9 11 and all that

SamHarris

Border-Rat wrote: »

There are people out there who do not even know about this third building. They are the majority. The larger minority are the ones who, when shown this footage, attempt to claim that the above perfect, symmetrical, uniform implosion was due to office fires. The minority can see it for what it clearly is - a controlled demolition. The plane that was shot down was supposed to hit this third sky-scraper, then they were going to implode it.

Some of "those people claiming it was an office fire" Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers (SEI/ASCE), the Society of Fire Protection Engineers (SFPE), the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), the American Institute of Steel Construction (AISC), the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat (CTBUH), and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEAoNY).

But of course, they are just in on it to. Isnt everyone now a days?

Run_to_da_hills

Did Israel play a role in 9/11? Q&A.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJfFNBAdYec

Border-Rat

I would just say they're exceptionally stupid and going with the flow. During the Chernobyl disaster (Remember that discussion were you purposely evaded all incovenient points?), many 'engineers' went on record to say that negligence was not a problem. This is a trait of authoritarian leftist regimes. If you think the above .gif and that collapse are a result of office fires, I really can't do anything but point and laugh at you.

Border-Rat

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Did Israel play a role in 9/11? Q&A.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJfFNBAdYec

5 members of the Israeli Mossad, the intelligence network for a Country where its normal to spit on sub-human Christian, were caught celebrating so loud that New Jersey residents called the police. The FBI arrested them and developed the camera footage they had, there were going to extreme lengths to have each other photographed in congratulatory positions (E.g one was holding a zippo light with a thumbs-up next to the flaming carnage. They then refused to take lie detector tests for weeks before finally submitting and failing the tests.

Very funny that an Israeli company vacated its lease (At a cost of 50,000 dollars) early right before the attacks as well.

SamHarris

Border-Rat wrote: »

All of the 'hijacked' flights made irregular flight changes in direction.

Nope, they all pretty much turned the plane directly towards their targets after the hijacking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flightpath-AA77.gif
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UA175_path.svg

Apparantly they decided on the scenic route http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UA93_path.svg

Dont even know why I bother :rolleyes: But Im curious, could you list all the organisations you believe were involved in this?

Border-Rat

SamHarris wrote: »

Nope, they all pretty much turned the plane directly towards their targets after the hijacking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flightpath-AA77.gif
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UA175_path.svg

Apparantly they decided on the scenic route http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UA93_path.svg

Dont even know why I bother :rolleyes: But Im curious, could you list all the organisations you believe were involved in this?

They were able to turn because they weren't shot down. LOL.

SamHarris

Border-Rat wrote: »

I would just say they're exceptionally stupid and going with the flow. During the Chernobyl disaster (Remember that discussion were you purposely evaded all incovenient points?), many 'engineers' went on record to say that negligence was not a problem. This is a trait of authoritarian leftist regimes. If you think the above .gif and that collapse are a result of office fires, I really can't do anything but point and laugh at you.

Ah! Going with the flow! But of course.

They uncovered a massive government conspiracy - a bunch of firemen and civil engineers and decided to "go with the flow".:rolleyes:

What an air tight CT.

If you believe you know better than those organisations how a fire should effect a tall building I can only laugh with you.

But of course! It was those damn Jews. What wont those Zionists do?

RGDATA!

Fuinseog wrote: »

I found it disturbing the way americans had street parties when Osama was murdered. the man was unarmed and posed no threat to the soldiers but they were no going to take him prisoner. kill him if you must but celebrating a killing is perverse just like the English soldiers who had a cake and party with the victims name on it, whenever they killed an iRA man.

I thought it was very disturbing also, and wrong. From how you say it, it was as though the entire country went out and had a party in the streets. In fact many Americans were ashamed of how some of their fellow citizens reacted.
Remember too, that some people celebrated 9/11 in similar style. Those images were burned in the brains of probably many of those who did celebrate Bin Laden's assassination.
While you make some good points, you're not being particularly objective in your comments, which is a pity.

SamHarris

Border-Rat wrote: »

They were able to turn because they weren't shot down. LOL.

... You think missiles steer planes before blowing up?

SamHarris

RGDATA! wrote: »

I thought it was very disturbing also, and wrong. From how you say it, it was as though the entire country went out and had a party in the streets. In fact many Americans were ashamed of how some of their fellow citizens reacted.
Remember too, that some people celebrated 9/11 in similar style. Those images were burned in the brains of probably many of those who did celebrate Bin Laden's assassination.
While you make some good points, you're not being particularly objective in your comments, which is a pity.

I dont think celebrating is exactly a great thing to do either - but you do realise he advoccated the murder of all American men women and childern?

Fin isnt "particularly objective"? The guy is polticaly extreme, no other way to put it.

SamHarris

Im going to bail on this thread before the CTers start swarming.

http://www.debunking911.com/ this site will almost certainly deal with any BS. Up untill they try desperatly to concoct something else of course.

But be warned! I think a Jew may or may not have at one time or another visited the site - so its obviously suspect. Its the best we can do though, they just control to much.

Gbear

I think an important point to make is that the likes of Bin Laden would have quite happily killed every man, woman and child that refused to bend the knee to Islamic tyranny if they actually had the power to do so.

They didn't decide "3000 - that'll teach them. Now lets never attack them again".


Whatever point about Israel or the US being arseholes - they're arseholes when held to a much higher account.
They don't target school buses with suicide bombers. They don't throw acid in the faces of girls going to school.
Saying US, Israeli and European colonial countries' actions were part of the reason some Muslims are pissed off with them isn't anything like a full explanation and it's sure as hell not an excuse.

MagicSean

When news broke of the attacks my accounting class was due to have a test? Coincedence? Or an elaborate scheme from someone who didn't study?

i watched that documentary that claimed all the buildings were actualyy demolished internally. It made some interesting points, until it started its anti-zionist stuff.

Bradidup

SamHarris wrote: »

Im going to bail on this thread before the CTers start swarming.

http://www.debunking911.com/ this site will almost certainly deal with any BS. Up untill they try desperatly to concoct something else of course.

But be warned! I think a Jew may or may not have at one time or another visited the site - so its obviously suspect. Its the best we can do though, they just control to much.

The only ones that look up that site these days are those that are loyal to FOX and CNN news channels.

tigger123

MagicSean wrote: »

When news broke of the attacks my accounting class was due to have a test? Coincedence? Or an elaborate scheme from someone who didn't study?

i watched that documentary that claimed all the buildings were actualyy demolished internally. It made some interesting points, until it started its anti-zionist stuff.

What always kills the idea of it being an inside job is the practicalities and the scale of such an operation. Literally 100's if not 1000's of people would have had to have been involved in an operation of this scale, and not one of them has opened their mouth. Yet less than 20 people were involved with the Osama assassination and we already have a book written.

Also, we're supposed to believe that the same US Administration that was behind the 9/11 attacks couldn't plant a few dirty bombs, in the desert, in a country the size of Iraq and therefore justify their invasion.

Hmmmmm... :pac:

SamHarris

Bradidup wrote: »

The only ones that look up that site these days are those that are loyal to FOX and CNN news channels.

Loyal to a news station? Eh hu. :rolleyes:

Nope, its points are all logical and backed up with relevant scources. Its irrelevant if Bush himself wrote it - the arguments stand up under their own weight. Unlike, say for example, the claim that all those engineering and firemen societies just couldnt have been bothered pointing out the buildings were demolished using charges or that the planes all took strange routes to their targets- which are patently complete bull****.

candy-gal1

Twas a very sad day indeed, even looking back on it through TV clips etc still is a little teary to the eye tbh, I still remember te day it happened, I was 14, came out of school and was picked u by the dad who then told me what had happened, i had no idea which he was surpride the teachers hadnt said anything

and on a slightly very inapproprate note, the thing that came into my head upon seeing this thread title today

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFCEBWkLwqc

Fuinseog

RGDATA! wrote: »

I thought it was very disturbing also, and wrong. From how you say it, it was as though the entire country went out and had a party in the streets. In fact many Americans were ashamed of how some of their fellow citizens reacted.
Remember too, that some people celebrated 9/11 in similar style. Those images were burned in the brains of probably many of those who did celebrate Bin Laden's assassination.
While you make some good points, you're not being particularly objective in your comments, which is a pity.

maybe you lived in the states but I am reliant on media coverage and that is what was shown. how am I not being objective?

SamHarris

Fuinseog wrote: »

maybe you lived in the states but I am reliant on media coverage and that is what was shown. how am I not being objective?

You honestly dont see the problem with seeing a video f people doing something and then extrapolating that out to all the people of a given type? Wow. Ok so Im sure you feel comfortable with those celebrating Palestinians on 911 being used as the archtypical reaction of Palestinians, or even Arabs to the events?

Because if you want a real opinion, the only type you should feel comfortable posting on the internet, you would AT LEAST look at some of the polls dealing with that issue.

the_syco

Piste wrote: »

The Harvard system is a style of referencing used in the humanities for citing sources in papers or essays.

I'm sorry, but I don't quite understand. Does this mean I should give a direct link to the source?

Piste

I think he was poking fun at you by setting up needlessly high expectations for an internet forum because you had been so kind to reference in the first place (which nobody seems to do). Sure I don't know, I'm not a humanities student, I reference in Vancouver shtyle.


EDIT: Well this was a sh!t 11,000th post.

El Weirdo

the_syco wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I don't quite understand. Does this mean I should give a direct link to the source?

Not necessarily.

My issue was with the incorrect format of your referencing. You had the right idea though.

Get it right, and you can expect to bump that C- to a C+.

http://libweb.anglia.ac.uk/referencing/harvard.htm

Edit: What Piste said.

Overheal

Andy!! wrote: »

No, they are vilified because the people who are actually responsible for 9/11 try very hard to vilify them and make sure they are still demonized to this day...

The Jews were now responsible for 9/11? OK.

Overheal

Piste wrote: »

The Harvard system is a style of referencing used in the humanities for citing sources in papers or essays.

MLA FTW

niallo27

SamHarris wrote: »

Im going to bail on this thread before the CTers start swarming.

http://www.debunking911.com/ this site will almost certainly deal with any BS. Up untill they try desperatly to concoct something else of course.

But be warned! I think a Jew may or may not have at one time or another visited the site - so its obviously suspect. Its the best we can do though, they just control to much.

I have read a lot on both sides of the story, I really think the amercian goverment let its people down that day, I think these attacks could have been stopped that day, why werent jet scrambled that day. How was a plane allowed to fly into the most protceted building in the planet. Why were no videos of the crash into the pentagon released.

Why was never a proper investagation of what happened that day, why was more money spent investigating clinton getting sucked off than 2700 people dying. There was a 10,000 page report into the twin towers collapsing without giving a reason why they collapsed, there is no officail reason why they fell so i believe, I'd be very pissed off if i lost anyone in this.

asherbassad

donalg1 wrote: »

But you remember and you care. I am sure there a couple of people in Afghanistan that care too but this being the west we dont really see much of their side of things on the six one news. But then they were trying to rid Afghanistan of the Taliban, who werent exactly a nice bunch of people. At the weekend they sent a 14yr old suicide bomber to blow himself up and when he did this he killed a number of young children so forgive me if I dont feel too much sympathy for the good auld Taliban.

Who gives a **** about America who allowed 1200 of their citizens to rot in toxic swamps anyway in 2005. They could have done something about this crap on 9/11. After all they were warned for months....AND after the rest of the world sobbed crocodile tears for the clowns who couldn't find their asses with both hands and a map...what did the sh!theads do...they went a blew a hole in the world (just to make money) and said "you're with us or you're with the terrorists". Now none of us can have a drink in the departure bar because of these infantile idiots. And they still want respect. Fcuking dimwit tools. They killed and maimed more allied troops with their friendly fire horse**** than those who have died in these towers and people still mope about 9-****ing-11 like they were related to Princess Diana. ****ing LAME!

asherbassad

niallo27 wrote: »

I have read a lot on both sides of the story, I really think the amercian goverment let its people down that day, I think these attacks could have been stopped that day, why werent jet scrambled that day. How was a plane allowed to fly into the most protceted building in the planet. Why were no videos of the crash into the pentagon released.

Why was never a proper investagation of what happened that day, why was more money spent investigating clinton getting sucked off than 2700 people dying. There was a 10,000 page report into the twin towers collapsing without giving a reason why they collapsed, there is no officail reason why they fell so i believe, I'd be very pissed off if i lost anyone in this.

Niallo....you'll get an explanation alright.....you're great grandkids will be your age when they read it though.....much like the Katya massacre, or the Bloody Sunday "thang" or any other scandal that's buried for at least 2 generations. Every decision made under the Bush administration from 2000 to 2008 had officially been put under lock and key for no less than 70 years. And classified. Gotta love "democracy".

asherbassad

"9/11 Changed everything"

Did the Norwegians start testing people's piss after Breviek's massacre?
No!
They just said.....maniac. Jail him. We now go on living our lives.

Americans....."Oh GOD, they're running out of fcuking plastic bags for me to seal my GODAMM windows....SOMEBODY HELP ME"

Incidentally, was there a national day of mourning in Ireland when 1200 people were left to die in the wake of Katrina? Was there a day or even a moment's silence for the victims of the Fallujah Massacre or the My Lai slaughter? Was there even a moment when people all stoppped their car engines at the side of the fcuking road for a few minutes when kids were tortured at Bagram, Abu-Ghraib and Guantanamo? No. But it was done so quickly when America got slapped in the mouth.

Amazing.

Wompa1

Fuinseog wrote: »

And saying that thousands deserved to die, which you essentially said in your OP, is a terrible thing to say.

that is your reading of the situation. 9 11 was a terrible tragedy and while it was terrible that innocent folks died americas actions were bound to have repurcusions at some stage.


I found it disturbing the way americans had street parties when Osama was murdered. the man was unarmed and posed no threat to the soldiers but they were no going to take him prisoner. kill him if you must but celebrating a killing is perverse just like the English soldiers who had a cake and party with the victims name on it, whenever they killed an iRA man.[/QUOTE]


Did you find it disturbing when the Iraqis celebrated in the streets when they were dragging down the statue of Hussein?

Wompa1

Fuinseog wrote: »

which is why they are vilified. americans carpet bombed apparently to liberate.

When I was in Germany a guy had said there's less ill will towards Americans than English people there because apparently the U.S forces struck more strategical sites, where as the Brits carpet bombed. I've read a few books on the subject, I've read a lot about bombings going wrong and strategic strikes in Germany but little about carpet deliberate carpet bombings by the US there during WW2

Wompa1

asherbassad wrote: »

"9/11 Changed everything"

Did the Norwegians start testing people's piss after Breviek's massacre?
No!
They just said.....maniac. Jail him. We now go on living our lives.

Americans....."Oh GOD, they're running out of fcuking plastic bags for me to seal my GODAMM windows....SOMEBODY HELP ME"

Incidentally, was there a national day of mourning in Ireland when 1200 people were left to die in the wake of Katrina? Was there a day or even a moment's silence for the victims of the Fallujah Massacre or the My Lai slaughter? Was there even a moment when people all stoppped their car engines at the side of the fcuking road for a few minutes when kids were tortured at Bagram, Abu-Ghraib and Guantanamo? No. But it was done so quickly when America got slapped in the mouth.

Amazing.

Sounds like you have some issues with the Irish government. You should write them a letter of complaint.

Wompa1

Scráib wrote: »

If you want to read genuine discussion about the disparity between American/Western/Infidel/etc etc etc. outrage at 2000 of their civilians being killed versus 200,000 of someone elses then look for Noam Chompsky's work. We studied the guy in college, interesting stuff.

That said, when one country owns or drives most of the mainstream media that we see then obviously any coverage of something like 9/11 will be skewed towards them if for no reason than it's easier for Sky to put a camera in downtown New York instead of the Sudan.

Are you serious?...The US government controls all of the free press? What is going on in this post? Ever watch the BBC news coverage? I didn't realize they didn't have shots from the attacks at all, those damn slippery Americans, no better than North Korea eh!?

Wompa1

wonderfullife wrote: »

Don't shoot just thinking out loud on this but.......

Would the World Trade Center be considered a legitimate military target in a traditional war? I.e. would a place of trade in a country historically be a legitimate military target? In wars you get all sorts of targets, bridges, planes, airfields, communication towers etc would a huge trade hub be a target?

It would not be a strategic target, the Pentagon could be. It would still be a diliberate attack on civilians. Also keep in mind the attacks were before any declaration of war. It was after the attacks the tape of Bin Laden calling for the Jihad was released.

Manic Moran

Wompa1 wrote: »

wonderfullife wrote: »

Don't shoot just thinking out loud on this but.......

Would the World Trade Center be considered a legitimate military target in a traditional war? I.e. would a place of trade in a country historically be a legitimate military target? In wars you get all sorts of targets, bridges, planes, airfields, communication towers etc would a huge trade hub be a target?.

No, still not military. Pentagon and arguably White House was an acceptable target, but a different manner of attack would have been required to be legitimate.

Fuinseog

Piste wrote: »

I think he was poking fun at you by setting up needlessly high expectations for an internet forum because you had been so kind to reference in the first place (which nobody seems to do). Sure I don't know, I'm not a humanities student, I reference in Vancouver shtyle.


EDIT: Well this was a sh!t 11,000th post.

A lot of people demand a source so why not?

Fuinseog

Wompa1 wrote: »

that is your reading of the situation. 9 11 was a terrible tragedy and while it was terrible that innocent folks died americas actions were bound to have repurcusions at some stage.


I found it disturbing the way americans had street parties when Osama was murdered. the man was unarmed and posed no threat to the soldiers but they were no going to take him prisoner. kill him if you must but celebrating a killing is perverse just like the English soldiers who had a cake and party with the victims name on it, whenever they killed an iRA man.

Did you find it disturbing when the Iraqis celebrated in the streets when they were dragging down the statue of Hussein?[/QUOTE]

no, but it was both disturbing and unprofessional to have him mocked as he stood on the gallows. execute him if you must but let him die with dignity.
Maybe Osama should have been but on trial instead of being shot on sight. what does it say about American democracy and sense of fairness.
as for the concentration camps they have in Cuba.

Fuinseog

Wompa1 wrote: »

When I was in Germany a guy had said there's less ill will towards Americans than English people there because apparently the U.S forces struck more strategical sites, where as the Brits carpet bombed. I've read a few books on the subject, I've read a lot about bombings going wrong and strategic strikes in Germany but little about carpet deliberate carpet bombings by the US there during WW2

but the Brits were punctual and bombed at 9am, every morning, while the USAF would bomb anytime in the evening or was is the other way round?

The Germans do not harp on about their bombs that fell over Germany like the Brits and their blitz , although ten times more civilians were killed in bombings in Germany.

America has convinced its citizens that America will be a safer place if they fight a war they cannot win in Afghanistan, yet it seems to be turning into another Vietnam.

Skylinehead

Wompa1 wrote: »

When I was in Germany a guy had said there's less ill will towards Americans than English people there because apparently the U.S forces struck more strategical sites, where as the Brits carpet bombed. I've read a few books on the subject, I've read a lot about bombings going wrong and strategic strikes in Germany but little about carpet deliberate carpet bombings by the US there during WW2

Don't know about that, the likes of Dresden were conducted by both the RAF and the USAAF.

SamHarris

Fuinseog wrote: »

The Germans do not harp on about their bombs that fell over Germany like the Brits and their blitz , although ten times more civilians were killed in bombings in Germany.

America has convinced its citizens that America will be a safer place if they fight a war they cannot win in Afghanistan, yet it seems to be turning into another Vietnam.

Given the rates of attacks on American civilians pre war and after the war they are right.

The idea that a nation can leave another government, or a group tied to a government, to intentionaly target their civilians over and over again and not respond violently at a given point is just not dealing with reality. They were given multiple opportunities to stop supporting al Qaeda over years - they refused to take it. You will rarely if ever find a better reason for a war.

If you think Afghanistan is anything like Vietnam then you dont know much about the intensity of both conflicts or the rational for the wars, the relative oppostition to them or even how they are fought.

Overheal

Manic Moran wrote: »

No, still not military. Pentagon and arguably White House was an acceptable target, but a different manner of attack would have been required to be legitimate.

Ground capture of said stock exchange?

Border-Rat

Wompa1 wrote: »

Did you find it disturbing when the Iraqis celebrated in the streets when they were dragging down the statue of Hussein?

That was a staged farce. Take a look at the 'crowd';

SamHarris

Border-Rat wrote: »

That was a staged farce. Take a look at the 'crowd';

Well their government took it upon themselves to issue a celebratory statement.

More than a few Muslims, and people in Ireland, have a rather smug attitude to the attacks.

See just two days ago and the pro al Qaeda chants at the embassy in Egypt.

Its particularly galling when they both believe it was a CT and at the same time as believing it was semi deserved. Just an example of the double think at place throughout ideologically based groups.

"Reason obeys itself; and Ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it."

SamHarris

Overheal wrote: »

Ground capture of said stock exchange?

Or a military strike. Just because they cannot do it does not even begin to legitimize the other manners in which they choose to attack.

Border-Rat

SamHarris wrote: »

Well their government took it upon themselves to issue a celebratory statement.

More than a few Muslims, and people in Ireland, have a rather smug attitude to the attacks.

See just two days ago and the pro al Qaeda chants at the embassy in Egypt.

Its particularly galling when they both believe it was a CT and at the same time as believing it was semi deserved. Just an example of the double think at place throughout ideologically based groups.

"Reason obeys itself; and Ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it."

What are you even talking about? The doctored photos I showed were drawn up while the Ba'athists were still in power.

SamHarris

Border-Rat wrote: »

What are you even talking about? The doctored photos I showed were drawn up while the Ba'athists were still in power.

Im talking about the statement the Iraqi government released after the attacks and the support that protestors showed for al Qaeda on the 9 11 anniversery in Egypt. Simples.

Border-Rat

SamHarris wrote: »

Im talking about the statement the Iraqi government released after the attacks and the support that protestors showed for al Qaeda on the 9 11 anniversery in Egypt. Simples.

So you have nothing to say then re: my point of a staged celebration? If so, why bother quoting me?

hucklebuck

Nuff said on the farce

El Weirdo

It's not the anniversary any more? Check.

The Loose Change videos have arrived? Check.


Back ye go to the Nutter's CT forum. See ya next year!

Locked.