French alps shootings

DUBLINHITMAN

The more this story goes on the more I think it was the English may of had something to do with it ,
He was under suvailence for a couple of months a few years back by the mi5 or mi6
Mentions of coming from Iraq fleeing sadams regime .
Ex raf cyclist first on the scene maybe second .
Neighbours evacuated from there home in Surrey uk.
Putting Perspex around the cordoned off area of the house .


Maybe it's a bomb in the house
The safest way to get to the bomb with out saad al hilli triggering it was to kill him while he was on holiday ,
Baffled to be honest

DUBLINHITMAN

DUBLINHITMAN wrote: »

The more this story goes on the more I think it was the English may of had something to do with it ,
He was under suvailence for a couple of months a few years back by the mi5 or mi6
Mentions of coming from Iraq fleeing sadams regime .
Ex raf cyclist first on the scene maybe second .
Neighbours evacuated from there home in Surrey uk.
Putting Perspex around the cordoned off area of the house .


Maybe it's a bomb in the house
The safest way to get to the bomb with out saad al hilli triggering it was to kill him while he was on holiday ,
Baffled to be honest

40 minutes later sky Inform us of bomb disposal unit enter the house

JJJJNR

Talked about this a good bit over the weekend, I think it was either a political attack i.e. breivik, or history catching up.

I don't buy the "bomb in the house" sky are running, and also I think the way the Children are being named etc is terrible, they should be protected for once a gagging order should be implemented for their safety and identity.

humanji

It's a false alarm in the house, apparently. But it's a vary strange case so far. While it's possibly that it was just a random hate crime by a nut job, there's so many little strange bits of information coming out that really confuse things. I guess we won't be able to get a good picture of things until a few weeks time when the facts are cleared up a bit more.

asherbassad

humanji wrote: »

It's a false alarm in the house, apparently. But it's a vary strange case so far. While it's possibly that it was just a random hate crime by a nut job, there's so many little strange bits of information coming out that really confuse things. I guess we won't be able to get a good picture of things until a few weeks time when the facts are cleared up a bit more.

If it was a government hit then the truth will never come out (remember David Kelly?....total stonewall)

snafuk35

asherbassad wrote: »

If it was a government hit then the truth will never come out (remember David Kelly?....total stonewall)

Dr. Kelly committed suicide.

"It is my opinion that the main factor involved in bringing about the death of David Kelly is the bleeding from the incised wounds to his left wrist. Had this not occurred he may well not have died at this time. Furthermore, on the balance of probabilities, it is likely that the ingestion of an excess number of co-proxamol tablets coupled with apparently clinically silent coronary artery disease would both have played a part in bringing about death more certainly and more rapidly than would have otherwise been the case. Therefore I give as the cause of death: 1a. Haemorrhage; 1b. Incised wounds to the left wrist; 2. Co-proxamol ingestion and coronary artery atherosclerosis."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/oct/22/david-kelly-postmortem-self-inflicted

humanji

Let's keep this on the subject at hand, instead of getting sidetracked.

Tzar Chasm

JJJJNR wrote: »

Talked about this a good bit over the weekend, I think it was either a political attack i.e. breivik, or history catching up. Ah ye

I don't buy the "bomb in the house" sky are running, and also I think the way the Children are being named etc is terrible, they should be protected for once a gagging order should be implemented for their safety and identity.

Only royals/politicians/celebs caught with their pants down deserve gagging orders, fvck ordinary people their lives belong in the tabloids to be ruthlessly picked apart, heaping a bit more emotional damage on these kids wont do them any harm, and anyway they're only foreigners so their lives aren't worth as much.

DUBLINHITMAN

Glad I'm not the only one that thinks its all a bit suss
Latest is that the bomb unit were called as a precaution .
And the 25 shots were fired from the same weapon indicating one shooter ,

I also agree that naming the kids was a bad idea .
The grand mother with the Swedish passport has she been named yet??

That ex raf cyclist is bugging me thou
First on the scene ,
I wonder who else spotted the green 4x4 and the motorbike leaving or was it just him.

Tzar Chasm

See there's where the whole thing gets a bit suspect, each of the adults was shot twice in the head, that's 8 bullets, I've done a bit of hunting and that's hard even seasoned hunters will have difficulty making 3 kills like that in rapid succession(let's presume that a time space exists where the older daughter was beaten and the cyclists arrival) so why the 17 other bullets?

DUBLINHITMAN

The cyclist that was shot I think he was shot 5 times. Not 100% on that thou

Tzar Chasm

Now that I think about it a bit more I suppose it makes sense, if the cyclist had more bullets in him the rest probably did too, it reminds me a bit of something called 'confirming the kill' which is standard practice amongst some organisations

snafuk35

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

See there's where the whole thing gets a bit suspect, each of the adults was shot twice in the head, that's 8 bullets, I've done a bit of hunting and that's hard even seasoned hunters will have difficulty making 3 kills like that in rapid succession(let's presume that a time space exists where the older daughter was beaten and the cyclists arrival) so why the 17 other bullets?

You clearly haven't heard of the "Mozambique Drill"?
You put several bullets into the centre mass or torso and follow that up with one or two shots to the head.
I figure the shooter fired shots into the car and hit the three adults, he chased the girl who ran from the car and beat her and then the cyclist turned up so he shot him too. Then he finished them off with shots to the head.
Things happened fast, he panicked, screwed everything up leaving the two girls alive. Then he legged it in another car and was on the first flight out of there.

weisses

Isn't there some kind of code among hitman that you don't assassinate children ? ... Thats why i think its a professional hit ..

I don't think the killer panicked

Myrddin

weisses wrote: »

Isn't there some kind of code among hitman that you don't assassinate children ? ... Thats why i think its a professional hit ..

I don't think the killer panicked

But one of them was shot three times & severely beaten...some code

weisses

EnterNow wrote: »

But one of them was shot three times & severely beaten...some code

There are different (conflicting) reports on what happened to the older girl .. What i read is that all the people who got killed got shot 2 times in the head and the girl got shot in the shoulder and got beaten over the head ... but no matter how you read it imo all the adults were killed in a very professional manner and yet the children are still alive

Morrisseeee

What about the cyclist (who was killed) ?!

Is he just an unfortunate victim or is there more to the story ?!

Why was he shot 5 times, and the other cyclist was spared, if he (presumably) saw them fleeing the scene (in a 4x4 and a motorbike) ?!

Myrddin

weisses wrote: »

There are different (conflicting) reports on what happened to the older girl .. What i read is that all the people who got killed got shot 2 times in the head and the girl got shot in the shoulder and got beaten over the head ... but no matter how you read it imo all the adults were killed in a very professional manner and yet the children are still alive

Yeah but my point being, if there's a code that an assassin won't kill a child...why shoot/beat child in the first place? If it was a professional operation, it ended up having far from professional results

It's a bizarre case though

weisses

EnterNow wrote: »

Yeah but my point being, if there's a code that an assassin won't kill a child...why shoot/beat child in the first place? If it was a professional operation, it ended up having far from professional results

It's a bizarre case though

Yeah very Bizarre .... Maybe she got accidentally Hit (shot) ..My point is that If they wanted that kid to die they would have done so ... The reason why the kid got severely beaten is also a mystery to me

DUBLINHITMAN

Maybe it was a way of extracting information out off the father ,
As said before its a bazaar event and
Baffles me

snafuk35

weisses wrote: »

Yeah very Bizarre .... Maybe she got accidentally Hit (shot) ..My point is that If they wanted that kid to die they would have done so ... The reason why the kid got severely beaten is also a mystery to me

Maybe the shooter ran out of bullets?

The French police think he was using a Skorpion

weisses

snafuk35 wrote: »

Maybe the shooter ran out of bullets?

Unlikely ... the skorpion hold 20 rounds but they found 25 casings ... suggesting to me he reloaded

Larsso30

been thinking there is something somewhat suspect about this myself. I wonder if his being from Iraq may have had something to do with it. ? Old scores catching up with him

humanji

We don't really know the full extent of the girls wounds, so it could be that she ran from the car, the shooter chased her, grabbed her and knocked her to the ground. Then shot her and assumed she'd died before going back to make sure the rest were dead.

Or, the beating would also give credence to the possibility that it was a deranged loon with a gun. He either randomly chose that car or stalked the family (possibly some sort of anti-Muslim nut who thought he was killing invaders, for example) and killed them. The girl runs off, he gives chase, shooting after her and hits her. In a rage he beats her as the adrenaline rush takes over.

Tzar Chasm

snafuk35 wrote: »

weisses wrote: »

Yeah very Bizarre .... Maybe she got accidentally Hit (shot) ..My point is that If they wanted that kid to die they would have done so ... The reason why the kid got severely beaten is also a mystery to me

Maybe the shooter ran out of bullets?

The French police think he was using a Skorpion

One of the news sites report the caliber as 7.56, so that's most likely an ak47

enno99

humanji wrote: »

Or, the beating would also give credence to the possibility that it was a deranged loon with a gun. He either randomly chose that car or stalked the family (possibly some sort of anti-Muslim nut who thought he was killing invaders, for example) and killed them. The girl runs off, he gives chase, shooting after her and hits her. In a rage he beats her as the adrenaline rush takes over.

looks like there was more than 1 shooter according to the police

According to prosecutors all four victims were shot twice in the head, increasing speculation that the family were victims of a professional hit.

It was also reported that French police are hunting two killers after discovering that more than one weapon was used in the shootings.

France shooting: was Saad Al-Hilli assassinated over secret defence contract?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9531436/France-shooting-was-Saad-Al-Hilli-assassinated-over-secret-defence-contract.html

Nuclear link to French Alps massacre: Murdered Saad al-Hilli worked at top-secret British lab

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-shooting-nuclear-link-1314562


Authorities in France identified the fourth victim, a cyclist who apparently stumbled across the scene by chance, as Sylvain Mollier, a father of three who lived in the area and worked in the nuclear industry.


http://www.japantoday.com/category/world/view/police-look-for-answers-in-french-alps-killings



15.48 (13.48 BST): A former RAF veteran, who has a second home in Saint Jorioz, was riding his bicycle nearby when he was overtaken by a French cyclist. After riding into the car park, seven-year-old Zainab stumbled towards him before collapsing.

The man alerted the emergency services and performed first aid on the girl. He also reportedly smashed the window of the locked car, which still had its engine running. The bodies of a man, in the driver's seat, and two women, in the back of the car, were inside

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9525866/France-shooting-Timeline.html

humanji

Were the people in the car only shot twice in the head, or were they sprayed with bullets, two of which hit each their heads?

enno99

humanji wrote: »

Were the people in the car only shot twice in the head, or were they sprayed with bullets, two of which hit each their heads?

Its hard to tell whats true at this stage or if the truth will ever be known



Initial reports from the French authorities had said they were shot once in the head. A "double tap" where two bullets are shot into the same location is a favoured method of professional killers.

He said: "All four were killed by several bullets and all four were hit twice in the head."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9530707/France-shooting-prosecutor-confirms-victims-shot-twice-in-the-head.html

snafuk35

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

One of the news sites report the caliber as 7.56, so that's most likely an ak47

7.62mm X 39mm ammunition is used by the AK-47. That's a much more powerful high velocity round.

The Skorpion instead uses ammunition that is typically used by pistols and other submachine guns.

Different versions of the Skorpion can use .32 ACP (7.65×17mm Browning SR) (vz. 61, vz. 61 E) and also 9×19mm Parabellum (vz. 68) 9×18mm Makarov (vz. 65, vz. 82) .380 ACP (9×17mm Short) (vz. 64, vz. 83) depending on the version.

snafuk35

enno99 wrote: »

Its hard to tell whats true at this stage or if the truth will ever be known



Initial reports from the French authorities had said they were shot once in the head. A "double tap" where two bullets are shot into the same location is a favoured method of professional killers.

He said: "All four were killed by several bullets and all four were hit twice in the head."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9530707/France-shooting-prosecutor-confirms-victims-shot-twice-in-the-head.html

It might not have been a professional killer.
Anyone who has read spy novels or seen action movies might have heard of the "double-tap."
The killer could have got hold of a gun by whatever method and just killed them.
The victims were in the confined space of the parked car when they were killed so the killer could have fired his gun from just inches away.

snafuk35

humanji wrote: »

Were the people in the car only shot twice in the head, or were they sprayed with bullets, two of which hit each their heads?

If the killer was firing an automatic or semiautomatic weapon rapidly it would be unusual but not impossible to hit a group of victims twice in the head each. When you are firing rapidly especially in full automatic your aim is not going to be good especially with a small submachine gun like the Skorpion which is going to be bucking about with the recoil.

Usually when shooting at a target since your eye is only going to be focused on one point at any one time, the eye is going to look first at the target and then focus on the gun sight which is going to visually overlap with the target which is going to go out of focus. It would be difficult if not impossible to fire rapidly in semi-automatic or in full automatic and get exactly two hits in the head to multiple victims.

In semi-automatic when you are firing slow single shots you can achieve much greater accuracy so it could be possible to shoot a number of people twice in the head. It would be much easier when they are seated in a car and you are standing over them practically with their heads only inches away from the gun.

enno99

snafuk35 wrote: »

It might not have been a professional killer.
Anyone who has read spy novels or seen action movies might have heard of the "double-tap."
The killer could have got hold of a gun by whatever method and just killed them.
The victims were in the confined space of the parked car when they were killed so the killer could have fired his gun from just inches away.

The french cops can search for suspects with library cards and netflix subscriptions should narrow it down abit

enno99

enno99 wrote: »

15.48 (13.48 BST): A former RAF veteran, who has a second home in Saint Jorioz, was riding his bicycle nearby when he was overtaken by a French cyclist. After riding into the car park, seven-year-old Zainab stumbled towards him before collapsing.

The man alerted the emergency services and performed first aid on the girl. He also reportedly smashed the window of the locked car, which still had its engine running. The bodies of a man, in the driver's seat, and two women, in the back of the car, were inside

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9525866/France-shooting-Timeline.html

Some more info on the discovery of the incident


There is a second ‘witness’now – or rather someone who came upon the killing immediately after the RAF man had done so.


At around 4 p.m. that Wednesday, they came across the RAF man who was descending the road on his bike. He describes him as perturbed and in a panic. The RAF man tried to tell him and his two friends that he had come across bodies inside and outside a car. He spoke haltingly in French. The three could not make out whether he had tried to summons assistance on his mobile (cell phone) but there was no signal or whether he did not have a mobile phone.

I wish to add something about the gendarmerie: what it is for example.
In France we have a national police force: the police. We also have gendarmes.
The police fall under the Ministry of Interior. Gendarmes fall under the Ministry of Defense (Defence).

Gendarmes, like soldiers, remain in uniform and live in a barrack and they hold military ranks like soldiers.
They keep law and order in the countryside and in towns (communes) of fewer than 20,000 inhabitants.

It was therefore the local gendarmerie which replied to Philippe D’s telephone call.

Now this is odd: Normally the gendarmerie hands over an investigation to the police. In this case they would have handed the investigation over to the police of the nearest big town – Annecy or Grenoble or even Lyon (Lyons).

But in this case they did not.

In other words, the case is being investigated by the Ministry of Defense and not the Ministry of Interior. Secrecy is thus ensured.

http://www.marilynztomlins.com/articles/chevaline-the-forgotten-victim-sylvain-mollier/

Suceed

I notice reading that last link that the cyclist who was shot also worked in the nuclear industry, "as an employee with the company Crezus which supplies equipment to nuclear power plants."

A coincidence, or a thickening of the plot?

mikom

Stench of Mossad off the whole thing.

BillyMitchel

Suceed wrote: »

I notice reading that last link that the cyclist who was shot also worked in the nuclear industry, "as an employee with the company Crezus which supplies equipment to nuclear power plants."

A coincidence, or a thickening of the plot?

Thickens the plot! Very strange case. I wonder will we find out what the girl had to say. If its some sort of political assassination we'll never find out the truth either way. if it was just some nutcase, chances are he probably would of left clues all over the place.

Monty Burnz

weisses wrote: »

Isn't there some kind of code among hitman that you don't assassinate children ? ... Thats why i think its a professional hit ..

I don't think the killer panicked

That's a nice idea but I'm not sure why you would expect a disparate group of murderers to subscribe to a code of ethics.

This is a very fishy case - I was surprised to learn that the random French cyclist was a 'nuclear metallurgist'.

DUBLINHITMAN

Oh no
Sky news have said today that the BMW
Will be examined by the same people that examined Princess DIANA,s Mercedes .

Id say that the older girl won't even be able to tell if the shooter was English because he more than likely didn't speak .
This is going to be unsolved in my eyes

Monty Burnz

DUBLINHITMAN wrote: »

Oh no
Sky news have said today that the BMW
Will be examined by the same people that examined Princess DIANA,s Mercedes .

It's this tying together of completely random CTs that I don't understand, unless that's a joke?

DUBLINHITMAN

I'm not saying its the same people examining the car that examined Diana's merc
Sky news said it buddy
But it kinda gets the ct train fueled a bit more

Monty Burnz

DUBLINHITMAN wrote: »

I'm not saying its the same people examining the car that examined Diana's merc
Sky news said it buddy
But it kinda gets the ct train fueled a bit more

No, I'm not suggesting that you made it up - I'm just questioning why one would cite one very thin CT in relation to a completely different case (a CT which may actually have some mileage in it). Associating things like this discredits genuine cases rather than supporting them.

DUBLINHITMAN

Get you now buddy .
Cyclist interview coming up on sky soon

snafuk35

The British witness seems very cool and calm. Must be his RAF training.

Cork boy 55

Maybe its a revenge killing by a lone wolf or some right-wing/jewish element in French society for the jihadist Toulouse and Montauban shootings in march of this year
or some other anti-jihad/muslim operation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toulouse_and_Montauban_shootings

i.e. MO
Find random arabs, kill them for revenge


If it's a lone wolf its someone who works or lives near the campsite
saw the arab family and decided to stalk and kill them.

If it a conspiracy it an odd location to find and kill some random arabs.
Perhaps the senior planner is connected to campsite in some way.
It's possible someone rich paid some hitman to kill random arabs for revenge
although again how did the hitman end up in the alps?
Also there is not much point carrying out sectarian or political killings
to achieve revenge or some other purpose if no-one knows what they are.

I reckon a lone wolf "anti-arab" who is connected to campsite in someway
carried it out possibly in revenge for the Toulouse killings in March
Most likely simplest explanation everything else does not make sense or is leading to dead ends.

MadYaker

Its a strange one alright. The remote location and the manner in which the victims were killed, all shot twice in the head at close range except the cyclist, would suggest a professional hit but if it was a pro job then it was a very sloppy one, 2 girls survived etc. I think the reason the cyclist was shot 5 times is because he was trying to escape on his bike after discovering the scene. He did work for a company that supplies equipment to nuclear power plants but i think thats just a coincidence. I think the answers lie in Saad al Hili's past. Either the supposed dispute about inheritance with his brother, which is what the police seem to be focused on, or something else that has yet to come to light.

The next most important progression seems to me to be the girls eyewitness account. However id say it will be quite some time before she will be able to recount clearly what she saw that day, and she is very young.

DUBLINHITMAN

It's said that mr al hilli
Was in and out of the camp all week and seemed agitated .
I think he could have been buying info or selling info to the cyclist that was shot .
It's said that they both have links to nuclear business . Maybe coincidence maybe not .

A top detective on sky today was asked if it was in his hands he rekons that there would be 0% of it been solved .

weisses

I read that the cyclist could have been the target instead of the family

humanji

The way I understood that was that they simply have no motive and said that it's possible that anyone could have been the target. And as usually, the Daily Mail picked this up as meaning the police are 100% positive that the cyclist was the target.

Sure the target could have been the ex-RAF cyclist who found the scene, and the killer got the wrong cyclist.

weisses

Didn't get that story from the daily mail ... But i get your point. I don't believe however this was a random killing.

Little Acorn

Former policeman arrested for this now.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2561919/Man-arrested-France-connection-murder-British-family-French-Alps.html

DUBLINHITMAN

Wonder what his motive was news said hes a bit of a loose cannon
maybe a bit of roadrage for now thou
who nows