Hillsborough revelations due today **SEE MOD NOTE POST #1**

MagicSean

So the long lost "hidden files" on this disaster are to be released today. The families of the victims seem to think there will be evidence to overturn the coroners verdict of "accidental death" for those killed in the incident. I don't see how. To me the whole thing boils down to

-Badly designed stadium (due to culture of football violence)
-Poorly organised police and stewards (down to poor communication)
-Poor decision making by police management and event organiser
-Badly behaved crowd outside the grounds (and reportedly some inside too)

A tragedy all round but one that was contributed to by many different things, all of which have been addressed since. I don't see how anything other than "accidental death" can be the cause. There would have to be a major revelation to make me think otherwise.

******************MOD NOTE*********************

Mod warning from here.

El Weirdo wrote: »

... I'd like to think it is entirely possible to have a sensible discussion on this subject in here. This isn't just about football so I am quite prepared to leave it open.

That being said, any ****wittery from people trolling or flaming, then bans and infractions will be dished out...

iDave

oh not today is it. Que lots of Oirish Liverpool fans flooding my Facebook newsfeed with JTF96 and YNWA.

Davidth88

I attended a lot of football games around that time , I was at Arsenal the day it happened , and had been to Hillborough ( at the same end ) about 4 weeks before this happened so it was pretty raw TBH

The police culture at the time was , if you were attending a football game you were a criminal . You were herded to and fro , crushed by police horses and pulled out and arrested if you made any complaints.

The police totally and utterly were responsible for this . They covered it up afterwards for sure

It came out afterwards that the police pushed people back into the crowd assuming they were trying to invade the pitch , the police would not allow ambulances onto the pitch until much later etc .

It's too late now , and the South Yorkshire police were only doing what every other police force in England were doing TBH

super_furry

You obviously haven't read the Taylor Report.

Don't think After Hours is the right place for a serious discussion on the issue either.

This is going to sound controversial, but you could make the argument that it was football fans' fault ultimately. The police wouldn't have needed to crack down so much, if there wasn't such a culture of violence that comes with soccer. Yes, the police messed up, but you can't deny they had numerous reasons to be as strict.

syklops

iDave wrote: »

oh not today is it. Que lots of Oirish Liverpool fans flooding my Facebook newsfeed with JTF96 and YNWA.

Just unsubscribe from them. Its the 3 1 strike rule. Post annoying / irritating / needless / plain disgusting or poor taste stuff and they get unsubbed.

syklops

syklops wrote: »

Just unsubscribe from them. Its the 3 1 strike rule. Post annoying / irritating / needless / plain disgusting or poor taste stuff and they get unsubbed.

I've probably unsubscribed from most of my Facebook by now for those reasons - my newsfeed is looking quite sparse lately.

Richard Hillman

Some serious loons on the TV this morning. The H4J campaign should really be paying attention to the type of people on TV talking about it.

Hopefully the families get what they want out of it how we won't have to hear anymore conspiracy theorys. No doubt they will all have books out after :rolleyes:

Davidth88

super_furry wrote: »

You obviously haven't read the Taylor Report.

Don't think After Hours is the right place for a serious discussion on the issue either.

I think you are right TBH .

Fratton Fred

Davidth88 wrote: »

I attended a lot of football games around that time , I was at Arsenal the day it happened , and had been to Hillborough ( at the same end ) about 4 weeks before this happened so it was pretty raw TBH

The police culture at the time was , if you were attending a football game you were a criminal . You were herded to and fro , crushed by police horses and pulled out and arrested if you made any complaints.

The police totally and utterly were responsible for this . They covered it up afterwards for sure

It came out afterwards that the police pushed people back into the crowd assuming they were trying to invade the pitch , the police would not allow ambulances onto the pitch until much later etc .

It's too late now , and the South Yorkshire police were only doing what every other police force in England were doing TBH

I would agree with a lot of that (I'm not sure when being treated like a criminal ended though) but the fans who stayed in the pub until the last minute and tried to push their way in to the centre section didn't help, nor did the badly designed stadium and tickets for an end rather than a block.

That said, terracing with those goal post type anti crush barriers had been in use for decades with no incident.

mitosis

My problem with this kind of campaign is that it won't be let lie until the campaigners get the truth they want to hear whether it is the actual truth or not.

And, yes, I believe the fans hold a major part of blame for what happened - not individually but as a mob.

Red_Wake

I somehow doubt there'll be any revelations, as such.

El Weirdo

super_furry wrote: »

Don't think After Hours is the right place for a serious discussion on the issue either.

I disagree. I'd like to think it is entirely possible to have a sensible discussion on this subject in here. This isn't just about football so I am quite prepared to leave it open.

That being said, any fuckwittery from people trolling or flaming, then bans and infractions will be dished out.

Carry on.

SEPT 23 1989

I was very young going to matches in the 80's and they were not the family friendly places they are today

Hope the familys get what they want

Roger Sterling

iDave wrote: »

oh not today is it. Que lots of Oirish Liverpool fans flooding my Facebook newsfeed with JTF96 and YNWA.

The competition to appear most sincere and affected has already begun in earnest, the majority of whom have never even been near the bloody city.

I hope the families get whatever justice they deserve but spare me the self righteous solemnity you invariably get from Irish fans with no connection to the thing.

syklops

El Weirdo wrote:

I disagree. I'd like to think it is entirely possible to have a sensible discussion on this subject in here

You've more faith than I do.

dan185

Roger Sterling wrote: »

The competition to appear most sincere and affected has already begun in earnest, the majority of whom have never even been near the bloody city.

I hope the families get whatever justice they deserve but spare me the self righteous solemnity you invariably get from Irish fans with no connection to the thing.

I'm 21 years old. Wasn't alive in 1989. Not born in Liverpool. But I have a connection, I'm a liverpool fan. I've met some family members of the victims, I spent countless hours designing a flag or remembrance that now sits proudly on The Kop at every Liverpool home game, I've put that design on tshirts and raised valuable funds for Hope for Hillsborough and Anne Williams, I've cried my eyes out most April 15ths since I've been old enough to fully understand the outcome, I've left flowers and tshirts at the Hillsborough flame at Anfield on a Tuesday afternoon when nobody is about and I've thorn my throat chanting for Justice at many a match.

Very very few of my friends on facebook will know all this.

But this is still my profile picture for today. Whether anyone likes it or not. And it's not because of the above paragraph I've written. It's because I'm a Liverpool fan first and foremost and this tragedy and the likes of today effects us big time.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/603297_10151063809942895_1257607820_n.jpg

MagicSean

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I would agree with a lot of that (I'm not sure when being treated like a criminal ended though) but the fans who stayed in the pub until the last minute and tried to push their way in to the centre section didn't help, nor did the badly designed stadium and tickets for an end rather than a block.

That said, terracing with those goal post type anti crush barriers had been in use for decades with no incident.

There's no doubt the adversarial relationship between "fans" and police was likely the biggest issue. It's a shame that it was the real supporters that suffered as a result of the violence brought into the game by drunken morons

El Weirdo wrote: »

I disagree. I'd like to think it is entirely possible to have a sensible discussion on this subject in here. This isn't just about football so I am quite prepared to leave it open.

That being said, any fuckwittery from people trolling or flaming, then bans and infractions will be dished out.

Carry on.

I reckoned there'd be a better chance of it remaining here than in the soccer forum.

Opie

People who havent followed the Hillsborough for Justice campaign probably shouldnt be commenting on it because the families are looking for more than an apology for what happened on that day. They are looking for people to be held accountable for their actions during and after, when South Yorkshire Police tried to cover up their culpibility in it. They want people like Kelvin MacKenzie to be held accountable for the disgusting coverage given by his rag The Sun, blaming Liverpool fans on the whole thing and accusing them of robbing from the dead and urinating on the bodies. They want the Government, ie Margaret Thatcher to be held accountable for her Governments role in it all too. People will be forever haunted by Hillsborough, not just Liverpool people who were there, but people who witnessed it, both at the stadium or from afar. I remember reading about Nottingham Forest fans who there, who have said it haunts them to this day, but no-one ever thinks of the impact it had on them, just because it was rival fans who died. This was not a tragedy based on rioting fans, like some people try to portray, so i dont accept that the fans have any culpiblity in it.

mitosis

Roger Sterling wrote: »

The competition to appear most sincere and affected has already begun in earnest, the majority of whom have never even been near the bloody city.

I hope the families get whatever justice they deserve but spare me the self righteous solemnity you invariably get from Irish fans with no connection to the thing.

I have to agree with this. It's akin to the Munich hand-wringing from Man U fans.

Plazaman

Fortunatley a lot of modern day logistics for football matches came out of the lessons learned from Hillborough so out of tragedy came something good.

I'm hoping these documents will be available online for all to view as it's hard to know what to believe being reported down through the years be it bad policing, troublemakers in the crowd, poor ticketing and checking system, poor communication between stewards and bad layout of the stadium.

Link if anyone has it.

mikom

Will be interesting to "read" what the Sun "newspaper" will have to say about this tomorrow.

dan185

Plazaman wrote: »

Fortunatley a lot of modern day logistics for football matches came out of the lessons learned from Hillborough so out of tragedy came something good.

I'm hoping these documents will be available online for all to view as it's hard to know what to believe being reported down through the years be it bad policing, troublemakers in the crowd, poor ticketing and checking system, poor communication between stewards and bad layout of the stadium.

Link if anyone has it.

the liverpool echo will post the papers to their website later today, there's a media embargo until 12.30.

super_furry

Plazaman wrote: »

Link if anyone has it.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/exclusive-hillsborough--police-did-doctor-evidence-in-bid-to-avoid-blame-8126233.html

The official announcement won't be made until 12.30pm, but the Independent have seen four unpublished police statements that proves they doctored evidence.

bijapos

Deleted User wrote: »

This is going to sound controversial, but you could make the argument that it was football fans' fault ultimately. The police wouldn't have needed to crack down so much, if there wasn't such a culture of violence that comes with soccer. Yes, the police messed up, but you can't deny they had numerous reasons to be as strict.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I would agree with a lot of that (I'm not sure when being treated like a criminal ended though) but the fans who stayed in the pub until the last minute and tried to push their way in to the centre section didn't help, nor did the badly designed stadium and tickets for an end rather than a block.

Two points on this:

Firstly the police knew to expect a certain amount of people coming in at the last minute, most of them with drink on them. It happens all the time, still does today in Ireland as we have seen a number of matches in Croke Park kicking off late because of Dublin fans drinking late.

The fcat that the police and stewards didn't plan for this is the problem, it was the job of the police and stewards to plan for this and they didn't. The late arriving supporters should have been directed to the sides of the terrace and the match should have been delayed with an accompanying announcement over the tannoys for 15-30 minutes. The tickets should have been coded into blocks in advance and this segregation ahould have been adhered to, but this wasn't done properly either.

You cannot expect someone arriving at a stadium with no view of the stand or terrace to know what is going on ahead of them, you just keep walking anyway.

I was at the Dublin-Mayo semi final a couple of weeks ago, leaving the Cusack stand they only had one of the exit gates open. This was too narrow and a bottleneck of people formed, pretty much all of them sober, but instead of walking out people started to shuffle out. One person trips and falls and you have a problem. Eventually the gate at Sackville Avenue was opened, not by stewards but by a member of the public. Bad stewarding IMO.

You pay money to go to these events and you should expect it to be properly stewarded and policed. On the other hand Police and stewards have to expect certain people and situations at events that they are managing and act accordingly. This was sadly not the case in Hillsborough.

Matt_Trakker

Roger Sterling wrote: »

The competition to appear most sincere and affected has already begun in earnest, the majority of whom have never even been near the bloody city.

I hope the families get whatever justice they deserve but spare me the self righteous solemnity you invariably get from Irish fans with no connection to the thing.

Heartless..... "whatever justice they deserve"...passive aggressive bull****e.

Remembering Hillsborough isn't just for Liverpool fans, everybody knows that what went down that day was an absolute disgrace and the people behind it got off with scot free.

Showing solidarity with people is sometimes the only way to get things to change.
Look at how the Poles killed Communism. Or the aid sent to Haiti after the earthquake, or to New Orleans after Katrina.

Nothing wrong with showing sympathy, or empathy or solidarity with people who have been wronged.

Roger Sterling

dan185 wrote: »

Roger Sterling wrote: »

The competition to appear most sincere and affected has already begun in earnest, the majority of whom have never even been near the bloody city.

I hope the families get whatever justice they deserve but spare me the self righteous solemnity you invariably get from Irish fans with no connection to the thing.

I'm 21 years old. Wasn't alive in 1989. Not born in Liverpool. But I have a connection, I'm a liverpool fan. I've met some family members of the victims, I spent countless hours designing a flag or remembrance that now sits proudly on The Kop at every Liverpool home game, I've put that design on tshirts and raised valuable funds for Hope for Hillsborough and Anne Williams, I've cried my eyes out most April 15ths since I've been old enough to fully understand the outcome, I've left flowers and tshirts at the Hillsborough flame at Anfield on a Tuesday afternoon when nobody is about and I've thorn my throat chanting for Justice at many a match.

Very very few of my friends on facebook will know all this.

But this is still my profile picture for today. Whether anyone likes it or not. And it's not because of the above paragraph I've written. It's because I'm a Liverpool fan first and foremost and this tragedy and the likes of today effects us big time.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/603297_10151063809942895_1257607820_n.jpg

But you go to games. You have at least forged a link twith the club. Thats fair enough.Im talking more about people posting YNWA today just becsuse they think they should without a clue of the details if the case. Its like the outpouring of grief you get when a major celeb dies, I find a lot if it fawning and insincere in the extreme. But if you mention anything at all about the case or person hat they dont wznt to hear you're engulfed in self righteous indignation. Same with Hillsborough.

Opie

Roger Sterling wrote: »

The competition to appear most sincere and affected has already begun in earnest, the majority of whom have never even been near the bloody city.

I hope the families get whatever justice they deserve but spare me the self righteous solemnity you invariably get from Irish fans with no connection to the thing.

What exactly is wrong with Irish Liverpool fans supporting a justice campaign for fellow supporters who died attending a match? I was 8 when it happened and my Da was meant to go over to the game, but something came up in work and he couldnt go over. As a family we went to games all the time. I'm lucky he didnt go that day because God knows what might have happened. My family go over every year to the Anniversary mass and we support in every way we can. So i feel that my family, and so many other Irish Reds are entitled to voice their opinion on it.

Lumbo

mikom wrote: »

Will be interesting to "read" what the Sun "newspaper" will have to say about this tomorrow.

I'm an Everton fan and I wouldn't want to know what those **** have to say for themselves. They treated the victims of Hillbourgh disgustingly.

I wouldn't wipe my arse with that rag.

Roger Sterling

mitosis wrote: »

Roger Sterling wrote: »

The competition to appear most sincere and affected has already begun in earnest, the majority of whom have never even been near the bloody city.

I hope the families get whatever justice they deserve but spare me the self righteous solemnity you invariably get from Irish fans with no connection to the thing.

I have to agree with this. It's akin to the Munich hand-wringing from Man U fans.

Agreed. The two get thrown back and forth between both sets if fans like some sick comoetition at who can be more outraged than the other. Does the victims in both cases no good whatsoever.

And I say that as a Utd fan.

Anyone

Roger Sterling wrote: »

The competition to appear most sincere and affected has already begun in earnest, the majority of whom have never even been near the bloody city.

I hope the families get whatever justice they deserve but spare me the self righteous solemnity you invariably get from Irish fans with no connection to the thing.

Coming from a person who has openly admitted hatred of Liverpool fans, you posting on a Liverpool related thread is not a surprise to me. But I'll take whatever you say, however you say it with the underlieing view that you hate the city, the club, the players and the fans.

You may have changed your style of writing Roger, but the tone is still there.

MagicSean

I don't understand the calls for justice. Surely it should be a call for truth. What exactly would "justice" be in this case?

super_furry

MagicSean wrote: »

I don't understand the calls for justice. Surely it should be a call for truth. What exactly would "justice" be in this case?

For those responsible and those who covered up the truth to be held to account.

Matt_Trakker

MagicSean wrote: »

I don't understand the calls for justice. Surely it should be a call for truth. What exactly would "justice" be in this case?

They use the word 'justice' for these reasons.....

A list of questions that the Hillsborough Family Support Group sent to the independent panel into the deaths of 96 loved ones

G1 —Why did a venue without a safety certificate get used for such a high profile match? Why have Sheffield Wednesday not been taken to task for this lack of duty of care?

G2 — Why were LFC fans given the smaller end of the ground, when they had the largest number of supporters? LFC had asked for this to be changed, why was their request ignored?

G3 — Why was Duckenfield in charge on the day? What were his qualifications/experience/ competency? Why was Mole not in charge, as in 1988?

G4 – Is it true that circumstances surrounding the initiation of a young police cadet in the woods near Sheffield led to the removal of Inspector Mole and the installation of David Duckenfield?

G5 — Why were the controls and precautions that had been adopted in 1988 not used in 1989?

G6 — Why was there a 10% reduction in manpower for the 1989 semi-final from the 1988? 80 more police officers at the Leppings Lane end could have made a significant difference, filtering fans. Approx 980 officers were used for the 1988 semi-final, 1000 for the semi-final in 1987 and 1,200 for the semi-final between Wolves and Spurs. Please can you look into documentation which explains the reasons for this reduced manpower?

G7 — Ref: PC 2302 Powell, Taylor Report referring to the policing in Leppings Lane at 2.45pm. The following passage was omitted: The first thing I said was "where are all the Bobbies, there is hardly anyone there", I could not understand how such a crowd could possibly gathered. I recall in previous games there was usually a large police presence concentrated on this part of the ground, usually forming some sort of cordon. Could the panel comment.

G8 — Why did the police further delay fans making their way by road to the match (ie on the Snake and Woodhead Passes) when road-works were already hindering their journey.

G9 — Why was the kickoff not delayed?

G10 — The people in Pen 3 were in dire straits by 2.30pm and by 2.45pm were in serious danger of losing their lives. Why has this never been fully investigated? See camera 5.

G11 — Should there have been two separate inquests one for those who died inside the ground and a separate one for those outside the ground who came in when the gates were opened?

G12 — Why did only one ambulance make it on to the pitch?

G13 — Who stopped the ambulances from coming on to the pitch, telling them fans were fighting? The ambulances were lined up waiting to come in – who stopped them?

G14 — What happened to the St John Ambulance team who were in attendance on the day? Have their statements and or testimony ever been scrutinised?

G15 — We know a meeting took place between Mrs Thatcher, Bernard Ingram, the Home Secretary and the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire, Peter Wright on 16th April 1989, were minutes taken and are these available?

G16 — Was this the start of the sanitation process to blame the fans for the tragedy? Ingram still publicly blames "drunken ticketless fans" for the disaster, who misled or encouraged him into thinking this?

G17 — Why, when they already knew before they opened the gates that pen 3 was overcrowded they did not transfer people out of pen 3 into the side pens.?

G18 — Why were only 14 taken to hospital??

G19 — Why were police statements edited??

G20 — Why couldn't the accounts from the police note books be used in the mini inquest or anything else for that matter??

G21 — Statements prove pens 3 and 4 were overfull by 2.30 – 2.45pm and people were probably already dying. Why was the order given to open gates and not consider the consequences to the people inside? It wasn't just one person in the control box, everybody there had a duty of care to those attending the match.

G22 — Taylor states: "Duckenfield made a blunder of the first magnitude by opening the gates and not sealing off the already full pens." Other officers in the control box could have told Duckenfield that he needed to close the tunnel leading to pens 3 and 4 before opening the gates. Was this the case and/or was it a deliberate act to undermine Duckenfield.

G23 — This scenario also applies to the implementation of the major accident and emergency plan: nobody in the control box set the plan in motion, although all had been trained in major accident procedures. Will the panel please investigate this in greater detail than Taylor did especially with their greater access to relevant documentation.

G24 — At the mini inquest Dr Ernest Gumpet said it wouldn't be possible to establish life extinct unless a person has had an ECG, so why did only 14 of the victims get to hospital? The rest were declared dead in the temporary mortuary by two Doctors with one stethoscope between them.

G25 — How many people were placed by the River Don, being assumed dead, and for how long were they left– note we have no evidence backing this point.

G26 — The treatment the families received at the temporary mortuary on the night of 15 April 1989 requires further scrutiny: Statements were taken immediately after the families had identified their loved ones, without any legal representation. These statements were then used in inquests etc. The inference was all around alcohol.

G27 — Coroner Dr Popper's instructions were to take blood alcohol levels on all victims — why were no blood alcohol levels taken from the senior police officers and other key officials as would be the case in for example a road crash.

points to the fact that even by 5pm the decision was taken to blame other people and they assumed alcohol played a relevant part.

G28 — According to Senior Nurse Manager Mr. Eccleston (who attended the temporary mortuary at 3.55pm) "the scene was of absolute chaos" With statements like this how could two doctors still manage to certify people dead?

G29 — Why did Peter Wright make such a speedy exit?

G30 — Why did South Yorkshire Police request West Midlands Police Force to conduct enquiries and collect statements from witnesses when West Midlands Police were proved at the time to be the most corrupt force in the country. (Half the force were disbanded for their dealings with the Birmingham Six)

G31 — Why were the radial fence gates of Pens 2 and 3 locked when Sheffield Wednesday were told those pens were only safe if the gates were left open? (The fire service stated it was safe only if those gates remained open!)

G32 — Why was the football club or its officials never charged with neglect and/or failing in their duty of care?

G33 — Will the panel be looking into events as a whole or will they also address individual cases and aspects?

G34 — How can the panel be sure they have reviewed all the documents? How would they even know if they have been given all the documents? Will the panel be aware if there are gaps?

G35 — Can we be sure this review will still go ahead even if there is a change of government?

G36 — Are some documents already redacted? will the panel be able to see all statements/documents in their original form and entirety?

G37 — Funding of Duckenfield & Murray's defence ran into many millions – this enabled SYPA/SYP lawyers to be able to thwart the families on many occasions at all levels of legal and civil proceedings. It went far beyond the normal This employers responsibility to its employees. — should tax payers money have been used to defend the indefensible?

G38 — Why were Duckenfield and Murray allowed to retire on enhanced "ill-health" pensions (and thereby avoid discipline / potential loss of pension) as soon as the Police Complaints Authority instructed SYP to initiate disciplinary charges when they (SYP) had failed to do so!!

G39 — What can be done/said about "lies" in police statements (eg Brian Matthews) – where police statement said he was vomiting beer, yet there was no alcohol in his blood alcohol sample.

G40 — Why were police notes from the day not admissible as evidence?

G41 — At least 9 families still do not have death certificates, they were asked to make themselves and their circumstances known to the panel.

From the Guardian RSS, I can't get the proper link

mike65

This thread is already exactly what one would expect with people posting from a postion of ignorance of what today is actually about - its not about the behaviour of supporters on the day - that was dealt with years ago in the Taylor Report a document I'll assume most you post here will have not have read or maybe even knows exists. Today is about the cover up of police and other emergency services shortcomings (Who removed the CCTV tapes from Hillsborough on the night of the disaster?) and that bizarre linked decision by the coroner to impose a cut off at 3.15 which was just 10 minutes after the true nature of what was happening in the pens at the Leppings Lane end became apparent to the police - the game was abandoned at 3.06. Two ambulances out of about 40 called were allowed onto the pitch where dozens lay dead and dying. To suggest nothing important happened after 3.15 is quite shocking.

redzerdrog

super_furry wrote: »

For those responsible and those who covered up the truth to be held to account.

You would think that would be pretty obvious to people, wouldn't ya

dan185

MagicSean wrote: »

I don't understand the calls for justice. Surely it should be a call for truth. What exactly would "justice" be in this case?

the absolving of blame that was bestowed upon the fans
the defamation of the Sun's lies.

The truth is important, the justice that it brings is as important. Liverpool fans want more than just "this is what happened, lets move on". Liverpool fans want people remanded because of their actions, governments to take responsibilities, police forces to be rightfully blamed prosecuted, further inquests.

Today may be the Truth, but it may also only be the start of another path towards Justice.

MagicSean

super_furry wrote: »

For those responsible and those who covered up the truth to be held to account.

No doubt those who were involved in changing evidence should be held to account for it.

But I'm referring more to the incident itself. How could one person be held responsable for such a massive amount of failure. I know there's a big push to blame the South Yorkshire Police but my understanding is that the officer in charge on the day is dead. So again i ask, what would justice be in this case?

super_furry

MagicSean wrote: »

No doubt those who were involved in changing evidence should be held to account for it.

But I'm referring more to the incident itself. How could one person be held responsable for such a massive amount of failure. I know there's a big push to blame the South Yorkshire Police but my understanding is that the officer in charge on the day is dead. So again i ask, what would justice be in this case?

For those responsible and those who covered up the truth to be held to account.

MagicSean

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

They use the word 'justice' for these reasons.....



From the Guardian RSS, I can't get the proper link

Thanks

mikom

mikom wrote: »

Will be interesting to "read" what the Sun "newspaper" will have to say about this tomorrow.

You couldn't write it.
I have heard that the Sun are to post Rosanna Davisons playboy pics on the website at 3pm today.

Must resist..............

Roger Sterling

Anyone wrote: »

Roger Sterling wrote: »

The competition to appear most sincere and affected has already begun in earnest, the majority of whom have never even been near the bloody city.

I hope the families get whatever justice they deserve but spare me the self righteous solemnity you invariably get from Irish fans with no connection to the thing.

Coming from a person who has openly admitted hatred of Liverpool fans, you posting on a Liverpool related thread is not a surprise to me. But I'll take whatever you say, however you say it with the underlieing view that you hate the city, the club, the players and the fans.

You may have changed your style of writing Roger, but the tone is still there.

You don't have to accept my views but you do have to accept my right to air them . Im glad to see Im not alone anyway and its refreshing to have an intelligent discussion on the matter outside the tribal context of the SF.

Opie

Roger Sterling wrote: »

Agreed. The two get thrown back and forth between both sets if fans like some sick comoetition at who can be more outraged than the other. Does the victims in both cases no good whatsoever.

And I say that as a Utd fan.

That explains your comments so. You know nothing of the facts of Hillsborogh or why the families want justice, and the fact you think it compares with Munich highlights this. Munich was an accidental tragedy, that could not be forseen and could not be helped. A great club was decimated by that and took a while to recover. I would never disrespect the Munich tragedy and would class any Liverpool fan who uses it to taunt United fans as being Dirtbags. But they are not comparable. They same way the likes of Heysel is not comparable. The Hillsborough Justice campaign is not about an accident, its about a cover up. Its not about rioting fans its about fans dying unnecessarily and their families, and the people of the city, being fed lies about what happened.

StephenHendry

hopefully the victims families get answers to the questions they haven't got in 23 years. its probably too late now for people to be held accountable.

mike65

MagicSean wrote: »

No doubt those who were involved in changing evidence should be held to account for it.

But I'm referring more to the incident itself. How could one person be held responsable for such a massive amount of failure. I know there's a big push to blame the South Yorkshire Police but my understanding is that the officer in charge on the day is dead. So again i ask, what would justice be in this case?

David Duckenfield is still very much alive as far as I know (another senior officer on the day is dead)

from wiki

Duckenfield admitted that he had lied about certain statements regarding the causes of the disaster.

AEDIC

Davidth88 wrote: »

I attended a lot of football games around that time , I was at Arsenal the day it happened , and had been to Hillborough ( at the same end ) about 4 weeks before this happened so it was pretty raw TBH

The police culture at the time was , if you were attending a football game you were a criminal . You were herded to and fro , crushed by police horses and pulled out and arrested if you made any complaints.

The police totally and utterly were responsible for this . They covered it up afterwards for sure

It came out afterwards that the police pushed people back into the crowd assuming they were trying to invade the pitch , the police would not allow ambulances onto the pitch until much later etc .

It's too late now , and the South Yorkshire police were only doing what every other police force in England were doing TBH

This +100

Fromthetrees

It was a disaster waiting to happen, I can't link but youtube 'Hillsborough 1981 - Wolves v Tottenham Hotspur (FA CUP S/F)' and you'll see that death was only a matter of time.
The family members of the victims were/are treated terribly and ultimate responsibility lies with the police.
Fortunately, because of the disaster it simply won't happen again.
Every cloud and all that thing.

Roger Sterling

Opie wrote: »

Roger Sterling wrote: »

Agreed. The two get thrown back and forth between both sets if fans like some sick comoetition at who can be more outraged than the other. Does the victims in both cases no good whatsoever.

And I say that as a Utd fan.

That explains your comments so. You know nothing of the facts of Hillsborogh or why the families want justice, and the fact you think it compares with Munich highlights this. Munich was an accidental tragedy, that could not be forseen and could not be helped. A great club was decimated by that and took a while to recover. I would never disrespect the Munich tragedy and would class any Liverpool fan who uses it to taunt United fans as being Dirtbags. But they are not comparable. They same way the likes of Heysel is not comparable. The Hillsborough Justice campaign is not about an accident, its about a cover up. Its not about rioting fans its about fans dying unnecessarily and their families, and the people of the city, being fed lies about what happened.

I didnt say they were comparble!!! Thats my whole point. The only one comparing them is you, which beautifully illustrates the point I was making. You couldn't help yourself.

StephenHendry

mike65 wrote: »

David Duckenfield is still very much alive as far as I know (another senior officer on the day is dead)

from wiki

thats probably the reason why there won't be people held accountable. there is too many people involved despite duckenfields admission. someone mentioned the lack of cctv but surely they must have some cctv evidence.

MagicSean

mike65 wrote: »

This thread is already exactly what one would expect with people posting from a postion of ignorance of what today is actually about - its not about the behaviour of supporters on the day - that was dealt with years ago in the Taylor Report a document I'll assume most you post here will have not have read or maybe even knows exists. Today is about the cover up of police and other emergency services shortcomings (Who removed the CCTV tapes from Hillsborough on the night of the disaster?) and that bizarre linked decision by the coroner to impose a cut off at 3.15 which was just 10 minutes after the true nature of what was happening in the pens at the Leppings Lane end became apparent to the police - the game was abandoned at 3.06. Two ambulances out of about 40 called were allowed onto the pitch where dozens lay dead and dying. To suggest nothing important happened after 3.15 is quite shocking.

For the purpose of a coroners inquest only the events leading up to the death would be relevant. But I'd be curious as to where he got the time of 3.15 from and how he justified it. It seems unusually precise coming from a scene of "chaos".

StephenHendry wrote: »

hopefully the victims families get answers to the questions they haven't got in 23 years. its probably too late now for people to be held accountable.

Looking at the list posted above I think the answers to most of the questions are known but just need to be stated officially.

Wacker The Attacker

In an event of this nature it's very rare that blame can be appportioned to one factor and one factor alone.