for cross training? I was thinking of alternating tempo work/long reps/fartlek and hills.

I am only back into normal training for the last 10 days or so and I'm currently looking to up the mileage a bit before getting into full training. I don't want to risk upping the miles and adding sessions as I'll probably get hurt so was thinking of maybe doing a few weeks of just tempo work while simultaneously increasing the miles slowly.

Nothing prepares you for XC :eek:

At the club, we stick to a very similar schedule for the Cross Country. The track sessions on Tuesday have longer repeats and shorter recovery with a little more volume too. Tempo run on Thursday is the same (3 X 8/9/10 mins) and then on the Saturday morning of course, its the muddy hills of the Military Fort in Phoenix Park. That's where the specific stuff comes in. This year i think I'll try a few more longer tempo runs on grass (4-6 miles) because I think this works better for me than the mile repeats. I certainly find it more difficult anyway.

TFBubendorfer

RunForestRun wrote: »

A sub-3 marathon is good enough for top 2-5% of most fields. An equivelent time in cross country might be good enough for top 50%.

Very much true. The last time I ran cross country I didn't make the top half of the field and it's been a very, very long time since that happened in a road race.

As for appropriate training session, I think finding a big heavy spiky club and getting someone to bash you around the head with it for about 30 minutes would be the ideal mental preparation for cross country running.

ThePiedPiper

Call me ignorant, but I'm just not sure its 100% necessary to do a lot of specific training for cross country. Now, before ye write this off as complete nonsense, my rationale for this is mainly based on two of the lads in our club. One of them is mainly an 800m/1500m track runner, and has done very well at national level. Yes, he does nicely on the road too, but as far as I know, has never raced beyond 10k on the road. Yet, he translates his track and road speed to cross-country very well, winning our county race last year. Another lad at the club is primarily 400m/800m, and to be honest, I've never seen him running a road race, yet he represented the county at the intercounties last year, and always runs very well at the county senior race.

Then, you'll have people coming at it from an entirely high mileage perspective, Fionnuala Britton being a prime example. There is no simple answer, and I really feel that if you've committed a decent amount of high mileage work, or conversely, come from the track and add some longer tempo work, then there's a good chance you'll arrive at the same place. The same people are going to be good at road, track and grass.

I'll get my coat on the way out, don't worry.

Sacksian

RunForestRun wrote: »

Call me ignorant, but I'm just not sure its 100% necessary to do a lot of specific training for cross country. Now, before ye write this off as complete nonsense, my rationale for this is mainly based on two of the lads in our club. One of them is mainly an 800m/1500m track runner, and has done very well at national level. Yes, he does nicely on the road too, but as far as I know, has never raced beyond 10k on the road. Yet, he translates his track and road speed to cross-country very well, winning our county race last year. Another lad at the club is primarily 400m/800m, and to be honest, I've never seen him running a road race, yet he represented the county at the intercounties last year, and always runs very well at the county senior race.

Then, you'll have people coming at it from an entirely high mileage perspective, Fionnuala Britton being a prime example. There is no simple answer, and I really feel that if you've committed a decent amount of high mileage work, or conversely, come from the track and add some longer tempo work, then there's a good chance you'll arrive at the same place. The same people are going to be good at road, track and grass.

I'll get my coat on the way out, don't worry.

I'd agree that good athletes are, relatively speaking, good at everything but your 800m/1500m runners will be doing very different training during the xc season than they do during the track season if they want to be competitive on the country.

You can get through the 800m (less so, the 1500m) without having great aerobic endurance or strength but you can't do the same at xc. The best 800m-10k-marathon runners have them both as well as speed, to varying degrees, but "hobbyjoggers" don't necessarily have the same amount of training to dedicate to being (relatively) great at everything, so we all have our respective weaknesses, depending on our choice of event.

Personally, I've found that I need to up the mileage a good bit and do the hilly, muddy mile repeats to feel comfortable at xc.

The other big difference I've found between track (and road) and xc is the wide variability in paces that you'll go through relatively quickly during the course of a race. Generally, I know I haven't run well in xc if I've had a chance to settle for more than one minute! And this is something you can train for too (it can be translated to track and road too but is less fundamental to them, especially if you're going after a time).

NiallG4

pconn062 wrote: »

Thought I should give this thread a little bump as some people are starting to look at their cross country winter plans. I have a question if anyone could help me. How many sessions do you normally do a week for cross training? I was thinking of alternating tempo work/long reps/fartlek and hills.

I am only back into normal training for the last 10 days or so and I'm currently looking to up the mileage a bit before getting into full training. I don't want to risk upping the miles and adding sessions as I'll probably get hurt so was thinking of maybe doing a few weeks of just tempo work while simultaneously increasing the miles slowly.

Are you preparing to stop our attempt on 2 in a row. We will be weakened badly this year as 4 of our 6 scorers from last year are doing the marathon 6 days prior to the Senior CC.

pconn062

NiallG4 wrote: »

Are you preparing to stop our attempt on 2 in a row. We will be weakened badly this year as 4 of our 6 scorers from last year are doing the marathon 6 days prior to the Senior CC.

Damn right we are! Good to see you getting your excuses in early though.

NiallG4

pconn062 wrote: »

Damn right we are! Good to see you getting your excuses in early though.

That's the reality but I still think we will have enough to sort you track fairies out. Hopefully it is a nice mucky day and your illuminous spikes get dirty and you get muck on your running sun glasses.

ThePiedPiper

We're not all track fairies Niall! How's Frankfurt training coming along for you?

pistol_75

Star of the Sea XC on 28th September for anyone looking for some early season action.

NiallG4

RunForestRun wrote: »

We're not all track fairies Niall! How's Frankfurt training coming along for you?

Going just ok. Missed a lot of training in the past few weeks so hoping this week to put in a few good sessions. I am still considering Dublin as an alternative to Frankfurt but definitely doing one of them. Ran the Monaghan 10 miler on Sunday. It is a hilly wee course and wind and rain added to it nicely but I badly needed a blow out to kick start training. Next target is Athlone half. Did a good 10 mile fartlek on grass last night so I should be coming into good shape for Athlone. I think I peaked too soon for my last marathon so doing a shorter build up this time (12 weeks). I was disappointed with Monaghan run but have to accept it as I want to be peaking in October. I fully accept you are not categorized as a track fairy unlike your mate who will be gulping for air in Oldbridge from 6K onwards. His 6 x 200M sessions should help him for the last 2 hills though.

pconn062

NiallG4 wrote: »

That's the reality but I still think we will have enough to sort you track fairies out. Hopefully it is a nice mucky day and your illuminous spikes get dirty and you get muck on your running sun glasses.

You might remember that one of our track fairies won the race last year.

pconn062

KielyUnusual wrote: »

Nothing prepares you for XC :eek:

At the club, we stick to a very similar schedule for the Cross Country. The track sessions on Tuesday have longer repeats and shorter recovery with a little more volume too. Tempo run on Thursday is the same (3 X 8/9/10 mins) and then on the Saturday morning of course, its the muddy hills of the Military Fort in Phoenix Park. That's where the specific stuff comes in. This year i think I'll try a few more longer tempo runs on grass (4-6 miles) because I think this works better for me than the mile repeats. I certainly find it more difficult anyway.

I think that's the gospel right there. For a 6k race you could get away with reps on the track with some tempo or fartlek on the grass but for a 10k cross country I think you need those longer sessions over cross country-like terrain, for mental preparation more than anything.

I remember last year running out session cross country race (10k), usually in a 10k race you are ok for 8k and then suffering for the last 2k. Well in this race I was ok for 2k and then suffered like a dog for 8k!! :pac:

pconn062

So I thought we could maybe use this as at the main cross country thread for the next while anyway. Anyone getting ready for the cross season, how is the training going? Are you still in base phase or have you started sessions yet? When is the first race? In Louth where I am, our county cross country season is really early, the novice and intermediate are on the first two weeks of October and the senior is the 2nd of November so we haven't that long to get into good shape. I know other counties are a a bit later though.

ecoli

pconn062 wrote: »

So I thought we could maybe use this as at the main cross country thread for the next while anyway. Anyone getting ready for the cross season, how is the training going? Are you still in base phase or have you started sessions yet? When is the first race? In Louth where I am, our county cross country season is really early, the novice and intermediate are on the first two weeks of October and the senior is the 2nd of November so we haven't that long to get into good shape. I know other counties are a a bit later though.

Dublin Novice is also the first week in Oct

Running it myself with the first session on grass lined up for tomorrow (1km reps on an undulating course yum!)

pconn062

ecoli wrote: »

Dublin Novice is also the first week in Oct

Running it myself with the first session on grass lined up for tomorrow (1km reps on an undulating course yum!)

Sounds fun, you should be well up in that race I imagine?

ecoli

pconn062 wrote: »

Sounds fun, you should be well up in that race I imagine?

Should be a bit sharper than usual at this stage of the year alright. Dublin Novice usually tends to have some very good quality (in fact it's not uncommon for the novice to be higher quality than intermediates)

All things going well I think top 10 will hopefully be a decent (and realistic target)

Training approach nothing to drastic though with similar sessions to what I am used to but with a few more on the grass instead of track or road

pconn062

ecoli wrote: »

Should be a bit sharper than usual at this stage of the year alright. Dublin Novice usually tends to have some very good quality (in fact it's not uncommon for the novice to be higher quality than intermediates)

All things going well I think top 10 will hopefully be a decent (and realistic target)

Training approach nothing to drastic though with similar sessions to what I am used to but with a few more on the grass instead of track or road

Yeah I think that's the key, treat it like 10k training with just some sessions on the grass. Have a tasty hills/tempo session lined up for tomorrow, 5x1 min uphill/12 min tempo/5x1 min uphill. Dreading it! Having a new coach on board takes some of the pressure off, you don't need to think as much and just trust them and try to follow what's on the plan.

ecoli

pconn062 wrote: »

Yeah I think that's the key, treat it like 10k training with just some sessions on the grass. Have a tasty hills/tempo session lined up for tomorrow, 5x1 min uphill/12 min tempo/5x1 min uphill. Dreading it! Having a new coach on board takes some of the pressure off, you don't need to think as much and just trust them and try to follow what's on the plan.

Any chance the new coach was us collegiate based? Noticed a similar set up in one of your other sessions recently. I think it's a good way to set up a session as it has a form of race simulation (fast start of XC race, long slog and finish hard)

Lock

Last year I did every cross country race going, so much so that I was totally wiped by the time the national novice rolled around in December. I think that was my 10th or 11th race in 13 weeks or something ridiculous like that.

This was in part due to my inability to say no to team managers, and the notion that "Ah I'll be grand". Thankfully I managed to qualify out of all that novice and intermediate sh*te so I have a few free weekends to train through.

My plan is to run Star of the Sea as my September race, Gerry Farnan for October. Then Inter-Counties and National Novice in December. The 10k at inter-counties is what I'm nervous about. I was having a good run last year up until about 7 or 8k then the wheels completely came off and I lost 10 or 15 places.

I'm trying to take a more measured approach this year. I'm doing 2 sessions a week at the minute, and its all longer tempo stuff. I'll struggle at SOS XC and possibly Gerry Farnan but my A goal is the novice so I won't worry about getting on the grass just yet. This time last year I was hammering hills every second day which got me fit very quickly but I'll leave that stuff for another 3 weeks or so I think. Best of luck in the county xc's lads. It really creeps up on you after the summer

pconn062

Lock wrote: »

Last year I did every cross country race going, so much so that I was totally wiped by the time the national novice rolled around in December. I think that was my 10th or 11th race in 13 weeks or something ridiculous like that.

This was in part due to my inability to say no to team managers, and the notion that "Ah I'll be grand". Thankfully I managed to qualify out of all that novice and intermediate sh*te so I have a few free weekends to train through.

My plan is to run Star of the Sea as my September race, Gerry Farnan for October. Then Inter-Counties and National Novice in December. The 10k at inter-counties is what I'm nervous about. I was having a good run last year up until about 7 or 8k then the wheels completely came off and I lost 10 or 15 places.

I'm trying to take a more measured approach this year. I'm doing 2 sessions a week at the minute, and its all longer tempo stuff. I'll struggle at SOS XC and possibly Gerry Farnan but my A goal is the novice so I won't worry about getting on the grass just yet. This time last year I was hammering hills every second day which got me fit very quickly but I'll leave that stuff for another 3 weeks or so I think. Best of luck in the county xc's lads. It really creeps up on you after the summer

Sounds like a great plan man. Totally get where you're coming from with the team thing, can be hard to say no to the club when they're looking to put a team together but sometimes you have to put your own training first. I'm really annoyed as I'm missing SOTS this year, it's always a great race to get started but a friend of mine is organising a road race the evening before so will run that to support him. Good luck with it.

KielyUnusual

Dublin Novice for me too. I'll see you out there ecoli .

Our track is in repair, so all our sessions have been on the grass. Pyramid on the Tuesday (usually 30 minutes hard running in total) Tempo on the Thursday (3 X 10, 4 X 8 or similar) and then hills on the Saturday. We've been mixing it up a bit this year with 5 X 1 mile, 3 X 2 miles or 5 continuous being the sessions. I'm hoping all the running on grass will pay dividends because it was a definite weakness last year.

Question: Does anybody change their running technique for different terrains? I make a lot of contact with the ground when I run. Very loud footfall. I'm thinking less ground contact would be preferable over muddy terrain but I'm wont to intentionally change my stride also. Any personal experience or advise?

Sacksian

KielyUnusual wrote: »

Question: Does anybody change their running technique for different terrains? I make a lot of contact with the ground when I run. Very loud footfall. I'm thinking less ground contact would be preferable over muddy terrain but I'm wont to intentionally change my stride also. Any personal experience or advise?

I enjoy xc a lot (or at least the idea of it) but I'm objectively much worse at it than the track. In terms of technique, one theory I picked up from letsrun is that heavy strikers or power runners (which might be what you're describing) can struggle on muddy courses because they push against it and don't get the same return they would from the track or road - I guess lots of drills and hills should help with a quicker or more forefoot footstrike?

I think of myself as a "rhythm runner" - I can go pretty well once I get into a rhythm but on muddier courses, it feels like I just can't get started.

I do think some people are just (relatively) better at xc but, as long as you're covering all the bases in training, you should generally be in and around the guys you're in and around on the road.

Having said that, I always think the best guys at xc are the ones that can gut everything out, you know the guys that look like they're dying on the first lap of a race and are still carrying the same pained expression at the end but never slow down! Usually, these guys are also aerobic monsters and are thus able to cope better with the all the changes in pace.

I think long fartleks over xc terrain with lots of changes in pace would be a decent start for training.

Ultimately, though, there's something to be said for specificity so it'd be worth keeping in mind what your strengths are and what your ultimate running goals are.

I did find a decent instructional video for good xc technique featuring some dude from ethiopia - last lap of the 2005 long course XC - Kipchoge vs. Bekele. One thing I'd like to work on after seeing this is being able to use my arms more, which I generally don't (I think).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-SHZLPevNg

pconn062

Man, watching that video just reminds you how awesome Bekele was on the country, absolutely unbelievable the strength he had.

Regarding running technique, I'm certainly no expert and I'm actually not a very good cross country runner but on the track (and the road) I would be very high on my toes. However for the cross I find this too tiring and my calves usually complain so I actually have to adopt a more flat footed technique to help me get around. Now compared to others I would still be quite springy but it's definitely something I have to adjust too. The best cross country runners I've seen just glide over the terrain, there is a guy in my club and when you watch him you see everyone else trying to dig their way through this muck while he just floats effortlessly over the top of it.

KielyUnusual

Sacksian wrote: »

I enjoy xc a lot (or at least the idea of it) but I'm objectively much worse at it than the track. In terms of technique, one theory I picked up from letsrun is that heavy strikers or power runners (which might be what you're describing) can struggle on muddy courses because they push against it and don't get the same return they would from the track or road - I guess lots of drills and hills should help with a quicker or more forefoot footstrike?

I think of myself as a "rhythm runner" - I can go pretty well once I get into a rhythm but on muddier courses, it feels like I just can't get started.

I do think some people are just (relatively) better at xc but, as long as you're covering all the bases in training, you should generally be in and around the guys you're in and around on the road.

Having said that, I always think the best guys at xc are the ones that can gut everything out, you know the guys that look like they're dying on the first lap of a race and are still carrying the same pained expression at the end but never slow down! Usually, these guys are also aerobic monsters and are thus able to cope better with the all the changes in pace.

I think long fartleks over xc terrain with lots of changes in pace would be a decent start for training.

Ultimately, though, there's something to be said for specificity so it'd be worth keeping in mind what your strengths are and what your ultimate running goals are.

I did find a decent instructional video for good xc technique featuring some dude from ethiopia - last lap of the 2005 long course XC - Kipchoge vs. Bekele. One thing I'd like to work on after seeing this is being able to use my arms more, which I generally don't (I think).

I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. I would also see rhythm as being my strongest running asset. As I tire, I tend to be able to just keep the cadence constant but over a hilly course or tough terrain this isn't really possible.
I'd like to be a better XC runner, so like most things, I think the best approach is to be specific in your training. All my sessions have been over soft, grassy terrain and I'm trying to bring a lot more trail running in to my longer runs and easy runs. We'll see how this goes. The novice will be my first race since we faced off in the 3k at the start of the summer so this could go either way. Toying with entering the Rathfarnam 5k but its my least favourite distance so I reckon I'll opt out in the end.

That Bekele video is amazing. Not the toughest XC course I've ever seen but he just glides over the mucky patches. He doesn't seem to alter his approach at all, just runs straight through.

Sacksian

KielyUnusual wrote: »

I...We'll see how this goes. The novice will be my first race since we faced off in the 3k at the start of the summer so this could go either way. Toying with entering the Rathfarnam 5k but its my least favourite distance so I reckon I'll opt out in the end.

Well, you beat me by about 15 seconds over 3k so you should be at least 30 seconds ahead over 6k!

Ordinarily, I'd just be hoping for some progress on last year, but St Anne's was a very flat, dry course which suited me and I think that was about as good as it gets for me in xc. This year it'll be dry (I'm finding the trails and hills in the park very hard/dry at the moment), but considerably hillier. Top 25 and fourth scorer would be a good day. Can't see the field being much weaker than last year and there are a few guys eligible this year who, if they're running, could make it stronger!

Definitely going to do more xc races over the winter anyway building up to the national novice. It was my favourite race of the year last year (even though I didn't have a good day). The combination of conditions, competition and the insane course last year made it particularly enjoyable - it was like a muddy 800m race over 6k. Would love to get further up the field in that.

Given your speed and endurance, you should love 5ks: fast first mile, wilt a little, wilt a little more, sprint. Even better if you've a bit of company. I've only done Parkruns and Jingle Bells so my experience of 5ks might be coloured a bit by handy courses.