My RIC marked winchester 1897 came in, check out the stampings

harmoniums

Luckily the shotgun was undamaged.
Its pretty filthy, and I'll have fun cleaning it.
In the mean time can you tell me anything about these proofs?
Are they all standard? is there any government markings?


Untitled by harmoniums, on Flickr


Do you recognize the stamp on the receiver? it looks like a lion on his hind legs.




Untitled by harmoniums, on Flickr


Nitro Proof means I'm OK to shoot modern ammo out of it, I'll use light loads though
I think the stampings above it are the importers mark in the USA


Untitled by harmoniums, on Flickr


Untitled by harmoniums, on Flickr


Whats the PW stamp?

juice1304

Cool gun:):)

Mr.Flibble

harmoniums wrote: »

Whats the PW stamp?

Winchester's house proof mark, AFAIK.

Mr.Flibble

harmoniums wrote: »

Do you recognize the stamp on the receiver? it looks like a lion on his hind legs.

London, special single proof 1868 - 1925 AFAIK

rowa

provisional london proof ? have a look and compare it to the one on the top of page 17 here

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/hearings/20061004/imco/genco_en.pdf

cruisedub1

Nice one Harmoniums , perhaps this is the very same one .

black and tans.jpg

black and tans outside hynes pub.jpg

The pictures are mislabeled ,both should read Auxiliaries outside Hynes Pub , Gloucester Place Dublin . Photos were taken after the shooting of a Sgt. Ryan by the I.R.A.

meathstevie

Did that type of gun not see significant amounts of action with the US forces on the Western front in WWI ? Ithaca Gun Company made something quite similar if I'm not mistaken.

mattjack

You'd best give it to me ... you won't be happy with it.
Nice gun , looks great.

Grizzly 45

meathstevie wrote: »

Did that type of gun not see significant amounts of action with the US forces on the Western front in WWI ? Ithaca Gun Company made something quite similar if I'm not mistaken.

It did.It was called the "Trench Broom".:D



Was apprently so effective that the Imperial German high command complained that it was an illegal weapon of war under the Hauge convention,and anyone captured with one or the ammo would be executed on the spot.
Maybe thats still why there is this hang up about the pump being so "unsporting"?:rolleyes:
Anyways,it is basically the standard short barrelled riot gun kitted out with a heat shield and 1903 Bayonet.The RIC Auxie/Blk& Tan guns were the basic short barrel riot version with the RIC stamp and imperial Irish harp symbol branded onto the buttstock

Browning also produced a SA trench gun based on the Auto 5 ,but it never made it to actual combat service.They were either scrapped or converted back to sporting models.

You might be thinking of the Remington model10?It is the lesser known of the American riot guns of ww1,but saw as much action,and is frequently mistaken for an Ithaca.

Ithaca came pretty late into the riot gun game around 1937 They were used alot in 'Nam alongside the Remmy 870,and in a way the Ithaca was a better design,[I'ts another John Browning design !]
It was a downward ejector and loader,was made from a solid billet of steel for a reciver,and had a massive single steel bolt guide rod,where most pumps have two thin rods.No wonder they are still going strong today.:pac:

rowa

cruisedub1 wrote: »

Nice one Harmoniums , perhaps this is the very same one .

black and tans.jpg

black and tans outside hynes pub.jpg

The pictures are mislabeled ,both should read Auxiliaries outside Hynes Pub , Gloucester Place Dublin . Photos were taken after the shooting of a Sgt. Ryan by the I.R.A.

more on that picture, it might be harmoniums gun.

http://www.cairogang.com/other-people/british/castle-intelligence/thomson/ryan/ryan.html

Grizzly 45

Be nice if it was...But there somthing like ASFIK 30 thousand issued to the RIC..
Unless we can identify the gentleman brandishing it in the picture there outside the pub,backtrace his name with whoever has the records of the Auxies/RIC and see what arms he was issued and then cross check the serial number with Harmonious's gun......

Is there a historical researcher that works for free in the house???:eek::D

meathstevie

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Be nice if it was...But there somthing like ASFIK 30 thousand issued to the RIC..
Unless we can identify the gentleman brandishing it in the picture there outside the pub,backtrace his name with whoever has the records of the Auxies/RIC and see what arms he was issued and then cross check the serial number with Harmonious's gun......

Is there a historical researcher that works for free in the house???:eek::D

Don't think those caracters cared too much about keeping armoury records ...

rowa

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Is there a historical researcher that works for free in the house???:eek::D

Plenty of pictures in the links below , suprised to see things like thompson smg's being used on both sides.

http://www.dublin.ie/forums/showthread.php?15253-Irish-Civil-War1922-Photographs

http://www.dublin.ie/forums/showthread.php?15249-The-1916-Rising-Photographs

http://www.dublin.ie/forums/showthread.php?15255-War-of-independance-1919-1921-photographs

Grizzly 45

meathstevie wrote: »

Don't think those caracters cared too much about keeping armoury records ...

If they were part of the RIC,which they were, as royal Irish constabulary auxillires or whatever the long title is,they most certainly would have drawn weapons from both the RIC and proably British army
Doubt that they RIC or British army would have just handed stuff out of their armouries willy nilly to anyone.Just doesnt work like that in police forces or armies.

Just of a point, does anyone know who has the paperwork of the RIC??
AGS??PSNI? British or Irish govts? Be intresting to know for a historical research point.

rowa

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

If they were part of the RIC,which they were, as royal Irish constabulary auxillires or whatever the long title is,they most certainly would have drawn weapons from both the RIC and proably British army
Doubt that they RIC or British army would have just handed stuff out of their armouries willy nilly to anyone.Just doesnt work like that in police forces or armies.

Just of a point, does anyone know who has the paperwork of the RIC??
AGS??PSNI? British or Irish govts? Be intresting to know for a historical research point.

It would have to be the british govt surely grizz, too much sensitive information to leave behind, would have lead to reprisals.

harmoniums

More pics


Untitled by harmoniums, on Flickr


Untitled by harmoniums, on Flickr


Untitled by harmoniums, on Flickr


Untitled by harmoniums, on Flickr


Untitled by harmoniums, on Flickr

Grizzly 45

Lovely gun.Pity it has that ugly choke on it!:(

EWQuinn

http://www.jcs-group.com/military/purchased/fearsome.html

The internet article above is a pretty good one, it has a quote in it per below. Wikipedia also reflects this. I would liken it more to skeet than trap, especially if the targets are incoming.

"A postwar American Rifleman article stated: An interesting if amazing purpose which these guns (trench guns) were supposed to serve was that of shooting from the trenches, a la trapshooting, at hand-grenades, potato mashers, and the like thrown over by the enemy, with a view to knocking such missiles back, to fall and explode outside the parapet. The procedure was taught and practiced at training camps during the war, using dummy Mills bombs as the aerial targets."

rowa

is that a cutts compensator on the barrel ?

Grizzly 45

More like some kind ofearly C lect choke system?

harmoniums

Yes it's an early C-lect adjustable choke added after its tagdh shooting life had come to an end.

I looked up the serial number on line and felt like a right mug, the "records" show a 1924 date of manufacture.
Then I found out the recent controversy about these "records", seemingly they're garbage, the guy made up a bunch of then.

I talked with another man with the real polishing room records (the polishing room is where the date of manufacture is stamped) and he indicated that it was made in 1920.
Hes diving a bit deeper to see where it was shipped and how many we're in the shipment.