Hillsborough revelations due today **SEE MOD NOTE POST #1**

cloptrop

Philco71 wrote: »

Unsure if it has been mentioned already in this thread but the Irish Sun changed the front page apology that the UK version issued yesterday . So only the UK Sun is sorry for it's TRUTH headline and not the Irish version. Shameful.

Did the Irish sun print the story as well . I didnt know that .

Philco71

cloptrop wrote: »

Philco71 wrote: »

Unsure if it has been mentioned already in this thread but the Irish Sun changed the front page apology that the UK version issued yesterday . So only the UK Sun is sorry for it's TRUTH headline and not the Irish version. Shameful.

Did the Irish sun print the story as well . I didnt know that .

They printed the same front page as the UK version but changed the actual apology that the UK version had to something about Gerrard and Carragher instead. So the Irish Sun didn't carry the same front page as the UK Sun. And obviously they're not sorry.

cloptrop

Philco71 wrote: »

cloptrop wrote: »

Philco71 wrote: »

Unsure if it has been mentioned already in this thread but the Irish Sun changed the front page apology that the UK version issued yesterday . So only the UK Sun is sorry for it's TRUTH headline and not the Irish version. Shameful.

Did the Irish sun print the story as well . I didnt know that .

They printed the same front page as the UK version but changed the actual apology that the UK version had to something about Gerrard and Carragher instead. So the Irish Sun didn't carry the same front page as the UK Sun. And obviously they're not sorry.

I mean back when they first published the truth headline . Im trying to check but was there an irish sun back then ?.

Philco71

cloptrop wrote: »

Philco71 wrote: »

cloptrop wrote: »

Philco71 wrote: »

Unsure if it has been mentioned already in this thread but the Irish Sun changed the front page apology that the UK version issued yesterday . So only the UK Sun is sorry for it's TRUTH headline and not the Irish version. Shameful.

Did the Irish sun print the story as well . I didnt know that .

They printed the same front page as the UK version but changed the actual apology that the UK version had to something about Gerrard and Carragher instead. So the Irish Sun didn't carry the same front page as the UK Sun. And obviously they're not sorry.

I mean back when they first published the truth headline . Im trying to check but was there an irish sun back then ?.

They sold the UK version over here in the 80s

Latchy

padd b1975 wrote: »

I have seen the Sun being bought in Liverpool newsagents by Liverpool people on loads of occasions.

padd b1975 wrote: »

I am in Liverpool several times per month and any time I wanted to buy a copy it was on sale, no comment was passed to me for buying it by either staff or other customers.

Of course you can buy the sun in Liverpool or anywhere else in Britain but it will never get back the % of readership it lost and quite rightly to ,the people of Liverpool are not stupid and they will never let the sun newspaper forget that evil headline .

srm23

havent got a chance to read much about this other than people slamming the police and the sun.

what exactly do they mean by 41 lives "could have" been saved?

cloptrop

srm23 wrote: »

havent got a chance to read much about this other than people slamming the police and the sun.

what exactly do they mean by 41 lives "could have" been saved?

Ambulances werent allowed in

marco_polo

srm23 wrote: »

havent got a chance to read much about this other than people slamming the police and the sun.

what exactly do they mean by 41 lives "could have" been saved?

It is more too do with the original inquest which ruled that all the victims had already suffered fatal traumatic asphyxiation injuries by 3.15 so no treatment after that point could have saved them anyway. Therefore no evidence from after this time was taken into account at the original inquest. Essentially this has the effect of completely letting the emergency services off the hook for the absence of proper medical attention for a long period well beyond 3.15. (By that time the police had barely even realised what was happening).

The new report is basically saying that the nature of the injuries that those 41 people had received were such that they may not have been beyond saving by 3.15 had the proper medical assistance been forthcoming.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/shock-as-families-learn-how-41-need-not-have-died-3228065.html

Opie

cloptrop wrote: »

Ambulances werent allowed in

1 ambulance let in while 41 ambulances waited outside. Outrageous to think about it. Read about the 1 ambulance driver who did get in, said it was like a meat wagon with people trying to load the injured on it and him eventually having to turn them away. Heartbreaking stuff.

srm23

King Kenny should have worn a Suarez t-shirt to the memorial.

Mint Sauce

srm23 wrote: »

King Kenny should have worn a Suarez t-shirt to the memorial.

What the hell has that got to do with Hilsborough?!?!

Tipsy McSwagger

irish-stew wrote: »

What the hell has that got to do with Hilsborough?!?!

Read his first post again. He is a troll so ignore him.

Opie

srm23 wrote: »

King Kenny should have worn a Suarez t-shirt to the memorial.

Thanks, great insight there. I can't believe this hasn't been brought up before as it is clearly the burning question on everyone's lips about the loss of 96 lives and subsequent cover up. Tit.

Super-Rush

srm23 wrote: »

King Kenny should have worn a Suarez t-shirt to the memorial.

Not funny or relevant to the thread tbh.

First and only warning.

Latchy

Hillsborough accused: Pressure mounts on those in the frame for failings and cover-up


Some startling revelations from the Hillsborough Independent Panel in the Liverpool Echo tonight including ...

'' Bollocks ...no one would have been killed ''

^ Sheffield Wednesday FC chairman Bill McGee

After an FA cup semi final 8 years earlier saw 38 fans scramble for safety from the Leppings Lane pen .In the aftermath SWFC and South Yorkshire police argued '' SWFC were preoccupied to prevent potential disorder '' .SWFC primary concern was to limit costs .''


Read More http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/2012/09/14/hillsborough-accused-pressure-mounts-on-those-in-the-frame-for-failings-and-cover-up-100252-31833105/#ixzz26TOtBmRR

The Miners Strike ,and the biggest cover up of them all ...The Hillsborough tragedy .

^ These summon up what Thatchers Britain was about back in the 1970/ 80s .

cometogether

Glad to see the truth emerge at last. The way in which the 96 dead's names, along with those of the survivors, have been dragged through the mud for the past twenty three years is bloody disgusting. Now for justice and convictions.

Tipsy McSwagger

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/

Hillsborough Independent Panel
Disclosed Material and Report

markesmith

Am I the only one who feels uncomfortable about this? It's like we're all supposed to feel the exact same way, any dissenting opinion is just flamed out of it.

Some points:
- Crowd barriers were erected as a result of hooliganism.
- Heysel had happened just four years prior; all English teams banned from Europe. Liverpool fans had a reputation.
- A lot of fans arrived late.
- A lot of fans had fraudulent tickets.
- The police were worried about a human crush outside the ground.

Now look, I don't read the Sun, I'm not Kelvin McKenzie, Margaret Thatcher, Boris Johnson or Allan Davies.

But four staunch Hillsborough campaigners out of nine people on an independent panel, and now it's a case of "The police caused all of this", as if it was an genocide of Liverpudlians.

I, as much as anyone here, wants J496 and I believe in YNWA, but it's like there's been a whitewash on people's rational thoughts.

I'm not playing devil's advocate, and I fully expect to be nailed for this post, but it's all been painted so black-and-white, cops-n-Tories-vs-the-good-people, they did this to us on purpose and they should all be jailed.

Allan Davies, an innocuous British standup, made a few comments about Liverpool refusing to play on the anniversary of Hillsborough - on an Arsenal fan's podcast - and it gets into the media and there's mayhem. Ironically (given what happened at Hillsborough) he gets numerous death threats.

It's like we're being told what to think, both on this thread and on the soccer thread. BTW I've always had a real soft spot for the city and the team.

Run_to_da_hills

Philco71 wrote: »

Unsure if it has been mentioned already in this thread but the Irish Sun changed the front page apology that the UK version issued yesterday . So only the UK Sun is sorry for it's TRUTH headline and not the Irish version. Shameful.

Its sick that this tit rag could not show the same headline on its Irish edition, There is a lot of interest and loyalty towards UK league football here and at least they could show some dignity.

Latchy

The fact that it took the deaths of 96 people for all seating and safety at stadiums tells it's own story but then as many of us have known all along as has been said on this thread many times ,fans back then were treated like cattle .

You only now have to look at the pre match games when Sky or any of the other networks pan the crowd and what do you see ? .

You see fans ,fathers and mothers with their children ,couples sitting or standing ,young people with their mates enjoying the banter , doctors , nurses ,solicitors ,dentists ,banking people , construction workers ,factory workers ...people from all walks of life you care to mention and the truth be told this is always what most football fans are , not the stereotype image of yobs which is how it used to be portrayed , although there is no denying that some yobs do attach themselves to nearly all football clubs which us why we now have good stewarding and policing which sadly weren't there 25 years ago .

It took Hillsborough to change all that so out of something terrible ,lessons have been learned for the good of all people who attend football matches now , not just a small elite. Attending a football match in UK is in the main now a much more pleasant experience for all concerned.

irishmotorist

markesmith wrote: »

Am I the only one who feels uncomfortable about this? It's like we're all supposed to feel the exact same way, any dissenting opinion is just flamed out of it.

Some points:....

To try to answer these in order...

Barriers...hooligans.

Too many fans were sent into one area by police.

Heysel...Liverpool...Reputation.

Irrelevant.

Fans arrived late.

Wrong. Many arrived later than they wished because of roadworks, but they were still early for kickoff

Fraudulent tickets.

I didn't see this mentioned anywhere, so I think that this is completely incorrect. Please correct me if I've missed it.

Police...crush...outside.

Yes - because they didn't organise the outside of the ground correctly. They 'fixed' this by opening the gates and sending too many fans into a small space.

It wasn't a genocide of Liverpudlians. If you read the report and listen to the justice campaigns, the police caused it and then blamed the fans and took no responsiblity.

The only reason that you may be 'nailed' is because you are using the 'facts' that were released 23 years ago. It took the families 23 years to get the world to realise that the original official version was a lie. The truth was revealed this week and you are sitting there stating that the original lies are the correct version.

Also, your snipe about the panel. Did you see anything in the report that showed that they abused their position? That they weren't impartial? That they made stuff up?

Latchy

markesmith wrote: »

Am I the only one who feels uncomfortable about this? It's like we're all supposed to feel the exact same way, any dissenting opinion is just flamed out of it.

I think most people are capable of thinking and feeling for themselves ...they are not sheep

Some points:
- Crowd barriers were erected as a result of hooliganism.
- Heysel had happened just four years prior; all English teams banned from Europe. .

Heysel was a result of a wall collapsing which nobody in their right minds from either set of fans could have wished for .

Do you realize that after an FA cup semi final 8 years earlier at that same ground in Sheffield ,38 fans had to scramble for safety from the Leppings Lane pen ?

Liverpool fans had a reputation

I think just like this cover up ,that to was exaggerated .Yobs attached themselves to ''All Clubs ''...some still do

I, as much as anyone here, wants J496 and I believe in YNWA, but it's like there's been a whitewash on people's rational thoughts.

No ...quite the opposite I'm afraid ,people are speaking from the heart about a terrible injustice that has been covered up for 23 years .If they are shooting from the hip , very sad ,extremely annoyed and angry after these truths have come out they have every right to be .

it's all been painted so black-and-white, cops-n-Tories-vs-the-good-people, they did this to us on purpose and they should all be jailed.

You really haven't been following events as they are have you ?

It's like we're being told what to think, both on this thread and on the soccer thread.

You think everybody who's posted their feeling and opinions here on the subject are doing it because ...

'' They are been told what to think '' ?


It doesn't say much for peoples opinions and intelligence now does it ?

Mint Sauce

I'll take on a few of these as well...

markesmith wrote: »

- Crowd barriers were erected as a result of hooliganism.

Were they? I thought it was an attempt to spread fans around the terrace, and to prevent a crush at the fences

- Heysel had happened just four years prior; all English teams banned from Europe. Liverpool fans had a reputation.

As did a minority of fans from most clubs. Heysel has nothing to do with Hilsborough, if your blaming that, why not bring in Bradford, that was found to be inadequat, and its been disclosed in the Hilsborough report that Hilsborough Stadium was also not up to the standard required at the time either, and had also experienced problems years earlier.

- A lot of fans arrived late.

Yes, due to roadworks.

- A lot of fans had fraudulent tickets.

Have never heard this claim before.

- The police were worried about a human crush outside the ground.

Yes, bus as pointed out by my self earlier in this thread, you would think there was more room to move outside the stadium, rather than in confined pens.

Hulk Hands

I think the Liverpool fans and their reputation after Heysel is a valid point as to why the police thought they could get away with blaming the Liverpool fans, and why the media was so quick to rush to judgement on them. Even the UEFA president made a remark about them without knowing the facts, which he apologised for later. But that rash judgement was probably based on what happened years previous.

It should in no way have compromised the police actions before and during the disaster. It just shows what a terrible shower they were when they saw that opportunity to wrongly taint the crowd, probably knowing they would get the media onside fairly easy.

not yet

As someone who has been to Liverpool over the past 30 years I can tell you Scousers are some of the kindest, most decent people you will find anywhere, It broke my heart to watch the day unfold and see the broken families after. I can only think would the rest of Ireland treat the dubs fans the same way if god forbid something happened at hill 16. I would hope there would be support and help from every corner of Ireland which I don't think Liverpool got at the time.

For anyone who wants to see the pride and dignity scousers have watch a youtube clip of the kop in 2007 singing Justice for the 96 for 6 solid min.

RIP96 YNWA.

iguana

Latchy wrote: »

The Miners Strike , Guildford Four , the Maguire Seven /Birmingham six and the biggest cover up of them all ...The Hillsborough tragedy .

^ These summons up what Thatchers Britain was all about back in the 1970/ 80s .

You think this was just a problem of the 70s and 80s. What about the instant attempt at a cover ups following the deaths of Jean Charles De Menezes and Ian Tomlinson? The lies and smear campaigns started almost instantly. With De Menezes they said he was wearing a huge coat then jumped the ticket barrier and ran when they tried to question him. If it wasn't for a civilian administration worker in the Met seeing the documents that showed the cover-up deciding to turn whistle blower those lies might still be the accepted story.

With Tomlinson they pushed his drinking problems to the fore and stated he had a heart attack. The pathologist even lied on his report to confirm this. The police then said the protesters fired missiles at the police preventing them from helping him and that they held up the ambulance causing his death. And all the cctv footage mysteriously disappeared. If a man who worked in the City hadn't filmed him being attacked by a police officer and given that footage to the press rather than the police and other footage of the police pushing away a senior medical student who was attending him while the protesters actually called the ambulance hadn't emerged that cover-up may also have worked.

Which leaves me to wonder how many other cover-ups do succeed. There are certainly some things that don't add up about the Mark Duggan case for example.

Latchy

iguana wrote: »

You think this was just a problem of the 70s and 80s. What about the instant attempt at a cover ups following the deaths of Jean Charles De Menezes and Ian Tomlinson? The lies and smear campaigns started almost instantly. With De Menezes they said he was wearing a huge coat then jumped the ticket barrier and ran when they tried to question him. If it wasn't for a civilian administration worker in the Met seeing the documents that showed the cover-up deciding to turn whistle blower those lies might still be the accepted story.

With Tomlinson they pushed his drinking problems to the fore and stated he had a heart attack. The pathologist even lied on his report to confirm this. The police then said the protesters fired missiles at the police preventing them from helping him and that they held up the ambulance causing his death. And all the cctv footage mysteriously disappeared. If a man who worked in the City hadn't filmed him being attacked by a police officer and given that footage to the press rather than the police and other footage of the police pushing away a senior medical student who was attending him while the protesters actually called the ambulance hadn't emerged that cover-up may also have worked.

Which leaves me to wonder how many other cover-ups do succeed. There are certainly some things that don't add up about the Mark Duggan case for example.

I wasn't saying it was just a problem of the 70s /80s but what was happening under Maggie Thatchers watch as PM .I had actually included Bloody Sunday in my list until I remembered it was while Ted Heath was PM that it happened .

The Jean Charles De Menezes and Ian Tomlinson events I do believe to have involved some sort of cover up because like most I was watching the events as they happened on the day and formed my own opinions from the facts as put out to the public .I do believe that there is at times , systematic shield of protection when it involves police officers because it stands to reason ''protecting ones own '' is part and parcel of the job but that doesn't mean to say that all officers if they feel a serious miscarriage of justice has taken place don't condone it ...they just may have difficulty confiding in some senior officers .

The case of the Welsh 3 who were wrongly convicted of the murder of a prostitute is another example of how police cover ups allow the guilty to walk free .That case is up from another review soon I think .

markesmith

These are all good replies to my original post. I don't want to come across as uber-troll, just that these stories are not black-and-white as they seem and it's often too easy to find a simple villain of the piece when in reality a confluence of factors caused the tragedy. It wasn't the cops fault - they're human, they weren't rubbing their hands at the prospect of this going down.

I remember watching, horrified, as a 13-year-old as the events occured. I was a Spurs fan, but you didn't hear a lot about them in Ireland and Liverpool was (in fairness to Robbie Keane) "everyone's second team".

RIP to the 96. One thing I'll say is, I wouldn't want to have been down the front that day. Just a foot away from safety, a crowd behind you the rock and a metal barrier fence a hard, hard place.

AEDIC

markesmith wrote: »

- A lot of fans had fraudulent tickets.

What?? Where has that come from? Evidence please...

markesmith

Mentioned on a few news reports at the time - Liverpool fans on the pitch at Hillsborough were shouting at the cameraman along the lines of, "Here's my ticket - it's a genuine ticket, there were fakes sold for the game".

I could be wrong on this. It wouldn't be the first time.

AEDIC

markesmith wrote: »

Mentioned on a few news reports at the time - Liverpool fans on the pitch at Hillsborough were shouting at the cameraman along the lines of, "Here's my ticket - it's a genuine ticket, there were fakes sold for the game".

I could be wrong on this. It wouldn't be the first time.

Do you work for The Sun? Seriously though...this whole thread is virtually about lies that were made up at the time....do you not think it prudent to actually check for an ounce of truth in something that you might repeat from 'reports at the time'?

markesmith

AEDIC wrote: »

Do you work for The Sun? Seriously though...this whole thread is virtually about lies that were made up at the time....do you not think it prudent to actually check for an ounce of truth in something that you might repeat from 'reports at the time'?

As in Liverpool fans, on the pitch, straight after the gate had opened, shouting about counterfeit tickets. This wasn't a Sun article.

Just in case anyone thinks I am the Antichrist, I totally sympathise with the J496 cause. What I tried to say that, simply vilifying the 'bobbies' doesn't tell the whole story.

Guy:Incognito

Latchy wrote: »

I wasn't saying it was just a problem of the 70s /80s but what was happening under Maggie Thatchers watch as PM ..

Much as people like to blame her on everything, she only became PM in May 79. I dont think that 7 months is enough to lay "the 70's" at her door.

AEDIC

markesmith wrote: »

As in Liverpool fans, on the pitch, straight after the gate had opened, shouting about counterfeit tickets. This wasn't a Sun article.

Just in case anyone thinks I am the Antichrist, I totally sympathise with the J496 cause. What I tried to say that, simply vilifying the 'bobbies' doesn't tell the whole story.

You of course have evidence of this? Perhaps you need to forward it on to the investigating committee who rather foolishly seem to have missed this vital piece of evidence.

Latchy

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Much as people like to blame her on everything, she only became PM in May 79. I dont think that 7 months is enough to lay "the 70's" at her door.

Excuse my error of mixing PM's up with event's of the 70s /80's .

super_furry

markesmith wrote: »

Mentioned on a few news reports at the time - Liverpool fans on the pitch at Hillsborough were shouting at the cameraman along the lines of, "Here's my ticket - it's a genuine ticket, there were fakes sold for the game".

I could be wrong on this. It wouldn't be the first time.

News reports of the time weren't entirely accurate. I take it you haven't been paying attention to the proceedings of last few days.

As you suggest yourself you are wrong.

markesmith

super_furry wrote: »

News reports of the time weren't entirely accurate. I take it you haven't been paying attention to the proceedings of last few days.

As you suggest yourself you are wrong.

It was Liverpool fans themselves that were saying it, at about 3.30pm on the day.

But you know what? I back down. I'm not a pantomime villain - human beings died that day, it was reprehensible how it happened. My original point was that it's not a clear-cut Robo-bobbies no feeling type thing. The police seemed as horrified at what was unfolding as everyone else.

And I've read the independent report - I'm not some imbecile trying to troll everyone. That's me done. AH isn't the place for this type of discussion; maybe Humanities would be a better fit. AH is the tabloid of boards.ie, and intelligent discussion...well, as the saying goes, "If you stand up like a nail, then you will be knocked down".

Back to Michaela, X Factor, and all the rest with you AH. I'm done.

Handsome Bob

markesmith wrote: »

It's like we're being told what to think, both on this thread and on the soccer thread.

Never let the facts get in the way of a personal opinion.

Hulk Hands

There is a certain bit of Irony here that the same people who refused to believe the official version of events and its 'facts' 23 years ago, are now shouting down any person who has any small gripe with what a panel (with some Hillsborough campaigners involved) came up with a few days ago, and are telling same people to refer to the facts.

Personally, in a matter of this importance, I don't think the current prime minister is going to unreservedly apologise for everything, if the final verdict is anything but 100% accurate. But it's not up to me to decide how other people think. What's the point of having this thread open when anybody who dissents from the norm in anyway is either banned or called a troll? You may aswell just make it a thread for tributes and condolonces to the 96 (not necessarily a bad idea).

Handsome Bob

Hulk Hands wrote: »

(with some Hillsborough campaigners involved)

And? You're welcome to go through the documents that they did, all 400,000 of them. Let me know if you come up with differing findings.

You may aswell just make it a thread for tributes and condolonces to the 96.

Sounds good to me.

uberwolf

markesmith wrote: »

Mentioned on a few news reports at the time - Liverpool fans on the pitch at Hillsborough were shouting at the cameraman along the lines of, "Here's my ticket - it's a genuine ticket, there were fakes sold for the game".

I could be wrong on this. It wouldn't be the first time.

they were shouting "they never checked our tickets"
which is explained, I think, by this:

To answer your points (and they are all covered in incredible depth in yesterday's report)

1. The crush developed due to poor policing and funnelling outside the ground
2. HSE did 3 seperate counts using CCTV - the number of people equated to the number of tickets sold - proving that there weren't hordes of ticketless fans
3. My ticket was never checked
4. The police used a technique whereby the fans were allowed to find their own level - they assumed that the crowd would filter themselves into appropriate areas - of course they all went to the central pens in the absemce of stewards
5. There was no "surge" - just a steady built up of pressure that felt like being stuck in a vice

Simply put the policing was in adequate - there was no unruly behaviour

I hope this answers your questions

link

billybudd

markesmith wrote: »

It was Liverpool fans themselves that were saying it, at about 3.30pm on the day.

But you know what? I back down. I'm not a pantomime villain - human beings died that day, it was reprehensible how it happened. My original point was that it's not a clear-cut Robo-bobbies no feeling type thing. The police seemed as horrified at what was unfolding as everyone else.

And I've read the independent report - I'm not some imbecile trying to troll everyone. That's me done. AH isn't the place for this type of discussion; maybe Humanities would be a better fit. AH is the tabloid of boards.ie, and intelligent discussion...well, as the saying goes, "If you stand up like a nail, then you will be knocked down".

Back to Michaela, X Factor, and all the rest with you AH. I'm done.

If you read the report there was key points that lead up to this tragedy.

1. That part of the stadium unfit to hold that many supporters.

2. An experienced chief police officer being replaced by an inexperienced one weeks before the event took place.

3. no co-ordination between control centre and outside the stadium, resulting in the heinous decision to open the exit gates allowing the flooding of people in with no co-ordination showing supporters what parts they should be going into resulting in said fans unknowingly heading for one part of leppings lane resulting in the crush.

4. The lack of or no communication between senior police and police on the ground.

5. The stadium not having a valid security certificate.

6. Little communication with ambulance service and the lack of authority in getting them into the stadium to help injured people.

There is more but I think that covers some things, Most of the supporters where trying to gain entry into the stadium by 2.30 and according to professional people who were in attendance Doctors etc. there was no evidence that supporters as a majority where drunk or overly unruly.

You cannot expect to come in here and make some unverified remarks and not be pulled up on them and then have to resort to demeaning people by way of intelligence and insinuations that they go back to watching x-factor.
All the facts are laid out in the report. You can argue against it and dismiss it as is your right but if you do you have to come up with factual events and not things you think you may remember but in reality you just pull out of your ass.

Tipsy McSwagger

Hulk Hands wrote: »

There is a certain bit of Irony here that the same people who refused to believe the official version of events and its 'facts' 23 years ago, are now shouting down any person who has any small gripe with what a panel (with some Hillsborough campaigners involved) came up with a few days ago, and are telling same people to refer to the facts.

Personally, in a matter of this importance, I don't think the current prime minister is going to unreservedly apologise for everything, if the final verdict is anything but 100% accurate. But it's not up to me to decide how other people think. What's the point of having this thread open when anybody who dissents from the norm in anyway is either banned or called a troll? You may aswell just make it a thread for tributes and condolonces to the 96 (not necessarily a bad idea).

Are you trying to say the panel's findings are not fact? Now there's irony!!!!!!!!!

AEDIC

Hulk Hands wrote: »

There is a certain bit of Irony here that the same people who refused to believe the official version of events and its 'facts' 23 years ago, are now shouting down any person who has any small gripe with what a panel (with some Hillsborough campaigners involved) came up with a few days ago, and are telling same people to refer to the facts.

Personally, in a matter of this importance, I don't think the current prime minister is going to unreservedly apologise for everything, if the final verdict is anything but 100% accurate. But it's not up to me to decide how other people think. What's the point of having this thread open when anybody who dissents from the norm in anyway is either banned or called a troll? You may aswell just make it a thread for tributes and condolonces to the 96 (not necessarily a bad idea).

Just how is asking for evidence to back up a claim shouting anyone down? That is debating, its a conversation call it what you want....but it is not shouting people down.

Making unsubstantiated claims deserves to be challenged and people have as much right to do that as people have to come on here and put them forward.

K-9

markesmith wrote: »

It was Liverpool fans themselves that were saying it, at about 3.30pm on the day.

But you know what? I back down. I'm not a pantomime villain - human beings died that day, it was reprehensible how it happened. My original point was that it's not a clear-cut Robo-bobbies no feeling type thing. The police seemed as horrified at what was unfolding as everyone else.

And I've read the independent report - I'm not some imbecile trying to troll everyone. That's me done. AH isn't the place for this type of discussion; maybe Humanities would be a better fit. AH is the tabloid of boards.ie, and intelligent discussion...well, as the saying goes, "If you stand up like a nail, then you will be knocked down".

Back to Michaela, X Factor, and all the rest with you AH. I'm done.

I wouldn't take your recollection from 23 years ago very seriously, that's probably what it is, not worthy of a tantrum though mark.

MagicSean

markesmith wrote: »

Am I the only one who feels uncomfortable about this? It's like we're all supposed to feel the exact same way, any dissenting opinion is just flamed out of it.

Some points:
- Crowd barriers were erected as a result of hooliganism.
- Heysel had happened just four years prior; all English teams banned from Europe. Liverpool fans had a reputation.
- A lot of fans arrived late.
- A lot of fans had fraudulent tickets.
- The police were worried about a human crush outside the ground.

Now look, I don't read the Sun, I'm not Kelvin McKenzie, Margaret Thatcher, Boris Johnson or Allan Davies.

But four staunch Hillsborough campaigners out of nine people on an independent panel, and now it's a case of "The police caused all of this", as if it was an genocide of Liverpudlians.

I, as much as anyone here, wants J496 and I believe in YNWA, but it's like there's been a whitewash on people's rational thoughts.

I'm not playing devil's advocate, and I fully expect to be nailed for this post, but it's all been painted so black-and-white, cops-n-Tories-vs-the-good-people, they did this to us on purpose and they should all be jailed.

Allan Davies, an innocuous British standup, made a few comments about Liverpool refusing to play on the anniversary of Hillsborough - on an Arsenal fan's podcast - and it gets into the media and there's mayhem. Ironically (given what happened at Hillsborough) he gets numerous death threats.

It's like we're being told what to think, both on this thread and on the soccer thread. BTW I've always had a real soft spot for the city and the team.

I think you have to seperate the two things. Nobody is suggesting that the police deliberately crushed fans with the intention of causing injury. It was pure negligence and the part of management. To suggest some kind of sinister motive beind it would be ridiculous.

On the other hand, the cover up afterwards was as deliberate as you can get.

steddyeddy

MagicSean wrote: »

I think you have to seperate the two things. Nobody is suggesting that the police deliberately crushed fans with the intention of causing injury. It was pure negligence and the part of management. To suggest some kind of sinister motive beind it would be ridiculous.

On the other hand, the cover up afterwards was as deliberate as you can get.

But there is a sinister force behind the negligence and its called apathy. To quote a cop's threat to Frank Serpico after reporting police corruption "All it takes is for us is to do nothing".These "cops" thought little of those victims that day and all they had to do is nothing. That in itself is sinister. deliberate inaction is a deliberate action.

Mint Sauce

Sorry if its been posted already, but seen this on FB earlier on.

1989, just another game, was it just a football match, and did I die for blame? April was the month, 15th was the date, time was on my side you know, cos I was never late. Butties for my journey, money off my dad, scarf around my little neck, I am my Mothers lad. Oh the mighty reds, semi final day, couldn’t wait to see my team, I wasn’t drunk okay? Singing on the coach, waving mum goodbye, blow a kiss and see her smile, I didn’t mean to die? Got my ticket here, in my tracksuit top, it was red and white of course, like my old famous Kop. What an atmosphere, walking to the ground, thousands of supporters sing, I’m feeling safe and sound. Turn-style over there, feel a little push, what’s the need to swear at me, this copper in a rush? Something isn’t right, feeling threatened now, hoarded like an animal, but I’ll get in somehow? I can see gate C, there is something wrong, men on horses lose control, I still hear that song. This anthem was my last, frightened on my own, I lost my dad along the way, my need to walk alone. The gate was opened wide, they let us in as one, released my fear and said a prayer, where has my daddy gone? Carried by a wave, women kids and men, there was no escape for me, inside this little pen. Nowhere left to go, crying for my dad, Mum I need a little help, cos this is really bad. Coming up for air, there was not enough, taking breath that wasn’t there, already out of puff. Falling to the floor, someone help me please, lift me up and carry me, just get me off my knees. What is going on? Why am I in here? I have come to watch my team, instead I shed a tear. Why is that man still? Horror on his face, get me out before I die, my only saving grace. The song I love has gone, replaced with cries and screams, this is not what I came for, so distant from my dreams? Lost within a wall, of dying souls like me, my eyes they close as I give up, I’m drowning in this sea. I gasp again for air, but it is way too late, my fight has gone with my last breath, resigned I am to fate. Oh my Mammies tears, the Mersey they will fill, the sorrow of this Saturday, will have to wait until. Justice being served, I’m angry that I’m dead, amongst the 96 that day, I was to blame they said? The sun they printed truth, of lie’s upon their lie’s, with politicians who were bent, the men I now despise. The police who got it wrong, the carers I don’t trust, the paramedics lied to me, to cover up a must? Say a prayer for me, for I have sorely gone, and long before my time I add, this justice for no one. I am a lonely soul, who longs to be a peace, my mum and dad need peace as well, their pain will never cease. But on this special day, the truth is plain to see, that I was not to blame that day, this truth is sent by me. My spirit lingers on, cos we shall not be moved, a son who went so far away, a sin that will be proved. I stand in silent awe, beside my loyal friends, the 96 including me, our resting now depends. On evidence so clear, the public my domain, I’ll rise above deceitful men, to be with you again. The light that shines for me, exonerates the blame, the truth is out and I will live, as your eternal flame. I Love you mum and dad, I love you Merseyside, I love you all across the park, together we have pride. The time has come to rest, so please don’t be too sad, I’ll get the truth to you somehow, so trust in me your lad.

Opie

Can't believe people are trying to question the integrity of the Hillsborough independent panel. So what if there were scousers on the panel, and so what if there was campaigners on the panel? They haven't fudged any reports or doctored documents to suit their own ends. Who else would the people trust to find the truth for them? An independent, faceless panel with no connection to them?

Will I Amnt

Opie wrote: »

Who else would the people trust to find the truth for them? An independent, faceless panel with no connection to them?

Well that's usually the way you go is it not??
I'm not questioning the outcome because it's pretty clear what went on but I was surprised at the setup of the panel to be honest.