Mary Roche's comments on front of Munster

Max Powers

Headline says (not exact quote) ''hogan will succeed in ruining urbs intacta (Waterford) where Oliver Cromwell failed.''

By this she means the merger of Waterford City and County COuncils will ruin Waterford. Is this just Mary/councillors looking after their numbers, very generous pay and expenses outlined in a previous topic?

I presume merger will mean less councillors.
I presume they will still have the crazy expenses/allowances.
I know there is an issue of the county being more in debt but surely we are a small county/country and 5-10 councillors is plenty.
I would prefer if this was happening to Cork and Galway too, how have Limerick faired. Somehow, i feel the councillors faired fine.

7upfree

Max Powers wrote: »

Headline says (not exact quote) ''hogan will succeed in ruining urbs intacta (Waterford) where Oliver Cromwell failed.''

By this she means the merger of Waterford City and County COuncils will ruin Waterford. Is this just Mary/councillors looking after their numbers, very generous pay and expenses outlined in a previous topic?

I presume merger will mean less councillors.
I presume they will still have the crazy expenses/allowances.
I know there is an issue of the county being more in debt but surely we are a small county/country and 5-10 councillors is plenty.
I would prefer if this was happening to Cork and Galway too, how have Limerick faired. Somehow, i feel the councillors faired fine.

Maybe. But the devil is in the detail.

The merged Council should be in Waterford City. Mr. Hogan is also, incredibly, talking about removing Waterford's City status - which is far more serious than ANY council shakeup.

Jason Todd

7upfree wrote: »

Maybe. But the devil is in the detail.

The merged Council should be in Waterford City. Mr. Hogan is also, incredibly, talking about removing Waterford's City status - which is far more serious than ANY council shakeup.

Any chance of a link to that story? :eek:

fricatus

7upfree wrote: »

Mr. Hogan is also, incredibly, talking about removing Waterford's City status - which is far more serious than ANY council shakeup.

Jason Todd wrote: »

Any chance of a link to that story? :eek:

Well, if we try to think about it logically, where does a city get its status? From the law of the land.

What law of the land does Waterford derive its status from? The 2001 Local Government Act which sets out that it has a City Council.

If changes are made and it then has only a County Council (like Longford, say), then does it have the status of a city?

Your guess is as good as mine!

fricatus

Max Powers wrote: »

Headline says (not exact quote) ''hogan will succeed in ruining urbs intacta (Waterford) where Oliver Cromwell failed.''

By this she means the merger of Waterford City and County COuncils will ruin Waterford. Is this just Mary/councillors looking after their numbers, very generous pay and expenses outlined in a previous topic?

Well you can ask that question, and say that "she would say that, wouldn't she", and you could be right.

However Cllr Roche has a long track record of speaking out on issues like this, so her comments don't surprise me, whatever the motivation.

Max Powers wrote: »

I presume merger will mean less councillors.

AFAIK, yes.

Max Powers wrote: »

I presume they will still have the crazy expenses/allowances.

These are set on a national basis, aren't they? So yes would be the answer presumably,

Max Powers wrote: »

I know there is an issue of the county being more in debt but surely we are a small county/country and 5-10 councillors is plenty.

That's certainly arguable, but why are only Waterford and Limerick being targeted? Surely all our cities should have stand-alone authorities? Our cities are always being touted as the drivers of our economy (well Dublin is always touted as the engine of the Irish economy, but surely Waterford is a smaller engine of the south-eastern economy).

Why not merge Sligo and Leitrim county councils, Cavan and Monaghan, or Longford and Roscommon for example, if cost savings are the objective? These are mostly rural authorities and are a better fit with one another.

Max Powers wrote: »

I would prefer if this was happening to Cork and Galway too, how have Limerick faired. Somehow, i feel the councillors faired fine.

I really think it's odd that it's not happening to Galway. I mean, in size terms, Galway sits between Limerick and Waterford, so why is it not also having its councils merged? I can see no other reason than favouritism.

I made a submission on this, which I outlined in a post on another thread. When you think about it logically, this change makes no sense on its own, which is why I'm suspicious about the motives behind it.

Bards

Call me cynical but I Reckon the real motive behind all this is to weaken Waterford while at the same time strengthen Kilkenny with a view to KK replacing waterford as the regional Capital.

Just look what Howlin did the Waterford CIty & County VEC when he merged them with Wexford. Did the new enlarged authority go to the regional capital (Makes the most sense)

No it went to a COunty Town (Wexford) again to make Waterford weaker.

FG & Lab have form on this. Rememebr when they moved the Director of the IDA for the South East out of Waterford and let the COrk Office handle the whole South and South East.

fricatus

Bards wrote: »

Call me cynical but I Reckon the real motive behind all this is to weaken Waterford while at the same time strengthen Kilkenny with a view to KK replacing waterford as the regional Capital.

Well you know, Occam's Razor and all that... this is a simple (if somewhat paranoid) explanation for what's happening. It doesn't make sense if this isn't the agenda, so FG can hardly blame us for filling in the gaps with conspiracy theories...

Max Powers

My thinking on it is I odnt trust any politican or councillor so i dont trust FULLY what Mary Roche or Phil Hogan is up to. The fact that this is being confined to Waterford and Limerick cities (Tipp county also) is the biggest fear, demote them 2 so cork, dublin, galway can get an even bigger share of the pie. Recent IDA reports prove this with 80% of FDI going there (i know dublin skews these figures a bit due to major population but it is what it is).

waterford

When the city and the county councils are joined together by Hogan
Will Mary cut down on her expenses too and rejoin FF :rolleyes:

fricatus

waterford wrote: »

When the city and the county councils are joined together by Hogan
Will Mary cut down on her expenses too and rejoin FF :rolleyes:

Jesus, there are some sheep on this forum! As soon as councillors are mentioned, the first thing anyone thinks of is expenses, and petty stuff like what party someone may have been a part of in the past.

The people who want to abolish Waterford City Council care not a toss about the past, present or future of this city. Whatever their reasons for stripping this city of an independent administration, they're being hidden behind a convenient smokescreen of cost cutting, and of course who is against cost-cutting in the current economic climate?

But FFS, I would urge people to think for themselves on this one and not just go with knee-jerk reactions against councillors' expenses and junkets, which I agree are real issues. You should be asking the politicians why they're picking only on our area of the country, and not engaging in a root-and-branch reform.

Abolishing Waterford City Council will probably save some money, and that will be used as the justification. However councillors up and down the country will continue as before. Think about it: Leitrim and Longford both have smaller populations than Waterford city. Why then will they continue to have independent councils, with all the junkets and cost associated with them? Why not merge them with say Sligo and Roscommon, to save costs?

Waterford is the most important city in the south-east, yet after this it seems it won't even have a borough council, which Wexford, Clonmel and Kilkenny will have. It won't even have a town council, like Dungarvan and Tramore. The proposal is fcuking nuts, excuse my French, and it has not been debated in any sort of democratic way. Phil Hogan is doing this ar$e-about-face, and he doesn't even seem to think it necessary to explain what he's doing, other than hiding behind the BS smokescreen of "cost savings"

Cabaal

Bards wrote: »

Call me cynical but I Reckon the real motive behind all this is to weaken Waterford while at the same time strengthen Kilkenny with a view to KK replacing waterford as the regional Capital.

Paranoid much?
Next you are going to suggest that he'll try to dig a ditch around Waterford so it can set it afloat from the rest of Ireland into the Irish sea.

Black Suir

Bards wrote: »

FG & Lab have form on this. Rememebr when they moved the Director of the IDA for the South East out of Waterford and let the COrk Office handle the whole South and South East.

These two were never any good while in Government. Fianna Fail in the last few years, were also guilty of mistakes or having friends in high places, but they had nothing on both Fine Gael and Labour. Look back through the pages of history and see all that they have done or not done. However, I guess we will have them for a while yet. I dont think either FF or SF if they are honest will want to come in and try and put right all that this shower of ***** are at. To see how good they are all we have to do is to look at both Ciara Conway and Paudie Coffey. Have they done anything for Waterford since they were elected other that to welcome something that some minister said, or to get on TV3 or stand near a mic.

By the way, what ever happened to Enda's five point plan, and his 100 Day plan. In the run up to the last general election, it was like a Rubber Bandits song every time he opened his mouth, "I have a five point plan".

Mugser

Would that mean that the Waterford City and County sections on here would have to be merged too?
:pac::pac:

Jason Todd

Mugser wrote: »

Would that mean that the Waterford City and County sections on here would have to be merged too?
:pac::pac:

Oh jaysus, don't start! :pac:

thomasm

From Mary Roches blog
http://cllrmaryroche.blogspot.ie/2012/09/proposing-speech-for-motion-that.html?m=1

BlaasForRafa

Cabaal wrote: »

Paranoid much?
Next you are going to suggest that he'll try to dig a ditch around Waterford so it can set it afloat from the rest of Ireland into the Irish sea.

He's not paranoid at all and your facetious comment doesn't really add much to the discussion.

Hogan may or may not be doing this (in part) to weaken Waterford but Kilkenny politicians do have form for this sort of thing, they kept the road to Waterford in South KK deliberately brutal for decades so as to lessen investment in Waterford, they got the headquarters of the south eastern health board put in KK despite waterford being the regional capital and having the regional hospital so he's got a right to suspect Hogan may be up to shenanigans.

charlemont

Waterford's councils should be stripped of the fat (all councils should) but merging them is just badly thought out, looking at a map of the county and city clearly shows why it won't work, It will become an urban/rural competition between the councillors. The cities should never be merged with the counties (will be happening to Limerick too) Waterford* alongside Galway are the only cities to even have proper boundaries around them as it is.

I do think though lots of the smaller town councils should be stripped, abolished, or merged with their respective county councils.


*obviously Ferrybank should be in the city boundary but in fairness its in another county too.

Sully

This thread is full of complete paranoia. It deserves to be in the Conspiracy Forum tbh.

Sully

Black Suir wrote: »

These two were never any good while in Government. Fianna Fail in the last few years, were also guilty of mistakes or having friends in high places, but they had nothing on both Fine Gael and Labour. Look back through the pages of history and see all that they have done or not done. However, I guess we will have them for a while yet. I dont think either FF or SF if they are honest will want to come in and try and put right all that this shower of ***** are at. To see how good they are all we have to do is to look at both Ciara Conway and Paudie Coffey. Have they done anything for Waterford since they were elected other that to welcome something that some minister said, or to get on TV3 or stand near a mic.

By the way, what ever happened to Enda's five point plan, and his 100 Day plan. In the run up to the last general election, it was like a Rubber Bandits song every time he opened his mouth, "I have a five point plan".

A few things here.

1) In general, FG & Lab formed a government to get our countries finances back in track following a financial cockup by Fianna Fail. They were in government, what, 7 times since 1937 with it all being Fianna Fail outside of those times. We tend to kick Fianna Fail out when times are bad and get FG/Lab to fix it. Then we kick them out for being so tough on us and welcome Fianna Fail back with open arms. Sinn Fein have proven by their policy implementation in the North that they are just misleading the people. They campaign against a number of government policies in the Republic while they happily implement them in the North. Likewise, they claim a considerable amount of expenses to balance their "We only take the Industrial Wage Home, as we are representing the Working Class" and have had their own very serious expenses scandal in the North and here in the South. Sinn Fein are no more to be trusted as are Fianna Fail, leaving us no opposition (bar the real looney left, which have been caught out numerous times on their lies).

2) The current system does not give much room for TDs without a Ministerial position to do anything of any substance. What exactly has Halligan done for Waterford? Or in the Senate, despite continuously being rejected by the people, SFs Cullinane? Its very rare TDs that are just back benchers can do anything bar represent Waterford and lobby for Waterford. Most of the stuff each and every TD does is behind the scenes.

3) The Fine Gael "Five Point Plan" was the main "pitch" that the party had for a majority government (and only in the event of a majority government, like many of its commitments). Each party in Ireland had their "pitch". Sinn Fein copied the "five point plan" approach after the election. Obama had his pitch in his last election which was constantly said whenever he spoke - "Yes We Can".

FG won them the most seats in the house.

In regards to the other conspiracies. We are always saying that every City is given more attention than Ireland. Yet, Limerick City is bigger than Waterford. I very much doubt that Hogan would remove two cities, especially one of our larger ones, without serious opposition by the people (opposition TDs, for example) or the Ministers in that constituency.

In regards to Waterford alone, Hogan has already stated we wont be losing our City Status.

I assure Senator David Cullinane that the gateway of Waterford will not be diluted with or without Ferrybank. It will be protected and strengthened and its city status will be maintained

Source: http://debates.oireachtas.ie/seanad/2012/02/01/00007.asp#N126

Now I know what you are going to say: Its all a lie. Minister Hogan will remove our title and that will be that, because, after all - the law states we must have a City Council. For this part, I have made a few inquiries and once I get an answer ill be sure to post it.

fricatus

Sully wrote: »

This thread is full of complete paranoia. It deserves to be in the Conspiracy Forum tbh.

Paranoia thrives where there is an information vacuum Sully, and there is bugger-all information being put out about this, other than it's a done deal, and that Waterford and Limerick councils are being merged.

Nobody, AFAIK, has answered any of the legitimate questions, many of which I put in my submission to the IPA, such as the following:

- What exactly will be done to make sure that the city has an independent voice? Kilkenny, Clonmel and Wexford will all still have Borough Councils to represent the urban area. Tramore and Dungarvan will have Town Councils. What will Waterford city have?

- Why are Waterford and Limerick singled out? Why not also Cork and Galway? Nobody has answered this, and I remain very paranoid in the absence of a satisfactory answer!

- Has consideration not been given to merging largely rural authorities (which would fit better together? Sligo/Leitrim, Longford/Roscommon, Cavan/Monaghan all come to mind. Wouldn't this make more sense than stripping our 3rd and 5th cities of their dedicated administrations?

These are all sensible, logical questions, but they haven't been answered. There is no debate at all here with the people who are pushing this through, except empty words that our status will be "protected". Didn't Enda say before the election that Roscommon A&E would be "protected"? I wouldn't be putting too much trust in any politician's assurances, in fairness!

Sully

I'm glad to see that you appear to have backed down from the conspiracy that Waterfords City status will be removed, but I have gone one step further and researched the whole City fiasco once and for all. You selectively quoted one part of the legislation, which has to be changed to accommodate mergers. Likewise, when people debate about the status of Kilkenny people selectively quote when there are other sections within that explain its position and there are clarifications from the government of the time available online.

In order for Waterford and Limerick to lose their City Status in Legislation the Minister would have to amend Part 2 of Schedule 5 of the Local Government Act 2001 and delete Waterford and Limerick as Cities; very doubtful that would happen as that would only leave Ireland with 3 cities. Its much more likely with the merger that the Minister would delete Waterford and Limerick County Councils from Part 1 of Schedule 5 of the same Act. There's nothing in the legislation to State that in order to have City status there must be a City Council. Waterford has a City Charter which enshrines its City Status.

There has been debate on this proposal, but you would need to look beyond your local newspaper or discussion board to see it. Its still work in progress and there is a lot more to it than just slapping the two councils together and leaving it at that. You are of course welcome to email your local TD or directly to the Ministers office with your concerns, as is your democratic entitlement. There has been reports before FG & Lab came into office, commissioned by the last government, about cost saving measures which included selecting certain areas for mergers. Minister Hogan had no hand in that report and even criticised it.

Re: Enda & the hospital. Yes, but it appears that Kenny made the promise without knowing the full facts which tends to be a problem when in opposition on any subject, but I hate the way he and others made promises. HIQA report stated otherwise about Roscommon Hospital which gave the government no choice but to shut it down for patient safety. Wasn't a cost saving measure and was nothing to do with local politics. Roscommon is irrelevant to Waterford.

average_runner

Bards wrote: »

Call me cynical but I Reckon the real motive behind all this is to weaken Waterford while at the same time strengthen Kilkenny with a view to KK replacing waterford as the regional Capital.

Just look what Howlin did the Waterford CIty & County VEC when he merged them with Wexford. Did the new enlarged authority go to the regional capital (Makes the most sense)

No it went to a COunty Town (Wexford) again to make Waterford weaker.

FG & Lab have form on this. Rememebr when they moved the Director of the IDA for the South East out of Waterford and let the COrk Office handle the whole South and South East.

The reason it went to Wexford is because its a bigger county and has a higher population as a county

Monty Burnz

Black Suir wrote: »

These two were never any good while in Government.

You might want to look into who was in power when the foundation for the 90s boom was laid. :rolleyes:

Of course you are correct, Fianna Failure is the only party that can govern well.

Sully

A lot of people described FG/Lab as a stricter government who took firm hold of the purse strings to keep a proper spending balance while FF were the party that offered everything, gave everything (and looked after themselves also!) and screwed the economy because they decided to scrap the tight hold on the purse approach. It was FG/Lab that got our country back on its feet each time, but were never given a chance to forward govern.

As regards to Wexford and the VEC - probably a Minister looking after his own backyard but I don't see a problem with resources being shared out and not just kept to the big cities.

Bards

Sully wrote: »

As regards to Wexford and the VEC - probably a Minister looking after his own backyard but I don't see a problem with resources being shared out and not just kept to the big cities.

I have a big issue with this.

Name just one Divisional HQ of a govt Department. that has its HQ in the Regional Capital I.E Waterford CIty.

HSE - Kilkenny
Tax Office - Wexford (Moved from Waterford)
VEC - Wexford (Moved from Waterford)

and the list goes on and on and on.

Evertytime there is a change in Govt. Some Minister or other rapes Waterford for their own ends

MOC88

Bards wrote: »

I have a big issue with this.

Name just one Divisional HQ of a govt Department. that has its HQ in the Regional Capital I.E Waterford CIty.

HSE - Kilkenny
Tax Office - Wexford (Moved from Waterford)
VEC - Wexford (Moved from Waterford)

and the list goes on and on and on.

Evertytime there is a change in Govt. Some Minister or other rapes Waterford for their own ends

Hold on for the party propoganda machine- they really ignore all the facts in tehir face and make excuse after excuse after their party-

Have to agree with what you have said - it is a seriously worrying trend- nobody has ever given a sh#te about Waterford- God help us if Cullen hadn't ben in last time- I might have hated FF but without him we wouldn't have benefited from a cent from the boom --- which we barely did tbh

Hopefully Waterford people start adopting a siege mentality and realise we have to look after ourselves before we start concerning ourselvers with anything outside of our City and County.

If the councils are split we'll never get them back and we don't have a single person who has any influence and none fo them with any interset in risking their paerty place for any bit of progress for Waterford.

I wouldn't trust one of those snakes in Governement and I definitely wouldn't apply logic to them. They've shown that they're riding out the trouble in high paid jobs and will take the credit after a decade and half of suffering from everyone else. What have they done a 12 year old wouldn't. I actually think a 12 year old could run the country better- or at least fairer

comeraghs

Here Here Moc88

wellboy76

I am reading a lot on Facebook from Gary Wyse and Mary Roche about the kilkenny minister for septic tanks wanting to downgrade Waterfords City status to Town status. How much truth is in this or is it scaremongering. Hogan wouldn't be this stupid too would he?

JenniFurr

Mary Roche wasn't saying they are literally downgrading us. She's referring to a document called "Our Cities: Drivers of National Competitiveness" by The National Competitiveness Council. Waterford was the only city not mentioned... at all. I think she's just implying that they basically see us as a town and not a city.

Jason Todd

Ignoring our City status would nearly be as bad as downgrading us from an outside investment perspective particularly. That Phil Hogan is one stupid man anyway, nothing would surprise me about him.

Sully

Merging the two Mary Roche threads together

On a personal, non-moderator level: Scaremongering News by Mary Roche.