Question about Agency work

PirateShampoo

Right here goes.

I worked for a company for 3 months through the agency Programmed. So I was basically subbed out. Programmed payed my wages and everything else.

So here's my question, I've been offered my job back with the same company but with a different agency. The company seems to think I can work there until my visa is up in just under 5 months, because technically I've never worked for them, while the agency believes in can only do 3.

So I thought I'd ask here before I go on hold at immigration for a hour.

hussey

You can't work 5 months, only another 3 (max is 6 months)

http://www.immi.gov.au/visitors/working-holiday/417/eligibility-first.htm

If you are referred by an agency or labour supplier to a business, you can work for six months for that business. The same agency or labour supplier can refer you to another business where you can work for another six months. You cannot stay in the same position with an employer for more than six months by using different employment agencies, business affiliates or sub-contracting arrangements.

Working for longer than six months with the same organisation, regardless of whether the duties or location of the employee change, is generally not allowed (see extending the work limitation below). A Working Holiday visa holder may, work for independently owned franchises located in different areas for up to six months at each, as long as the franchisees are different employers with different Australian Business Numbers.

Diddler82

hussey wrote: »

You can't work 5 months, only another 3 (max is 6 months)

http://www.immi.gov.au/visitors/working-holiday/417/eligibility-first.htm

At the risk of getting in trouble with a MOD, You are wrong ...Well sort of mate

Commonwealth Bank have agreements in place with 2 agencies ... 1 keeps the person for 6 months then the person transitions to the 2nd agency for 6 months. The employer is not Commonwealth Bank in either situation so this person can stay for 12 months.

So the answer is yes you can, the agency employs you. It is kind of a grey area that is interpreted a few different ways.

So it can be done, with close to zero risk on yours or the companies behalf just don't let your old Recruiter find out and if it was an Irish recruiter I would delete the name of the company in case they come on here! Recruiters don't like losing their people to other Recruiters!

Batgurl

Diddler82 wrote: »

At the risk of getting in trouble with a MOD, You are wrong ...Well sort of mate

Commonwealth Bank have agreements in place with 2 agencies ... 1 keeps the person for 6 months then the person transitions to the 2nd agency for 6 months. The employer is not Commonwealth Bank in either situation so this person can stay for 12 months.

So the answer is yes you can, the agency employs you. It is kind of a grey area that is interpreted a few different ways.

So it can be done, with close to zero risk on yours or the companies behalf just don't let your old Recruiter find out and if it was an Irish recruiter I would delete the name of the company in case they come on here! Recruiters don't like losing their people to other Recruiters!

Just because it happens doesn't mean it's legal. If investigated Commonwealth could get in a lot of trouble for this.

Zambia

Diddler82 wrote: »

At the risk of getting in trouble with a MOD, You are wrong ...Well sort of mate

Commonwealth Bank have agreements in place with 2 agencies ... 1 keeps the person for 6 months then the person transitions to the 2nd agency for 6 months. The employer is not Commonwealth Bank in either situation so this person can stay for 12 months.

So the answer is yes you can, the agency employs you. It is kind of a grey area that is interpreted a few different ways.

So it can be done, with close to zero risk on yours or the companies behalf just don't let your old Recruiter find out and if it was an Irish recruiter I would delete the name of the company in case they come on here! Recruiters don't like losing their people to other Recruiters!

So you are saying if John DOE WHV holder was hired by Commonwealth Bank Main St Parramatta via X Agency from Jan to May 2012

In June 2012 he left X agency and signed with Y agency and was sent to work for Commonwealth Bank Main St Parramatta via Y Agency from Jun to Nov 2012.

you are saying this would not be in breach? Because the Immi link Hussey posted clearly states he would be and so would the bank however the bank could claim they did not know his conditions. They just paid an agency for a teller. Isnt that hte piont of a agency to handle those sort of details.

Diddler82

Zambia wrote: »

So you are saying if John DOE WHV holder was hired by Commonwealth Bank Main St Parramatta via X Agency from Jan to May 2012

In June 2012 he left X agency and signed with Y agency and was sent to work for Commonwealth Bank Main St Parramatta via Y Agency from Jun to Nov 2012.

you are saying this would not be in breach? Because the Immi link Hussey posted clearly states he would be and so would the bank however the bank could claim they did not know his conditions. They just paid an agency for a teller. Isnt that hte piont of a agency to handle those sort of details.

In a word YES. Except it was for the Insurance Division. I seriously doubt there was anything in writing to confirm this but it meant my housemate could work there for 12 months once he transitioned from one agency to the other after 6 months. Saves them time and money.

This has happened, is still happening and it could be argued it's wrong but it is 2 different employers paying the people (usually Ex-Quinn Direct folks too!), the bank gets someone for 12 months and another Irish person gets a job so everyone wins!

You can all argue over whether it's legal or not, to me it's just a known fact and for the person's first question my answer is still GO FOR IT!

Zambia

The insurance division and the banking division could have separate ABN's hence no foul

hussey

Diddler82 wrote: »

hussey wrote: »

You can't work 5 months, only another 3 (max is 6 months)

http://www.immi.gov.au/visitors/working-holiday/417/eligibility-first.htm

At the risk of getting in trouble with a MOD, You are wrong ...Well sort of mate

Commonwealth Bank have agreements in place with 2 agencies ... 1 keeps the person for 6 months then the person transitions to the 2nd agency for 6 months. The employer is not Commonwealth Bank in either situation so this person can stay for 12 months.

So the answer is yes you can, the agency employs you. It is kind of a grey area that is interpreted a few different ways.

So it can be done, with close to zero risk on yours or the companies behalf just don't let your old Recruiter find out and if it was an Irish recruiter I would delete the name of the company in case they come on here! Recruiters don't like losing their people to other Recruiters!

I linked the wrong page - sorry
http://www.immi.gov.au/visitors/working-holiday/417/obligations.htm
As Zambia said, unless they have different ABN, it clearly states below you can only work 6 months,
But then again, the legal department may have found way around this. Possibly hiring a 'consultant' etc
OP be VERY careful.

If you hold a Working Holiday visa the main purpose of your visit must be for an extended holiday. You can do any kind of work over the course of your 12 month stay in Australia, however all Working Holiday visa holders are limited to a maximum period of six months work with any one employer. This limitation applies to all employers and all forms of work.

The 'employer' is the business or organisation for which you are working directly.

If you are referred by an agency or labour supplier to a business, you can work for six months for that business. The same agency or labour supplier can refer you to another business where you can work for another six months. You cannot stay in the same position with an employer for more than six months by using different employment agencies, business affiliates or sub-contracting arrangements.

Working for longer than six months with the same organisation, regardless of whether the duties or location of the employee change, is generally not allowed (see extending the work limitation below). A Working Holiday visa holder may, work for independently owned franchises located in different areas for up to six months at each, as long as the franchisees are different employers with different Australian Business Numbers.

Batgurl

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Right here goes.

The company seems to think I can work there until my visa is up in just under 5 months, because technically I've never worked for them, while the agency believes in can only do 3.

So I thought I'd ask here before I go on hold at immigration for a hour.

At the end of the day, the agency is the one paying you and as Zambia said, they are the ones who could get into trouble for having you in breach of your visa regulations.

If they say you can only work 3 months, then they will probably only hire you for three months.

The company you will be working for has nothing to lose (except a skilled, trained worker) if they keep you on longer so of course they will say 5 months.

STIG83

What about if you working through an agency at a company and when the six months is up can you go directly onto the companies books?
Is that ok?

hussey

STIG83 wrote: »

What about if you working through an agency at a company and when the six months is up can you go directly onto the companies books?
Is that ok?

Nope, the business (the one you do the real work for) can only hire you for 6 months. However the agency can employ you for 12 if you are outsourced.

STIG83

While I'm here, what is the reason behind the 6 months at a company rule?

Mellor

Diddler82 wrote: »

At the risk of getting in trouble with a MOD, You are wrong ...Well sort of mate

Commonwealth Bank have agreements in place with 2 agencies ... 1 keeps the person for 6 months then the person transitions to the 2nd agency for 6 months. The employer is not Commonwealth Bank in either situation so this person can stay for 12 months.

So the answer is yes you can, the agency employs you. It is kind of a grey area that is interpreted a few different ways.

So it can be done, with close to zero risk on yours or the companies behalf just don't let your old Recruiter find out and if it was an Irish recruiter I would delete the name of the company in case they come on here! Recruiters don't like losing their people to other Recruiters!

None of this is even close to being correct.

Diddler82 wrote: »

In a word YES. Except it was for the Insurance Division. I seriously doubt there was anything in writing to confirm this but it meant my housemate could work there for 12 months once he transitioned from one agency to the other after 6 months. Saves them time and money.

This has happened, is still happening and it could be argued it's wrong but it is 2 different employers paying the people (usually Ex-Quinn Direct folks too!), the bank gets someone for 12 months and another Irish person gets a job so everyone wins!

You can all argue over whether it's legal or not, to me it's just a known fact and for the person's first question my answer is still GO FOR IT!

It's a "fact" that you are wrong. Gettign away with something doesn't mean its allowed.
The immigration clearly cover that situation above. That's not debatable, its there is plain english that you can't do it. It's the business that matters, not the employer or agency. Just because some businesses are ignoring it, or switching agencys to cover it doesn't mean its an allowed agreement.

I've a friend was was recently let go from CBA due to reaching the end of her six months. Her manager suggested that she switch agency or work directly for CBA and was told flat out by HR that they won't do that anymore. So that sector of commonwealth definitely don't support it.

As mentioning moving from different sectors can be allowed if they have different ABN numbers.

STIG83 wrote: »

What about if you working through an agency at a company and when the six months is up can you go directly onto the companies books?
Is that ok?

Nope. Still the same business.

STIG83 wrote: »

While I'm here, what is the reason behind the 6 months at a company rule?

It's because a WHV is a work and travel visa, not a work visa.

STIG83

I was working in a warehouse before through an agency, another guy there was through an agency too, when his six months was up he got changed over to the warehouse's books, seemed no issue with doing it.

Batgurl

STIG83 wrote: »

I was working in a warehouse before through an agency, another guy there was through an agency too, when his six months was up he got changed over to the warehouse's books, seemed no issue with doing it.

I know a person who is working here illegally...just because it's happening doesn't mean that it isn't illegal.

Same goes for the 6 month rule.

Mellor

STIG83 wrote: »

I was working in a warehouse before through an agency, another guy there was through an agency too, when his six months was up he got changed over to the warehouse's books, seemed no issue with doing it.

Read the OP again, the agency he is with say he can only do 3 months because they are correctly applying the rules.
Lots of companies are oblivious to the rule, or simply don't care. But in this spot they do care. And the OP has asked for clarification on the rule.
Stories of people who got away with it don't really help him when he is told he can't do it by the agency - who I assume pay his wages.

mandrake04

Have to agree with Hussey and Mellor, the conditions are clearly outlined on DIAC website, you could try to dress it up as a grey area with smoke and mirrors but it's clear that you can only work for a business for a max of 6 months per WHV.

The fact that they even threw a reference about Agencies and Labour hire companies in there means that someone has tried this on before as a work around for the 6 month rule and DIAC have closed that loophole.

Really it's up to each individual to adhere to the conditions of his/her visa, if they break those conditions it won't be the agency that gets deported and banned.

PirateShampoo

Yeah, I last worked for the company 3 months ago and left due to work slowing down, the company has now asked me to come back for a few months but now use a different agency. The second agency wouldn't of even known there was a issue until I had told them.

It's the agency in both cases who pay my wages and who I report to. It's them who I sue if I got hurt.

It's a bit of a dumb rule but I can understand why it's there in the case of lower payed unskilled jobs.