Property tax rate

JP 1800

Noonan states that a property tax of 0.5% suggested by the IMF is too high in which I agree but would a tax rate of 0.25% be more likely for Decembers budget?

http://www.thejournal.ie/imf-ireland-bailout-michael-noonan-591056-Sep2012/

Depends really how they determine the value, plenty of people who bought property for 3/4 times what it would sell for now.

0.25% of €400,000 per annum is a bit of a sh1tter if next door sold for €150,000 last week.

Lots of people in their 60s etc living in houses that might be worth a few quid but their income might be quite small.

The fair implementation of this tax will be crucial.

JP 1800

The crux of the argument is how do we value a property, people will be in for a shock when a working property tax is introduced. When I was living in the UK my council tax was £1,000 a year for a 1 bed apartment along with water charges on top of that. This being Ireland a rate of over 1000 euro a year is foreseeable in the future.

thesimpsons

JP 1800 - how was the UK council tax worked out, property value or square footage ?

JP 1800

Council taxes are in bands such as A, B, C ect. and based on a few factors such as the size of the property, the number of people living there, the location and how near you are to facilities such as pools, hospitals and police stations. I was living in a good area near Cardiff which had a lot of these facilities close by but my tax was only in band C.

Welease

thesimpsons wrote: »

JP 1800 - how was the UK council tax worked out, property value or square footage ?

Roughly.. Houses in areas were assessed and assigned a value (in the mid 80's).. those values fell within certain value bands.. and each council charged a rate based on those bands..

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/HomeAndCommunity/YourlocalcouncilandCouncilTax/CouncilTax/DG_10037383

Even though prices went up in the following 20+ years, most areas kept the same band brackets and value on houses.. So if a 3 bed semi in area was valued at 65K when the original pricing was done, it is likely a 3 bed semi in the area now would fall into the same price bracket even though it was now worth 250K. Similar new houses would also fall into the 65K bracket. (values above were one example of a property I owned in the UK).

If memory server (and the info will be available on the web) Scotland did a more recent update, and England/Wales will be doing updates (or may have already done so).

Damien360

We currently pay bin charges of €400 and household charge of €100. My house is valued at €130,000 at a push. (one for sale in bad order on estate for €100,000)

Therefore already close to 0.4% for me and I am sure many others.

christmas2012

The IMF need to talk about a cut in their salaries in the spirit of cutting wages and implementing further taxes..

not yet

I bought an apartment in 2005 for 235k, it is now worth 90k with a 180k mortgage.

Now if this government think I'm paying a property tax on something I will never own they can fcuk right off, end of.

Water charge, yes I have no problem paying this, as it is a resource I use.

Tea drinker

not yet wrote: »

I bought an apartment in 2005 for 235k, it is now worth 90k with a 180k mortgage.

Now if this government think I'm paying a property tax on something I will never own they can fcuk right off, end of.

Water charge, yes I have no problem paying this, as it is a resource I use.

So you saved yourself 50 - 60 grand of rent as well, not such a bad deal then?

d4v1d

RoverJames wrote: »

The fair implementation of this tax will be crucial.

This is not a personal attack, but I find comments like this ridiculous. How can any tax be fair? If someone owns a property and can't afford to pay the tax, let it accumulate on the property until it is either sold and repaid or the tax becomes more than the value of the property and the state takes ownership.

So what if a few people lose their house. In any system we need to accept losses. It's just the way it is. I say to hell with trying to make it fair and try to make it simple instead, everyone pays 0.5%.

Fair just means unfair for someone else.

mightybashful

d4v1d wrote: »

RoverJames wrote: »

The fair implementation of this tax will be crucial.

This is not a personal attack, but I find comments like this ridiculous. How can any tax be fair? If someone owns a property and can't afford to pay the tax, let it accumulate on the property until it is either sold and repaid or the tax becomes more than the value of the property and the state takes ownership.

So what if a few people lose their house. In any system we need to accept losses. It's just the way it is. I say to hell with trying to make it fair and try to make it simple instead, everyone pays 0.5%.

Fair just means unfair for someone else.

Good man

strandroad

RoverJames wrote: »

The fair implementation of this tax will be crucial.

I expect the usual fair - welfare recipients, OAPs and those below certain income exempt, cap on the tax low enough that for big gaffs it's comparatively peanuts. The middle will pay.
It will also do wonders (ekhm) for house prices as potential buyers will deduct this new tax, as well as water charges, from what they planned to spend on mortgage.

OMD

mhge wrote: »

I expect the usual fair - welfare recipients, OAPs and those below certain income exempt, cap on the tax low enough that for big gaffs it's comparatively peanuts. The middle will pay.
It will also do wonders (ekhm) for house prices as potential buyers will deduct this new tax, as well as water charges, from what they planned to spend on mortgage.

renters will pay it too. The cost will be added to the rent. So it shouldn't effect house prices too much as it won't change supply and demand. Yes in theory people will not buy more expensive houses but then that increases demand for slightly less expensive ones thus pushing up their price.

strandroad

OMD wrote: »

renters will pay it too. The cost will be added to the rent. So it shouldn't effect house prices too much as it won't change supply and demand. Yes in theory people will not buy more expensive houses but then that increases demand for slightly less expensive ones thus pushing up their price.

It won't change supply and demand but will decrease disposable income for pretty much everyone; and with that pushing up prices won't go very far.

Good loser

not yet wrote: »

I bought an apartment in 2005 for 235k, it is now worth 90k with a 180k mortgage.

Now if this government think I'm paying a property tax on something I will never own they can fcuk right off, end of.

Water charge, yes I have no problem paying this, as it is a resource I use.

You already 'own' it - subject to a mortgage.

If you got a windfall of €200k or won the lotto would you pay then?

You won't be given an option.

Luckily taxes are not voluntary - else f--k all would be collected.

NIMAN

The fact that you are in negative equity is irrelevant to the debate, harsh as this may sound.

BOHtox

What this tax does do is collect money from those who earn nothing but have a lot of assets.

avalon68

not yet wrote: »

I bought an apartment in 2005 for 235k, it is now worth 90k with a 180k mortgage.

Now if this government think I'm paying a property tax on something I will never own they can fcuk right off, end of.

Water charge, yes I have no problem paying this, as it is a resource I use.

People the world over pay property taxes....negative equity or not Im afraid. I would consider it a bonus that you havent had to pay it until now, but ultimately its necessary to have a sustainable tax like this in place. In future people will budget in tax payments before purchasing. Yes it sucks to dish out money - it would be a much easier sell if certain services (bin collection) were provided and the money remained local. However, you say you are willing to pay for water as you use it - do you not also use power lines, roads, hospitals, schools, police, fire fighters etc?

Yourwellcum

not yet wrote: »

I bought an apartment in 2005 for 235k, it is now worth 90k with a 180k mortgage.

Now if this government think I'm paying a property tax on something I will never own they can fcuk right off, end of.

Water charge, yes I have no problem paying this, as it is a resource I use.

You will own it outright at the same point you would of owned it had prices not fallen. Negative equity is irrelevant if you are paying back the mortgage.

The only impact it has is on your ability to move somewhere else should you wish to.

Gumbo

Yourwellcum wrote: »

Negative equity is irrelevant if you are paying back the mortgage.

The only impact it has is on your ability to move somewhere else should you wish to.

It also affects you where by your paying the high purchase price during a time of paycuts and extra taxes. OK, we all signed the forms ourselves, nobody forced us to, and thats no problem, i will continue paying my mortgage for as long as i can.

But with pay going down, taxes going up and everything in between going up, whether that be ESB, Bord Gais, Home Insurance etc etc Even Aldi have increased their prices recently, shopping is going up, fuel coats etc etc again

The first think i will cut back on is my mortgage payment.

bbam

Who gets to value the property.
Is this another windfall for estate agents?
After skimming off profits during the boom are they to be thrown a guaranteed job of work to value all houses in the country.

Will there be an appeal mechanism for the value of property, after all the value of something is what someone is willing to pay for it, not what some beaurocrat thinks its worth.

bullvine

I keep hearing the same thing over and over that the UK has it but can someone tell me. Did the UK pay the same amount of massive Stamp Duty that a lot of people in the last 10 years have paid.

avalon68

bullvine wrote: »

I keep hearing the same thing over and over that the UK has it but can someone tell me. Did the UK pay the same amount of massive Stamp Duty that a lot of people in the last 10 years have paid.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/Taxes/TaxOnPropertyAndRentalIncome/DG_4015918

Seems there is some sort of stamp duty

avalon68

bbam wrote: »

Who gets to value the property.
Is this another windfall for estate agents?
After skimming off profits during the boom are they to be thrown a guaranteed job of work to value all houses in the country.

Will there be an appeal mechanism for the value of property, after all the value of something is what someone is willing to pay for it, not what some beaurocrat thinks its worth.

How were they skimming off profits? If you were selling a property, you agreed a fee with them....collecting their fee isnt skimming - its being paid what was agreed upon. Im not sure how they value properties in the UK for tax purposes, but using estate agents could be problematic anyway - if you call 3 different agents, you will likely get three different valuations.

bullvine

avalon68 wrote: »

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/Taxes/TaxOnPropertyAndRentalIncome/DG_4015918

Seems there is some sort of stamp duty

Doesnt seem to be as high as it was in this country though but I could be mistaken or they may have changed it recently like it has in this country. Also so much for those clowns saying anybody in the last 7 years who had paid it would be excempt from Stamp Duty.

cytex

Good loser wrote: »

You already 'own' it - subject to a mortgage.

If you got a windfall of €200k or won the lotto would you pay then?

You won't be given an option.

Luckily taxes are not voluntary - else f--k all would be collected.

Actually your wrong he will never own this property with this tax. the most he can own is 99.75% If the goverment dont decide they are "owed" a bigger share.

only a idiot would pay this tax full stop it signes over a portion of YOUR property to the state For absoultely nothing in return . It is Theft plain and simple.

cytex

bullvine wrote: »

I keep hearing the same thing over and over that the UK has it but can someone tell me. Did the UK pay the same amount of massive Stamp Duty that a lot of people in the last 10 years have paid.

No idea about the stamp duty.

But the uk doesnt have the property tax they have council rates where everyone pays for there services . they get bins collected amoung other things for this charge and it doesnt matter if you own or rent your liable.
A lien does not get taken out against your house unless you are shown to both
a. Be able to afford the tax .
B. Refuse to pay the tax .
this is done through a ccj on the person . This means that property rights are not effected.

Nothing like our tax at all where you get absoultley nothing for it . In fact there is no country in the world with a tax like ours.

who_me

avalon68 wrote: »

People the world over pay property taxes....negative equity or not Im afraid. I would consider it a bonus that you havent had to pay it until now, but ultimately its necessary to have a sustainable tax like this in place. In future people will budget in tax payments before purchasing. Yes it sucks to dish out money - it would be a much easier sell if certain services (bin collection) were provided and the money remained local. However, you say you are willing to pay for water as you use it - do you not also use power lines, roads, hospitals, schools, police, fire fighters etc?

It's true that other countries have property taxes; most other countries also have lower VAT rates, lower maximum income tax rates, (much) lower VRT, and better services provided in return. I wouldn't consider it any kind of a 'bonus' that we haven't had to pay it.

It is odd though when applied to negative equity, given it's one of the few times when debt is being taxed!

murphaph

cytex wrote: »

Nothing like our tax at all where you get absoultley nothing for it . In fact there is no country in the world with a tax like ours.

I have to pay €300 a year in Berlin in property taxes straight to the tax office (note: not for services, we pay the city separately for all services) for "nothing" in return. It's almost the exact same thing except in Germany the rates appear much higher (I pay 300 on a 70m² flat worth app. 50k).

Zamboni

Valuation is in the eye of the beholder.
This tax will be nigh on impossible to implement on an equitable basis.

Who is the valuer?
Who polices the valuer?
Can the value be appealed?
Value is a moving target. How often does a valuation take place?
If it is to be undertaken by external private entities, who pays for the valuation?
If it is to be undertaken by external private entities it will be open for abuse.
Which body will implement the tax?

I patiently await the full details of the implementation of this tax with bated breath and expected dissapointment.

avalon68

bullvine wrote: »

Doesnt seem to be as high as it was in this country though but I could be mistaken or they may have changed it recently like it has in this country. Also so much for those clowns saying anybody in the last 7 years who had paid it would be excempt from Stamp Duty.

It would be unfair to exempt those people really. Only people without an income should be exempt. Its just going to be a change in mentality for Ireland over the next few years. Im in the states at the moment, and anyone here looking to buy looks at a) the house price and b) the taxes that need to be paid every year when deciding if they can afford it or not. Problem in Ireland is a lot of people got mortgages they were never going to be able to afford long term. People payed crazy money for houses when they would have been better off just renting.

avalon68

who_me wrote: »

It's true that other countries have property taxes; most other countries also have lower VAT rates, lower maximum income tax rates, (much) lower VRT, and better services provided in return. I wouldn't consider it any kind of a 'bonus' that we haven't had to pay it.

It is odd though when applied to negative equity, given it's one of the few times when debt is being taxed!

The guy I am currently renting from pays a property tax, and a view tax. He is on well water, has own septic system, no paved road to house, has to pay snow plough people in winter and has to take own trash to the dump......but he does have a nice view. It would be nice if some services such as bin collection were included like in the UK, but that isnt the case in most countries.

cytex

murphaph wrote: »

I have to pay €300 a year in Berlin in property taxes straight to the tax office (note: not for services, we pay the city separately for all services) for "nothing" in return. It's almost the exact same thing except in Germany the rates appear much higher (I pay 300 on a 70m² flat worth app. 50k).

Liar Liar pants on fire .

The tax you pay is kept in the local goverment it is levied by the local goverment and to fund the local goverment. Also this tax doesnt infringe on property rights if you genuinly cant pay it you wont be forced to sell your property to pay it. Renters etc are liable could keep going on about the differences here.

You dont like what they are spending it on vote them out.
We get no such option here as the tax is levied by the state goverment goes into a central pot and local goverment gets their budget from this pot . as i said no tax like this in the world.

cytex

avalon68 wrote: »

The guy I am currently renting from pays a property tax, and a view tax. He is on well water, has own septic system, no paved road to house, has to pay snow plough people in winter and has to take own trash to the dump......but he does have a nice view. It would be nice if some services such as bin collection were included like in the UK, but that isnt the case in most countries.

What country ?

avalon68

cytex wrote: »

What country ?

USA

murphaph

cytex wrote: »

Liar Liar pants on fire .

Take it easy. :rolleyes:

cytex wrote: »

The tax you pay is kept in the local goverment it is levied by the local goverment and to fund the local goverment.

By local government you mean the City of Berlin, with 3.5 million inhabitants? It's almost as many people as live in Ireland. Can't you vote the Irish government out too?

The Grundsteuer (ground tax) in Berlin goes to the tax office. It is not clear what it is spent on at all, no more than my income tax. I get a different bill from the city for individual services which is fully itemised and includes water, sewage, roads maintenance, waste collection and so on.

cytex wrote: »

You dont like what they are spending it on vote them out.
We get no such option here as the tax is levied by the state goverment goes into a central pot and local goverment gets their budget from this pot . as i said no tax like this in the world.

I think the tax should remain local too btw, but to suggest that it is completely unique is a bit of a stretch. We do need a total overhaul of local government in Ireland with directly elected mayors with executive powers, but we don't have time for that reform right now and we need to introduce a property tax to widen the tax base.

cytex

avalon68 wrote: »

USA

They have one of the lowest tax bills in the world . Also the most repressive property taxes however that is more or less there tax bar a federal tax.

tayto lover

bullvine wrote: »

I keep hearing the same thing over and over that the UK has it but can someone tell me. Did the UK pay the same amount of massive Stamp Duty that a lot of people in the last 10 years have paid.

Plus when you pay it in the U.K. your doctors bills, school bus, books, bins etc are also included. Ours is double taxation pure and simple BUT the F.G. shills in here will not tell you that.

avalon68

I wouldnt call taxes all that low here - i pay federal and local taxes that take a huge chunk out of my salary. They also tax the very low paid - students I work with pay taxes on their stipends. Basically, everyone pays something. Theres also a vehicle registration fee/motor tax every year.

cytex

murphaph wrote: »

Take it easy. :rolleyes:
By local government you mean the City of Berlin, with 3.5 million inhabitants? It's almost as many people as live in Ireland. Can't you vote the Irish government out too?

Yes that is your local goverment neither here or there the population. Again the national goverment and local goverment are different it is what i am trying to get at . This tax money goes into a centeral pool your tax money goes to your local area . There is zero accountability in the local area in this country.

The Grundsteuer (ground tax) in Berlin goes to the tax office. It is not clear what it is spent on at all, no more than my income tax. I get a different bill from the city for individual services which is fully itemised and includes water, sewage, roads maintenance, waste collection and so on.

Isnt that a one of payment ??

I think the tax should remain local too btw, but to suggest that it is completely unique is a bit of a stretch. We do need a total overhaul of local government in Ireland with directly elected mayors with executive powers, but we don't have time for that reform right now and we need to introduce a property tax to widen the tax base.

Then name a country with it as similar if you cant then it is unique.
We do not need to steal peoples property it does not widden the tax base it is the same people getting fecked over with over half there wages going in tax that has to pay it . Please stop spinning .

cytex

avalon68 wrote: »

I wouldnt call taxes all that low here - i pay federal and local taxes that take a huge chunk out of my salary. They also tax the very low paid - students I work with pay taxes on their stipends. Basically, everyone pays something. Theres also a vehicle registration fee/motor tax every year.

Never said they are all that low . However they are amoung the lowest in the world .

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42612937/ns/business-personal_finance/t/us-taxes-among-lowest-world/

avalon68

cytex wrote: »

They have one of the lowest tax bills in the world . Also the most repressive property taxes however that is more or less there tax bar a federal tax.

Never said they are all that low . However they are amoung the lowest in the world .

:rolleyes:

cytex

avalon68 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

the individual tax bill in the us might not be that low however you as a country have one of the lowest tax bills in the world hope that clears it up for you .

Gumbo

avalon68 wrote: »

Theres also a vehicle registration fee/motor tax every year.

We pay that here too, at an extorionate rate too

avalon68

kceire wrote: »

We pay that here too, at an extorionate rate too

I know, Im Irish - just temporarily living stateside - was just trying to make the point that taxes have to be paid here like everywhere else. Cytex seems to be making the argument that he shouldnt have to pay a property tax because other taxes are higher in Ireland. Having lived in several countries, I dont find that to be the case.

who_me

avalon68 wrote: »

The guy I am currently renting from pays a property tax, and a view tax. He is on well water, has own septic system, no paved road to house, has to pay snow plough people in winter and has to take own trash to the dump......but he does have a nice view. It would be nice if some services such as bin collection were included like in the UK, but that isnt the case in most countries.

A view tax? Seriously? How on earth does that work?

avalon68

who_me wrote: »

A view tax? Seriously? How on earth does that work?

Yeah, seriously! Live on elevated ground....view tax! Some states have it, some dont. But in all fairness, the money is pumped back locally and sports facilities, schools, etc are top notch in this area. And a yearly town meeting outlines the tax take and propositions for what needs funding. For example, this year there was a vote on teachers salary and benefit packages - everyone who paid a local tax had a vote and could make their case. It was interesting to watch.

bullvine

avalon68 wrote: »

It would be unfair to exempt those people really. Only people without an income should be exempt. Its just going to be a change in mentality for Ireland over the next few years. Im in the states at the moment, and anyone here looking to buy looks at a) the house price and b) the taxes that need to be paid every year when deciding if they can afford it or not. Problem in Ireland is a lot of people got mortgages they were never going to be able to afford long term. People payed crazy money for houses when they would have been better off just renting.

Yeah but people keep saying the UK has it so we should too but the UK didnt have the high levels of stamp duty that a lot of people paid in the last 10 years.

I wasnt one of the unlucky people who got a crazy mortgage and I know things are unfair but some people paid 30k Stampduty on a fairly average house in 2006 and now are gonna have to pay around 1000 annually on top of that and what about people who have to pay management fees on top of that.

Would it not be an option to only charge people who actually own their houses? Does somebody have a figure as to what the number of people who own their homes are in this country. So thats it something to look forward to when you've paid off your mortgage....

Chris_5339762

I wonder if the whole "people who live in apartments and pay management fees should pay none/reduced property tax" argument will rear its head. I think it does have some substance to it. Not NO property tax, but a lower rate as they are paying for some of the services.

cytex

avalon68 wrote: »

I know, Im Irish - just temporarily living stateside - was just trying to make the point that taxes have to be paid here like everywhere else. Cytex seems to be making the argument that he shouldnt have to pay a property tax because other taxes are higher in Ireland. Having lived in several countries, I dont find that to be the case.

Actually avalon I was rebuking the ridiculous claim that other countries have a tax like this they dont.

The reason why i wont be paying the property tax is quite simple the goverment are already wasting the money i am giving them . I aint giving them any more.
Also my property is mine i have already payed tax on the property i have already paid tax on the money to buy the property i WILL not share my property with anybody i own it 100% .