Hillsborough revelations due today **SEE MOD NOTE POST #1**

ben.schlomo

Placebo Effect wrote: »

Cause & effect....there had to be too many people in the first place?

Have you read the report, if not you really should not be commenting on the situation as you clearly have no knowledge or genuine insights on the topic. If you just want to troll then do it elsewhere as its a serious and genuine thread.


Hopefully the families can now move on with the grieving process as they can finally not have this hanging over them.

narfsnonsense

K-9 wrote: »

Btw who the fcuk alcohol tests 10 year old kids?

And why did the use the drink driving limit as a measure?

amiable

K-9 wrote: »

Btw who the fcuk alcohol tests 10 year old kids?

It would seem people who are so desperate to exonerate themselves.
I know yours was a rhetorical question but I felt compelled to answer.

Jesus Shaves

Pity Heysel doesnt get the same press and attention
the whole hillsborough thing is getting worse than the 9/11 media whore mongering.

Lingua Franca

Placebo Effect wrote: »

Cause & effect....there had to be too many people in the first place?

Is that a real question?

The police chose to put the Nottingham Forest fans in the Spion Kop End of the ground, which had a capacity of 21,000. The Liverpool supporters were assigned to the Leppings Lane End of the stadium, which could only hold 14,600 fans, even though Liverpool were regarded as having a larger support than Nottingham Forest,[10] as with the opposite arrangement the routes of the opposing fans would have had to cross each other...With an estimated 5,000 fans trying to get through the turnstiles, and increasing security concerns over crushing outside the turnstiles, the police, to avoid deaths outside the ground, opened a set of gates, intended as an exit, which did not have turnstiles (Gate C)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster#Build-up

How are you with maths?

amiable

Jesus Shaves wrote: »

Pity Heysel doesnt get the same press and attention
the whole hillsborough thing is getting worse than the 9/11 media whore mongering.

Like others it would help if you educated yourself before making such a stupid post

Latchy

Just as the family had to wait 23 years for the truth to surface ,it must be a great kick in the hole to all those people who said it was Liverpool fans fault ,simply because they wanted to believe it was .I have just one thing to say to you

Good riddance to your Ignorance !

K-9

narfsnonsense wrote: »

And why did the use the drink driving limit as a measure?

It wasn't even a kid, it was a 10 year old boys corpse. How sick is that?

And then the most honorable and venerable and highly respected West Midland police did the investigation! Maybe sarcastic as Irish people know all about them.

mike65

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/player/bbc_radio_five_live

People are still blaming the fans? Jesus ****ing Christ.

MagicSean

Opie wrote: »

Focusing on the causes of the disaster? What, the fans? Again, it has been proven that the fans were not to blame. South Yorkshire Police are the cause of the disaster, as they made an horrendous situation even worse. The authorities who passed Hillsborough as safe are also culpible, as are those who put Liverpools fans in the smaller end of the ground. Again, fans do not come into the equation....

Wow. it's like people are just reading what they want to. I never mentioned the fans as being causes of the disaster. I placed the blame on four things.

1) Bad stadium design (supported by Taylor report)
2) Poor communication (supported by the unaltered police reports)
3) Poor decision making (supported by everything)
and
4) Unruly crowds outside the stadium (mentioned in some police reports but contradicted by other witness statement)

It appears that on number 4 I was wrong. Obviously i haven't had time to read the whole report myself but that seems to be the accepted conclusion from the experts so I've no reason to doubt it

Latchy

Latchy wrote: »

Just as the family had to wait 23 years for the truth to surface ,it must be a great kick in the hole to all those people who said it was Liverpool fans fault ,simply because they wanted to believe it was .I have just one thing to say to you

Good riddance to your Ignorance !

TBH I can't see anything changing such peoples' minds.

summerskin

Deleted User wrote: »

TBH I can't see anything changing such peoples' minds.

the post above yours confirms that, unfortunately. still blaming unruly crowds outside when the report says otherwise. shame.

Run_to_da_hills

I wonder if Merseyside will ever forgive the Sun Newspaper.

Micky Dolenz

MagicSean wrote: »

Wow. it's like people are just reading what they want to. I never mentioned the fans as being causes of the disaster. I placed the blame on four things.

1) Bad stadium design (supported by Taylor report)
2) Poor communication (supported by the unaltered police reports)
3) Poor decision making (supported by everything)
and
4) Unruly crowds outside the stadium (mentioned in some police reports but contradicted by other witness statement)

It appears that on number 4 I was wrong. Obviously i haven't had time to read the whole report myself but that seems to be the accepted conclusion from the experts so I've no reason to doubt it

Now that the report has been released, what are your thoughts?

MagicSean

MagicSean wrote: »

4) Unruly crowds outside the stadium (mentioned in some police reports but contradicted by other witness statement)

Police will call anything that isn't silent "unruly" when it suits them.

murpho999

Deleted User wrote: »

People are still blaming the fans? Jesus ****ing Christ.

Yes...remember there are people out there who believe the Holocaust didn't happen and Neil Armstrong didn't land on the moon and 9/11 was an inside job.

All numbskulls, the lot of them.

summerskin

summerskin wrote: »

the post above yours confirms that, unfortunately. still blaming unruly crowds outside when the report says otherwise. shame.

It's one of those things that I dunno if I hope they're trolling or not.

iguana

I can't understand so many of the comments made on this thread. It's been as plain as day from the first few weeks and months following the disaster that there was a cover up being put in place, that the police fúcked up monumentally and prioritised covering their tracks rather than admit their fault. That the official statements from the management of the medical emergency services were at odds with the witness accounts and the accounts of some of the first responders at the scene. That the fans were being vilified and were accused of acts which there was not only no evidence of them committing but plenty of evidence (ie the whole disaster was broadcast on live television) that they didn't. A schoolchild with moderate reading capability would have known to expect the gist of today's findings if they spent 10 minutes reading about the disaster and its aftermath.

I can't believe that there is a single poster who would make comments like the one in the OP, never mind that anyone would back them up. Obviously the comments aren't coming from a place of logic, so I can only conclude they come from an intense dislike of LFC and their supporters? Are people really that petty? About football? 96 people (including a number of children) died, another man aged 22 at the time has been in a near vegetative state ever since he woke from his coma in 1997, at least 5 survivors later committed suicide, 5 families lost 2 family members, two expectant fathers never lived long enough to see their babies born and countless people were left with permanent physical and mental injuries. How can anyone care so about sporting allegiance in the face of that level of tragedy that they would deny that which was so obvious out of churlishness? I really don't get it.

billybudd

I am going to ignore the pig ignorant views of some posters in here and just be happy that the families and friends of the 96 are getting some kind of justice today and hopefully in time to come the people who perpetrated the cover up of this heinous event in history are brought to task over their deceitfulness and continuous hurt caused to all effected by the days events.

Three events in Irish times that some people in here who cast aspersions should remember.

1.Dublin & Monaghan bombings

2. bloody sunday

3. startdust Artane

super_furry

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I wonder if Merseyside will ever forgive the Sun Newspaper.

As Kenny Dalglish said in his autobiography....

"Sun reporters and photographers would lie, telling people they worked for the Liverpool Post and Echo. There was a lot of harassment of them because of what had been written. The Star had gone a bit strong as well, but they apologised the next day. They knew the story had no foundation. Kelvin MacKenzie, the Sun's editor, even called me up.

"'How can we correct the situation?" he said.

"'You know that big headline - 'The Truth',' I replied. 'All you have to do is put 'We lied' in the same size. Then you might be all right.'

"Mackenzie said: 'I cannot do that.'

"'Well,' I replied, 'I cannot help you then.'

billybudd

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I wonder if Merseyside will ever forgive the Sun Newspaper.

They should never be, one thing to make a mistake, quite another to never denounce it, just a piss poor attempt and fail at an apology.

Opie

Jesus Shaves wrote: »

Pity Heysel doesnt get the same press and attention
the whole hillsborough thing is getting worse than the 9/11 media whore mongering.

Again, try to educate yourself on these things. Heysel was nothing like Hillsborough. There was no police or government cover up on Heysel. Two sets of fans were fighting, a wall collapsed, people tragically died. However people were jailed for their part in that. I'm sure most fans would admit that there was a hooligan culture at all clubs in the 80's. Liverpool fans know that our own were in the wrong on that day, but again, theres a lot more to the story of Heysel than "Those bad Liverpool fans murdering those innocent Italian Fans". I'm not trying to condone what happened at Heysel, just saying that most fans who troll about it dont know what happened that day but use it as a stick to beat Liverpool with, while mocking the Search for Justice over Hillsborough. 2 very different situations.

Fratton Fred

billybudd wrote: »

I am going to ignore the pig ignorant views of some posters in here and just be happy that the families and friends of the 96 are getting some kind of justice today and hopefully in time to come the people who perpetrated the cover up of this heinous event in history are brought to task over their deceitfulness and continuous hurt caused to all effected by the days events.
Three events in Irish times that some people in here who cast aspersions should remember.
1.Dublin & Monaghan bombings
2. bloody sunday
3. startdust Artane

I would say clerical child abuse should figure pretty highly in that list as well.

Rascasse

super_furry wrote: »

As Kenny Dalglish said in his autobiography....

"Sun reporters and photographers would lie, telling people they worked for the Liverpool Post and Echo. There was a lot of harassment of them because of what had been written. The Star had gone a bit strong as well, but they apologised the next day. They knew the story had no foundation. Kelvin MacKenzie, the Sun's editor, even called me up.

"'How can we correct the situation?" he said.

"'You know that big headline - 'The Truth',' I replied. 'All you have to do is put 'We lied' in the same size. Then you might be all right.'

"Mackenzie said: 'I cannot do that.'

"'Well,' I replied, 'I cannot help you then.'

As I posted earlier, the report shows that in the minds of McKenzie and the reporter they didn't lie. They wrote an article based on sourced information from the local MP in Sheffield and Yorkshire police.

That doesn't condone the Sun from running the story (and not apologising afterwards), but it does look like they were duped by the deliberate smear campaign.

Documents released to the panel show how high-ranking police sources, the South Yorkshire Police Federation and the Tory MP Irvine Patnick were responsible for feeding the stories to White's News Agency in Yorkshire.

They led to the infamous Sun headline "The Truth" that led to a longstanding boycott of the paper in Liverpool.

billybudd

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I would say clerical child abuse should figure pretty highly in that list as well.

yep

Fratton Fred

super_furry wrote: »

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I wonder if Merseyside will ever forgive the Sun Newspaper.

As Kenny Dalglish said in his autobiography....
"Sun reporters and photographers would lie, telling people they worked for the Liverpool Post and Echo. There was a lot of harassment of them because of what had been written. The Star had gone a bit strong as well, but they apologised the next day. They knew the story had no foundation. Kelvin MacKenzie, the Sun's editor, even called me up. "'How can we correct the situation?" he said.
"'You know that big headline - 'The Truth',' I replied. 'All you have to do is put 'We lied' in the same size. Then you might be all right.'
"Mackenzie said: 'I cannot do that.'
"'Well,' I replied, 'I cannot help you then.'

How much did Graham Sounnes get for selling them his triple bypass story?

And he could never understand why the people of Liverpool never took to him.

narfsnonsense

super_furry wrote: »

"'You know that big headline - 'The Truth',' I replied. 'All you have to do is put 'We lied' in the same size. Then you might be all right.'

'

Even if they do this or something similar tomorrow its 23 years too late and wont count for sh!t.

MagicSean

summerskin wrote: »

the post above yours confirms that, unfortunately. still blaming unruly crowds outside when the report says otherwise. shame.

Read the whole post.

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Now that the report has been released, what are your thoughts?

As I said i'm still reading it but it seems the culture of hooliganism in football at the time was a big contributor to the state of the stadium and the police approach. The report details escalating problems going back to the 1981 finals. I think the football clubs and police should take responsability for allowing this culture to foster to the extent it did.

But there can be no denying that the planning and decisions made on the day, the majority of which seem to have been made by just a few high up people, were directly to blame.

Deleted User wrote: »

Police will call anything that isn't silent "unruly" when it suits them.

The actual extract is "Mounted police officers were trapped in the crowd. In
later testimonies police officers stated that the crowd grew ‘unruly’, ‘nasty’ and ‘violent’, but people caught in the crush gave a contrasting account."

Latchy

Deleted User wrote: »

TBH I can't see anything changing such peoples' minds.

No and to hell with them ...they don't count .

Opie

MagicSean wrote: »

Wow. it's like people are just reading what they want to. I never mentioned the fans as being causes of the disaster. I placed the blame on four things.

1) Bad stadium design (supported by Taylor report)
2) Poor communication (supported by the unaltered police reports)
3) Poor decision making (supported by everything)
and
4) Unruly crowds outside the stadium (mentioned in some police reports but contradicted by other witness statement)

It appears that on number 4 I was wrong. Obviously i haven't had time to read the whole report myself but that seems to be the accepted conclusion from the experts so I've no reason to doubt it

So you place the blame on 4 things, including unruly fans. Your 4 things are a myth. You got your information from toilet rolls like The Sun. I took exception to your 4th point, as i'm sure others have too. You are giving fans portion of blame, which we all know know to be garbage.
You came in with very iffy posts which you now admit were wrong, based on the info you had at the time without looking into the facts. Do you work for the Sun by any chance???

summerskin

MagicSean wrote: »

Read the whole post.



As I said i'm still reading it but it seems the culture of hooliganism in football at the time was a big contributor to the state of the stadium and the police approach. The report details escalating problems going back to the 1981 finals. I think the football clubs and police should take responsability for allowing this culture to foster to the extent it did.

But there can be no denying that the planning and decisions made on the day, the majority of which seem to have been made by just a few high up people, were directly to blame.



The actual extract is "Mounted police officers were trapped in the crowd. In
later testimonies police officers stated that the crowd grew ‘unruly’, ‘nasty’ and ‘violent’, but people caught in the crush gave a contrasting account."

Would this be the police officers who changed 164 documents? Yet it seems you still believe them and want to blame the "unruly" crowds.

fúcking unbelievable.

Tipsy McSwagger

The committee just asked anyone from the scum newspaper to leave, luckily there wa no scum reporters there.

MagicSean

Opie wrote: »

So you place the blame on 4 things, including unruly fans. Your 4 things are a myth. You got your information from toilet rolls like The Sun. I took exception to your 4th point, as i'm sure others have too. You are giving fans portion of blame, which we all know know to be garbage.
You came in with very iffy posts which you now admit were wrong, based on the info you had at the time without looking into the facts. Do you work for the Sun by any chance???

Did you not read any of the report? The first three things were directly supported in the report today.

I have already said that i was wrong in relation to the unruly crowd. Are you just looking to argue for the point of it?

Latchy

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I wonder if Merseyside will ever forgive the Sun Newspaper.

No ...I don't think so , it's still to raw and coming after the former editor of the Sun who last year backtracked on comments he made earlier in a tv programme ,todays events have shown that sorry to these people is meaningless and still only weighed in newspaper sales .

padd b1975

Fratton Fred wrote: »

How much did Graham Sounnes get for selling them his triple bypass story?

And he could never understand why the people of Liverpool never took to him.

How many tens of millions have Liverpool FC taken from Murdoch Media (SKY TV) since 1992?

On one hand, Murdoch owned Sun is a disgusting rag.

On the other hand we will take his money to buy players.

Does not compute.

MagicSean

summerskin wrote: »

Would this be the police officers who changed 164 documents? Yet it seems you still believe them and want to blame the "unruly" crowds.

fúcking unbelievable.

Actually it was Taylor who said that the low rank officers were believable.

"Sixty-five police officers gave evidence to the Inquiry and LJ Taylor considered the ‘quality of their evidence’ was ‘in inverse proportion to their rank’. Some junior officers were ‘alert, intelligent and open’ witnesses and as the disaster was happening ‘many … strove heroically in ghastly circumstances’. Most senior officers, however, ‘were defensive and evasive witnesses … neither their handling of problems on the day nor their account of it in evidence’ demonstrated the ‘qualities of leadership expected of their rank’."

Have you read the report?

And i've already said there seems to have been no unruly crowds that contributed to it. I'm actually surprised that the report doesn't go into this more but having said that i haven't finished reading it.

K-9

billybudd wrote: »

Three events in Irish times that some people in here who cast aspersions should remember.

1.Dublin & Monaghan bombings

2. bloody sunday

3. startdust Artane

In fairness just concentrating on those incidents in the North is only a start, but it gives you a good idea on attitudes by law and order and justice forces and it went to the top, judiciary, politicians etc.

Liverpool suffered because of its socialist council in the 80's, one of the few left to break after the miners and Wapping News International strikes had been defeated. A Tory politician was quoted last year in historical papers released, recommending starving the city of funding, he hated it so much. that attitude was common with the Tories.

Not much on Maggie in it apparently apart from:

Mr Cameron said: "At the time of the Taylor Report the then prime minister (Margaret Thatcher) was briefed by her private secretary that the defensive and - I quote - 'close to deceitful' behaviour of senior South Yorkshire officers was 'depressingly familiar'.

super_furry

super_furry wrote: »

And yet it's not surprising. From the Birimingham Six to the Guildford Four, we have a clear understanding of the corruption of the British Police force.

Every police force and government agency is the same, we don't have to look across the Irish Sea or over the border to find it either. FFS even the ambulance service over there changed statements to look after police officers' pensions.

daithijjj

The only thing that matters is that the families of the victims have got what they needed from that report today, that's all i have to say.

K-9

Rascasse wrote: »

As I posted earlier, the report shows that in the minds of McKenzie and the reporter they didn't lie. They wrote an article based on sourced information from the local MP in Sheffield and Yorkshire police.

That doesn't condone the Sun from running the story (and not apologising afterwards), but it does look like they were duped by the deliberate smear campaign.

And other papers did report what they were told, even one of the local Liverpool papers.

For some strange reason it didn't resonate like this, despicable lies never corroborated by anybody.

2ndcoming

The only good that can come from this is, like with Bloody Sunday a couple of years ago, the British authorities put their hands up, accept culpability, and the families of the 96 people who went to a football match and never came home might be able to find some solace in knowing that if nothing else, their lost brothers and sons aren't still being held accountable for the tragedy.

Sadly papers like The Sun and elements of the British establishment will never change, as anyone who spotted the current smear campaign being waged against the Al-Hilli family that were massacred in France last week will know.

Within days of the crime, we have a story about a "family feud" one day, to "searching their house for explosives" the next, I would be absolutely shocked if MI6 didn't have their grubby paws all over it.

For what it's worth I'm not a Liverpool fan, or a particularly Republican person, I just hate to see the classically British use of misinformation and cloak & dagger to cover up their own wrongdoings.

Rubber_Soul

This thread reminds me that while I love football, I hate some of it's fans. How anyone can let tribalism over a ****ing football team over-ride any sense of decency and justice they have is beyond me. 96 families have been lied to for years, hopefully today has brought them even the smallest bit of vindication.

Claire Ashforth ‏@ClaireAshforth Hillsborough mum Anne Williams tells me that for the 1st time in 23 years she finally feels elated.

And that's what matters today

Nodin

MagicSean wrote: »

Convenient to what? Have you anything other than personal comments to make?

Pointing out the notable absence of commentary pertaining to the police and institutional coverup in your OP and its pre-emptive nature is not a "personal comment".

mike65

If anyone wants to see how the Suns "The Truth" was based on lies have a look at this briefing from the Sheffield based Whites Press Agency

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/NGN000000010001.pdf

Opie

MagicSean wrote: »

Did you not read any of the report? The first three things were directly supported in the report today.

I have already said that i was wrong in relation to the unruly crowd. Are you just looking to argue for the point of it?

I'm not looking to argue for the point of it, just saying that a lot of people were on here from the begining of the thread with ignorant and inflamatory comments. Guff that has since been debunked upon release of the report. Yet still you post this:

As I said i'm still reading it but it seems the culture of hooliganism in football at the time was a big contributor to the state of the stadium and the police approach. The report details escalating problems going back to the 1981 finals. I think the football clubs and police should take responsability for allowing this culture to foster to the extent it did.

But there can be no denying that the planning and decisions made on the day, the majority of which seem to have been made by just a few high up people, were directly to blame.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttonftw
Police will call anything that isn't silent "unruly" when it suits them.

The actual extract is "Mounted police officers were trapped in the crowd. In
later testimonies police officers stated that the crowd grew ‘unruly’, ‘nasty’ and ‘violent’, but people caught in the crush gave a contrasting account."

You're still going on about hooligans like its relevant. Police testimonies have been proven to be not worth the paper they're written on.

iguana

Mackenzie has just apologised and said 'I should have written "The Lies" instead of "The Truth." '

narfsnonsense

Kelvin MacKenzie has just apologied apparently.

Augmerson

Rascasse wrote: »

As I posted earlier, the report shows that in the minds of McKenzie and the reporter they didn't lie. They wrote an article based on sourced information from the local MP in Sheffield and Yorkshire police.

That doesn't condone the Sun from running the story (and not apologising afterwards), but it does look like they were duped by the deliberate smear campaign.

They were utter fools to print it.They had an agenda against the people of Liverpool and I'd say that agenda was the overriding factor in the article being ran to print. Seriously, you wouldn't see that story in the likes of the World Weekly News, that magazine that prints stories about Batboy.

MagicSean

Nodin wrote: »

Pointing out the notable absence of commentary pertaining to the police and institutional coverup in your OP and its pre-emptive nature is not a "personal comment".

Yes you are implying an agenda. For your information I am listening to the family statements on Radio 5 at the moment. One of them has said there were two disasters that day. The deaths and the subsequent cover up. Would you like to tell him that it's a "convenient" view point?