Fixed Lease becoming Part 4 Tenancy

We signed a fixed lease for a year in February 2011. In February 2012 our landlord insisted we sign another fixed lease for another year. My friend told me I didn't have to sign the second lease that I automatically had a Part 4 Tenancy after 6 months.

We don't want to sign another fixed lease for a year next February 2013 as we'll be house hunting in the new year and want the flexibility to leave (giving the correct notice to our landlord) when/if we do decide to buy.

I can see on the Citizens Information site that:

Any tenancy, therefore, that has lasted more than 6 months is a 'Part 4 tenancy' or a 'further Part 4 tenancy'.

But does this still apply even though we've signed two fixed term leases?

Our landlord is a little eccentric and we're just a bit worried that if we refuse to sign her next lease for another full year, that she'll just say "no lease at all then".

Thanks!

murphaph

Deleted User wrote: »

Our landlord is a little eccentric and we're just a bit worried that if we refuse to sign her next lease for another full year, that she'll just say "no lease at all then".

She can't just turf you out. You have a Part IV tenancy. She can only seek possession under limited circumstances and in this case the only likely way she could do so was if she could prove (to the PRTB in the first instance and to a court in the second) that she needed the property for her or an immediate family member's use.

This process in itself would take months before the first hearing, so you're fine. If you don't want to sign a new lease, you don't have to. Just be up front with her and give her as much notice as you possibly can, so she has a fair chance at finding new tenants in time.

Thanks Murph. I knew we would be protected under Part 4, I just wasn't sure if the fact that we'd signed fixed term leases affected the 6 month period you have to be renting to become Part 4.

We've every intention of playing fair with the landlord. We'll give them the notice that we intend to stay under Part 4 (there's a sample letter on Citizens Information) in good time and we'll give plenty of notice when/if we decide to leave.

Thanks again!

Corrimbla

On a similar note I know two guys that just signed a 12 month lease but may be moving to Canada in 5 months. Are they intitiled to get their full deposit back if in the case where they do need to give notice in 5 months and give the appropriate notice period und the PRTB guidelines? Seems to be a grey area I think.

sunnysoutheast

Corrimbla wrote: »

On a similar note I know two guys that just signed a 12 month lease but may be moving to Canada in 5 months. Are they intitiled to get their full deposit back if in the case where they do need to give notice in 5 months and give the appropriate notice period und the PRTB guidelines? Seems to be a grey area I think.

Not à grey area at all. They will have to comply with terms of their lease but they may be able to reassign it. I assume ir has no break clause.

Corrimbla

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Not à grey area at all. They will have to comply with terms of their lease but they may be able to reassign it. I assume ir has no break clause.

Under the PRTB guideline a lease under 6 months can be terminated with 28 days notice so wouldn't this nulify any longer duration if applicable i.e. a 12 month lease?

Raladic

Corrimbla wrote: »

Under the PRTB guideline a lease under 6 months can be terminated with 28 days notice so wouldn't this nulify any longer duration if applicable i.e. a 12 month lease?

But you also have to value a contract signed, so if that contract (lease) is for 1 year, then you have to uphold that.

sunnysoutheast

Corrimbla wrote: »

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Not à grey area at all. They will have to comply with terms of their lease but they may be able to reassign it. I assume ir has no break clause.

Under the PRTB guideline a lease under 6 months can be terminated with 28 days notice so wouldn't this nulify any longer duration if applicable i.e. a 12 month lease?

No, if a 12 month lease was signed.

Corrimbla

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

No, if a 12 month lease was signed.

Then whats the point of the PRTB notice period so? If a landlord can terminate a lease for valid PRTB reasons then surely it works both ways.

I checked this with a chartered property surveyor this evening and was told as long as the PRTB guidelines are fully aheard to then it does not matter what the fixed term is. The fixed term lease is subject to the PRTB guidelines and cannot overide its leglisation weither a fixed term contract is signed or not.

sunnysoutheast

Corrimbla wrote: »

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

No, if a 12 month lease was signed.

Then whats the point of the PRTB notice period so? If a landlord can terminate a lease for valid PRTB reasons then surely it works both ways.

I checked this with a chartered property surveyor this evening and was told as long as the PRTB guidelines are fully aheard to then it does not matter what the fixed
term is. The fixed term lease is subject to the PRTB guidelines and cannot overide its leglisation weither a fixed term contract is signed or not.

The landlord is subject to the fixed term too. A fixed term means what it says. Very rare to have a part 4 lease from the start.

Options are to negotiate or assign the lease to other tenants.

Your surveyor is not correct in this instance.

Milk & Honey

Corrimbla wrote: »

Then whats the point of the PRTB notice period so? If a landlord can terminate a lease for valid PRTB reasons then surely it works both ways.

I checked this with a chartered property surveyor this evening and was told as long as the PRTB guidelines are fully aheard to then it does not matter what the fixed term is. The fixed term lease is subject to the PRTB guidelines and cannot overide its leglisation weither a fixed term contract is signed or not.

Check with a lawyer next time. There are no PRTB guidelines. There is the Residential Tenancies Act with stipulate times. The lease cannot reduce the protection provided by the RTA but can and often does increase it.

Corrimbla

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Check with a lawyer next time. There are no PRTB guidelines. There is the Residential Tenancies Act with stipulate times. The lease cannot reduce the protection provided by the RTA but can and often does increase it.

Thanks for that. I read the act, under Part 9 186 it states that if the landlords withholds consent for an assignment then an appropriate notice period can be issued regardless of the duration of the fixed term. So if they find somebody to take over the lease (and they should its in the city centre) and the landlords say "yes" then great they are out of it and if he says "no" they just give the appropriate notice. Thanks for all the input guys!

sunnysoutheast

Corrimbla wrote: »

Thanks for that. I read the act, under Part 9 186 it states that if the landlords withholds consent for an assignment then an appropriate notice period can be issued regardless of the duration of the fixed term. So if they find somebody to take over the lease (and they should its in the city centre) and the landlords say "yes" then great they are out of it and if he says "no" they just give the appropriate notice. Thanks for all the input guys!

Bear in mind that any prospective new tenants would have to be acceptable to the landlord, in practice I believe this means that they would have to pass the same referencing criteria as the original tenants.

Raladic

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Bear in mind that any prospective new tenants would have to be acceptable to the landlord, in practice I believe this means that they would have to pass the same referencing criteria as the original tenants.

If the landlord doesn't accept the assignment of the prospective tenant, then it's an automatic get-out-clause for the current tenant.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/landlords_rights_and_obligations.html

Landlord obligations:
Decide whether to allow the tenant to sub-let or assign a tenancy (however if you refuse to allow a tenant to assign or sublet a tenancy this refusal can gives the tenant the right to terminate a fixed-term tenancy before its expiry date)

sunnysoutheast

Raladic wrote: »

If the landlord doesn't accept the assignment of the prospective tenant, then it's an automatic get-out-clause for the current tenant.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/landlords_rights_and_obligations.html

Is that "can give" or "gives"??

There was a thread on this topic a while back, the upshot being that the prospective tenants would have to be acceptable to the landlord. Found this on landlordsonline.ie:

"If the landlord consents, he is entitled to approve the new tenants but he must be reasonable in his approach for approval. In this way, the primary tenant will be responsible for finding an alternative tenant and must continue to pay the rent pending this."

I'd be interested in seeing any concrete evidence one way or the other TBH!

Raladic

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Is that "can give" or "gives"??


There was a thread on this topic a while back, the upshot being that the prospective tenants would have to be acceptable to the landlord. Found this on landlordsonline.ie:


"If the landlord consents, he is entitled to approve the new tenants but he must be reasonable in his approach for approval. In this way, the primary tenant will be responsible for finding an alternative tenant and must continue to pay the rent pending this."

I'd be interested in seeing any concrete evidence one way or the other TBH!

I just quoted citizeninfo (the typo).

If you want evicence, then here is the Residential Tenancies Act, which is is equally straightforward and the landlord has no choice in pickings, if the current tenant finds a new prospective tenant to step in, then the landlord has to take it or if he says no, then the current tenant can just serve notice to terminate the lease.

I wouldn't trust information on "landlordsonline", which obviously may be biased to "think" what landlords are entitled to, just trust citizeninfo or the RTA itself.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/acts/2004/a2704.pdf:

RESIDENTIAL TENANCIES ACT 2004
186.
—(1) This section has effect—
(a) despite the fact that the tenancy concerned is one for a fixed period, and
(b) despite anything to the contrary in the lease or tenancy agreement concerned.
(2) If a landlord of a dwelling refuses his or her consent to an assignment or sub-letting of the tenancy concerned by the tenant, the tenant may serve a notice of termination in respect of the tenancy and terminate it accordingly.

sunnysoutheast

Does that not refer to the landlord refusing consent to an assignment or sub-letting in principle, rather than rejecting a specific new tenant on reasonable grounds?

Otherwise the tenant who wishes to leave can just find anybody at random who agrees to move in and this gets them off the hook for the fixed term.

Raladic

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Does that not refer to the landlord refusing consent to an assignment or sub-letting in principle, rather than rejecting a specific new tenant on reasonable grounds?

Otherwise the tenant who wishes to leave can just find anybody at random who agrees to move in and this gets them off the hook for the fixed term.

It is about refusement to an assignment OR subletting, so yes, you can just find anyone to take up your tenancy.

RESIDENTIAL TENANCIES ACT 2004
186.
—(1) This section has effect—
(a) despite the fact that the tenancy concerned is one for a fixed period, and
(b) despite anything to the contrary in the lease or tenancy agreement concerned.
(2) If a landlord of a dwelling refuses his or her consent to an assignment or sub-letting of the tenancy concerned by the tenant, the tenant may serve a notice of termination in respect of the tenancy and terminate it accordingly.

Gary The Gamer

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Does that not refer to the landlord refusing consent to an assignment or sub-letting in principle, rather than rejecting a specific new tenant on reasonable grounds?

Otherwise the tenant who wishes to leave can just find anybody at random who agrees to move in and this gets them off the hook for the fixed term.

Exactly. That is the law as stated. Just tell the landlord you have anto and deco ready to move in.