Hillsborough revelations due today **SEE MOD NOTE POST #1**

K-9

Chuck Stone wrote: »

What bothers me is the closing of ranks - why did no whistle blowers emerge from the ranks of those who are supposed to protect and serve the public?

Whoever was involved in the cover-up should be fired and sued. Destitution would be too good for the pricks.

Whistle blowers did emerge, a very important part of it.

steddyeddy

The Yorkshire police covered up accidental deaths. It doesnt take a lot of real police work to see that the covering up of an accidental death is a sign of guilt. Poor communication doesnt explain this. Fair play to the families for sticking by this for years. I really dont see how the op can see this as anything more than a bunch of criminals being exposed for the coverup artists they are.

WumBuster

Latchy wrote: »

Today was about truth and justice for the family's of the 96 who will take much comfort from knowing that their loved ones have been exonerated in the strongest terms by the government.

Truth, yeah. Justice no, there is never going to be any kind of justice for what happened. In fact they should drop the title justice and replace it with the truth campaign.

steddyeddy

WumBuster wrote: »

Truth, yeah. Justice no, there is never going to be any kind of justice for what happened. In fact they should drop the title justice and replace it with the truth campaign.

Why shouldnt they aim for justice?

steddyeddy

mikemac1 wrote: »

City of self pity

Maybe it's an Irish thing

Bit of a sick self loathing irish joke tbh mate.

K-9

mikemac1 wrote: »

City of self pity

Maybe it's an Irish thing

Derry would be the NI microcosm.

Bloody Sunday and Hillsborough are self pity and playing victims.

If you agree with that well.............

steddyeddy

mikemac1 wrote: »

I didn't come up with city of self pity, it's been going around for years

And it wasn't a joke

The opinion is a joke.

Gmol

mikemac1 wrote: »

I didn't come up with city of self pity, it's been going around for years

And it wasn't a joke

what are you talking about? Self pity for fighting against media, government and police cover up for 23 years? Shame on you.

murpho999

mikemac1 wrote: »

City of self pity

Maybe it's an Irish thing

mikemac1 wrote: »

I didn't come up with city of self pity, it's been going around for years

And it wasn't a joke

WTF are you on about?

96 people really died that day you know.

billybudd

mikemac1 wrote: »

City of self pity

Maybe it's an Irish thing

Care to expand, kind of hard to take you seriously with two cliched sentences?

On the other hand maybe you have never lost a mother/father/brother/sister/son/daughter/nephew/niece, but on that day over 90 families lost all those!

Shame on people like you, on a day when those families got at long last apologies and truthfullness you come along without need or provocation to insult and trivialise those peoples tragic deaths.

Short version: go **** yourself.

Latchy

mikemac1 wrote: »

City of self pity

That description was part of the weaponry used by the media post Hillsborough tragedy ie,The fcuking Sun newspaper and others who jumped on the easy blame game .

Well today that stupid slogan was shoved right back up the asses of all the ignorant twats who first coined it .

as the man said mikemac1 ...go fcuk yourself

Be here now

murpho999 wrote: »

mikemac1 wrote: »

City of self pity

Maybe it's an Irish thing

mikemac1 wrote: »

I didn't come up with city of self pity, it's been going around for years

And it wasn't a joke

WTF are you on about?

96 people really died that day you know.

94 people died on the day.
One boy died four days later in hospital
The last died almost four years later when he was taken off life supporting treatment.


I really don't get the pity point.

This was like their bloody Sunday , in a sense that they went to something they should have come home from, names were dragged through the dirt and the government covered if up.

El Weirdo

mikemac1 banned.

K-9

There are many parrallels between Derry and Liverpool,

It puts Liverpool in an Irish context, a city that just felt out of place, not belonging and never would.

No matter how Maggie, the Tories, Paisley, the Unionists et al ever wanted.

markesmith

RIP to the 96. YNWA.

Whether it was drunk/overenthusiastic fans rushing the gates or police negligence - it was likely a bit of both - those poor people should have come home from that game.

amiable

markesmith wrote: »

RIP to the 96. YNWA.

Whether it was drunk/overenthusiastic fans rushing the gates or police negligence - it was likely a bit of both - those poor people should have come home from that game.

Read the report

El Weirdo

markesmith wrote: »

RIP to the 96. YNWA.

Whether it was drunk/overenthusiastic fans rushing the gates...

It most definitely wasn't.

K-9

markesmith wrote: »

Whether it was drunk/overenthusiastic fans rushing the gates.

LOL.

Conspiracy Theorist.

billybudd

markesmith wrote: »

RIP to the 96. YNWA.

Whether it was drunk/overenthusiastic fans rushing the gates or police negligence - it was likely a bit of both - those poor people should have come home from that game.

Sometimes less is more.

markesmith

billybudd wrote: »

Sometimes less is more.

My sincere apologies. I did not mean to offend anyone with that previous comment.

wonderfullife

The talent and expertise on the Independent Panel was pretty impressive and they did sterling work.

Having said that, was it wise in the broader context to have so many native Liverpudlians on the panel? Rev. Jones, Peter Sissons, Professor Scraton......

I'm coming at this from an angle whereby if any of the evidence gathered was later used in court, i'd imagine there would be a field day on the impartiality and "independence" of the panel. When one of the key members of the panel has already written a book on the subject reaching certain conclusions , it doesn't speak to any independence, more to a panel with an objective not in keeping with the terms of reference. Almost like a member of a traditionally jury having wrote an article saying "he's guilty" then sitting in on the guys trial.

I think they did a great job, have been reading over it all evening and the work is incredibly thorough, i'd just have that sinking feeling when it comes to the make-up of the panel.

K-9

[QUOTE=wonderfullife;80744979

I'm coming at this from an angle whereby if any of the evidence gathered was later used in court, i'd imagine there would be a field day on the impartiality and "independence" of the panel.

I do admire your angles, I'd say obtuseness was your favourite one.

wonderfullife

K-9 wrote: »

I do admire your angles, I'd say obtuseness was your favourite one.

Ha we're not gonna agree on much today Actually it's 130am so that's 2 days running

Well do you regard the panel as independent, unbiased and objective given the members? I'm not taking away from their excellent work i've been leafing through the report all evening, it's dilligence personified but their "independence" or lack of may be thrown against them at some point in a court of law.

asherbassad

wonderfullife wrote: »

The talent and expertise on the Independent Panel was pretty impressive and they did sterling work.

Having said that, was it wise in the broader context to have so many native Liverpudlians on the panel? Rev. Jones, Peter Sissons, Professor Scraton......

I'm coming at this from an angle whereby if any of the evidence gathered was later used in court, i'd imagine there would be a field day on the impartiality and "independence" of the panel. When one of the key members of the panel has already written a book on the subject reaching certain conclusions , it doesn't speak to any independence, more to a panel with an objective not in keeping with the terms of reference. Almost like a member of a traditionally jury having wrote an article saying "he's guilty" then sitting in on the guys trial.

I think they did a great job, have been reading over it all evening and the work is incredibly thorough, i'd just have that sinking feeling when it comes to the make-up of the panel.

It would seem that nobody really fights for Liverpudlians except Liverpudlians. Because they were mostly Liverpudlians who died nobody cared as much as if they were 96 debutante girls from Kingston-Upon-Thames. People were even so quick to spread nauseating rumours of scousers rifling the pockets of the dead, such is the inherent white racism towards Liverpool people.
It would appear that the only people who truly wanted an in-depth investigation into this debacle were Liverpudlians because to the rest of us....well...fcuk it, scousers don't count, right?

This wasn't a trial, it wasn't an opinion decision based on bias, it wasn't a referree who happened to support one team in the game and hence throw the odd decision in their favour. It was an inquest. The native Liverpudlians on this panel had no power to fabricate or sway opinion, they simply acted the way they should have...the way anyone seeking the truth should have. They just fought harder against an obvious coverup (and they were right) because they felt closer to the dead than you and I who would have given up years ago.

asherbassad

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I would agree with a lot of that (I'm not sure when being treated like a criminal ended though) but the fans who stayed in the pub until the last minute and tried to push their way in to the centre section didn't help, nor did the badly designed stadium and tickets for an end rather than a block.

That said, terracing with those goal post type anti crush barriers had been in use for decades with no incident.

Still stand by that bull**** statement? Were you there? Did you witness drunks or are you just going to now say "well they MUST have been pissed out of their heads"

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/molby-disgusted-hillsborough-cover-160425785.html

You know what pal, the fcuking levees in New Orleans had been in use for decades without an incident (nevermind the warnings). Tobacco was used for generations without an incident. Deep sea drilling has been used for decades without a problem. So when one becomes a perfect storm resulting in catastrophe, your best contribution is that it never happened before?

The Stardust Club in Dublin was a great nightspot in the 70's what with it's illegal fire codes, lethal flammable fabrics and unworking sprinkler systems for ages before a load of people were burnt to death there.

Handsome Bob

This thread should never have gotten past the first page. I'm all for educating ignorance but here we are, 15 pages or so later and we still have posters making their ill informed digs.

danniemcq

Handsome Bob wrote: »

This thread should never have gotten past the first page. I'm all for educating ignorance but here we are, 15 pages or so later and we still have posters making their ill informed digs.

There will always be an ignorant minority and nothing will change their views. They are the people making false statements and refusing to read about the findings of the report.

What i hope this thread has succeeded in is bringing these findings to a greater number of people than if it was closed. It might have helped a number of people to realise that what they thought was wrong and that their opinions have now changed.

Opie

danniemcq wrote: »

There will always be an ignorant minority and nothing will change their views. They are the people making false statements and refusing to read about the findings of the report.

What i hope this thread has succeeded in is bringing these findings to a greater number of people than if it was closed. It might have helped a number of people to realise that what they thought was wrong and that their opinions have now changed.

I'm actually enjoying reading the ignorant posts. OK, people may be trolling for a reaction, but in this case they are embarrassing themselves as the facts are there. For 23 years, Liverpool have been tarred as whining self pity merchants. OK, Liverpool as a city has been outcast much longer than that, but for 23 years the families have campaigned and the people of Liverpool have been mocked. They have been mocked by people on the street of other cities, they have been mocked for wanting to keep the anniversary free (shame on you Alan Davies), they have been mocked by certain media outlets for their continued search for justice. Yesterday this search was vindicated. Football rivalries should be cast aside in this, as this was not about a football team as such. This was one of the biggest miscarriages of justice in British history (and they have a few big instances of those through the years) and instead of bowing to a corrupt government and police force, they fought and fought for their loved ones. This would never happen of course, but fans at every football ground should salute these people for what they fought for, what they fought against, and realise that this could have been any of them. This is more than a victory for Liverpool, it is a victory for innocent people. OK, they have not got the justice yet, but they have the truth. The people of Liverpool who fought to help the dying and the injured that day were cast as being the cause and robbing and urinated on the dead. "Sure its only the scallies, everyone knows what they're like, easy targets here, no comeback on this Maggie, cut and dry"

Sorry for the long rant....


PS, I dont know why that smiley is on this, I cant get rid so please ignore it.

AEDIC

wonderfullife wrote: »

Ha we're not gonna agree on much today Actually it's 130am so that's 2 days running

Well do you regard the panel as independent, unbiased and objective given the members? I'm not taking away from their excellent work i've been leafing through the report all evening, it's dilligence personified but their "independence" or lack of may be thrown against them at some point in a court of law.

Universal acclaim everywhere of the panel, their independence or otherwise is only being questioned by those with an agenda....no matter how slight it may be.

The thorough and unbiased nature of their investigations is a keystone to the success of the investigation, and that is being (rightly) commended.

tbh I think it is a little insulting to all concerned to even suggest otherwise.

Fratton Fred

asherbassad wrote: »

wonderfullife wrote: »

The talent and expertise on the Independent Panel was pretty impressive and they did sterling work. Having said that, was it wise in the broader context to have so many native Liverpudlians on the panel? Rev. Jones, Peter Sissons, Professor Scraton......
I'm coming at this from an angle whereby if any of the evidence gathered was later used in court, i'd imagine there would be a field day on the impartiality and "independence" of the panel. When one of the key members of the panel has already written a book on the subject reaching certain conclusions , it doesn't speak to any independence, more to a panel with an objective not in keeping with the terms of reference. Almost like a member of a traditionally jury having wrote an article saying "he's guilty" then sitting in on the guys trial.
I think they did a great job, have been reading over it all evening and the work is incredibly thorough, i'd just have that sinking feeling when it comes to the make-up of the panel.

It would seem that nobody really fights for Liverpudlians except Liverpudlians. Because they were mostly Liverpudlians who died nobody cared as much as if they were 96 debutante girls from Kingston-Upon-Thames. People were even so quick to spread nauseating rumours of scousers rifling the pockets of the dead, such is the inherent white racism towards Liverpool people.
It would appear that the only people who truly wanted an in-depth investigation into this debacle were Liverpudlians because to the rest of us....well...fcuk it, scousers don't count, right?
This wasn't a trial, it wasn't an opinion decision based on bias, it wasn't a referree who happened to support one team in the game and hence throw the odd decision in their favour. It was an inquest. The native Liverpudlians on this panel had no power to fabricate or sway opinion, they simply acted the way they should have...the way anyone seeking the truth should have. They just fought harder against an obvious coverup (and they were right) because they felt closer to the dead than you and I who would have given up years ago.

White racism against Scousers?

Jesus Christ

K-9

Fratton Fred wrote: »

White racism against Scousers?

Jesus Christ

That was an odd thing to say alright.

Fratton Fred

asherbassad wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I would agree with a lot of that (I'm not sure when being treated like a criminal ended though) but the fans who stayed in the pub until the last minute and tried to push their way in to the centre section didn't help, nor did the badly designed stadium and tickets for an end rather than a block.
That said, terracing with those goal post type anti crush barriers had been in use for decades with no incident.

Still stand by that bull**** statement? Were you there? Did you witness drunks or are you just going to now say "well they MUST have been pissed out of their heads"
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/molby-disgusted-hillsborough-cover-160425785.html
You know what pal, the fcuking levees in New Orleans had been in use for decades without an incident (nevermind the warnings). Tobacco was used for generations without an incident. Deep sea drilling has been used for decades without a problem. So when one becomes a perfect storm resulting in catastrophe, your best contribution is that it never happened before?
The Stardust Club in Dublin was a great nightspot in the 70's what with it's illegal fire codes, lethal flammable fabrics and unworking sprinkler systems for ages before a load of people were burnt to death there.

What bull**** statement? I didn't say they were drunk. You presumed that. (or maybe this is more white racism ffs).

The root cause was a lot of people trying to get in through too few turnstyles in too short a period of time was it not?

Anyone who has been attending football matches will tell you, attitudes changed in the 80s, people stopped turning up to matches an hour before kick off and started leaving it later to get in.
I know there were other factors such as road works, but the net result was 2000 people trying to get in at 3pm.

The police should have been prepared for this, because it was a common occurance.

AEDIC

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What bull**** statement? I didn't say they were drunk. You presumed that. (or maybe this is more white racism ffs).

The root cause was a lot of people trying to get in through too few turnstyles in too short a period of time was it not?

Anyone who has been attending football matches will tell you, attitudes changed in the 80s, people stopped turning up to matches an hour before kick off and started leaving it later to get in.
I know there were other factors such as road works, but the net result was 2000 people trying to get in at 3pm.

The police should have been prepared for this, because it was a common occurance.

Not exactly as simple as that though Fred. People were herded (have heard it referred to in recent times as kettling) into a particular area at the Liverpool supporters end and all were forced/encouraged towards one section (the middle section of 3 if you can imagine it).

Because of the weight of numbers at this turnstyle and the pressure on the gate it was opened up causing more people than there should have been into that middle section. Once the gate was open people just flooded into it

If you see any footage of the day you can clearly see that there is space in the section to the left and the right because essentially people went through the wrong section/gate.

A lot of that was due to how the crowds were being 'controlled' on the day and what appeared to be the small area that the police wanted to contain them in.

If you remember travelling to away games in the 80's Fred (as I do) you will know that the police essentially held large groups of travelling supporters and 'guided' them to the ground, you have an example here of something similar happening.

I dont doubt that there were (as usual) a few people leaving it late to get to the ground, but certainly not in those massive numbers.

Mint Sauce

Listening to some of the findings last night and this morning, I'm shocked and horrified. Even though allot of Liverpool fans and the people of Merseyside already knew/felt that the fans were never to blame, that the Police on duty that day and failed and that there had been reports of changes of their notes, the prevention of emergency services getting access, and then the disgusting reporting of The SUN newspaper, I'm not sure allot of them expected the actual scale of things. I.e the amount of blame they tried to pin on the fans with the alcohol checks on ALL the deceased, the background checks, that even at '89 standards the stadia was unsafe, the actual amount of police note changes, that more could have been saved passed the supposed cut off time, and that there is actually some members of the force on duty that day that are still serving and have said nothing.

I dont really know what else to say, but hopefully the findings will provide some comfort to the families of the 96, that West Yorkshire police will hold a new enquiry, charges and disaplinary procedures be brought to those in charge or who abused their position on the day and in the days weeks and months afterwards during initial investigations, dispite the huge changes in stadia design, safety, and mangement of matches since '89, that things are still reviewed and managed, but most importantly, the 96 can finally rest in peace.

Opie

irish-stew wrote: »

Listening to some of the findings last night and this morning, I'm shocked and horrified. Even though allot of Liverpool fans and the people of Merseyside already knew/felt that the fans were never to blame, that the Police on duty that day and failed and that there had been reports of changes of their notes, the prevention of emergency services getting access, and then the disgusting reporting of The SUN newspaper, I'm not sure allot of them expected the actual scale of things. I.e the amount of blame they tried to pin on the fans with the alcohol checks on ALL the deceased, the background checks, that even at '89 standards the stadia was unsafe, the actual amount of police note changes, that more could have been saved passed the supposed cut off time, and that there is actually some members of the force on duty that day that are still serving and have said nothing.

I dont really know what else to say, but hopefully the findings will provide some comfort to the families of the 96, that West Yorkshire police will hold a new enquiry, charges and disaplinary procedures be brought to those in charge or who abused their position on the day and in the days weeks and months afterwards during initial investigations, dispite the huge changes in stadia design, safety, and mangement of matches since '89, that things are still reviewed and managed, but most importantly, the 96 can finally rest in peace.

Unfortunately i dont think anyone will be disciplined accordingly for what they done that day. Apologies are all forthcoming, but a lot of them will be hollow apologies. There are people with blood on their hands that will never be brought to justice. Does this mean that the best the families can hope for is the admission of guilt from those involved or will they fight on looking for convictions? OK, i know they will look for the inquests into this to be reviewed, and the verdict of Accidental Death to be wiped, but beyond that, what? The corrupt Police officers who oversaw this will not be jailed, the government officials who took part in the cover up will not be jailed. Perverting the course of Justice, a lot of people in power done this but will not be charged and will be boxed off with cushy pensions. Will the families accept this? I feel they could spend the rest of their lives fighting a losing battle if this is the case. I hope I'm wrong on this.

citytillidie

What I cant understand even after the Prime Minister said Liverpool fans are not to blame for what happened you still have people here trying to blame the late arrival of fans for it.

Opie

citytillidie wrote: »

What I cant understand even after the Prime Minister said Liverpool fans are not to blame for what happened you still have people here trying to blame the late arrival of fans for it.

I agree, you still here people, not just here, pushing the "Pissed up fans not leaving the pub", "Charging the Gates" and "Hooligans" angle. This is all garbage...

Fratton Fred

AEDIC wrote: »

If you see any footage of the day you can clearly see that there is space in the section to the left and the right because essentially people went through the wrong section/gate.
A lot of that was due to how the crowds were being 'controlled' on the day and what appeared to be the small area that the police wanted to contain them in.
If you remember travelling to away games in the 80's Fred (as I do) you will know that the police essentially held large groups of travelling supporters and 'guided' them to the ground, you have an example here of something similar happening.
I dont doubt that there were (as usual) a few people leaving it late to get to the ground, but certainly not in those massive numbers.

Were the fans herded to the ground? I've been in trains where the police are waiting for you and you get escorted to the ground, but I didn't realise that happened at Hillsborough, similarly, once thigh the turnstyles (or the infamous gate) was it not a case that all fans go though the tunnel to the middle sections?

It's amazing what we put up with in the 80s, those pens were literally that. We were caged in like animals.

Fratton Fred

Opie wrote: »

citytillidie wrote: »

What I cant understand even after the Prime Minister said Liverpool fans are not to blame for what happened you still have people here trying to blame the late arrival of fans for it.

I agree, you still here people, not just here, pushing the "Pissed up fans not leaving the pub", "Charging the Gates" and "Hooligans" angle. This is all garbage...

Exaggerate much?

buck65

Road works on the way to the stadium caused the delays it seems.

Mint Sauce

buck65 wrote: »

Road works on the way to the stadium caused the delays it seems.

That was the case, but it was the total mismanagment once they got there, the subsequant actions, and the stadia that caused the disaster.

Fratton Fred

irish-stew wrote: »

buck65 wrote: »

Road works on the way to the stadium caused the delays it seems.

That was the case, but it was the total mismanagment once they got there, the subsequant actions, and the stadia that caused the disaster.

It was, there's no doubt about that.

I'm curious about the dynamics of the whole thing. Im just trying to get my head around why they made the fatal decision to open the gate.

Opie

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Exaggerate much?

What are you on about? Are you trying to claim that people, even after the report came out, were not trying to say that there must have been some blame on the fans. They must have been drunk, they must have charged in ticketless, they must have been blah, blah, blah...

As i said, not just in this thread, but on other sites also. How is that exagerating?

Mint Sauce

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It was, there's no doubt about that.

I'm curious about the dynamics of the whole thing. Im just trying to get my head around why they made the fatal decision to open the gate.

My understanding was the total number of fans outside the ground trying to get in, and the Police trying to avoid a crush or trouble, but surely there was room for fans to disperse or move on outside the gates, there was none inside. Thats the part I never got either.

Fratton Fred

Opie wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Exaggerate much?

What are you on about? Are you trying to claim that people, even after the report came out, were not trying to say that there must have been some blame on the fans. They must have been drunk, they must have charged in ticketless, they must have been blah, blah, blah...
As i said, not just in this thread, but on other sites also. How is that exagerating?

Irish stew sums it up.

I'm not blaming the fans, I would have reacted no differently. I think that's what shocks me most.

There but for the grace of god.....

cloptrop

Did the sun newspaper do that story because it was looking that way from the police reports. If so I dont think this hatred for them the last 20 Odd years was fair . They were just reporting the facts made available to them through lies from the police.
If I am missing something I m sorry but maybe its time the sun was sold and bought on merseyside again .

Tipsy McSwagger

3 stewards standing at the entrance to the tunnel for the middle pens directing fans to the side pens would have averted the disaster. They were there the year before for the same fixture but missing for this one.

Tipsy McSwagger

cloptrop wrote: »

Did the sun newspaper do that story because it was looking that way from the police reports. If so I dont think this hatred for them the last 20 Odd years was fair . They were just reporting the facts made available to them through lies from the police.
If I am missing something I m sorry but maybe its time the sun was sold and bought on merseyside again .

They were not facts they were allegations and they went with a massive THE TRUTH, unforgivable.

cloptrop

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

cloptrop wrote: »

Did the sun newspaper do that story because it was looking that way from the police reports. If so I dont think this hatred for them the last 20 Odd years was fair . They were just reporting the facts made available to them through lies from the police.
If I am missing something I m sorry but maybe its time the sun was sold and bought on merseyside again .

They were not facts they were allegations and they went with a massive THE TRUTH, unforgivable.

But did they not get this news from police reports ?

amiable

cloptrop wrote: »

Did the sun newspaper do that story because it was looking that way from the police reports. If so I dont think this hatred for them the last 20 Odd years was fair . They were just reporting the facts made available to them through lies from the police.
If I am missing something I m sorry but maybe its time the sun was sold and bought on merseyside again .

You seem to have the internet in front of you.
Go educate yourself on it before commenting.