Gardai (and Shatter) failed to enforce the law at RIRA funeral

JustinDee

Fenian Army wrote: »

Thanks for that, the scene of the detective climbing out of the ditch soaking wet made my day

A certain photo in the papers on Monday morning made the day of many Irish people.

.jacksparrow.

steote=JustinDee;80713877]The sham funeral procession was handled very well indeed by the police, who showed great restraint in a pressure situation.

On the plus side, it 'outed' sympathisers of this deluded cause (for want of a better word) into one place. A surveillance team's dream. Also on the plus side, it highlighted how low these criminals stoop to maintain control over decent everyday and law abiding citizens.

On the downside however, its simply depressing that people who weren't even born during the height of the so-called Troubles latch on to its remnants who delusively cling to a hijacked cause.
This minority ignores the democratic rights of this island's inhabitants under the conceit that their ignorant sociopathic activity is allegedly noble when it is nothing more than criminal in everything it does.[/Quote]




A lot of people fail to realise its a circle that will never end.the Norths troubles don't end and begin with the good Friday agreement.slowly but surely the circle comes around again and the movement gathers momentum through people who become disillusioned with agreements peace processes etc.

It's always been the case in Ireland and will continue to be,until the Norths situation is sorted properly.

Also seems the good Friday agreement was signed 15 years ago,there is a huge portion of the island that didn't vote because they were too young,so a lot of opinion has changed since then.

I don't support any groups etc but until people see the situation from everyone's perspective,well around and around we go....

JustinDee

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

A lot of people fail to realise its a circle that will never end.the Norths troubles don't end and begin with the good Friday agreement.slowly but surely the circle comes around again and the movement gathers momentum through people who become disillusioned with agreements peace processes etc.

It's always been the case in Ireland and will continue to be,until the Norths situation is sorted properly.

Also seems the good Friday agreement was signed 15 years ago,there is a huge portion of the island that didn't vote because they were too young,so a lot of opinion has changed since then.

I don't support any groups etc but until people see the situation from everyone's perspective,well around and around we go....

A rough generalism like that above won't change anything. You're speaking for the majority in an wholly unqualified vein. You're entitled to your opinion though of course. The Agreement you mention effected constitutional change. I'd like to see you prove that there is enough of a sea change demanded by enough Irish inhabitants. I would say you'd fail in trying this.

You know I think that this event deserves a lot less outrage than some people are giving it here. This isn't about being republican, or anything of the sort. This is the visual representation of the underclass divide in Ireland where it's the Gardai who are the 'scum' - the representatives of the establishment that in many cases pays for their welfare and housing, but whom are held in disregard by this minority.

I don't see where the idea of republicanism comes into this. When was the last time any of these people did anything to further their cause? They could care less. They give two fingers to the establishment and that is why they are held in such regard by the unwashed.

Laminations

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

A lot of people fail to realise its a circle that will never end.the Norths troubles don't end and begin with the good Friday agreement.slowly but surely the circle comes around again and the movement gathers momentum through people who become disillusioned with agreements peace processes etc.

That minority you talk about likely don't even know or care what the agreements contain or that those agreements represent the expressed wish of the majority.

It's always been the case in Ireland and will continue to be,until the Norths situation is sorted properly.

Disillusionment will go on for some people long after the north is reunited, because the north is just a convenient banner under which people try and excuse away their behaviour. People not happy with their lot in life blame the Brits and rail against society in general clutching at any old excuse to try and justify their anger. We saw the same flash up in London where <unmentionable word> tried to use the shooting of a black man to excuse their riotous thievery.

Laminations

Fenian Army wrote: »

He should have known better than to try and interfere with a funeral... as the garda did in this case.

This is the attitude that is propagated by Garda inaction/action amongst some circles. 'dont mess with us, and if you do it'll be your fault what happens'. If the gardai had intervened (now not in some crazy 'spray the crowd with bullets' way) and the crowd got violent, the blame should lie fully with the crowd. It reminds me of those who blame rape victims for instigating their attack because they 'dress sexy'.

The gardai cannot be accused of instigating violence by doing their job, the blame should always lie with the agressor.

.jacksparrow.

Laminations wrote: »

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

A lot of people fail to realise its a circle that will never end.the Norths troubles don't end and begin with the good Friday agreement.slowly but surely the circle comes around again and the movement gathers momentum through people who become disillusioned with agreements peace processes etc.

That minority you talk about likely don't even know or care what the agreements contain or that those agreements represent the expressed wish of the majority.

It's always been the case in Ireland and will continue to be,until the Norths situation is sorted properly.

Disillusionment will go on for some people long after the north is reunited, because the north is just a convenient banner under which people try and excuse away their behaviour. People not happy with their lot in life blame the Brits and rail against society in general clutching at any old excuse to try and justify their anger. We saw the same flash up in London where <unmentionable word> tried to use the shooting of a black man to excuse their riotous thievery.

Generalisation much,wow?you know what everyone on the island thinks,plus the rioters in England,every one of them.how can I argue with your knowledge.

donaghs

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

steote=JustinDee;80713877]
A lot of people fail to realise its a circle that will never end.the Norths troubles don't end and begin with the good Friday agreement.slowly but surely the circle comes around again and the movement gathers momentum through people who become disillusioned with agreements peace processes etc.

It's always been the case in Ireland and will continue to be,until the Norths situation is sorted properly.

I dont see what this has to do with the death of this Dublin extortionist? Can any crime be excused by flying a flag?

.jacksparrow.

donaghs wrote: »

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

steote=JustinDee;80713877]
A lot of people fail to realise its a circle that will never end.the Norths troubles don't end and begin with the good Friday agreement.slowly but surely the circle comes around again and the movement gathers momentum through people who become disillusioned with agreements peace processes etc.

It's always been the case in Ireland and will continue to be,until the Norths situation is sorted properly.

I dont see what this has to do with the death of this Dublin extortionist? Can any crime be excused by flying a flag?

I was replying to a totally different post.

Laminations

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Generalisation much,wow?you know what everyone on the island thinks,plus the rioters in England,every one of them.how can I argue with your knowledge.

I am basing my post on the approval stats for the GFA and more recent polls. I also agree with Rojomcdojo, that 'republicanism' is a facade, a convenient cover for career criminality. This is quite obvious when it comes to RIRA, who amount to a criminal gang, targeting and being targeted by other gangs as they jostled to control a lucrative drugs trade.

As for the London rioters, nah you're right, robbing Nike air max from JD Sports really redressed the lack of justice they were fighting for, attacking elderly people in their homes really bolstered people's wish to see a thorough investigation into the death of Mark Duggan. Torching community businesses really got across the message that these young people can contribute something valuable to society.

.jacksparrow.

Laminations wrote: »

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Generalisation much,wow?you know what everyone on the island thinks,plus the rioters in England,every one of them.how can I argue with your knowledge.

I am basing my post on the approval stats for the GFA and more recent polls. I also agree with Rojomcdojo, that 'republicanism' is a facade, a convenient cover for career criminality. This is quite obvious when it comes to RIRA, who amount to a criminal gang, targeting and being targeted by other gangs as they jostled to control a lucrative drugs trade.

As for the London rioters, nah you're right, robbing Nike air max from JD Sports really redressed the lack of justice they were fighting for, attacking elderly people in their homes really bolstered people's wish to see a thorough investigation into the death of Mark Duggan.

I would say the rioters are just sure scum,not people with anger towards a government.

Laminations

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

I was replying to a totally different post.

He was a Dublin criminal involved in murdering other criminals, what does he have to do with the situation in the north? At 32 he never experienced the troubles. How has he advanced things in the north? How were any of his actions advantageous to the republican movement? What does killing drug dealers and extorting Irish publicans have to do with the north? It's a convenient banner, a flag, a smokescreen.

.jacksparrow.

Laminations wrote: »

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

I was replying to a totally different post.

He was a Dublin criminal involved in murdering other criminals, what does he have to do with the situation in the north? At 32 he never experienced the troubles. How has he advanced things in the north? How were any of his actions advantageous to the republican movement? What does killing drug dealers and extorting Irish publicans have to do with the north? It's a convenient banner, a flag, a smokescreen.

I couldn't tell you,I'm not a member of the IRA to be honest.I'm sure they have their beliefs and each member has a certain role in their eyes.

Have you any first hand knowledge of how this group thinks?

Armaghmagic

I would agree with Shatter and the Guards as if they intervened then it could have ended up in a riot, which would have played right into the hands of a lot of the people who attended.

The thing that did annoy me is where the Gardaí were shielded from seeing the people getting changed out of their RIRA clothing. The Guards should have had an elevated view(even the chopper) to see who was dressed up in balaclavas!

Laminations

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

I couldn't tell you,I'm not a member of the IRA to be honest.I'm sure they have their beliefs and each member has a certain role in their eyes.

But you can tell us that there are swathes of people unhappy with the GFA?

Have you any first hand knowledge of how this group thinks?

Yes, they think Alan Ryan was some kind of republican martyr. They confuse republicanism with criminality and any kind of social/political dissent.

Sunnyisland

Laminations wrote: »

I'd also take issue with the media and their portrayal of the criminal underworld and dissident republicans. Actions like what happened at this funeral should be lambasted in the press. Too often the media dub these criminal figures with 'hard sounding' nicknames and glamourise or mystify their wicked lives. 'The Beast' was this fellas name, a right goer in the sack according to a Sunday World article... They should be referred to by humiliating monikers, and disgraceful events like this funeral should be reported as 'a mickey mouse parade by fat masked men, likely involved in gangland criminality, and too dim to effect change by any other way than violence' rather than a 'dissident republican show of strength'.

They may be criticised by certain media but they are not ridiculed enough.

But that wouldent sell there papers, which is there end goal.

conorhal

Hedgemeister wrote: »

Yesterday, whether they realise it or not, was a big test for the Gardai...the dipping of Republican toes in the water to see how they would react, and how much support parading masked gunmen would get in our capital city. In the run-up to the 1916 centenary we'll see a lot more of this stuff I reckon, because the Gardai failed their test, and, far from making 'a wise decision' it appears to some that our police force were intimitated, and backed down.

I can't think of any (civilised) capital city in the world where a proper police force would allow a gang of armed and masked wannabee soldiers to parade, let alone discharge weapons in public, and in daylight !

I completely agree with this.

What should have been done was a complete saturation of the area by the Guards and EMU with a perimiter thrown up for half a mile around the church. Every Man, pram, woman and car entering the area should have been searched and anybody found with paramilitary paraphenalia arrested. In such a scenario you don't get a riot because you are dealing with small groups BEFORE they have turned into a large crowd.
Let them bleat about police 'harrasment' all they like, they would have gotten the message.
Sombody else that should have gotten the message was the presiding priest who should have barred the doors and told every man one of them that they faced excommunication if their satanic actors didn't vacate holy ground immediately.

OldNotWIse

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

You know I think that this event deserves a lot less outrage than some people are giving it here. This isn't about being republican, or anything of the sort. This is the visual representation of the underclass divide in Ireland where it's the Gardai who are the 'scum' - the representatives of the establishment that in many cases pays for their welfare and housing, but whom are held in disregard by this minority.

I don't see where the idea of republicanism comes into this. When was the last time any of these people did anything to further their cause? They could care less. They give two fingers to the establishment and that is why they are held in such regard by the unwashed.

They simply romanticise the idea of doing sweet f.a, terrorising others and getting paid for it.

Laminations

Just a question for people who are using the fact that this passed off peacefully as evidence that the Garda response was the right one.

Why not let these paramilitaries parade through Dublin every weekend? They can pick a different suburb each time, dress up, fire their guns, salute criminals and terrorists and abuse the national flag and sure it'll all be grand once the gardai don't annoy them by intervening? It'll all pass off peacefully so what's the harm?

Ash.J.Williams

Laminations wrote: »

Just a question for people who are using the fact that this passed off peacefully as evidence that the Garda response was the right one.

Why not let these paramilitaries parade through Dublin every weekend? They can pick a different suburb each time, dress up, fire their guns, salute criminals and terrorists and abuse the national flag and sure it'll all be grand once the gardai don't annoy them by intervening? It'll all pass off peacefully so what's the harm?

It seems the guards and the Ryans had been in contact over the arrangements and an agreement was reached. This agreement was "reneged" and shots were fired. I would imagine if there was a ra funeral tomorrow, the same agreement would not be made.

Laminations

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

It seems the guards and the Ryans had been in contact over the arrangements and an agreement was reached. This agreement was "reneged" and shots were fired. I would imagine if there was a ra funeral tomorrow, the same agreement would not be made.

But the same threats and likelihood of violence from the RA crowd would still be there so why would the Garda response be any different??

Ash.J.Williams

Laminations wrote: »

But the same threats and likelihood of violence from the RA crowd would still be there so why would the Garda response be any different??

What i implied was, the gardai backed off in respect to a deal they made with the ryans. Next funeral there will be no deal.

Sponge25

It's a pitty the lot weren't shot.

They give Republicans a bad name, behaving like gangsters!

Morpheus

All this crap about the ERU or army killing hordes of innocents etc is so silly... some people here dont understand the DF role in ATCP (aid to civil power)... they dont deploy unless some other state body asks them if they can assist them, except in their own operational security roles.

The army perform a number of roles, one of them is public order control - which involves NO guns, they wear pretty much the same equipment as the garda's public order unit, they do the same training (ive been involved in this) and can be mobilised in large numbers pretty quickly, obviously they were not requested out on the streets by the Gardai but that's not to say they weren't sitting in full riot gear in one or two of the dublin barracks waiting to board trucks at a moments notice.

DF provide an ATCP capacity to the govt and thus the gardai in many roles, from unarmed riot units, surveilance (on the ground, the sea, in the air, covertly overtly etc), they provide the GASU with pilots, all the way up to heavily armed units to protect and defend whatever needs protection or defence.

As for deploying snipers - obv to pick off the shooters hollywood style?
Under what circumstances could they shoot a firer of a possibly replica weapon, someone who is shooting it from the centre of a crowd, plainly into the air and not at someone? What are the rules of engagement here? This isnt the bogside, its not fallujha, have you any idea of the effect a sniper round has when it hits a body? of the penetration capability of a high velocity high powered round? one sniper shot could kill or maim multiple innocents surrounding the shooters.

Besides, in the RSU's and the ERU the gardai have their own well trained sniper teams... then the Army have, besides standard soldiers and snipers, the Army Ranger Wing at its disposal, ERU is I guess effectively a SWAT team, the ARW is typically a special forces team, trained in many roles, but both army and gardai also have their own highly capable intelligence units (G2 anyone?) who often work closely together in surveillance roles, especially in the ATCP role, who's to say that any of these were not deployed or were not on standby??

Believe me the security forces of this country know well who the shooters were and have at this stage identified all interesting individuals and probably a few new ones who will throw up some interesting information in the future. There were far more leads and intel to be harvested by letting this criminal funeral continue in the farcical manner in which it happened.

I wonder were the guns firing live rounds? Id like to assume not.

Ash.J.Williams

Morphéus wrote: »

All this crap about the ERU or army killing hordes of innocents etc is so silly... some people here dont understand the DF role in ATCP (aid to civil power)... they dont deploy unless some other state body asks them if they can assist them, except in their own operational security roles.

The army perform a number of roles, one of them is public order control - which involves NO guns, they wear pretty much the same equipment as the garda's public order unit, they do the same training (ive been involved in this) and can be mobilised in large numbers pretty quickly, obviously they were not requested out on the streets by the Gardai but that's not to say they weren't sitting in full riot gear in one or two of the dublin barracks waiting to board trucks at a moments notice.

DF provide an ATCP capacity to the govt and thus the gardai in many roles, from unarmed riot units, surveilance (on the ground, the sea, in the air, covertly overtly etc), they provide the GASU with pilots, all the way up to heavily armed units to protect and defend whatever needs protection or defence.

As for deploying snipers - obv to pick off the shooters hollywood style?
Under what circumstances could they shoot a firer of a possibly replica weapon, someone who is shooting it from the centre of a crowd, plainly into the air and not at someone? What are the rules of engagement here? This isnt the bogside, its not fallujha, have you any idea of the effect a sniper round has when it hits a body? of the penetration capability of a high velocity high powered round? one sniper shot could kill or maim multiple innocents surrounding the shooters.

Besides, in the RSU's and the ERU the gardai have their own well trained sniper teams... then the Army have, besides standard soldiers and snipers, the Army Ranger Wing at its disposal, ERU is I guess effectively a SWAT team, the ARW is typically a special forces team, trained in many roles, but both army and gardai also have their own highly capable intelligence units (G2 anyone?) who often work closely together in surveillance roles, especially in the ATCP role, who's to say that any of these were not deployed or were not on standby??

Believe me the security forces of this country know well who the shooters were and have at this stage identified all interesting individuals and probably a few new ones who will throw up some interesting information in the future. There were far more leads and intel to be harvested by letting this criminal funeral continue in the farcical manner in which it happened.

I wonder were the guns firing live rounds? Id like to assume not.

sense at last!

Laminations

The Gardai cannot ignore gunshots based on an assumption that they aren't live rounds. The army could very well have been on stand by. I appreciate your clarification of their use in crowd control as some posters were responding as if I suggested they should baton charge or shoot dead the entire funeral prices soon. Also I'm sure surveillance was being employed and that gardai identified many attendees. This is not the point of my call for army presence. The subversive display of paramilitarism should never have been allowed happen here. The firing of shots, the abuse of the flag, the rigmarole of a state Herod funeral. The Irish Army are the only army of this land, their presence there would've been a statement of such and provided the gardai with the support they'd have needed to prevent the paramilitary display and control any crowd disagreement with this.

karma_

Laminations wrote: »

Just a question for people who are using the fact that this passed off peacefully as evidence that the Garda response was the right one.

Why not let these paramilitaries parade through Dublin every weekend? They can pick a different suburb each time, dress up, fire their guns, salute criminals and terrorists and abuse the national flag and sure it'll all be grand once the gardai don't annoy them by intervening? It'll all pass off peacefully so what's the harm?

For any number of reasons, not least the fact that funerals are emotive situations and forcing a confrontation that could result in catastrophic consequences when success is not even guaranteed.

Also, it's bad form to interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake. I'm sure the intelligence gathered at the funeral is worth far more in the long run and more damaging to the dissidents. It has already been pointed out that arrests which are potentially connected to this have already been made and weapons seized.

Sponge25

It's an absolute joke every guard isn't armed! Who agrees?

Every guard should have a suitable pistol to back them up. I know young lads with revolvers these days!

Laminations

Morpheus, similar question. Should we allow paramilitary displays (gunshots, salutes, flag waving and balaclavas) every weekend once they pass off peacefully? Once the army is on stand by somewhere out of sight, so as not to upset anyone?

karma_

Laminations wrote: »

Morpheus, similar question. Should we allow paramilitary displays (gunshots, salutes, flag waving and balaclavas) every weekend once they pass off peacefully? Once the army is on stand by somewhere out of sight, so as not to upset anyone?

This is a hypothetical argument that is not a problem and therefore irrelevant.

Laminations

karma_ wrote: »

For any number of reasons, not least the fact that funerals are emotive situations and forcing a confrontation that could result in catastrophic consequences when success is not even guaranteed.

Also, it's bad form to interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake. I'm sure the intelligence gathered at the funeral is worth far more in the long run and more damaging to the dissidents. It has already been pointed out that arrests which are potentially connected to this have already been made and weapons seized.

So you think if it wasn't a funeral the crowd would be more reasonable and understanding that gardai have a job to do??

Sponge25

Laminations wrote: »

So you think if it wasn't a funeral the crowd would be more reasonable and understanding that gardai have a job to do??

Look - If someone breaks the law they have to be challenged, no matter how inconvenient it is! We can't allow people too disregard the law if we want too have any sort of society!

karma_

Laminations wrote: »

So you think if it wasn't a funeral the crowd would be more reasonable and understanding that gardai have a job to do??

Of course, I would imagine a parade to be a less emotive atmosphere.

Laminations

karma_ wrote: »

This is a hypothetical argument that is not a problem and therefore irrelevant.

Its not irrelevant. Your point is that it passed off peacefully so there's no problem. My point is that a subversive display of paramilitarism was allowed to happen and could have been prevented.

Valetta

Laminations wrote: »

So you think if it wasn't a funeral the crowd would be more reasonable and understanding that gardai have a job to do??

There isn't a funeral today and I don't see crowds of thugs going around dressed as fools and shooting guns.

Laminations

karma_ wrote: »

Of course, I would imagine a parade to be a less emotive atmosphere.

Yeah that's how it usually is with sectarian parades.... Not emotive at all. I'm sure the skin headed gun toting supporters would turn into veritable gentlemen with the utmost respect for the gardai.

karma_

Laminations wrote: »

Its not irrelevant. Your point is that it passed off peacefully so there's no problem. My point is that a subversive display of paramilitarism was allowed to happen and could have been prevented.

Hold up there, I never said it was not a problem, and neither has anyone in this thread. I am saying that the Gardai made the best decision they could possibly have done under such circumstances.

Laminations

Valetta wrote: »

There isn't a funeral today and I don't see crowds of thugs going around dressed as fools and shooting guns.

?

My question is, if there was a paramilitary parade today or next week would you have a problem with it proceeding unabated?

Laminations

karma_ wrote: »

Hold up there, I never said it was not a problem, and neither has anyone in this thread. I am saying that the Gardai made the best decision they could possibly have done under such circumstances.

So the best decision for the future is to allow any and all subversive displays to go ahead once there's some possibility of violence if the gardai intervene?

karma_

Laminations wrote: »

?

My question is, if there was a paramilitary parade today or next week would you have a problem with it proceeding unabated?

If?

We are debating something that has actually happened and the response to it, not some imagined scenario that has not or ever has happened.

karma_

Laminations wrote: »

So the best decision for the future is to allow any and all subversive displays to go ahead once there's some possibility of violence if the gardai intervene?

I'll leave that decision to the security forces.

snafuk35

Laminations wrote: »

So the best decision for the future is to allow any and all subversive displays to go ahead once there's some possibility of violence if the gardai intervene?

Frankly yes.
You have already been told by posters on this thread and the Garda Commissioner has spoken to the media on this point.
The situation at the funeral was volatile.
Intervening would needlessly have lead to serious disorder, serious injuries and possibly deaths.
The people attending the funeral were photographed and videoed and the people who made the paramilitary display will be identified and arrested later.

JustinDee

Laminations wrote: »

My question is, if there was a paramilitary parade today or next week would you have a problem with it proceeding unabated?

Seriously, apply a little logic here and place yourself on the street itself in a security capacity. Which is best angle to approach an extremely minor movement in a potential incendiary situation without benefitting them?

Happyman42

Laminations wrote: »

Morpheus, similar question. Should we allow paramilitary displays (gunshots, salutes, flag waving and balaclavas) every weekend once they pass off peacefully? Once the army is on stand by somewhere out of sight, so as not to upset anyone?

A little history might be in order with regard to what might happen if the Gardai used draconian tactics you are asking for.
At that funeral in Emyvale that was posted, the family and SF where told very empathically that the traditional honour party would not be allowed to pay their respects. So they simply moved the event to another location and played cat and mouse with both thr RUC and the Gardai. They chose the bridge at Emyvale and a suprised, woefully undermanned force tried to intervene.
That is why the incident with the squad car ending in the river and the Special Branch guy accidently letting off a round occured. (he almost shot his colleague in the head) in the confusion.
They now have more sense than to intervene, it will never end well for anybody concerned because events like funerals are emotive, even for people you view as scum.
We all need to face up to the fact that this is and always will be an island where a significant minority will have issues with the situation in the north and deal with that, the root cause. This is a visible symptom of a wider problem, it's the invisible rise of new, equally committed militants that we need to concern ourselves with. Playing patsy with sensation seeking, sales motivated hack journalists isn't gonna do one thing to stall the rise in disaffected republicans. As somebody else pointed out this is a cycical process, the problem isn't going to go away.
The guy is dead, allow him to be buried in peace. No big deal. It is not as if a decree from the gardai on conduct at funerals is going to have any effect. The people with power have to do the hard work here.

Laminations

Happyman42 wrote: »

A little history might be in order with regard to what might happen if the Gardai used draconian tactics you are asking for.

So crowd control is now a draconian tactic?

At that funeral in Emyvale that was posted, the family and SF where told very empathically that the traditional honour party would not be allowed to pay their respects. So they simply moved the event to another location and played cat and mouse with both thr RUC and the Gardai. They chose the bridge at Emyvale and a suprised, woefully undermanned force tried to intervene.
That is why the incident with the squad car ending in the river and the Special Branch guy accidently letting off a round occured. (he almost shot his colleague in the head) in the confusion.

So because the gardai have previously been surprised, undermanned and unprepared, they should not now or ever again try to stop paramilitarism at a funeral? With the aid of the Irish Army they could have screened people entering the area.

They now have more sense than to intervene, it will never end well for anybody concerned because events like funerals are emotive, even for people you view as scum.

I wouldn't use that word but I don't think dissident republicans or their supporters are upstanding members of the community. I'd have no problem with them having a funeral (even if the church will bury unrepented killers) once they don't turn it into a paramilitary quasi-political message.

We all need to face up to the fact that this is and always will be an island where a significant minority will have issues with the situation in the north and deal with that, the root cause. This is a visible symptom of a wider problem, it's the invisible rise of new, equally committed militants that we need to concern ourselves with. Playing patsy with sensation seeking, sales motivated hack journalists isn't gonna do one thing to stall the rise in disaffected republicans. As somebody else pointed out this is a cycical process, the problem isn't going to go away.

There is a political peace process that was almost unamimously accepted by the people in the republic. A significant minority might still have issues with the north but even most of them accept a political non-violent way forward is best. Dissidents are subversive, self-serving and bloody minded. I'm not really inclined to consider the feelings of these disaffected few as they continue to unleash bloody mayhem on the streets of Ireland.

The guy is dead, allow him to be buried in peace.

Fine. If they had the intention of burying him in peace they shouldnt have been dressing up as army soldiers and firing guns. I dont think society should have to allow him be buried as if he were a state hero. There is only one army of Ireland.

Scofflaw

Note that comments like "boo hoo!" and other forms of welcoming people's deaths are not acceptable.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Laminations

JustinDee wrote: »

Seriously, apply a little logic here and place yourself on the street itself in a security capacity. Which is best angle to approach an extremely minor movement in a potential incendiary situation without benefitting them?

It depends how dangerous and incendiary their message is. There is a disillusioned unemployed undereducated youth in this country who are looking for a cause, looking for something to galvanise them and channel their anger. My point is that preparedness and crowd control should have meant the situation shouldn't have gotten to the point of being volatile. Definitely interference with the crowd at the funeral would have escalated (and possibly been a trigger point for galvanising support for dissidents). It should never have been allowed get to a position where the gardai could not act. I cannot see how proper crowd control would have benefitted them, it would've inconvenienced them but in small enough groups to be manageable. Also i would think its best To challenge and discredit the movement while it's minor rather than let them spread their message freely.

Additionally yes the media could have completely ignored it, but ive been told a few times, they gotsta sell papers.

SaoriseBiker

Tellingly a few here direct most of their concern and anger for the state not putting more effort into preventing people dressed in military clothes instead of finding the murderer of this man.

SocSocPol

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Tellingly a few here direct most of their concern and anger for the state not putting more effort into preventing people dressed in military clothes instead of finding the murderer of this man.

Perhaps because most posters recognise that the greater threat to the state is from the likes of these organized crime gangs who masquerade as "freedom fighters". Alan Ryan was a leader in an organized crime gang, he live and drew his power from terror,the state owes it to decent law abiding people to do all possible to ensure the other criminals in his gang are not allowed to arrange a public show of force especially one that involves gangsters firing guns in public in a residential area.

Happyman42

Laminations wrote: »

So crowd control is now a draconian tactic?

To those attempting to bury the man....yes.

So because the gardai have previously been surprised, undermanned and unprepared, they should not now or ever again try to stop paramilitarism at a funeral? With the aid of the Irish Army they could have screened people entering the area.

To achieve what exactly? They would have done it elsewhere. Does the fact that it takes place in private or less in the glare of the media appease you?

I wouldn't use that word but I don't think dissident republicans or their supporters are upstanding members of the community. I'd have no problem with them having a funeral (even if the church will bury unrepented killers) once they don't turn it into a paramilitary quasi-political message.



There is a political peace process that was almost unamimously accepted by the people in the republic. A significant minority might still have issues with the north but even most of them accept a political non-violent way forward is best. Dissidents are subversive, self-serving and bloody minded. I'm not really inclined to consider the feelings of these disaffected few as they continue to unleash bloody mayhem on the streets of Ireland.

It is clear to anybody who looks at the truth of the situation that there is an idealistic and committed group who will seek the unification of the country, no amount of name calling will change that. What are you going to do about it, is the real question.

Fine. If they had the intention of burying him in peace they shouldnt have been dressing up as army soldiers and firing guns. I dont think society should have to allow him be buried as if he were a state hero. There is only one army of Ireland.

They think differently. Again, what solutions have you other than wipe them out or violently suppress. Those mistakes where made before and look where it got us.