Income tax bands and exemptions

Idbatterim

In relation to the upcoming budget much focus has been given to the CPA agreement, now while im the first to condemn it, there are also other areas that I think require attention, surely there are far too many people paying far too little income or no income tax, primarily thanks to our mate Bertie?

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2012/04/10/paying-tax-in-ireland-where-the-richest-and-poorest-pay/

Farmer Pudsey

You have a point in Ireland those on low to moderate incomes pay little income tax. However if we tax them it would create an incentive to leave employment and take welfare. Bertie Ahern's led government created a situation where he ruined the tax base and also create a very generous welfare system which was grand when one could pick up a shovel and earn 650 euro's/week.

If we try to get a collect some tax from this section of society we also must reduce welfare substancially. This may be politically very hard. This is one opf the reasons that property tax is a bone of contension as the government look like they will be generous waivers for OAP and the unemployed.

JP 1800

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

You have a point in Ireland those on low to moderate incomes pay little income tax. However if we tax them it would create an incentive to leave employment and take welfare. Bertie Ahern's led government created a situation where he ruined the tax base and also create a very generous welfare system which was grand when one could pick up a shovel and earn 650 euro's/week.

If we try to get a collect some tax from this section of society we also must reduce welfare substancially. This may be politically very hard. This is one opf the reasons that property tax is a bone of contension as the government look like they will be generous waivers for OAP and the unemployed.

I am in total agreement, everyone should pay tax, even a token gesture for those on low wages. When I was earning £2 an hour in my first job I still had to pay tax and seen it as part of any employment. The welfare add-ons have become far too generous and their distribution is unfair, a system where a percentage of your wage is paid out for a set time would be fairer as the more tax you paid the more you get back in the event of unemployment i.e. a true social insurance scheme.

Count Dooku

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

You have a point in Ireland those on low to moderate incomes pay little income tax. However if we tax them it would create an incentive to leave employment and take welfare. Bertie Ahern's led government created a situation where he ruined the tax base and also create a very generous welfare system which was grand when one could pick up a shovel and earn 650 euro's/week.

This exactly what IMF thinks





http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2012/cr12265.pdf

tails_naf

In the link provided by the OP, it states that those on middle incomes receive more than those on the lowest incomes - but unfortunately it does not give a break down of this.

My guess is those in group '1' are students - so getting next to nothing from the state - while those in bands '3' and '4' are probably the 3 child family on SW.

In that light, then it makes sense that this group gets the most 'transfers', and the lower groups are really not that significant.

It also would have been useful if we could see how many people would fit into each band - as it would give a good picture of how much is really coming in / going out in each band.

The data presented by count dooku is very interesting - seems to suggest without a doubt that those on less than the average wage are significantly under-taxed here.

antoobrien

Idbatterim wrote: »

surely there are far too many people paying far too little income or no income tax

If you take a look at the 2009 income distribution figures (latest available) you'll see that about 50% of the tax base (up to 27k gross income is 49.2% of the tax base) pay about 1.8% of the income tax paid.

bbsrs

Pointless broadening the income tax net until the social welfare system is reformed . We don't need anymore incentive for people to choose SW over gainful employment. Also we need a SW system where the more you pay in while working the better you are supported for a specified period of time say two years in the event of being made unemployed. The career SW recipients are a draw on the system and a disincentive to others to take up work when they compare their lifestyles while working to the lifestyles of those on SW.
For instance take two of my friends , one girl works as a beautician and takes home 370 euro for a 40hr week and has a mortgage with her fiancé of €1000 per month .He earns €450 per week. They get no state benefits , fair enough.
The other girl is a single mum , only had paying job for 6 months of her life , gets €270 pw from SW . Recently was offered a house by SW and accepted it after refusing the first two she was offered as they weren't suitable . She was granted €2000 euro for furniture and €1800 euro for white goods . Has a medical card for her and her child. Has to pay €27 euro per month for the house and exempt from property tax. Has been on two holidays this year with family , I don't know how much the holidays cost her maybe nothing but she had the free time to choose to go. No child care to worry about , no debt to worry about . Any unforeseen expenses that arise she goes to see the CWO. She gets a €600 euro fill of oil for the central heating paid by SW , I'm not sure how frequent that is.
The girl working is now pregnant and when she goes on maternity leave she will get €282 per week and when she returns to work ,she'll have to because her fiancé only earns €450 per week, she will have to pay child care and run a car out of her €370 PW.
Looking at the two households above , the couple expecting the child would be better off financially to give up work when their baby is born.

There is something wrong with that system.

Icepick

While they may be too many people paying low income tax (relatively speaking), there all loads of other taxes and they are not progressive at all, e.g. VAT and TV license.
The number one problem is government spending, specifically public service and welfare budgets.

Scortho

Im a college student. I work 24 hours a week during college and when it comes to holidays it can be up to 70. I love shift work!:rolleyes:

Last year I earned the nice sum of 16745. My Prsi was 314 and USC was 491.
My income tax was the grand total of 48 quid.

Now bare in mind that I live at home as Im 12 miles from college.
My parents wont take rent of me or let me contribute towards food costs etc.

Only requirements are that I pay my registration charge, bus tickets, feed myself when in college (but can take from the fridge), clothe myself, pay my health insurance and that I dont ask them to put their hand in their own pocket for nights out.

I can well afford to pay more tax. Im in a position way better than that of most people who are paying tax on earnings at the higher rate. I've no childcare fees, no mortgage or rent to pay and no outstanding debts to service.

Bands for the likes of myself need to be increased.

Farmer Pudsey

Scortho wrote: »

Im a college student. I work 24 hours a week during college and when it comes to holidays it can be up to 70. I love shift work!:rolleyes:

Last year I earned the nice sum of 16745. My Prsi was 314 and USC was 491.
My income tax was the grand total of 48 quid.

Now bare in mind that I live at home as Im 12 miles from college.
My parents wont take rent of me or let me contribute towards food costs etc.

Only requirements are that I pay my registration charge, bus tickets, feed myself when in college (but can take from the fridge), clothe myself, pay my health insurance and that I dont ask them to put their hand in their own pocket for nights out.

I can well afford to pay more tax. Im in a position way better than that of most people who are paying tax on earnings at the higher rate. I've no childcare fees, no mortgage or rent to pay and no outstanding debts to service.

Bands for the likes of myself need to be increased.

I would not totally disagree however we cannot age discrimate in the tax system so take a young couple with a with house and car payments on 40 K/ year paying 6K in tax. At present you are low cost and have 15900 in income however which equates to 300 euro's/week

Your parents are giving you a free place to live and feeding you lets just imagine that you had to pay 50/week for rent and another 50 going to work.

In theory you may be right but to tax workers on low incomes we would need to reduce welfare by the same amount.

So lets sat we take another 20/week in tax off a single worker on 22K we would need to reduce the single welfare rate to 168 and for a couple on 40K with 35/week extra off them we would have to reduce the the single rate with qualifying adult to around 300 euro's I would have no argument against it

Scortho

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I would not totally disagree however we cannot age discrimate in the tax system so take a young couple with a with house and car payments on 40 K/ year paying 6K in tax. At present you are low cost and have 15900 in income however which equates to 300 euro's/week

Your parents are giving you a free place to live and feeding you lets just imagine that you had to pay 50/week for rent and another 50 going to work.

In theory you may be right but to tax workers on low incomes we would need to reduce welfare by the same amount.

So lets sat we take another 20/week in tax off a single worker on 22K we would need to reduce the single welfare rate to 168 and for a couple on 40K with 35/week extra off them we would have to reduce the the single rate with qualifying adult to around 300 euro's I would have no argument against it

I totally agree. Im just giving a prime example of a fault with the system.

It annoys people in work as I end up having more walking around money.

Then again I'm hardly going to go to the revenue and say here you go revenue I didn't pay enough tax last year!

bbsrs

Scortho wrote: »

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I would not totally disagree however we cannot age discrimate in the tax system so take a young couple with a with house and car payments on 40 K/ year paying 6K in tax. At present you are low cost and have 15900 in income however which equates to 300 euro's/week

Your parents are giving you a free place to live and feeding you lets just imagine that you had to pay 50/week for rent and another 50 going to work.

In theory you may be right but to tax workers on low incomes we would need to reduce welfare by the same amount.

So lets sat we take another 20/week in tax off a single worker on 22K we would need to reduce the single welfare rate to 168 and for a couple on 40K with 35/week extra off them we would have to reduce the the single rate with qualifying adult to around 300 euro's I would have no argument against it

I totally agree. Im just giving a prime example of a fault with the system.

It annoys people in work as I end up having more walking around money.

Then again I'm hardly going to go to the revenue and say here you go revenue I didn't pay enough tax last year!

If they bothered to look around there are a few hundred thousand more annoying cases for them to get annoyed about than you . In your case , they are just jealous of the position you are in and you're not a burden on the state just lucky enough to have parents who can give you a helping hand. You work , you study , you have a good chance at a good future. Tell them to vent their frustrations at those who can change what's wrong with the system. Although who those are in this country is difficult to see because all I can see is more of the same and no new thinking.

Farmer Pudsey

bbsrs wrote: »

If they bothered to look around there are a few hundred thousand more annoying cases for them to get annoyed about than you . In your case , they are just jealous of the position you are in and you're not a burden on the state just lucky enough to have parents who can give you a helping hand. You work , you study , you have a good chance at a good future. Tell them to vent their frustrations at those who can change what's wrong with the system. Although who those are in this country is difficult to see because all I can see is more of the same and no new thinking.

The problem with new thinking is that it is the same as some old thinking like Kyruss's job guarantee scheme. Commumisn was based on Kyruss job guarantee scheme. I am not a fan of the american model which by the way means they only have 8% unemployment.You see in the states an unemployed teacher will look for bar work or McDonalds for a job as welfare is limited by time.

KyussBishop

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The problem with new thinking is that it is the same as some old thinking like Kyruss's job guarantee scheme. Commumisn was based on Kyruss job guarantee scheme. I am not a fan of the american model which by the way means they only have 8% unemployment.You see in the states an unemployed teacher will look for bar work or McDonalds for a job as welfare is limited by time.

Heh, surprised to find mention of this/me on a completely separate thread. It's such an intellectually dishonest and lazy argument really, to compare any policy you don't like to Communism/Marxism; all it does is betray the ideological roots of the accusers position (and how easily offended they are by ideas that don't fit their ideology), rather than the person accused.

It requires a particularly vacuous and narrow-minded level of thinking, to assert that a specific policy can only have one ideological reason to support it, and that that must be Communism/Marxism; if you had done even the most minimal of reading of my posts on the subject, you'd see it was based on Modern Monetary Theory, which is in no way Marxism.

For anyone interested in the substance of the job guarantee, I made a thread on it here:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056751652

Scortho

bbsrs wrote: »

If they bothered to look around there are a few hundred thousand more annoying cases for them to get annoyed about than you . In your case , they are just jealous of the position you are in and you're not a burden on the state just lucky enough to have parents who can give you a helping hand. You work , you study , you have a good chance at a good future. Tell them to vent their frustrations at those who can change what's wrong with the system. Although who those are in this country is difficult to see because all I can see is more of the same and no new thinking.

I know. Its just an anomaly with the system. Perhaps a lower tax credit for students working part time who earn over a certain amount.






(a student making it harder on fellow students!:D)

skafish

Scortho wrote: »

Im a college student. I work 24 hours a week during college and when it comes to holidays it can be up to 70. I love shift work!:rolleyes:

Last year I earned the nice sum of 16745. My Prsi was 314 and USC was 491.
My income tax was the grand total of 48 quid.

Now bare in mind that I live at home as Im 12 miles from college.
My parents wont take rent of me or let me contribute towards food costs etc.

Only requirements are that I pay my registration charge, bus tickets, feed myself when in college (but can take from the fridge), clothe myself, pay my health insurance and that I dont ask them to put their hand in their own pocket for nights out.

I can well afford to pay more tax. Im in a position way better than that of most people who are paying tax on earnings at the higher rate. I've no childcare fees, no mortgage or rent to pay and no outstanding debts to service.

Bands for the likes of myself need to be increased.

Firstly, well done for having the nonce and drive to go and get part time work. I know its not always easy to balance full time study and any level of work.

But your example does show that there are solutions out there for people who are prepared to look for work and go and do it.

The Tree of Liberty

We should have a flat rate of income tax, that way everyone would think twice before voting for parties that fecklessly increase government expenditure and raise taxes when it becomes unsustainable.

As things stand progressive taxation is leading to a situation where one half of the country are voting to take money off the other half.