Hillsborough revelations due today **SEE MOD NOTE POST #1**

Fratton Fred

cloptrop wrote: »

Did the sun newspaper do that story because it was looking that way from the police reports. If so I dont think this hatred for them the last 20 Odd years was fair . They were just reporting the facts made available to them through lies from the police.
If I am missing something I m sorry but maybe its time the sun was sold and bought on merseyside again .

No one believed the stories when they did come out.

Even so, to run a story like that so soon after it happened was callous in the extreme.

amiable

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No one believed the stories when they did come out.

Even so, to run a story like that so soon after it happened was callous in the extreme.

That's not true. A lot of people believed those stories. And even after yesterday there are still people who prefer to believe the tripe pushed by the sun.


Unless of course you meant people from Merseyside didn't believe?

asherbassad

K-9 wrote: »

That was an odd thing to say alright.

OK, let's call it bigotry or discrimination then. It's the same as people discriminating against Travellers. It's essentially racism between one section of white people and another.

Anyone

cloptrop wrote: »

Did the sun newspaper do that story because it was looking that way from the police reports. If so I dont think this hatred for them the last 20 Odd years was fair . They were just reporting the facts made available to them through lies from the police.
If I am missing something I m sorry but maybe its time the sun was sold and bought on merseyside again .

It is for sale on Merseyside, its just that nobody buys it. You cant force people to buy it. Personally I take any "apology" they issue with a grain of salt. I mean, Hillsborough wasn't the first, or the last time they printed lies.

amiable

Anyone wrote: »

It is for sale on Merseyside, its just that nobody buys it. You cant force people to buy it. Personally I take any "apology" they issue with a grain of salt. I mean, Hillsborough wasn't the first, or the last time they printed lies.

The sun apologized to protect their remaining sales around the rest of Britain IMO

Colmustard

I am looking at the news about this now. I don't believe the police cover up and policy in which they, rather successfully, at that time shifted, the blame to the fans was not influenced by the government at that time. So Douglas Hurd was the home secretary and Margaret Thatcher was the PM. If there is an inquiry I suspect they will have questions to answer.

Tipsy McSwagger

cloptrop wrote: »

But did they not get this news from police reports ?

Not directly. It was allegations spun by Senior Police officials from the South Yorkshire Police and a Tory MP and reported by a Sheffield press agency. Other newspapers had it on their front pages as allegations but The S*n editor Kelvin MacKenzie wanted to use YOU SCUM or THE TRUTH and to the astonishment of his colleagues he went with the latter.

cloptrop

amiable wrote: »

cloptrop wrote: »

Did the sun newspaper do that story because it was looking that way from the police reports. If so I dont think this hatred for them the last 20 Odd years was fair . They were just reporting the facts made available to them through lies from the police.
If I am missing something I m sorry but maybe its time the sun was sold and bought on merseyside again .

You seem to have the internet in front of you.
Go educate yourself on it before commenting.

You seem to only ever have smart arse answers . Here is a link to something I have been reading which says the sun got its sources from the police . Boycotting the sun fir trusting police reports is rediculous if you ask me .
http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/media.shtm

amiable

Apparently Sheffield Wednesday were looking for compensation from the FA over lost revenue


http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/FFA000004890001.pdf

super_furry

The Sun printed those lies knowing they were just that. This piece from the Guardian yesterday is from a guy who was working for the Mirror at the time and how he refused to run with the story because he knew it was bull****.

amiable

cloptrop wrote: »

You seem to only ever have smart arse answers . Here is a link to something I have been reading which says the sun got its sources from the police . Boycotting the sun fir trusting police reports is rediculous if you ask me .
http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/media.shtm

You keep asking those stupid questions and I'll keep dishing out the same answers.
The internet is in front of you. You can say all you like about my posts but I've taken the time to educate myself on these things before I comment on them. It's not rocket science.

The Rooster

cloptrop wrote: »

But did they not get this news from police reports ?

From what I can gather there were four different police sources who fed the misinformation into the news services in a co-ordinated effort to get the story out that it was the fans and not the police who were to blame. This police sources were regarded by the news wires as trusted sources, but they were anonymous for the purposes of the allegations and wouldnt put their names to it.

The Mirror reporters say they looked into it and found nobody who supported the allegation and most were aghast at it. The reporters refused to run with the story and the editor backed them up (they ran a story saying Liverpool people were dismayed and angry at the allegations by police).

Most other papers covered the story as unsubstantiated allegations

The Sun decided to sensationalise it and run it as facts rather than allegations.

kevmol88

Boris Jonhson apologises for article describing 'drunken Liverpool fans at Hillsborough'

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/boris-jonhson-apologises-for-article-describing-drunken-liverpool-fans-at-hillsborough-3228511.html

cloptrop

But bbc radio were reporting the fans at fault for 4 days before the sun article. Shouldnt BBC be to blame as much as the sun then .

Mint Sauce

cloptrop wrote: »

Did the sun newspaper do that story because it was looking that way from the police reports. If so I dont think this hatred for them the last 20 Odd years was fair . They were just reporting the facts made available to them through lies from the police.
If I am missing something I m sorry but maybe its time the sun was sold and bought on merseyside again .

I breifly thought about the hatrid they recieved, but then realised/remembered this. The editor at the time, is quoted as saying (not sure of the exact words) after I think the publication of The Taylor Report, that he would have not done things differnetly. I think that pretty much sums things up as far as The Sun is concerned.

Yes they were just publishing what the police had reported, but it was the why it was done, and the horrendous tabloid senselisation that they were and to an extent that most tabloids swop to, to get sales, and whilst they will never admit it, so is todays front page apology.

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

3 stewards standing at the entrance to the tunnel for the middle pens directing fans to the side pens would have averted the disaster. They were there the year before for the same fixture but missing for this one.

I doubt it, the huge swarm of people let in at once, rather than in a controled manor, heading to what they thought was the correct sections would have been over whemling. The tunnels to the side pens were in shadow, and not easily identifable to those not familar with the staduim.

Mint Sauce

cloptrop wrote: »

But bbc radio were reporting the fans at fault for 4 days before the sun article. Shouldnt BBC be to blame as much as the sun then .

The Sun didn't stop at that though.

cloptrop

irish-stew wrote: »

cloptrop wrote: »

But bbc radio were reporting the fans at fault for 4 days before the sun article. Shouldnt BBC be to blame as much as the sun then .

The Sun didn't stop at that though.

Even the Liverpool daily post was blaming the drunken fans and quotes from that paper are disgusting too. Is this paper blacklisted as well . The sheffield papers were blaming the fans .

A journalist who accepts unverified, anonymous "sources" as sources is an arsehole. There were a few Mirror journalists who told their editors it was BS and they'd resign if their name was put to it. The editors still went ahead with talking about the rumours without outright accusations but it was still very poor.

Mint Sauce

cloptrop wrote: »

Even the Liverpool daily post was blaming the drunken fans and quotes from that paper are disgusting too. Is this paper blacklisted as well . The sheffield papers were blaming the fans .

Did they print that the dead were pickpocketed, and the police pissed on by liverpool fans?

K-9

cloptrop wrote: »

Even the Liverpool daily post was blaming the drunken fans and quotes from that paper are disgusting too. Is this paper blacklisted as well . The sheffield papers were blaming the fans .

They didn't run a front page spread with the infamous headlines as you know.

cloptrop

irish-stew wrote: »

cloptrop wrote: »

Even the Liverpool daily post was blaming the drunken fans and quotes from that paper are disgusting too. Is this paper blacklisted as well . The sheffield papers were blaming the fans .

Did they print that the dead were pickpocketed, and the police pissed on by liverpool fans?

There was one of them reporting about a policeman being attacked giving the kiss of life . An ambulanceman assaulted and even the president of uefa at the time jaques george called them a pack of animals .

amiable

irish-stew wrote: »

Did they print that the dead were pickpocketed, and the police pissed on by liverpool fans?

Add to that did the other papers print their stories with the headline The Truth?

Cloptrop has a history of just disagreeing with anything that is to do with Liverpool.
He'll now claim he/she is just looking to clarify or looking for answers but all the answers are already on the internet or in the report and have been covered by documentaries.

@cloptrop, The Sun got their stories from a Sheffield News agency but it is still up to a newspaper/journalist to validate a story.
They often get round this by claiming ''sources'' but that particular rag printed it as fact and called it 'The Truth'

The Daily Star also printed horrible stories on the same day but retracted the stories the next day and apologized.

cloptrop

irish-stew wrote: »

cloptrop wrote: »

Even the Liverpool daily post was blaming the drunken fans and quotes from that paper are disgusting too. Is this paper blacklisted as well . The sheffield papers were blaming the fans .

Did they print that the dead were pickpocketed, and the police pissed on by liverpool fans?

There was one of them reporting about a policeman being attacked giving the kiss of life . An ambulanceman assaulted and even the president of uefa at the time jaques george called them a pack of animals .

citytillidie

cloptrop wrote: »

Even the Liverpool daily post was blaming the drunken fans and quotes from that paper are disgusting too. Is this paper blacklisted as well . The sheffield papers were blaming the fans .

The Daily post has fallen away in Liverpool that it is now a weekly paper and well you dont get Sheffield papers in Liverpool

The most hate is against that other rag because it is a national paper and at the time one of the highest selling paper. They did more damage to the names of the victims than regional and local papers

Fratton Fred

cloptrop wrote: »

There was one of them reporting about a policeman being attacked giving the kiss of life . An ambulanceman assaulted and even the president of uefa at the time jaques george called them a pack of animals .

Yes, Jacques Georges got off quite lightly. He made that statement completely off the cuff without even knowing what had happened.

He did backtrack quite profusely afterwards though.

citytillidie

cloptrop wrote: »

There was one of them reporting about a policeman being attacked giving the kiss of life . An ambulanceman assaulted and even the president of uefa at the time jaques george called them a pack of animals .

And UEFA president got his information from the then FA chairman Graham Kelly who got his information from the police

ohyesthefinest

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/SYP000000020001.pdf Not sure if its been posted yet but it sounds awful. Must have been terrible to have been there that day.

amiable

cloptrop wrote: »

There was one of them reporting about a policeman being attacked giving the kiss of life . An ambulanceman assaulted and even the president of uefa at the time jaques george called them a pack of animals .

Read the HIP report

cloptrop

amiable wrote: »

irish-stew wrote: »

Did they print that the dead were pickpocketed, and the police pissed on by liverpool fans?

Add to that did the other papers print their stories with the headline The Truth?

Cloptrop has a history of just disagreeing with anything that is to do with Liverpool.
He'll now claim he/she is just looking to clarify or looking for answers but all the answers are already on the internet or in the report and have been covered by documentaries.

@cloptrop, The Sun got their stories from a Sheffield News agency but it is still up to a newspaper/journalist to validate a story.
They often get round this by claiming ''sources'' but that particular rag printed it as fact and called it 'The Truth'

The Daily Star also printed horrible stories on the same day but retracted the stories the next day and apologized.

I quoted an article on the INTERNET . Dont make it about me . Attack the post not the poster . I think the hatred of the sun newspaper is a bit unfair . New fans have come to hate it without question because thats what liverpool supporters do . Ill quote the article i read again for you . Lots of other papers were at it . Even the liverpool ones . The source was a top police dude . Why wouldnt they believe him . Even the head of uefa believed him .
They were labelled a gang of drunks that kicked a gate down to get in by the bbc .
http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/media.shtm

Opie

cloptrop wrote: »

Even the Liverpool daily post was blaming the drunken fans and quotes from that paper are disgusting too. Is this paper blacklisted as well . The sheffield papers were blaming the fans .

While most media outlets reported that the fans may have been at fault, none went to the extremes that Mackenzie did with the Sun. They were all given duff information but why do you think it is only the Sun that got the brunt of it? They stood by it.

The Sun went ahead and published "THE TRUTH". In no uncertain terms they went for the "this is what happened and we are definitely right. The scum of the earth Scousers picked the pockets of the dead and urinated on the bodies and also on the heroic officers who were trying to save their fellow supporters. They stopped the heroic SY Police from saving the lives of supporters who caused the whole thing in the 1st place". Sure you only have to check what the man said in an interview in 2006, i think on Questions and Answers "I didnt regret it then and I dont regret it now". That man is scum, even his half arsed apology yesterday made my blood boil "After 23 years, 400,000 pages of documents and an inquiry, I admit I may have been wrong to print it". He stood by that up until there was nothing else he could do.

Getting back to your original point about buying the Sun again, that is an outrageous idea, and if anything, i would suspect that it might lose readers all over the UK and Ireland, not get them back in the heart of the original storm. That has an air of "Scousers, get over yourselves".....

rgmmg

cloptrop wrote: »

I quoted an article on the INTERNET . Dont make it about me . Attack the post not the poster . I think the hatred of the sun newspaper is a bit unfair . New fans have come to hate it without question because thats what liverpool supporters do . Ill quote the article i read again for you . Lots of other papers were at it . Even the liverpool ones . The source was a top police dude . Why wouldnt they believe him . Even the head of uefa believed him .
They were labelled a gang of drunks that kicked a gate down to get in by the bbc .
http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/media.shtm[/QUOTE]

Attack the post, not the poster? Give me strength!

So "new" Liverpool fans are blindly following what other Liverpool fans think? Don't be so condascending. Looking at any testimony by those that were at the game would rubbish that "theory" - inciteful rather than insightful (although the former is your intention).

Oh, the poor Sun. Kelvin McKenzie okayed that article because it was sensationalist and he wanted to shift a few rags, not because he thought it was the truth. As a journalist, you are supposed to check your facts - "The Truth" suggests this was done. Why did The Mirror desist from publishing it if they had the same source? As to what the Head of UEFA thought, it's not as if his position makes him smarter than anyone else.

AEDIC

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Were the fans herded to the ground? I've been in trains where the police are waiting for you and you get escorted to the ground, but I didn't realise that happened at Hillsborough, similarly, once thigh the turnstyles (or the infamous gate) was it not a case that all fans go though the tunnel to the middle sections?

It's amazing what we put up with in the 80s, those pens were literally that. We were caged in like animals.

Sadly large portions of them were 'controlled' as they made their way to the ground, although liek I said earlier, that was just how it was done then.

And big time about how fans were treated in the 80's, it wasn't really (looking back) a safe environment to take your kids to the match at all.

cloptrop

rgmmg wrote: »

cloptrop wrote: »

I quoted an article on the INTERNET . Dont make it about me . Attack the post not the poster . I think the hatred of the sun newspaper is a bit unfair . New fans have come to hate it without question because thats what liverpool supporters do . Ill quote the article i read again for you . Lots of other papers were at it . Even the liverpool ones . The source was a top police dude . Why wouldnt they believe him . Even the head of uefa believed him .
They were labelled a gang of drunks that kicked a gate down to get in by the bbc .
http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/media.shtm[/QUOTE]

Attack the post, not the poster? Give me strength!

So "new" Liverpool fans are blindly following what other Liverpool fans think? Don't be so condascending. Looking at any testimony by those that were at the game would rubbish that "theory" - inciteful rather than insightful (although the former is your intention).

Oh, the poor Sun. Kelvin McKenzie okayed that article because it was sensationalist and he wanted to shift a few rags, not because he thought it was the truth. As a journalist, you are supposed to check your facts - "The Truth" suggests this was done. Why did The Mirror desist from publishing it if they had the same source? As to what the Head of UEFA thought, it's not as if his position makes him smarter than anyone else.

Maybe the mirror didnt publish it because they knew itd lead to a backlash in sales in liverpool . I dont buy this journalists refusing to write it spin to make the sun look bad and them look good .

amiable

cloptrop wrote: »

I quoted an article on the INTERNET . Dont make it about me . Attack the post not the poster . I think the hatred of the sun newspaper is a bit unfair . New fans have come to hate it without question because thats what liverpool supporters do . Ill quote the article i read again for you . Lots of other papers were at it . Even the liverpool ones . The source was a top police dude . Why wouldnt they believe him . Even the head of uefa believed him .
They were labelled a gang of drunks that kicked a gate down to get in by the bbc .
http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/media.shtm

I'll direct you to the HIP report again.
The sun's source was not a Police officer.
The sun's source was a news agency in Sheffield
I didn't attack you I explained how often you just like to see the worst in Liverpool so if that was an attack what sheltered life you must lead and I congratulate you on it.

It's been explained to you over and over again that the sun and mackenzie for years and years stood by their version of The Truth.
The other media outlets you mentioned apologized and were remorseful pretty soon afterwards.

You are picking snippets of info that seem to suit your cause rather that read the Independent report on the case.

Fratton Fred

AEDIC wrote: »

Sadly large portions of them were 'controlled' as they made their way to the ground, although liek I said earlier, that was just how it was done then.

And big time about how fans were treated in the 80's, it wasn't really (looking back) a safe environment to take your kids to the match at all.

When you look at some of the stadia around now it is amazing the transformation that has taken place.

For the life of me, I can't understand why people want to bring back terracing.

amiable

cloptrop wrote: »

If you took the time to look you would see that is bollocks again.
It's no coincidence you won't or don't reference the HIP report.
You seem only too happy to rattle off rubbish that has been proven to be false.

cloptrop

So the suns source was the news agency where it happened ?
How dare they trust the local news agency .

Lingua Franca

cloptrop wrote: »

I think the hatred of the sun newspaper is a bit unfair

Hahahaha... what, you're serious? Unfair? It's a tabloid rag. Gutter press. That's not opinion, it is fact. Why on earth are you defending it?

Lots of other papers were at it . Even the liverpool ones . The source was a top police dude . Why wouldnt they believe him . Even the head of uefa believed him .

Why the Daily Mirror refused to accept police spin.

The Daily Mirror is another disgusting tabloid rag. They did not believe it. They asked other sources and decided not to publish that story.

The journo who wrote the copy that MacKenzie then edited was horrified. Account from the newsroom:

As MacKenzie's layout was seen by more and more people, a collective shudder ran through the office [but] MacKenzie's dominance was so total there was nobody left in the organisation who could rein him in except Murdoch. [Everyone] seemed paralysed, "looking like rabbits in the headlights", as one hack described them. The error staring them in the face was too glaring. It obviously wasn't a silly mistake; nor was it a simple oversight. Nobody really had any comment on it, they just took one look and went away shaking their heads in wonder at the enormity of it. It was a classic smear.

MacKenzie knew fine well what he was doing. The Sun are to blame for helping the police smear the victims.

I cannot believe that anyone would try to paint the motherloving SUN as a victim in this. Are you a Murdoch, perchance?

Rascasse

amiable wrote: »

I'll direct you to the HIP report again.
The sun's source was not a Police officer.
The sun's source was a news agency in Sheffield

Yes and the news agencies source was the police and the MP. Newspapers rely on local news agencies to provide stories to this very day.

Read the copy, some are unnamed such as "senior police officer", while others are named. The Sun would have no reason to doubt what the agency was giving them.

At the end of the day I'm sure the Sun, as the UK biggest selling newspaper, don't really worry too much about the few thousand copies they loose to The Mirror in Liverpool.

cloptrop

Thank you. You have shown me the sun were way out in front for being scum in all this . But alot of news groups (bbc being the biggest ) were badly at fault .
I feel I have been educated on the subject a bit more .
Thanks and for what its worth Im glad the families are going in the right direction for justice . I hope they get it soon .

Opie

amiable wrote: »

I'll direct you to the HIP report again.
The sun's source was not a Police officer.
The sun's source was a news agency in Sheffield
I didn't attack you I explained how often you just like to see the worst in Liverpool so if that was an attack what sheltered life you must lead and I congratulate you on it.

It's been explained to you over and over again that the sun and mackenzie for years and years stood by their version of The Truth.
The other media outlets you mentioned apologized and were remorseful pretty soon afterwards.

You are picking snippets of info that seem to suit your cause rather that read the Independent report on the case.

This Cloptrop is on a wind-up. The role that scumbag paper had in the Hillsborough disaster can not be highlighted enough. While they did not cause the deaths, the damage they done with their reporting will never be forgotten. The disgusting reporting, stated as fact even when all others retracted what they said, is why no one will buy that toilet roll on Merseyside again, and hopefully in more places too.

Opie

Fratton Fred wrote: »

When you look at some of the stadia around now it is amazing the transformation that has taken place.

For the life of me, I can't understand why people want to bring back terracing.

That's true, I was only a kid when the terraces were there, but i always remember my experiences from back then and cant believe people hark for that.

amiable

Rascasse wrote: »

Yes and the news agencies source was the police and the MP. Newspapers rely on local news agencies to provide stories to this very day.

Read the copy, some are unnamed such as "senior police officer", while others are named. The Sun would have no reason to doubt what the agency was giving them.

At the end of the day I'm sure the Sun, as the UK biggest selling newspaper, don't really worry too much about the few thousand copies they loose to The Mirror in Liverpool.

I've read it already. The Sun got their info from the agency. The sun didn't bother their arse to investigate the source. It was a story they wanted to sell papers about vulnerable people.

Opie

Rascasse wrote: »

Yes and the news agencies source was the police and the MP. Newspapers rely on local news agencies to provide stories to this very day.

Read the copy, some are unnamed such as "senior police officer", while others are named. The Sun would have no reason to doubt what the agency was giving them.

At the end of the day I'm sure the Sun, as the UK biggest selling newspaper, don't really worry too much about the few thousand copies they loose to The Mirror in Liverpool.

I disagree, i reckon the Sun might be worried about a potential drop in their readership from this. Maybe not a catastrophic drop, but after the News of the World fiasco, Murdoch might be given it a slight bit of concern.

Anyway, anyone who defends that paper in all this are just trolling for reactions.

K-9

cloptrop wrote: »

Thank you. You have shown me the sun were way out in front for being scum in all this . But alot of news groups (bbc being the biggest ) were badly at fault .
I feel I have been educated on the subject a bit more .
Thanks and for what its worth Im glad the families are going in the right direction for justice . I hope they get it soon .

The BBC reported on it as events happened so obviously they went with what the police said initially, hardly surprising now.

cloptrop

K-9 wrote: »

cloptrop wrote: »

Thank you. You have shown me the sun were way out in front for being scum in all this . But alot of news groups (bbc being the biggest ) were badly at fault .
I feel I have been educated on the subject a bit more .
Thanks and for what its worth Im glad the families are going in the right direction for justice . I hope they get it soon .

The BBC reported on it as events happened so obviously they went with what the police said initially, hardly surprising now.

The sun went with a news agency who were going off police reports wheres the difference .

K-9

cloptrop wrote: »

The sun went with a news agency who were going off police reports wheres the difference .

Hmmmmm, maybe their refusal to apologise for years, this has already been explained but you aren't taking it on board for some reason.

As for the ban it's up to the families to me and obviously it still matters as Sun journalists were asked to leave the press conference yesterday.

Rascasse

amiable wrote: »

I've read it already. The Sun got their info from the agency. The sun didn't bother their arse to investigate the source. It was a story they wanted to sell papers about vulnerable people.

They wouldn't investigate the source, thats the agencies job. Anyway, the quote from Paul Middup appears to verify the unnamed quotes and its further verified by the MP. The problem is Kelvin McKenzie - not a man known for half measures.

Anyway, its a shame so much of this thread is about a newspaper headline, that has been known to be false for the last 23 years, and not the new revelations.

Opie wrote:

I disagree, i reckon the Sun might be worried about a potential drop in their readership from this. Maybe not a catastrophic drop, but after the News of the World fiasco, Murdoch might be given it a slight bit of concern.

Anyway, anyone who defends that paper in all this are just trolling for reactions.

It won't. Sad to say most people who buy the Sun don't care about a headline in a paper a quarter of a century ago. They do care that their paper has tits in it, however.

I doubt it will even cause a drop of readership in Liverpool where, contrary to popular belief, it is widely available.

Opie

cloptrop wrote: »

The sun went with a news agency who were going off police reports wheres the difference .

You're making yourself look a right goon in all this. The people of Liverpool didnt randomly pick the Sun out of all the meda outlets to boycot. It was boycotted for a reason. Your continued defence of it here is fantastically ignorant. That's why i think you are a wind-up merchant just out to troll this thread. You cant be seriously trying to paint the Sun as another victim of Hillsborough, unfairly targeted for doing no worse than all the other media outlets....

murpho999

cloptrop wrote: »

The sun went with a news agency who were going off police reports wheres the difference .

You're obviously trolling but I'll have a go.

You do realise that The Sun decided to run with the story and put up a huge headline without any verification. No other organisation went with fans urinating on bodies and stealing from corpses

Also, they only retracted it 23 years later after Britain's PM said it was wrong.

Really why are you defending that 'paper' is beyond me.

Always hated it and all tabloids since it's "Gotcha" headline during the Falklands and Hillsborough just confirmed it.

Think you should stop your ridiculous posts now. .