Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 12/13 - Mod note #129 & 1087

kingshankly

Sahin stinks of a player that doesn't want to be here

klose

kingshankly wrote: »

Sahin stinks of a player that doesn't want to be here

If Sahin didn't really want to be here he wouldn't, he'd still be in sunny Spain.

BorneTobyWilde

Suarez is worth the wages of two players, Hope we don't lose him to money,
Rather pay Suarez 220,000 a week, than pay cole 100k .
Money is money, Ship cole out, Give Suarez another 100 k a week !

Kess73

kingshankly wrote: »

Sahin stinks of a player that doesn't want to be here

Don't think that is it at all. There are a few things that stick out for me about him.

One is that he has had feck all football this year due to injuries, so he is basically making his comeback in a different country and different league to where he most likely thought he would be by now.


Two, and this is the big one for me, is that he is not being used in his best position and he also does not have the one thing that a playmaker needs to suceed.

At Dortmund he had fantastic movement ahead of him, he had the steel of Bender beside him in the centre and he had the aggression and passing of the likes of Hummels behind him. He was used as a somewhat deep lying playmaker and let create. He was let find the runners and the runners knew that as long as they were mobile that he would get the ball to them.

Sahin was simply amazing in his final season with Dortmund, the closest I can think of by way of comparison was Alonso's last season with us just with more by way of goals and assists. His player of the year award was no fluke.


Before I left for London at the weekend I put up a post in here about how I was puzzled at how Rodgers was using Gerrard in Sahin's best position and trying to shoe horn Gerrard into Sahin's best position. Neither man is better than the other in the other's best position and both suffer when used in this manner imho.

For now I think we need to be playing Sahin deeper and closer to Allen and letting Gerrard take the CAM slot.

When Lucas comes back, let Lucas be the steel (the role Bender had at Dortmund), let Allen be the pivot, and let Sahin pull the strings and find the attackers. Gerrard for me could sit nicely on the right side of the attacking three.

But if Rodgers is going to keep putting Sahin in the advanced midfield slot when we are playing with three centre backs/back five, then there will be no clever movement for Sahin to work with as the majority of the attacks will come through the wing backs, and Sahin will just keep getting choked out of games.

I really rate Sahin and know that he can be an amazing player, but if we keep using him as we are then he will look to be a space filler rather than the guy who could be pulling strings.

BorneTobyWilde

Made this for fun
I love Torres, Hate to see our fans give him wanker sign,
He's a Liverpool legend !

kingshankly

Torres a Liverpool legend my hole
People use the term legend too easily nowadays

smileyj1987

kingshankly wrote: »

Torres a Liverpool legend my hole
People use the term legend too easily nowadays

I agree , he should have became a Liverpool legend but that will never happen now .

BorneTobyWilde

Opinions,
A hero to many, If not legend,
But he was so right, He knew this down turn was coming for Liverpool
He got out at right time, And won a champions league medal

smileyj1987

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Opinions,
A hero to many, If not legend,
But he was so right, He knew this down turn was coming for Liverpool
He got out at right time, And won a champions league medal

My opinion is support the club not the player ! I loved him when he wore a liverpool shirt but he doesn't now so I couldn't really care for him . Also you ask many liverpool fans about torres and they will tell you he was a traitor and was a HERO !

Sir Gallagher

So the whole midfield must be balanced with each player doing a good job in each.role before Sahin gets the finger out...? Some serious excuses being made for this player.

Nuri Sahin

Yeah, he's ****e.

padd b1975

YouTookMyName wrote: »

Lot of love lost.

Gerrard has a semi on.

Vicxas

Well, thats a lovely way to start the morning....

googled eyes

Someone asked on twitter the other day would you take Torres back for €15m ( I would think about it, I miss him playing for liverpool) and now the twitter rumour of the morning seems to be that we've made a 12-15m offer.
Twitter is a joke...

Kess73

Kess73 wrote: »

Before I left for London at the weekend I put up a post in here about how I was puzzled at how Rodgers was using Gerrard in Sahin's best position and trying to shoe horn Gerrard into Sahin's best position. Neither man is better than the other in the other's best position and both suffer when used in this manner imho.

For now I think we need to be playing Sahin deeper and closer to Allen and letting Gerrard take the CAM slot.

.

I'm puzzled how Rodgers doesn't see this.

Basically, he's playing all 3 midfielders in incorrect positions. Very worrying.

Kerrigooney

Nuri Sahin wrote: »

Yeah, he's ****e.

Don't think I'd go so far as to call him "shite" but he's definitely a bit of a passenger at the moment.

And arranging the whole midfield to suit him if he's gonna be leaving next summer is kind of dumb imo.

Vicxas

googled eyes wrote: »

Someone asked on twitter the other day would you take Torres back for €15m ( I would think about it, I miss him playing for liverpool) and now the twitter rumour of the morning seems to be that we've made a 12-15m offer.
Twitter is a joke...

Yeah this has exploded everywhere now. If I could only put up a turbo facepalm pic I would.... stupid work.

Sir Gallagher

rarnes1 wrote: »

I'm puzzled how Rodgers doesn't see this.

Basically, he's playing all 3 midfielders in incorrect positions. Very worrying.

He played them that way against Chelsea.

I was of the impression that Sahin could do a bit of everything, sure even Allen is being asked to play a role which he aint used to and he's done a good job of it so far. Not doubting Sahin's ability or calling him sh1te.... Just pointing out he's been a passenger lately and his head/heart might not be in it.

Hidalgo

smileyj1987 wrote: »

My opinion is support the club not the player ! I loved him when he wore a liverpool shirt but he doesn't now so I couldn't really care for him . Also you ask many liverpool fans about torres and they will tell you he was a traitor and was a HERO !

Really don't get this traitor sh*te. Did he sell top secret government files to an enemy or something.

He gave the best years of his career to Liverpool playing some fantastic football. The club then got a brilliant deal of £50 million for him. It isn't Torres' fault that the went and wasted it.

If he's a 'traitor' to any club it's Atletico, not Liverpool. he left a club to join Liverpool and then left Liverpool to join another club.

Going by the 'logic' of some, Suarez is a 'traitor', simply because he left Ajax to come to Liverpool (and no doubt if he leaves Liverpool he will inevitably be labelled as such)

In fact every player that angles for a transfer from 1 club to another must be a traitor.

jenno86

Hidalgo wrote: »

Really don't get this traitor sh*te. Did he sell top secret government files to an enemy or something.

He gave the best years of his career to Liverpool playing some fantastic football. The club then got a brilliant deal of £50 million for him. It isn't Torres' fault that the went and wasted it.

If he's a 'traitor' to any club it's Atletico, not Liverpool. he left a club to join Liverpool and then left Liverpool to join another club.

Going by the 'logic' of some, Suarez is a 'traitor', simply because he left Ajax to come to Liverpool (and no doubt if he leaves Liverpool he will inevitably be labelled as such)

In fact every player that angles for a transfer from 1 club to another must be a traitor.

Its different when its a team in the same league.

missingtime

The people calling Torres a traitor would be the first people calling for him to be shipped out if his form dropped.

gafferino

I am 100% sure that Rodgers knows what the best position of Sahin etc is. It just might be that there are some things us fans dont know or can't glean from watching football once a week.

Sahin has been underwhelming the last few games no doubt but there is also no doubt that he is a quality player - we have seen this at times and I hope we see it a lot more in the future. Some players take longer to adapt....who knows why? You would be a rich man if you could predict that.

Don't forget it wasn't so long ago when grunts and groans were expressed in every corner about Lucas. Now we are all creaming ourselves at the thought of him coming back.
Things take time - look at Kess posts earlier on for other reasons - but sometimes it just takes time. I for one hope that Sahin finds his feet, settles and maybe just maybe we may have a chance of keeping him come the end of the season because we would be incredibly lucky to sign a player like him given our current status in world football.

noodler

I'd bit Chelsea's hand off for 15m.

The issues:

1) I think fans are willing to get over things like this.

2) Am I being hopeful in the extreme that he could be anything like he was for us originally now that Gerrard is past it and we haven't half the creative flair Chelsea do?

3) Would he really want to leave Chelsea? Even if he did, would his feelings for Liverpool not be small in relation to his desire to move to another CL club?


Rant over and people can start calling me deluded, stupid etc.

NukaCola

Wouldn't have Torres back. The fee would be nice, his wages would be too high for a club not in the CL.......i'd doubt he'd want to come back anyway, he's not the same player and our attack has moved away from A CF with a SS playing in behind, which he is best suited to.

As for the traitor tag....meh....i think remember him saying he'd never sign for another English club, maybe thats where it comes from. Not too bothered. The fans loved him at LFC, he'll never get that at Chelsea, plus we got the best out of him, thats bigger than a traitor tag to me.....

Anyone

My guess is Torres will be back at Atletico next season as part of a Falcao signing.

NukaCola

NukaCola wrote: »

Wouldn't have Torres back. The fee would be nice, his wages would be too high for a club not in the CL.......i'd doubt he'd want to come back anyway, he's not the same player and our attack has moved away from A CF with a SS playing in behind, which he is best suited to.

As for the traitor tag....meh....i think remember him saying he'd never sign for another English club, maybe thats where it comes from. Not too bothered. The fans loved him at LFC, he'll never get that at Chelsea, plus we got the best out of him, thats bigger than a traitor tag to me.....

He probably have to take a near 50% cut in wages.

Never gonna happen.

Cheaper and much better options out there.

Hidalgo

jenno86 wrote: »

Its different when its a team in the same league.

Oh right, that Joe Allen is some traitor eh, and don't get me started on Glen Johnson.

gafferino

Hidalgo wrote: »

Oh right, that Joe Allen is some traitor eh, and don't get me started on Glen Johnson.

Ha ha fair point....but we really really really loved Torres.

mike65

Anyone wrote: »

My guess is Torres will be back at Atletico next season as part of a Falcao signing.

Agree with that, I bet he'd be happy enough to go home at 28.

Kess73

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

So the whole midfield must be balanced with each player doing a good job in each.role before Sahin gets the finger out...? Some serious excuses being made for this player.

To get the best out of most players you tend to have to start by playing them in the role that they excel in. We simply have not done this with Sahin.


Things like effort, workrate, application etc will be down to the player, and a player can be rightly criticised when lacking in those departments, but when a player is put into a role that they are not great at, then you get results that are not great from that player.


Anyone who has seen Sahin play for Dortmund knows exactly what he can do, and knows what role he needs to be in to do his stuff. He is not one of those players that can play in four or five roles and excel in all of them.


But the flipside is that if Rodgers is not going to play Sahin in the role he is best in, then all Sahin will do is take up space in the team similar to how Henderson does when played. The only difference between an out of position Sahin and Henderson anywhere in midfield is that over the course of a season Sahin will pick up few goals and assists, but the effect on general play will be minimal at best and the team will be carrying a passenger.

noodler

[

rarnes1 wrote: »

He probably have to take a near 50% cut in wages.

Never gonna happen.

Cheaper and much better options out there.

If we sign somebody better and cheaper than Torres in the nest 6-8 months I will be shocked.

Cheaper in terms of wages is surely possible but the other two criterion of transfer fee and ability? I really hope so.



Kess, what is Sahin's best position then? Behind the striker?

mike65

Until the missing bit of the midfield is back (Lucas, who by now is just about the most important player in the entire history of the club!) it pointless having a go at Sahin, or to a lesser degree Allen.

Kess73

rarnes1 wrote: »

I'm puzzled how Rodgers doesn't see this.

Basically, he's playing all 3 midfielders in incorrect positions. Very worrying.

Well to be fair to Rodgers he has to putsomeone in the DM role, so Allen, even out of position, is the obvious choice for that role as he is better at it than any of our other CM options and he did cover that position from time to time at Swansea.


It is the Gerrard/Sahin thing that baffles me. Gerrard is simply not effective in a deep playmaker role and that role hampers Gerrards game for me. He tends to either not be in the final third much (as seen by his low shot count for this season) or leaves huge gaps in CM when he does venture forward and stays there. Basically leaving Allen to be overloaded.

Also Gerrard's shots on goal versus shots taken figures have dropped off this season since he was pushed deeper and they again dropped during last season anytime he was played deeper. Gerrard can be a lovely clean striker of the ball, and has a nose for goal, but if he is starting games 40 yards deeper than his best, imho of course, starting position then he simply won't be there as often to get a crack at goal.

Sahin on the other hand is wasted in the advanced role, especially when the movement in our team is so bad. He basically gets to get the ball and ping it backwards, and in that advanced role he also helps create a nice big space for the other team's CMs to run into and at Allen. All Sahin does right now is help us maintain our possession stats.

The few times that Sahin was played deeper he looked effective. He had a little run in his natural position earlier in the season (against Young Boys, West Brom, Norwich, and Stoke) and those four games saw him notch three goals and get three assists. Since then he has not played in the deeper role once and has been pretty much ineffective.

Kess73

noodler wrote: »

[



If we sign somebody better and cheaper than Torres in the nest 6-8 months I will be shocked.

Cheaper in terms of wages is surely possible but the other two criterion of transfer fee and ability? I really hope so.



Kess, what is Sahin's best position then? Behind the striker?

Deep lying Playmaker. Basically not overly different to where Alonso would position himself and I think Real bought him to be Alonso's replacement in time.

If put in a midfield three, Sahin tends to pair up with the passer in the team leaving the DM to act as the steel behind them.

He can (and did so very well for Dortmund) move into advanced postions during games and be effective, but we simply don't have the kind of clever quick passers in the final third to get the best out of him.

Gerrard and Sahin are just negating each other's game right now and the loser from that will always be Allen as he will get to pick up the slack created.

Lucas coming back(and staying fit) is stupidly important to our play now, and if there is even a hint of him not being right, then we need to bring in someone who can deputise for Lucas so that Allen can play slightly further up the pitch.

missingtime

So we're saying

Sahin --- Lucas

----Allen/Suso

kingshankly

Kess73 wrote: »

To get the best out of most players you tend to have to start by playing them in the role that they excel in. We simply have not done this with Sahin.


Things like effort, workrate, application etc will be down to the player, and a player can be rightly criticised when lacking in those departments, but when a player is put into a role that they are not great at, then you get results that are not great from that player.


Anyone who has seen Sahin play for Dortmund knows exactly what he can do, and knows what role he needs to be in to do his stuff. He is not one of those players that can play in four or five roles and excel in all of them.


But the flipside is that if Rodgers is not going to play Sahin in the role he is best in, then all Sahin will do is take up space in the team similar to how Henderson does when played. The only difference between an out of position Sahin and Henderson anywhere in midfield is that over the course of a season Sahin will pick up few goals and assists, but the effect on general play will be minimal at best and the team will be carrying a passenger.

Whether he's playing in his correct position or not he hasn't shown any sign that he is good enough it's not like he's been asked to play in goal.
Great players can play anywhere look at glen Johnson playing on either side.
Gerrard played all across the midfield to great affect in his prime.
In the 01 season carra played left full the whole season and was brilliant.
If your good enough (and kess you think he's good enough and to be fair your a fair judge) he still should be able to contribute more.

Kess73

missingtime wrote: »

So we're saying

Sahin --- Lucas

----Allen/Suso

More

---

Lucas

---

Allen

---

Sahin----


With Allen and Sahin interchanging to drop back beside Lucas.

I think Lucas back will provide the other two with the platform they need to show why they were bought.

Allen has already shown this season just how good he can be. Sahin has given us glimpses of it in September, and if there is any chance that we can get him back to the form he showed at Dortmund we should take it because I think that right now anyone who did not see him play in Germany must be wondering what the hell is the fuss about the guy. The guile, mobility, and link play he has shown in the past is all missing right now and unless Rodgers is prepared to try and work a way for him to show those abilities, then bringing him to the club was a waste of time.

Luckycharms_74

missingtime wrote: »

So we're saying

Sahin --- Lucas

----Allen/Suso

I would say it will be something like this.



As Kess was saying last week about Rogers probable line up once Lucas is back.
In one of the Being Liverpool episodes BR calls jonjo aside and tells him his idea for midfield. It was Lucas/jonjo/Allen with Gerrard part of a front three. That was before we got Sahin, now Sahin replaces Jonjo in that.

Edit: Kess beat me to it.

Kess73

kingshankly wrote: »

Whether he's playing in his correct position or not he hasn't shown any sign that he is good enough it's not like he's been asked to play in goal.
Great players can play anywhere look at glen Johnson playing on either side.
Gerrard played all across the midfield to great affect in his prime.
In the 01 season carra played left full the whole season and was brilliant.
If your good enough (and kess you think he's good enough and to be fair your a fair judge) he still should be able to contribute more.

All great players, and I don't think Sahin is a great player yet, cannot play anywhere and be great. The ones who can excel in many roles are rare.

Alonso is a great deep lying playermaker/tempo setter, but I doubt if he would excel at right back or in a CAM role.

Pirlo is a fantastic deep lying playmaker, but looked awful in the past when Gattuso was out and Pirlo had to try and play as a more conventional CM. Same thing happened at Juve when Vidal missed games and Pirlo had to try and cover Vidal's role.

Sometimes there are players who are very good at one particular role and very average when asked to play in another role. Players like a younger Gerrard who could excel in many roles are the exception rather than the norm for great players.

Sahin did not win player of the season in Germany by accident. At the time it was a league with Ribery, Robben, Kagawa, Hummels etc all playing to a very high standard and Sahin stood head and shoulders above them all week in week out. He does have the ability and he does have the track record. But he does have the injury break and he does have the lack of games for most of a year and having to adapt to two different countries without much football since his last great season.

Is he damaged goods who will never get back to his peak form, or is he a player that needs the right conditions around him so that he can step back up to that peak form? Time will tell on that one, but given what he could do, we would be mad not to at least try to see if we can get that in our midfield.


I think most on here that have watched Sahin in the past will say that we are playing him in a manner that won't get the best out of him. I also think that most on here, and plenty have said so already this season, that Gerrard should be played further forward in midfield or as part of the attacking trio.

mike65

Lacina Traore is all over the cheap-as-chips websites this morning. Must say I was unmoved by his displays against Liverpool but he may be better than that.

gafferino

Kess73 wrote: »

All great players, and I don't think Sahin is a great player yet, cannot play anywhere and be great. The ones who can excel in many roles are rare.

Alonso is a great deep lying playermaker/tempo setter, but I doubt if he would excel at right back or in a CAM role.

Pirlo is a fantastic deep lying playmaker, but looked awful in the past when Gattuso was out and Pirlo had to try and play as a more conventional CM. Same thing happened at Juve when Vidal missed games and Pirlo had to try and cover Vidal's role.

Sometimes there are players who are very good at one particular role and very average when asked to play in another role. Players like a younger Gerrard who could excel in many roles are the exception rather than the norm for great players.

Sahin did not win player of the season in Germany by accident. At the time it was a league with Ribery, Robben, Kagawa, Hummels etc all playing to a very high standard and Sahin stood head and shoulders above them all week in week out. He does have the ability and he does have the track record. But he does have the injury break and he does have the lack of games for most of a year and having to adapt to two different countries without much football since his last great season.

Is he damaged goods who will never get back to his peak form, or is he a player that needs the right conditions around him so that he can step back up to that peak form? Time will tell on that one, but given what he could do, we would be mad not to at least try to see if we can get that in our midfield.


I think most on here that have watched Sahin in the past will say that we are playing him in a manner that won't get the best out of him. I also think that most on here, and plenty have said so already this season, that Gerrard should be played further forward in midfield or as part of the attacking trio.

You could add Scholes to that list. A fantastic player in his best position (world class in my opinion) but stick him in as a DM or fullback and watch the red cards flow!

mike65

Liverpool U19 18 : 00 Rosenborg U19

Liverpools NextGen season hangs by a thread like that bloke in Where Eagles Dare. Its almost certainly a long fall into the snowy wastes with zero points after 3 games. With the best of last seasons players having moved up to U21 and the senior squad its hardly that much of a shock esp in such a tough group. Still the first two games were lost only by the odd goal so maybe tonights the night to get something on the board.

Here's the team for the first Rosenborg game.

Kess73

mike65 wrote: »

Liverpool U19 18 : 00 Rosenborg U19

Liverpools NextGen season hangs by a thread like that bloke in Where Eagles Dare. Its almost certainly a long fall into the snowy wastes with zero points after 3 games. With the best of last seasons players having moved up to U21 and the senior squad its hardly that much of a shock esp in such a tough group. Still the first two games were lost only by the odd goal so maybe tonights the night to get something on the board.

Here's the team for the first Rosenborg game.

Could be a very open game.The Rosenborg next gen team looked useful and attacking in their games on tv against Dortmund and Inter. Seemed to be very good at playing through the centre, but a bit exposed out wide.

MD1990

is it live on LFCTV?

Handsome Bob

mike65 wrote: »

Lacina Traore is all over the cheap-as-chips websites this morning. Must say I was unmoved by his displays against Liverpool but he may be better than that.

Eh....I'd rather just take Carroll back thanks.

Nuri Sahin

Kerrigooney wrote: »

Don't think I'd go so far as to call him "shite" but he's definitely a bit of a passenger at the moment.

And arranging the whole midfield to suit him if he's gonna be leaving next summer is kind of dumb imo.

Ignore my comment.

I just wanted to join in with the over-exaggerated bollocks being spouted by some.. may have had a few too.

Not saying Nuri had a good game on Sunday or has been out of this world since his move here, but some of the comments on him have been ridiculous and likewise, the comments about other players on Sunday. People should try watching the match again, especially that second half (just watched it there on LFC TV myself) instead of being so over the top, especially when praising player(s) for the sake of trying to play down another. Or perhaps people are that blind, who knows?

mike65

No need to take this quite so personally!

Kess73

Wer Wird Deutscher Meister? :pac:



Might as well inject a little yellow and black.

Tusky

Nuri Sahin wrote: »

Ignore my comment.

I just wanted to join in with the over-exaggerated bollocks being spouted by some.. may have had a few too.

Not saying Nuri had a good game on Sunday or has been out of this world since his move here, but some of the comments on him have been ridiculous and likewise, the comments about other players on Sunday. People should try watching the match again, especially that second half (just watched it there on LFC TV myself) instead of being so over the top, especially when praising player(s) for the sake of trying to play down another. Or perhaps people are that blind, who knows?

People need to remember that he is settling into a new team, in a new league, following a season when he had very little playing time. It always always going to take him time to adjust. On top of that, the team isn't exactly clicking at the moment, and there's not enough quality for him to aim at up front at the moment either.

Francie Barrett

kingshankly wrote: »

Whether he's playing in his correct position or not he hasn't shown any sign that he is good enough it's not like he's been asked to play in goal.
Great players can play anywhere look at glen Johnson playing on either side.
Gerrard played all across the midfield to great affect in his prime.
In the 01 season carra played left full the whole season and was brilliant.
If your good enough (and kess you think he's good enough and to be fair your a fair judge) he still should be able to contribute more.

Agree with you there!

Suso has played left wing and right wing for us, and more often than not has looked very good. On Sunday he played in the midfield three (I feel that in an Iniesta role would be his best position) and changed the game for us.

For me, the strongest team at the moment (on form at least) would be

--- Lucas - Allen

---

Suso
-Gerrard ---- Sterling

---

Suarez