Mary Roche's comments on front of Munster

Black Suir

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

I listened to the podcasts from Thursday and Friday morning and here is my two cents worth. I suspect that this is an intentional leak that will make the merger palatable if the council is located in Waterford City by making us think we dodged a bullet.That is the best case scenario here. The worst case is that it is true and I could not say with any confidence that this is not the case.

On Varadker; All he done was expressed his own opinion. He didn’t say that it was or wasn’t going to happen. When pressed on whether or not Waterford would lose its mayoralty office he could not say.Again he expressed only what he thought. So basically he said nothing to shed any light on the issue.

There was a Labour councillor from Lismore IIRC on Thursdays program who seemed to justify Dungarvan being chosen as the location because there was more people in the county than city and that Dungarvan was more geographically central in the county. Frustratingly this seemed to go over Billy McCarthys head.The fact is in the merged entity 90% of the population of Waterford City and County would live closer to the City than Dungarvan.

John Halligan depite getting muddled and saying Dungarvan a couple of times when he clearly meant Waterford. E,g. the river flows through Dungarvan and the airport is closer to Dungarvan gave a good explanation as to why locating the council in the city is common sense.

Billy McCarthy seemed to be only aware of some of the basic historical context i.e Waterford City having local administration since 914 AD. What IMO should have been discussed as well was the fact that the only reason there is a separate council for the City and County in the first place was to placate vested interests specifically landed gentry in the first half of the 19th century in the county. Waterford is unique in that all the other cities in Ireland are also the capitals of their respective counties. So what is at risk here is that Waterford will undergo the apparent downgrading of local government like Limerick. It will also experience the further denigration of having a 1000 years of historic local administration being shifted to Dungarvan which has been the county seat for just over a century.

Heard him say this a few times as well on Thursday morning on WLR. It clearly shows how clever a man that we have sent to Leinster House to represent us.

fricatus

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

There was a Labour councillor from Lismore IIRC on Thursdays program who seemed to justify Dungarvan being chosen as the location because there was more people in the county than city and that Dungarvan was more geographically central in the county. Frustratingly this seemed to go over Billy McCarthys head.The fact is in the merged entity 90% of the population of Waterford City and County would live closer to the City than Dungarvan.

Well now I got out my map and my Census 2006 PDF, and I can tell you that the population of the county east of Kilmacthomas was 74,266, or 68.8% of the county total, despite being only a quarter of the county's total land area. I might do the 2011 Census later if I have time.

Sure, there are more people in the county, but one third of the "county" (i.e. non-city) population lives in the area immediately south and east of the city. Whatever such councillors may say, just because Tramore, Dunmore and Passage are "in the county", it does not follow that Dungarvan is more convenient than the city for these people.

Still though, this is just divide-and-conquer stuff. As someone said earlier, the hope is that we'll all breathe a sigh of relief when the merged entity has its HQ in the city.

A much better solution would be to have an East Waterford/South Kilkenny authority based in the city and run West Waterford from Dungarvan. Of course that would make sense, and also go agin' the GAA model of running the country, so it will never happen. However it would be the most sensible thing to do if it was replicated across the country as part of a well-thought-out plan, something we're not going to get from Cute Oul' Phil. :mad:

fuzzy dunlop

fricatus wrote: »

A much better solution would be to have an East Waterford/South Kilkenny authority based in the city and run West Waterford from Dungarvan. Of course that would make sense, and also go agin' the GAA model of running the country, so it will never happen. However it would be the most sensible thing to do if it was replicated across the country as part of a well-thought-out plan, something we're not going to get from Cute Oul' Phil. :mad:

Yes there is a word for this type of thing.What was it again?....Oh Yeah!.....Reform!

MOC88

Definition of 'Vulture Capitalist'
1. A slang word for a venture capitalist who deprives an inventor of control over their own innovations and most of the money they should have made from the invention


Definition of 'Asset Stripping'
The process of buying an undervalued company with the intent to sell off its assets for a profit. The individual assets of the company, such as its equipment and property, may be more valuable than the company as a whole due to such factors as poor management or poor economic conditions.

seems similar enought o whats happening - now enjoy your saturday night

sparkling sea

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Lot of businesses plying their trade here for a ghost town?

"Hyperbole" and head in the sand attitude you seem to possess, allows for little change and and unhelpful progress in Waterford City.

fuzzy dunlop

sparkling sea wrote: »

"Hyperbole" and head in the sand attitude you seem to possess, allows for little change and and unhelpful progress in Waterford City.

You are talking complete nonsense.You have described the city as a "Ghost Town" This would imply the city centre would be completely empty of trade and businesses.This is far from the case and you can see from my posts here and on other threads that I have clearly made the arguements for the need for a strong city centre with retail being at the centre of its strength. You on the other hand have thrown around terms like "Ghost Town" willy nilly and made spurious comparisons with Cork as if it were some sort of "Paris of the North" when in fact a huge portion of Cork City centre actually resembles a mission district in a US city. The slow decline you have described seems to be a yearning for a time when two way traffic could drive from the clock tower to the car stand and vice versa or when John Roberts square was a patchwork of cobble, tarmac and gravel as was Cathedral square.Or when City Square and Peter steet had nothing but a car park.Instead of writing the city off why not try and make some suggestion that contributes something other than knocking?

Sully

One of our local TDs released a statement on the merger last night. Paudie Coffey TD (Fine Gael, if you don't know )

Before I quote the statement, people here might find a campaign ongoing by a Boardsie and local campaigner from Up The Deise interesting. It ties into the merger mainly but I suppose they have tried to add balance by fighting for Waterford in general. The campaign is called Waterford Gives a Shirt and there is a thread on it here

Anyway, see below the response from the first of our governments TDs here in the Deise.

Waterford City and County Councils

To clarify my position on this issue please read the following:-

I expect that there will be an announcement made within next week or so in respect of a radical overhaul of local government in Ireland. This will have an obvious impact on local government in Waterford and how it operates. There has been much talk in recent weeks of the possible implications for Waterford, and I have been asked what my position on the matter is.

I want to put on record the clear and strong representations that I have made directly to Minister Hogan and his officials in the Department of the Environment about any possible impact on Waterford as a result of this overall local government reform package.

There are currently 65 Councillors in Waterford, A City Council, A County Council, three Town Councils, five Mayors and five Deputy Mayors. This government before the last general election promised reform in local government and this is being delivered, but it must be done in a way that does not diminish a City like Waterford.

I hope the points I make below clarifies my position in this respect. I have been engaged with Minister Hogan (along with ther Waterford Public representatives) and his officials in a consistent dialogue and I am very confident that the Strong historical and cultural traditions of Waterford City and that the traditional office of Mayor will be preserved in any reform proposed for Waterford Local Authorities. This in fact was a clear term of reference for the independent working group requested to compile a report on an amalgamation in Waterford.

I wish also to point out the fact that Opposition parties and independents who have suddenly become excercised about this issue and are now opposing it had ample opportunity to bring Minister Hogan and his officials before the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Environment over the past few months to question them on their intentions regarding Local Government Reform with specific attention to Waterford.

This is an opportunity they never exploited or requested and therefore failed in what I believe is a neglect of their duties as public representatives in opposition -

Yours sincerely,

Paudie CoffeyTD



I wish to again reiterate my following viewpoints and my position on any possible amalgamation of Waterford Local Authorities:-

1. That Waterford’s historic City Status be protected in any amalgamation that may be proposed

2. That Waterford City’s Status as the Gateway City for the region not be diminished in any way, rather it should be enhanced to stimulate growth and development in the City and Region

3. That there be only one Mayor in any new configuration and that office should be based in the new administration’s HQ in Waterford City

4. That any reformed electoral areas have their own individual operational committees, consisting of elected representatives and senior council staff with the Chairman elected by the public representatives

5. That administration and services are retained in the existing council offices in Dungarvan to service Mid and West County Waterford.

6. Where reform might mean a reduced number of elected representatives I believe that the role and powers of the elected councillors should be enhanced in any new configuration.

Whilst I recognise the need for new efficiencies and public service delivery, I understand that cost savings and a more accountable, efficient local government system is required, with a more cohesive and co-ordinated voice for the Citizens of Waterford.

Paudie Coffey TD

Trick of the Tail

Amazingly, I find myself in agreement, largely!

I knew we were over-administered, but 65 councillors for 110,000 people! Crazy.



A.

fricatus

alinton wrote: »

I knew we were over-administered, but 65 councillors for 110,000 people! Crazy.

That's fair enough, but only 15 of those are in the city, so why are they targeting the city council for abolition?

Once again, this measure seems to be targeting Waterford and Limerick, without affecting anywhere else. Why not merge the councils in Galway for instance? Why not merge Cavan with Monaghan, Sligo with Leitrim, Carlow with Kilkenny?

Sully

Both City and County are being merged to bring an effective body that covers both. Not being abolished and if the City retains everything its more the County that is being cut from. Cutting down on waste, making it more efficient and making savings. Savings need to be made, its not a choice.

Limerick was done. Tipperary was done. Waterford looks set to be next. Who says there wont be any more mergers? I don't think it was ruled out?

Professey Chin

Sully wrote: »

Both City and County are being merged to bring an effective body that covers both. Not being abolished and if the City retains everything its more the County that is being cut from. Cutting down on waste, making it more efficient and making savings. Savings need to be made, its not a choice.

Limerick was done. Tipperary was done. Waterford looks set to be next. Who says there wont be any more mergers? I don't think it was ruled out?

And with the counties general shape and population centers being at opposite ends none of this will happen. Like I already said it'll be like the County Board we have which is nothing but East vs West bolloxology (as proven by having 2 sh1t grounds instead of being able to focus on 1). If you honestly believe it wont end up like this then youre borderline delusional.

mecco

The Great Chinholio wrote: »

And with the counties general shape and population centers being at opposite ends none of this will happen. Like I already said it'll be like the County Board we have which is nothing but East vs West bolloxology (as proven by having 2 sh1t grounds instead of being able to focus on 1). If you honestly believe it wont end up like this then youre borderline delusional.

nkay1985

I have to say I'm incredulous that this is still going ahead. I find it even more amazing that someone from Waterford will so easily accept the party line, even when its obvious that this can only serve to diminish Waterford's position nationally. The carry-on of this government since they came into power really sickens me. They sold the idea of a new type of politics but we still have the same old sh1te with strokes being pulled here and there. I don't know about everyone else but I thought I couldn't be more disillusioned with politics than I ws under the last shower. Well congratulations Mr. Hogan et al, you've managed to make it happen!

Sully

nkay1985 wrote: »

I have to say I'm incredulous that this is still going ahead. I find it even more amazing that someone from Waterford will so easily accept the party line, even when its obvious that this can only serve to diminish Waterford's position nationally. The carry-on of this government since they came into power really sickens me. They sold the idea of a new type of politics but we still have the same old sh1te with strokes being pulled here and there. I don't know about everyone else but I thought I couldn't be more disillusioned with politics than I ws under the last shower. Well congratulations Mr. Hogan et al, you've managed to make it happen!

That person being me. You could have just mentioned my name. There is no real objection to the mergers, it appears most of our local reps are in favour (I say most but I have heard nawt from Senator Cullinane on the issue) with concern about the location of the office. The City Status isn't really being questioned because nobody believes its at risk.

So its not me taking a 'party line'. I'm looking at this in agreement (as most people seem to be) of a merger and not buying into the hype that we will loose our City Status. I have already publicly - on radio and on here - stated I would not be in favour of having it in Dungarvan nor would I be in favour of our City Title (both in name and in power) be removed. My local Fine Gael TD has stated the same.

There is no 'party line' because there is nothing stated by the party about the merger, bar the odd reference here and there and Paudie stating his position. His position is what I have been saying all along and its that position that is in line with the Shirt campaign and peoples fears expressed here. Both government and opposition TDs in Waterford are in favour of the merger.

nkay1985

But how is anyone in favour of even the merger? What do we have to gain from it? If it's "for the greater good" why is it only Waterford and Limerick. Why is the holy grail of Galway exempt? I've yet to see a justification for it.

While it's never going to be an outright loss of city status, it's a further blow to Waterford. It's a gradual erosion of the things that make us a city (city council, VEC and IDA being located here) coupled with not getting anything that advances our position (university status for WIT) as a city. Bit by little bit we're becoming less significant. I just don't understand how anyone who's proud to be from Waterford could be ambivalent about the whole thing, I genuinely don't.

O Riain

Sully wrote: »

That person being me. You could have just mentioned my name. There is no real objection to the mergers, it appears most of our local reps are in favour (I say most but I have heard nawt from Senator Cullinane on the issue) with concern about the location of the office. The City Status isn't really being questioned because nobody believes its at risk.

So its not me taking a 'party line'. I'm looking at this in agreement (as most people seem to be) of a merger and not buying into the hype that we will loose our City Status. I have already publicly - on radio and on here - stated I would not be in favour of having it in Dungarvan nor would I be in favour of our City Title (both in name and in power) be removed. My local Fine Gael TD has stated the same.

There is no 'party line' because there is nothing stated by the party about the merger, bar the odd reference here and there and Paudie stating his position. His position is what I have been saying all along and its that position that is in line with the Shirt campaign and peoples fears expressed here. Both government and opposition TDs in Waterford are in favour of the merger.

Why is not happening to Galway? Or Cork? Or anywhere else besides Limerick and Waterford? I think I saw you mention the fact that "how do we know there are not other mergers on the table" before, the fact is we dont and neither do you. If this happens to Waterford and no where else, which at this stage in our history is extremely likely, it is as other people have stated another example of the slow and extremely painful diminishing of Waterford City. If they did a full sweep across the whole board I would be 110% behind this but as it stands, as a cautious Waterford man who see's how we have been mistreated, mishandled and neglected over the years I just simply cannot accept it.

road_high

Apparently Galway et al are to merge as well now; http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/government-to-announce-further-local-cuts-570272.html

I'm personally all in favour. Take the south east. Why not merge the 5 or 6 counties into some kind of Regional Authority?

fricatus

mfitzy wrote: »

Apparently Galway et al are to merge as well now; http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/government-to-announce-further-local-cuts-570272.html

I'm personally all in favour. Take the south east. Why not merge the 5 or 6 counties into some kind of Regional Authority?

Why can't they just announce the whole lot in one go? Here we've been, wondering why it's just Waterford and Limerick, when the Galway councils are now apparently to merge. If the whole plan had been sketched out from the beginning, we'd have had less reason to be paranoid. The Galway question was always the big one for me - why them and not us? :mad:

Max Powers

maybe its people highlighting the inequality that they decided to merge Galway too, proper order. Cork will play the largest county, large population card and possibly get away with it. At this stage my thoughts on merger are:
- good riddance to a lot of those councillors, cut the numbers in half at least.
- merge more councils across the country
- obviously merger in Waterford will be Waterford city HQ, any other talk is bull.

Psychedelic

More on council mergers, looks like Galway City & Co. Councils will also be merged. This is from a Report of the Local Government Efficiency Review Group Executive Summary (see pg.8). Looks like we were jumping the gun a bit as this was done in 2010 so these mergers were always on the cards.

http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/FileDownLoad,23534,en.pdf

Joint Administrative Areas
The Group recommends that as soon as may be the following county and city council areas be paired as ‘joint administrative areas’ to facilitate greater economies of scale in the provision of local services:

• Carlow and Kilkenny;
• Cavan and Monaghan;
• Galway City and County;
• Laois and Offaly;
• Leitrim and Sligo;
• Longford and Westmeath;
• Mayo and Roscommon;
• North Tipperary and South Tipperary;
• Waterford City and County.

And all the town councils are being scrapped. So it's not a case of Hogan trying to downgrade Waterford City to a town - paranoia be gone!

Jason Todd

mfitzy wrote: »

Apparently Galway et al are to merge as well now; http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/government-to-announce-further-local-cuts-570272.html

I'm personally all in favour. Take the south east. Why not merge the 5 or 6 counties into some kind of Regional Authority?

Like for example a South East Regional Authority? Yeaaaah! :D

http://www.sera.ie/

Only joking!

road_high

Jason Todd wrote: »

Like for example a South East Regional Authority? Yeaaaah! :D

http://www.sera.ie/

Only joking!

No something with actual powers not a talk shop! Why do we need depts replicating eachother. Take KK and Carlow, 20 mins down the road you have a different HR, Planning, Finance dept replicated with all the expense that entails. The system is nuts and is ripe for reform. Merge the damn lot I say
And targeted redundancies...not re-deployment where nothing changes.

road_high

Psychedelic wrote: »

More on council mergers, looks like Galway City & Co. Councils will also be merged. This is from a Report of the Local Government Efficiency Review Group Executive Summary (see pg.8). Looks like we were jumping the gun a bit as this was done in 2010 so these mergers were always on the cards.

http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/FileDownLoad,23534,en.pdf



And all the town councils are being scrapped. So it's not a case of Hogan trying to downgrade Waterford City to a town - paranoia be gone!

Doen't even go far enough imo...why not merge Wexford with Wicklow? And merge them with CW/KK while you're at it. Clare, Kerry, Mayo not being merged...why?
County Managers are paid mad money.
Glad to see the Town Councils go. Presumably Borough Councils will be merged as well.

Psychedelic

mfitzy wrote: »

Doen't even go far enough imo...why not merge Wexford with Wicklow? And merge them with CW/KK while you're at it. Clare, Kerry, Mayo not being merged...why?

Maybe they will merge those councils too. The report I linked to has a few merger recommendations, but that doesn't mean other councils won't be merged too.

jad2007

About two weeks ago this whole campaign against the merger started. Although submissions were closed and the final report hadnt been published political scaremongering started.

Personally im all for the merger ( but against Council moving to Dungarvan).

People on here ask why the drip feed. Instead of waiting for the report everyone jumped on the bandwagon. Mary Roche on her blog today asked why Waterford was being singled out against Galway. Now apparently it isnt. If reports are correct all 75 town councils are going. This spoils the anti- Waterford conspiracy.

Personally I think people were encouraged to get up in arms about a emotive issue ( Saving our city status). Now it looks like the same is happening to Galway. Considering the political clout in the West if it happens in Galway it says a lot.

Now media reports have been wrong before, so what I am doing is saving my pitchfork and placards for after the report is released.

PS I love the way people are saying "Urbs Intacta" when we were given that motto because we were loyal to a English king.

Sully

nkay1985 wrote: »

But how is anyone in favour of even the merger? What do we have to gain from it? If it's "for the greater good" why is it only Waterford and Limerick. Why is the holy grail of Galway exempt? I've yet to see a justification for it.

While it's never going to be an outright loss of city status, it's a further blow to Waterford. It's a gradual erosion of the things that make us a city (city council, VEC and IDA being located here) coupled with not getting anything that advances our position (university status for WIT) as a city. Bit by little bit we're becoming less significant. I just don't understand how anyone who's proud to be from Waterford could be ambivalent about the whole thing, I genuinely don't.

In terms of Galway, they are not exempt. I don't know for certain, but I was always of the understanding the mergers were a 'Work In Progress' and 'One Step at a Time'. It started with Tipp, then onto Limerick, and now Waterford. Plus since you posted last night, others have given a few different sources indicating 'the holy grail' is on the cards for a merger.

I also don't believe that the loss of a City Council, or two independent councils, will make such a huge difference. As long as they are both administrated correctly and function correctly than I see no issues. Prospective companies don't check "Is this place a City? No? **** em, im off to Galway man". There are other more important factors in consideration. Waterford is not the only city or county being part of a reform so its not a matter of the government just picking on the Deise folk because of evil big Phil.

O Riain wrote: »

Why is not happening to Galway? Or Cork? Or anywhere else besides Limerick and Waterford? I think I saw you mention the fact that "how do we know there are not other mergers on the table" before, the fact is we dont and neither do you. If this happens to Waterford and no where else, which at this stage in our history is extremely likely, it is as other people have stated another example of the slow and extremely painful diminishing of Waterford City. If they did a full sweep across the whole board I would be 110% behind this but as it stands, as a cautious Waterford man who see's how we have been mistreated, mishandled and neglected over the years I just simply cannot accept it.

Tipperary has merged, Limerick than Waterford. Galway appears to be next, according to today's news. I think I covered the rest in my answer to nkay1985 tho.

I'm not going to swear blindly that the article on Breaking News is correct. Its a fairly strong indication but anything can happen. Some people have been screaming blue murder that its 'Just Waterford' when Tipperary and Limerick got merged. Shock and horror that big Phil has it in for Waterford only when previous mergers and future mergers state differently. Limerick still being a City IIRC, but Phil will definitely take Waterford down apparently. I have repeatedly stated we need to calm down and wait. Wait until we know exactly what is going to happen and stop listening to people with hidden agendas pushing the horror story on people.

If Galway is merged - plenty of eggs on faces around Waterford. Wait folks, wait until we know for certain and then if its just us being singled out than you wont see me sitting back saying "Sure, there a great bunch and they made the right choice". Todays news is a perfect example as to why I didn't want to jump the gun.

jad2007

Its not often I say it but I agree with Sully 100%. By jumping the gun we just make Waterford look militant. Wait and see what's in the report and then if needed protest.

Psychedelic

I was looking forward to seeing if Mary Roche would back down after today's news, but she just tweeted this:

Hogan looking to downgrade #Galway city too now according to story on @breakingnewsie #handsoffwaterford #Waterford #whataboutcork @wellboy

So she still thinks this is all about Hogan is trying to downgrade cities, even though it has now been proven that these council mergers have nothing to do with loss of city status. Does she think he is trying to downgrade Kilkenny too, because apparently KK and Carlow councils will be merged.

fricatus

jad2007 wrote: »

By jumping the gun we just make Waterford look militant.

So what? It's much better if we're standing up for ourselves rather than just accepting it like so many sheep!

I find it funny that Galway has not been mentioned up until now, other than in some obscure policy document. Indeed Sully admitted to me in this thread that he had no answer to that question, and in fairness Sully is rarely short of an answer! Who's to say that the pressure exerted by the local media and the shirt campaign over the past week or so hasn't forced the government's hand on merging other councils, and not just Waterford, Tipp and Limerick?

jad2007 wrote: »

Wait and see what's in the report and then if needed protest.

After a deal is done it's no time to protest! Paudie Coffey made the fair point in his statement that there had been opportunities to debate this, which our public representatives didn't make use of. In fairness to him, he's right. If you want a policy changed, the time to get up in arms about it is as soon as there's a sniff of it in the air.

fricatus

Psychedelic wrote: »

I was looking forward to seeing if Mary Roche would back down after today's news, but she just tweeted this:


So she still thinks this is all about Hogan is trying to downgrade cities, even though it has now been proven that these council mergers have nothing to do with loss of city status.

TBH, I'm very disappointed that they're thinking of doing the same in Galway. The reasons that it doesn't make sense to do this in Waterford also apply to Galway. Despite its recent success, the west still needs a thriving city at its heart, and that city needs its own council, and not to have its focus taken away by non-urban concerns.

By all means merge neighbouring county councils, but the cities all need specifically focussed councils to drive their own particular agendas forward. My own view is that if a city has an urban population of a particular figure, it should automatically have a city council covering the urban area, regardless of county boundaries.

If you set this level at 50,000 you would have five city councils, with Waterford and Limerick extending into Kilkenny and Clare respectively. If you set it at 25,000 you could have a city council in Kilkenny, and also in larger places like Dundalk, Drogheda and Ennis. I would argue that Swords and Bray, being contiguous with Dublin, should come under a Greater Dublin council, but they could equally have their own city councils (as Lisburn and Newtonabbey do north of the border).

What's happening in Waterford is a downgrade of the city, no doubt about it. It doesn't make me one bit happier if the same is to happen to Galway, although I'm relieved if we're not being singled out as I thought we were.

Perhaps Limerick, Galway and Waterford all need to lobby for retention of their councils and indeed expansion into their hinterlands?