Gardai (and Shatter) failed to enforce the law at RIRA funeral

Laminations

@Happyman42

Laminations wrote: »

What is your opinion? Is the north under occupation? Should we accept the partition of Ireland until its resolved via the mechanisms in the GFA?

SaoriseBiker

Laminations wrote: »

So they are on a quest to rid the country of British 'occupation' but when a resolution emerges to do that peacefully, they don't sign up for it? And you think they will grow in strength after the overwhelming majority did accept this resolution? Bonkers

If the "overwhelming majority" were allowed to democratically pursue their aims their would have been a peaceful resolution long ago. Looks like the RIRA are just taking one out of your British friends book and carrying out violence regardless.

Happyman42

Monty Burnz wrote: »

But you have not offered any solution other than to concede to their demands - which is a united Ireland. This 'solution' is not on the table.

What do you propose the democrats talk about with them then?

I don't have the 'solution'. And I freely admit that I didn't have the 'solution' that the GFA provided either. But a solution was there, and I don't see any so called 'democrats' vested with power, looking for one now, which is their responsibility. What I see are 'misguided solutions' designed to further entrench and pointlessly suppress.

Monty Burnz

Happyman42 wrote: »

I don't have the 'solution'. And I freely admit that I didn't have the 'solution' that the GFA provided either. But a solution was there, and I don't see any so called 'democrats' vested with power, looking for one now, which is their responsibility. What I see are 'misguided solutions' designed to further entrench and pointlessly suppress.

A solution was there because the moderate republicans saw that compromise was necessary. Those that refused compromise formed the dissident groups.

How do you compromise with people who refuse to compromise?

Monty Burnz

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

your British friends

I love the notion that this is meant as an insult. On another forum somewhere, someone like you is using 'your black friends' with the exact same intention.

Happyman42

Laminations wrote: »

@Happyman42

Irrelevant to the discussion, but for the record, I support and voted for the GFA.

I'm out folks, I made my point over and over again. I have been accused and deflected over and over again. Pity, because it could have been an interesting discussion if the Daily Mail type shrillness could have been kept out of it. Good luck.

Monty Burnz

Happyman42 wrote: »

Irrelevant to the discussion, but for the record, I support and voted for the GFA.

I'm out folks, I made my point over and over again. I have been accused and deflected over and over again. Pity, because it could have been an interesting discussion if the Daily Mail type shrillness could have been kept out of it. Good luck.

It's a pity that our 'Daily Mail' style expectation that you would clarify apparent contradictions and gaps in your posts has scared you off.

HoggyRS

Happyman42 wrote: »

We are discussing the RIRA, who didn't sign up to the GFA. The GFA therefore is irrelevant in a discussion about how to deal with the RIRA.

They only came into existence because of the GFA.

SaoriseBiker

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I love the notion that this is meant as an insult. On another forum somewhere, someone like you is using 'your black friends' with the exact same intention.

Wow :eek:, we are sensitive aren't we But would you not agree that the RIRA are just taking one out of your British friends book and carrying out violence regardless ?

Monty Burnz

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Wow :eek:, we are sensitive aren't we But would you not agree that the RIRA are just taking one out of your British friends book and carrying out violence regardless ?

Not sensitive, just amused. But to answer your question, my British friends have never carried out any violence as far as I know.

JustinDee

Happyman42 wrote: »

We are discussing the RIRA, who didn't sign up to the GFA. The GFA therefore is irrelevant in a discussion about how to deal with the RIRA.

When some anonymous internet moniker claims they were "left behind" following the Good Friday Agreement, it is not irrelevant at all. They weren't left out. They lost out in a democratic show of hands and should accept what the majority wants on this island.
According to you, Fianna Fail, the left parties, the Shinners etc and supporters all got "left behind" following the last election.

Craptacular

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

would you not agree that the RIRA are just taking one out of your British friends book and carrying out violence regardless ?

Sad times when self-professed Irish Republicans are citing the British as their example and moral compass.

I'd be more inclined to say they are following the example of the other criminal gangs.

Einhard

*seems to remember a point when this thread was about a specific public order incident and not about the legitimacy of the dissident cause or partition or the Brits or whatever else you're having...*

SaoriseBiker

Craptacular wrote: »

Sad times when self-professed Irish Republicans are citing the British as their example and moral compass.

I'd be more inclined to say they are following the example of the other criminal gangs.

Beats me how you can somehow deduce that I cited the Brits as my examples and my moral compass . Just pointing out that the RIRA are just taking one out of the Brits book, ignoring the "overwhelming majority" and carrying out violence regardless. Ofcourse it's only wrong when the RIRA do it with some, while the elephant in the room is as always ignored.

Monty Burnz

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Beats me how you can somehow deduce that I cited the Brits as my examples and my moral compass . Just pointing out that the RIRA are just taking one out of the Brits book, ignoring the "overwhelming majority" and carrying out violence regardless. Ofcourse it's only wrong when the RIRA do it with some, while the elephant in the room is as always ignored.

Just on a point of information: when did 'the Brits' ignore the overwhelming majority in NI?

SaoriseBiker

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Just on a point of information: when did 'the Brits' ignore the overwhelming majority in NI?

The creation of the NI statelet is ignoring the overwhelming majority, anything else is only pedantic time wasting.

Monty Burnz

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

The creation of the NI statelet is ignoring the overwhelming majority, anything else is only pedantic time wasting.

Um...no it isn't. The overwhelming majority there always wanted to remain part of the UK. Anything else is only delusional dreaming.

SaoriseBiker

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Um...no it isn't. The overwhelming contrived majority there always wanted to remain part of the UK. Anything else is only delusional dreaming.

Fixed for ya

(BTW, Monaghan, Donegal and Cavan were also included in the Ulster Covenant, drop the delusional dreaming )

Monty Burnz

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Fixed for ya

(BTW, Monaghan, Donegal and Cavan were also included in the Ulster Covenant, drop the delusional dreaming )

So the overwhelming majority of the people in the NI statelet to which you specifically referred did not wish to remain part of the UK?

SaoriseBiker

Monty Burnz wrote: »

So the overwhelming majority of the people in the NI statelet to which you specifically referred did not wish to remain part of the UK?

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Black Swan

MOD WARNING:
Please focus on making meaningful contributions to the discussion of the thread topic, and not each other. Further, there were several substandard posts, as well as off-topic. Please do not persist in these posting behaviours here, or anyplace else on this forum.

Laminations

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Beats me how you can somehow deduce that I cited the Brits as my examples and my moral compass . Just pointing out that the RIRA are just taking one out of the Brits book, ignoring the "overwhelming majority" and carrying out violence regardless.

Eh, NI was created and maintained through the democratic will of the people, from the first Collins brokered Anglo-Irish treaty which was put to the people, through to the GFA which keeps the country partitioned until a majority in both north and south vote for reunification. Now the time before that definitely involved the Brits ignoring the majority in Ireland, so maybe thats what you're referring to if you're one of those types of republicans that bang that '800 years of opression' drum. Notwithstanding that I do not approve British actions during the 20th century in Ireland. They were oppressive, discriminatory, murderous and not very democratic for the minority Catholics.

Ofcourse it's only wrong when the RIRA do it with some, while the elephant in the room is as always ignored.

No it's wrong when anyone does it. Usually when someone trots out that criticism it's them that holds the one-sided view and they are trying to strawman their opponents who've made it abundantly clear that they condemn violent abandonment of democracy.

Mr Cumulonimbus

Laminations wrote: »

Eh, NI was created and maintained through the democratic will of the people, from the first Collins brokered Anglo-Irish treaty

Not correct.

NI came into existence in May 1921, as a result of the Government of Ireland Act of 1920 coming into force, which was 7 months before Collins signed the Anglo-Irish Treaty in December 1921, and even before a truce was called in July 1921 between the British and the IRA.

NI was a fait accompli before Collins actually got to London to negotiate on behalf of those who wished for independence.

Armaghmagic

What has this got to do with The Gardaí failing to enforce the law at Alan Ryan's funeral??

Fair play to them for arresting 17 people but I reckon its just a PR stunt and they will be released......hope not.

Sunnyisland

Armagh Magic wrote: »

What has this got to do with The Gardaí failing to enforce the law at Alan Ryan's funeral??

Fair play to them for arresting 17 people but I reckon its just a PR stunt and they will be released......hope not.

Its gone way of topic now,as these sort of threads do.

I agree it was more a publicity stunt than anything else,there was even a Evening herald photographer there to take pictures of it happening :rolleyes:Saturdays Funeral was a huge publicity coup for the RIRA and showed a defiance to the state not seen in years.

Laminations

Armaghmagic wrote: »

Fair play to them for arresting 17 people but I reckon its just a PR stunt and they will be released......hope not.

Possibly. Have any charges been brought?

Dr Galen

Black Swan has already asked for posters to stay OT, this is now the last warning. Any further OT sidetracking will result in Infractions.

If you feel a topic deserves discussion, then by all means start a new thread

Cheers

DrG

tayto lover

realies wrote: »

Its gone way of topic now,as these sort of threads do.

I agree it was more a publicity stunt than anything else,there was even a Evening herald photographer there to take pictures of it happening :rolleyes:Saturdays Funeral was a huge publicity coup for the RIRA and showed a defiance to the state not seen in years.

I don't think that the Garda would be into publicity stunts. They made a decision not to intervene for the greater good i.e. to prevent injuries to mourners. I am sure they had cameras hidden in close proximity to these people and as a result were able to identify and arrest them later. Wise decision in my view.

I have often wondered how the Press were always around so soon after Border incidents in my area over the years of the troubles but after the scandals in England with the News of the World I am sure they use similar methods here.

Ash.J.Williams

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't think that the Garda would be into publicity stunts. They made a decision not to intervene for the greater good i.e. to prevent injuries to mourners. I am sure they had cameras hidden in close proximity to these people and as a result were able to identify and arrest them later. Wise decision in my view.

I have often wondered how the Press were always around so soon after Border incidents in my area over the years of the troubles but after the scandals in England with the News of the World I am sure they use similar methods here.

maybe it's easier to inform the media and have designated reporters trained in the art of "not getting in the way" then having hacks following them around messing things up...

or maybe it was just obvious the gardai were gonna strike at ryans house this week and the paps played a waiting game.

Laminations

2 released, no mention of charges. 14 men and 1 woman left.

fasttalkerchat

Laminations wrote: »

2 released, no mention of charges. 14 men and 1 woman left.

Are Alans parents still being held? I heard that they were taken from the house in handcuffs after a raid. His brothers were arrested too.

Sunnyisland

Just for the info

Three men, who were being questioned in connection with the investigation into criminal activity at the funeral of Alan Ryan, are to face charges of membership of an illegal organisation.
The three are being detained at Garda Stations in Dublin city centre and are due before the Special Criminal Court in the morning.
The men are 33, 23 and 22-years-old.
Earlier, fourteen males were released without charge. ...


http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0914/ryan-funeral-dublin.html

Laminations

Are their names Vincent, Eoin and Dermot?

SaoriseBiker

realies wrote: »

Just for the info

Three men, who were being questioned in connection with the investigation into criminal activity at the funeral of Alan Ryan, are to face charges of membership of an illegal organisation.
The three are being detained at Garda Stations in Dublin city centre and are due before the Special Criminal Court in the morning.
The men are 33, 23 and 22-years-old.
Earlier, fourteen males were released without charge. ...


http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0914/ryan-funeral-dublin.html

Seen that countless times during the troubles. Don't be surprised if the pattern follows - arrests ...... charges arising from the arrests........ charges are then quietly dropped a few months later.

JustinDee

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Seen that countless times during the troubles. Don't be surprised if the pattern follows - arrests ...... charges arising from the arrests........ charges are then quietly dropped a few months later.

Wishful thinking on your part.
They'll be charged and the charges will be followed up with sentences. Rightfully so.

Dyr

realies wrote: »

Just for the info

Three men, who were being questioned in connection with the investigation into criminal activity at the funeral of Alan Ryan, are to face charges of membership of an illegal organisation.
The three are being detained at Garda Stations in Dublin city centre and are due before the Special Criminal Court in the morning.
The men are 33, 23 and 22-years-old.
Earlier, fourteen males were released without charge. ...


http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0914/ryan-funeral-dublin.html

Back to the good old days of round ups for the sake of the media, and charging people for an offence that a court can convict them of with only the opinion of a copper offered as evidence. You'd never guess fine gael were back in power :pac:

Laminations

Bambi wrote: »

Back to the good old days of round ups for the sake of the media, and charging people for an offence that a court can convict them of with only the opinion of a copper offered as evidence. You'd never guess fine gael were back in power :pac:

Firstly the men are involved in criminality and terrorism and are alleged members of an illegal organisation which impersonates the armed forces and fires live ammunition in public (from semi- automatic weapons). This group is also implicated in numerous murders. It's not like they are teenagers being sent down for shooting a starting pistol or letting off a firework.

Secondly they won't be convicted merely on the back of Garda testimony. It will be down to surveillance and intelligence gathered, equipment seized during the recent raids and information gained from the police questioning of the 16/17 people. There's no honour among thieves and that's all this lot are.

Laminations

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Seen that countless times during the troubles. Don't be surprised if the pattern follows - arrests ...... charges arising from the arrests........ charges are then quietly dropped a few months later.

They've already gone before the special criminal court.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0915/breaking2.html

The law, it's not gone away you know

junder

Bambi wrote: »

realies wrote: »

Just for the info

Three men, who were being questioned in connection with the investigation into criminal activity at the funeral of Alan Ryan, are to face charges of membership of an illegal organisation.
The three are being detained at Garda Stations in Dublin city centre and are due before the Special Criminal Court in the morning.
The men are 33, 23 and 22-years-old.
Earlier, fourteen males were released without charge. ...


http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0914/ryan-funeral-dublin.html

Back to the good old days of round ups for the sake of the media, and charging people for an offence that a court can convict them of with only the opinion of a copper offered as evidence. You'd never guess fine gael were back in power :pac:

By arresting them they have 'red lighted' them which means thier effectiveness is deminshed. Moreover it also cast suspicion on the arresty that's released without charge since it could mean they have turned tout, does not matter if it's true or not just casting doubt can be damage enough

SaoriseBiker

Laminations wrote: »

They've already gone before the special criminal court.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0915/breaking2.html

The law, it's not gone away you know

Their before the special criminal court, so what ? Meanwhile the murderer of Alan Ryan is walking about to probably sell more drugs and kill someone, priorites and justice Gombeen state style. And of course other criminals will be ignored by the Sunday Independent ' nationalists ' such as the banksters and their Fianna Fail facilitators, child molesters in the Catholic church etc

junder wrote: »

By arresting them they have 'red lighted' them which means thier effectiveness is deminshed. Moreover it also cast suspicion on the arresty that's released without charge since it could mean they have turned tout, does not matter if it's true or not just casting doubt can be damage enough

I'll give you odds on that the RIRA are stronger and have more street cred now in Dublin than they ever had.

( And I repeat, I'm not a RIRA supporter. )

Ash.J.Williams

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Their before the special criminal court, so what ? Meanwhile the murderer of Alan Ryan is walking about to probably sell more drugs and kill someone, priorites and justice Gombeen state style. And of course other criminals will be ignored by the Sunday Independent ' nationalists ' such as the banksters and their Fianna Fail facilitators, child molesters in the Catholic church etc


I'll give you odds on that the RIRA are stronger and have more street cred now in Dublin than they ever had.

( And I repeat, I'm not a RIRA supporter. )

street cred amongst idiots

Dyr

Laminations wrote: »

Firstly the men are involved in criminality and terrorism and are alleged members of an illegal organisation which impersonates the armed forces and fires live ammunition in public (from semi- automatic weapons). This group is also implicated in numerous murders. It's not like they are teenagers being sent down for shooting a starting pistol or letting off a firework.

Secondly they won't be convicted merely on the back of Garda testimony. It will be down to surveillance and intelligence gathered, equipment seized during the recent raids and information gained from the police questioning of the 16/17 people. There's no honour among thieves and that's all this lot are.

Do me a favour and back up the assortment of allegations you've made there. Just to help you you've alleged:

the people who have been charged are criminals and terrorists, that's actually tautology but that's your problem. which would imply that they have been previously convicted os such offences. Proof of convictions please
they have also been convicted of theft. Proof of conviction please.
that you're privy to the details of whatever case the DPP have built

while you're at it, maybe you would like to deny that the offences against the state acts allow for a garda's opinion alone to suffice as proof of membership of a proscribed organisation.

off ya go.

junder

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Laminations wrote: »

They've already gone before the special criminal court.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0915/breaking2.html

The law, it's not gone away you know

Their before the special criminal court, so what ? Meanwhile the murderer of Alan Ryan is walking about to probably sell more drugs and kill someone, priorites and justice Gombeen state style. And of course other criminals will be ignored by the Sunday Independent ' nationalists ' such as the banksters and their Fianna Fail facilitators, child molesters in the Catholic church etc

junder wrote: »

By arresting them they have 'red lighted' them which means thier effectiveness is deminshed. Moreover it also cast suspicion on the arresty that's released without charge since it could mean they have turned tout, does not matter if it's true or not just casting doubt can be damage enough

I'll give you odds on that the RIRA are stronger and have more street cred now in Dublin than they ever had.

( And I repeat, I'm not a RIRA supporter. )

Regardless of what 'street cred' they may or may not have by being lifted by the police they have been compromised, thier ablity to take part in clandestine operations has been restricted. Even in the days of PIRA, any pira member brought in by the police was generally retired and sent to El paso (Dundalk), that's providing they were able to convince the internal security unit (scap and his boys) that they had not let anything slip during interrogation

Ash.J.Williams

I think his killer needs to be caught. It's suspicious how the drug gangs are being blamed without question. What if it wasn't them?

SaoriseBiker

junder wrote: »

Regardless of what 'street cred' they may or may not have by being lifted by the police they have been compromised, thier ablity to take part in clandestine operations has been restricted. Even in the days of PIRA, any pira member brought in by the police was generally retired and sent to El paso (Dundalk), that's providing they were able to convince the internal security unit (scap and his boys) that they had not let anything slip during interrogation

If been arrested or harassed by the police or Brits put IRA men into " retirment " as you put it, the IRA would have been defeated before 1916 If anything, they up their game. Been arrested by the police would be regarded as just an occupational hazzard by Republicans, they'd take it with a slight shrug of the shoulders.

( As for Scap, let's not go off topic with conspiracy theory's of which their's not a shred of proof )

junder

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

junder wrote: »

Regardless of what 'street cred' they may or may not have by being lifted by the police they have been compromised, thier ablity to take part in clandestine operations has been restricted. Even in the days of PIRA, any pira member brought in by the police was generally retired and sent to El paso (Dundalk), that's providing they were able to convince the internal security unit (scap and his boys) that they had not let anything slip during interrogation

If been arrested or harassed by the police or Brits put IRA men into " retirment " as you put it, the IRA would have been defeated before 1916 If anything, they up their game. Been arrested by the police would be regarded as just an occupational hazzard by Republicans, they'd take it with a slight shrug of the shoulders.

( As for Scap, let's not go off topic with conspiracy theory's of which their's not a shred of proof )

There is no conspiracy theory about the ira's internal securty unit, you got interrogated by the police you then got interrogated by the internal securty unit if you didn't convince them you said nothing at best you went to Dundalk worse you ended up on a border road with a ventilated bin liner over your head. Why do you think Dundalk got the name el paso?

ColeTrain

Bambi wrote: »

Do me a favour and back up the assortment of allegations you've made there. Just to help you you've alleged:

the people who have been charged are criminals and terrorists, that's actually tautology but that's your problem. which would imply that they have been previously convicted os such offences. Proof of convictions please
they have also been convicted of theft. Proof of conviction please.
that you're privy to the details of whatever case the DPP have built

while you're at it, maybe you would like to deny that the offences against the state acts allow for a garda's opinion alone to suffice as proof of membership of a proscribed organisation.

off ya go.

He doesn't need to back up anything, He is representing the holier than thou brigade.

Shots fired over a coffin? What's the country coming to..

Laminations

ColeTrain wrote: »

He doesn't need to back up anything, He is representing the holier than thou brigade.

Shots fired over a coffin? What's the country coming to..

Are you serious? you're aware this thread is about RIRA?
It's not hard to claim you are holier than RIRA

This RIRA:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Real_Irish_Republican_Army_actions#_

Alan Ryan was a convicted terrorist and alleged leader of a RIRA faction. His brother Anthony is also a convicted terrorist and Vincent has attended rallies with them in the past. His family never distanced themselves from his activities and did not apologise for the paramilitary republican display at his funeral, which suggests they support that type of thing. The men were arrested on suspicion of membership of an illegal organisation - one which has been implicated in far more serious offences than firing a gun over a coffin. The arrests were made on the back of surveillance and evidence gathered in raids.

Trivialising paramilitary displays suggests to me you are sympathetic to their cause....and methods, like a few other people on this thread.

MagicSean

Bambi wrote: »

while you're at it, maybe you would like to deny that the offences against the state acts allow for a garda's opinion alone to suffice as proof of membership of a proscribed organisation.

Could you state the section you are referring to?

walshb

Fratton Fred wrote: »

In an ideal world, yes, but starting a battle in a residential area would have ended badly.

The sooner people stop supporting these illegitimate organisations the better. These ***** talk about sovereignty, yet blatantly ignored the laws Ireland.

Agreed. Had the Gardai acted there could well have been a bloodbath.