US Ambassador to Libya killed by mob

Nodin

christmas2012 wrote: »

Ayaan Hirsi Ali was making points about how blacks were looked down on by certain sects of muslims and in general arab muslims would look down on them..

Really.

It's a bit odd how you managed to translate that into "The whole religion revolves,the main themes of it,is ............(3) psychotic hatred for those who are black".

Why have you changed your tune between now and the post you made?

JustinDee

christmas2012 wrote: »

Ayaan Hirsi Ali was making points about how blacks were looked down on by certain sects of muslims and in general arab muslims would look down on them..

Oh ffs.
Why don't we all just step away from the keyboard, slot a pig under arm and go do a jig at a crossroads as generalisms seem to be the done thing these days. I suppose you eat fish every friday and walk to church every Sunday.

Erm . . . Mods, surely enough now of insulting tosh about Jews and Muslims from posters like this?? She is taking the proverbial.
This thread is so done.

christmas2012

Im not insulting them im making observations..

Frank Grimes

christmas2012 wrote: »

Im not insulting them im making observations..

I think the point he's making is that the sweeping, ill-informed generalisations about Muslims/Islam which you are continuously posting are the problem.

Nodin

christmas2012 wrote: »

Im not insulting them im making observations..

No, you're talking insulting absolute, unfounded crap. For example...

The whole religion revolves,the main themes of it,is ............(3) psychotic hatred for those who are black".

You might explain why you've changed your tune somewhat on that one.


And of course, the classic

,im suprised muslims can function with so much hate coursing through their veins for us,its remarkable they get anything done with five rounds on a prayer mat.

JustinDee

christmas2012 wrote: »

Im not insulting them im making observations..

I've "observed" Irish women doing their make-up whilst driving in busy traffic, laughed at them in 'Housewife of the Year' and sat gobsmacked at some Irish women's efforts at parking in car parks and service stations.
Unfounded? No. Generalisations if I apply to you? Most certainly. Insulting? If I lump you in as a 'typical Irish woman', it would be insulting to you.

Quit generalising on something you obviously have little experience or knowledge of. You have no idea whatsoever of Jews, for example. I find your last comment on Jewish folk as woefully insulting as much as it is simply bullsh. Some rather silly quotes exemplify this. Cherry-picking subjective internet quotes and accompanying them with limp anecdotal lines says more about the poster than about their ill-informed chosen grumble.

Kinski

Denerick wrote: »

Its irrelevant that a couple of private individuals made a film that offends some people. That is completely irrelevant. I fear for the future of humanity if this starts to become an excuse for political violence. Nobody really believes that the film itself caused this, it was manipulated by extremists in order to give them tactical cover and cause an international incident like this.

I always thought politics was the excuse for political violence...

Eggy Baby!

The whole religion revolves,the main themes of it,is ............(3) psychotic hatred for those who are black".

Aside from the fact that the Moors, probably the most obvious crowd of Muslims in history, were largely black.

Tea drinker

Muslims have told me there is a pecking order in their society, I think Palestinians were at the top of it though Saudi's must be well up their on account of Mecca. I don't think black africans / north africans figure too high. Some cleric threatened to ban Moroccan women from Mecca on account of some alleged activities they were involved in. Of course all the men are saints.

Denerick

Tea drinker wrote: »

Muslims have told me there is a pecking order in their society, I think Palestinians were at the top of it though Saudi's must be well up their on account of Mecca. I don't think black africans / north africans figure too high. Some cleric threatened to ban Moroccan women from Mecca on account of some alleged activities they were involved in. Of course all the men are saints.

Americans have told me there is a pecking order in their society, I think Whites were at the top of it though Blacks's must be well up their on account of Obama. I don't think Jews / Hispanics figure too high. Some politician threatened to ban Mexican women from California on account of some alleged activities they were involved in. Of course all the men are saints.

lagente

Tea drinker wrote: »

Muslims have told me there is a pecking order in their society, I think Palestinians were at the top of it though Saudi's must be well up their on account of Mecca. I don't think black africans / north africans figure too high. Some cleric threatened to ban Moroccan women from Mecca on account of some alleged activities they were involved in. Of course all the men are saints.

Morocco is the famous destination for temporary marriages, ie. Islamic prostitution. Goes to show, being a Muslim doesn't mean you can't behave immorally and get away with it. The bottom line is money talks in the Arab world, with its huge gap between rich and poor.

ill-informed generalisations about Muslims/Islam which you are continuously posting are the problem.

Sneaky, I am banned from Islam on boards and given warnings for attacking Islam. Doesn't stop me though.

Nodin

lagente wrote: »

Morocco is the (............)though.

Would you care to get back to me on this?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80778274&postcount=145

Frank Grimes

Tea drinker wrote: »

Muslims have told me there is a pecking order in their society

Which society would this be? or do you think 1.5 billion people share the same 'society'?

lagente wrote: »

Sneaky, I am banned from Islam on boards and given warnings for attacking Islam. Doesn't stop me though.

What is "sneaky" about what I said? I don't care what you post or where - my issue with that poster is their complete lack of understanding of the religion and its adherents and their insistence on posting ridiculous generalisations as fact.

Tea drinker

lagente wrote: »

Morocco is the famous destination for temporary marriages, ie. Islamic prostitution. Goes to show, being a Muslim doesn't mean you can't behave immorally and get away with it. The bottom line is money talks in the Arab world, with its huge gap between rich and poor.

/offtopic When I lived in Morocco I met a young british muslim who was there for his second wife. He didn't speak too highly of her at all, he actually came across a lot more backward than the the moroccan muslims. He wanted to get money for her from the DHS but they didn't support polygamous wives.

My point about the pecking order was to aupport the Hirsi ali statement and note there seemed to be a lot of racism displayed against the coloured community in Libya post Gaddaffi. Being kept in cages and literally force fed the old libyan flag seems extreme.
Whole towns were emptied of coloured people. But I guess it's not racism or ethnic cleansing unless someone with "colourless hands" does it.

To make another generalisation, worldwide the typical demonstrations since the ambasssador was killed were in favour of his killing, an innocent man in no way connected with the stupid film. Sure there have been a few peaceful demonstrations, and even some condemning the killing of innocents. But by and large seems to be great support for it. Look at the demonstrations in OZ, with slogans such as "behead those who insult Islam." Pictures of Osama (killed 3500+ innocents) , toddlers photographed holding the hate speech, and of course the fact that the ambassador was killed on sept 11, really shows an unrepentent disrepespectful islamic world. There's something seriously wrong when the guys are getting fired up by immams on fridays to go out and attack innocent people.

Ultimately the US was highly naive to drop a poorly defended consulate into a country which supplied many AQ fighters against them in Iraq. West and Islam seems condemned to make the same mistakes over and over.

JustinDee

Tea drinker wrote: »

Muslims have told me there is a pecking order in their society, I think Palestinians were at the top of it though Saudi's must be well up their on account of Mecca

Palestinians are on or around the top of this alleged hierarchy of the muslim world (of which your perception seems to limit itself to the Middle East), are they?
How do you think they sit in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt? Top of the ladder? Indonesia or Malaysia?
I think if you look outside these anecdotes, you'll find things very different.

SamHarris

Frank Grimes wrote: »

Which society would this be? or do you think 1.5 billion people share the same 'society'?

There certainly are pan Islamic tropes and trends. Perhaps the most obvious one is the willingness to support, say, the 7/7 bombings by reference to actions in the Middle East. Perhaps a better way of putting it is shared politics, far from monolithic but certainly widespread and common.

SamHarris

JustinDee wrote: »

Palestinians are on or around the top of this alleged hierarchy of the muslim world (of which your perception seems to limit itself to the Middle East), are they?
How do you think they sit in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt? Top of the ladder? Indonesia or Malaysia?
I think if you look outside these anecdotes, you'll find things very different.

Racism is endemic in the Arab world in particular, however to say the Palestinians are at 'the top' of the pecking order is crazy - they are often treated worse in the Arab countries they flee to than by the lands they are forced to leave.

JustinDee

SamHarris wrote: »

Racism is endemic in the Arab world in particular, however to say the Palestinians are at 'the top' of the pecking order is crazy - they are often treated worse in the Arab countries they flee to than by the lands they are forced to leave.

Not "in particular" but just as evident as in countries like Ireland etc. Palestinians were and still are seen to be held in fairly low esteem in certain countries such as those I listed.

I'll also add that the 'Muslim World' does not equate to 'The Arab World'. Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Indonesia, Malaysia and Bangladesh are not Arabic.

SamHarris

JustinDee wrote: »

Not "in particular" but just as evident as in countries like Ireland etc. Palestinians were and still are seen to be held in fairly low esteem in certain countries such as those I listed.

I'll also add that the 'Muslim World' does not equate to 'The Arab World'. Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Indonesia, Malaysia and Bangladesh are not Arabic.

No, orders of magnitude more than Ireland or any Western country - leaving aside anecdotle evidence such as Iraqi insurgents waiting for US patrols with black troops to attack or the relative wage and treatment of even indigenous minorities such as the Bedhouin, or the treatment of south east Asians upon arrival in the wealthier Gulf states, even ignoring all that simple polls tell a story of the mindset prevailant in these countries. http://www.pewglobal.org/2006/06/22/i-muslims-and-the-west-how-each-sees-the-other/

Yes it is clear that there is a disturbing anti-Muslim trend in the West, but to even imply it is begining to have parity with the anti-West/Jew/enemy de jour in Muslim societies and the problems it causes is dishonest to say the least.

Its telling that if you google 'arabs polled on race' you get a heap of stories of anti-Arabism but none about their own enormous issues. Just like in this thread the greater narrative is deflected from a bunch of people killing an ambassador over a movie to 'in the name of god, dont point out they are more prone to this than other communities.' the cowardice is pervasisve, reading the Indepednant you would think it was the man who made the movie that killed the ambassador.

The Arab 'world' is the heart of the Islamic one, there is alot of overlap and if you notice a trend in one it often continues into the other.

Obviously saying any particular trait is true for 1.6 billion people or even across all the sects of Islam is, at best, so incredibly unlikely and difficult to prove the criticism becomes vacuos.

However the amount that this prevents all criticism, and re routes debate, of the very real problems in entire sects within Islam is an issue people are just going to have to deal with.

When dealing in sociological terms it is permited however not to have to say in every second sentance 'but most Muslims are not violent'. Lets just take that as a give and move the hell on.

JustinDee

Who do you think you are to call me "dishonest"?? Sanctimoniously sitting behind an anonymous moniker and purporting to display some form of retroactively dug-up 'expertise' while blurting generalism after generalism doesn't do much for your pro-agendaic argument. I couldn't give a stuff if you wish to continue lumping swathes of demographs as one. It changes nothing of my own experiences.
Unbelievable. Move on indeed.

Nodin

SamHarris wrote: »

No, orders of magnitude more than Ireland or any Western country - leaving aside anecdotle evidence such as Iraqi insurgents waiting for US patrols with black troops to attack.... .

...such a juicy one that you couldn't not include it, despite its anecdotal nature.

SamHarris wrote: »

or the relative wage and treatment of even indigenous minorities such as the Bedhouin, or the treatment of south east Asians upon arrival in the wealthier Gulf states, .

Discrimination against minorities? Immigrants getting the shitty end of the stick? Truly these Arabs are unique amongst men.

Frank Grimes

SamHarris wrote: »

When dealing in sociological terms it is permited however not to have to say in every second sentance 'but most Muslims are not violent'. Lets just take that as a give and move the hell on.

Part of "dealing in sociological terms" is to challenge gross generalisations and stereotypes and the adherence to dominant narratives and discourses, so it is necessary to point these out where they occur.

Denerick

Frank Grimes wrote: »

Part of "dealing in sociological terms" is to challenge gross generalisations and stereotypes and the adherence to dominant narratives and discourses, so it is necessary to point these out where they occur.

The most important aspect of all this is to challenge the idea that Muslims are somehow wholly homogenous and working in concert. The idea that the Muslim world and Muslims in general think and act as one is endemic in most western people's prejudices. They are people by and large, just people, and should be treated as such. Like all people they have their flaws and their virtues, but somehow a rabid intolerance manages to take hold whenever a terrible thing happens in a Muslim country, as if it somehow is a sign of the medieval backwardness of these societies. Yet when it is pointed out that riots, rapes and murders are every bit as frequent in the affluent west, people seem to engage in a common cognitive dissonance. There isn't a clash of civilisations, merely a clash of demagogues, the victor being he who riles up the most amount of people by stroking their prejudicial erogenous zones. At times like these, it is vital that reasonable people question and challenge such mindlessness, designed as it is to manipulate and stupefy simpler minds.

Across Europe a dangerous populism has taken hold. There is a dark heart to European populism, perhaps we need another holocaust to remind us of the importance of thinking in proportion and treating people as individuals, not as irreconcilable tribes and enemies.

Frank Grimes

Denerick wrote: »

The idea that the Muslim world and Muslims in general think and act as one is endemic in most western people's prejudices.

Yep, no objections here.

Jonny7

Denerick wrote: »

Across Europe a dangerous populism has taken hold. There is a dark heart to European populism, perhaps we need another holocaust to remind us of the importance of thinking in proportion and treating people as individuals, not as irreconcilable tribes and enemies.

Perhaps we just need one of our old posts to remind us of the importance of thinking in proportion and treating people as individuals huh

Denerick wrote: »

America is a nation in economic, scientific and intellectual decline. Its population are increasingly gullible and are struggling to maintain even basic math and literacy standard. They are the authors of their own destruction. What fascinates me is that so many of them maintain a pathetic cock sure attitude about their glorious future.

Is this is a sure sign of America's decline? They have too many people who will lap up this extremist nonsense

Denerick

Jonny7 wrote: »

Perhaps we just need one of our old posts to remind us of the importance of thinking in proportion and treating people as individuals huh

1: Really creepy you would go through my post history and regurgitate something I don't remember posting.

2. So what? I was broadly talking about the political system and how its democratic institutions respond to demagogues spouting hatred and ignorance. America is in a state of material and intellectual decline, its literacy standards are falling, its citizenry basic knowledge of world affairs is often dangerously tenuous - empirical evidence backs this up through numerous surveys. The economic figures attest to its growing inequalities and its declining and/or stagnant economic output, its deindustrialisation, its over-reliance on service industry jobs which often underemploy or underpay people, its housing market, its various stock market bubbles, its ailing infrastructure, ad nauesum. This is rather different to saying something like 'Muslims are a violent race' (sic), or 'Muslims are plotting to overthrow the west', as if they are one uniform entity behaving as members of one singular hive mind.

3. Again, really really creepy.

Jonny7

Denerick wrote: »

1: Really creepy you would go through my post history and regurgitate something I don't remember posting.

2. So what? I was broadly talking about the political system and how its democratic institutions respond to demagogues spouting hatred and ignorance.

3. Again, really really creepy.

Relax, nothing against you personally, it took 5 seconds, I just find it amusing we sit getting all preachy about treating people as individuals... except of course if they vote Republican or whomever our favorite focus-group is.

Anyway, back on topic.. apart from the Satanic Verses, I can't for the life of me remember any similar Islamic outrage over depictions of or references to Mohammed pre-2003.. it seems to be a recent phenomenon.

AlekSmart

Denerick wrote: »

2. So what? I was broadly talking about the political system and how its democratic institutions respond to demagogues spouting hatred and ignorance. America is in a state of material and intellectual decline, its literacy standards are falling, its citizenry basic knowledge of world affairs is often dangerously tenuous - empirical evidence backs this up through numerous surveys. The economic figures attest to its growing inequalities and its declining and/or stagnant economic output, its deindustrialisation, its over-reliance on service industry jobs which often underemploy or underpay people, its housing market, its various stock market bubbles, its ailing infrastructure, ad nauesum.

Crikey Denerick,leave the Izlamik issue aside for a second and just look at how closely your description matches the Ould Sod and it's people.

To a T !!!

We have,over a long period forged our own "Unique Relationship" with all things American,particularly post Telefis Eireann.....

It has,in some ways,been to teach the beastly Brits a lesson,but one wonders if the Germans,French and Italians have embraced Americana equally as tightly ?

Laminations

Denerick wrote: »

The most important aspect of all this is to challenge the idea that Muslims are somehow wholly homogenous and working in concert.

I would've thought the most important aspect in all this is to condemn the killing and violence and call for some respect for life to be shown by the people who are demanding respect for their religion.

As for people thinking all Muslims are the same, the people who think or argue this are a small minority and to paint anyone with concerns about Islam as such is being guilty of the generalisations you accuse others of. There is a growing problem of fundamentalism in Islam. There has been thousands marching and demonstrating over this and various flaws points of violence. There have been official calls for censure and censorship. Pointing this out is as much saying that all Muslims have a problem as saying all Irish have a problem with alcohol if you point out a problem with alcohol in Irish society.

People are dying over this. Offence or religious defence are not excuses, they are in themselves an abuse of the religion.

SamHarris

Nodin wrote: »

...such a juicy one that you couldn't not include it, despite its anecdotal nature.

Sure.

Nodin wrote: »

Discrimination against minorities? Immigrants getting the shitty end of the stick? Truly these Arabs are unique amongst men.

Didnt say they were special, pointed out the levels of rascism, accordingto actual evidence such as polling, is far higher in their societies than ours, so the claim it is similiar is just not true.

SamHarris

JustinDee wrote: »

Who do you think you are to call me "dishonest"?? Sanctimoniously sitting behind an anonymous moniker and purporting to display some form of retroactively dug-up 'expertise' while blurting generalism after generalism doesn't do much for your pro-agendaic argument. I couldn't give a stuff if you wish to continue lumping swathes of demographs as one. It changes nothing of my own experiences.
Unbelievable. Move on indeed.

Ah so you have anecdotal evidence that you feel should replace polling and actual data? Yes, that is dishonest, seeing as though you would straight away point out how stupid that is if the reverse was the case.

Generalism after generalism? No I showed a poll that clearly demonstrates their levels of rascism, for example towards the Jews, is far far higher than any comparable issues in Western societies. Im sure its very irritating that your opinion is not backed up by facts, but thats just the way it is Im afraid.

Could you imagine if thousands of Americans went on a murderous rampage over an Arab film and the debate never got past "Well not ALL Americans are like that!". The level of evasion people resort to with regard to Islam's problems is stunning.

SamHarris

Frank Grimes wrote: »

Part of "dealing in sociological terms" is to challenge gross generalisations and stereotypes and the adherence to dominant narratives and discourses, so it is necessary to point these out where they occur.

Sure. But the vast majority of the times on threads dealing with Islam the debate never moves past that. Its said, its done, move on to the real discussion.

Nodin

SamHarris wrote: »

Sure. But the vast majority of the times on threads dealing with Islam the debate never moves past that. Its said, its done, move on to the real discussion.

The fact is that it needs to be restated, given repeated hysterical generalisations.

SamHarris

Denerick wrote: »

1: Really creepy you would go through my post history and regurgitate something I don't remember posting.

2. So what? I was broadly talking about the political system and how its democratic institutions respond to demagogues spouting hatred and ignorance. America is in a state of material and intellectual decline, its literacy standards are falling, its citizenry basic knowledge of world affairs is often dangerously tenuous - empirical evidence backs this up through numerous surveys. The economic figures attest to its growing inequalities and its declining and/or stagnant economic output, its deindustrialisation, its over-reliance on service industry jobs which often underemploy or underpay people, its housing market, its various stock market bubbles, its ailing infrastructure, ad nauesum. This is rather different to saying something like 'Muslims are a violent race' (sic), or 'Muslims are plotting to overthrow the west', as if they are one uniform entity behaving as members of one singular hive mind.

3. Again, really really creepy.

No, its a pretty brilliant pointing out of your hypocrisy. As is often the case the people determined one group not be judged by polls and data are the quickest and most 'extreme' when pursuing their own agendas.

SamHarris

Nodin wrote: »

The fact is that it needs to be restated, given repeated hysterical generalisations.

Maybe, and in a thread I dont mind generalisations being pointed out as such. But if you read for example al Jazeera or al Arabiya (english versions) they are similiarly devoted to dealing with 'why are Muslims portrayed so negativly' and never 'why are Muslims the only group to react in this way, multiple times, to nearly unheard of media in other countries?'. The real debate the Muslim community should be having is not being had because of the constant victim mentality put forward by these and other publications. I can only imagine how dedicated their Arabic versions are to reinforcing this mindset.


If you are still not convinced that some serious discussions need to be had within the Muslim community, or its constituint communities, then very little can happen that would convince you of the need.

Nodin

SamHarris wrote: »

Maybe, and in a thread I dont mind generalisations being pointed out as such. But if you read for example al Jazeera or al Arabiya (english versions) they are similiarly devoted to dealing with 'why are Muslims portrayed so negativly' and never 'why are Muslims the only group to react in this way, multiple times, to nearly unheard of media in other countries?'.
.

They're the only ones that "react in this way"? Funny....

http://www.smh.com.au/world/hindus-in-valentines-day-attack-on-lovers-20090215-884e.html

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/people/news/article_1292112.php/Richard_Gere_causes_riots_in_India_over_Shetty_kiss_n_hug

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/sethu-dmk-chief-sticks-to-his-stand/218827/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-17727379

SamHarris wrote: »

The real debate the Muslim community should be having is not being had because of the constant victim mentality put forward by these and other publications. I can only imagine how dedicated their Arabic versions are to reinforcing this mindset.
.

The latest buzz words used to give dismisive responses to genuine complaints a pseudo intellectual cloak of respectability.

Laminations

SamHarris wrote: »

The real debate the Muslim community should be having is not being had because of the constant victim mentality put forward by these and other publications.

This I think is true. While criticising generalisations can highlight the logical flaws in an argument they have now become the debate rather than a caveat to the debate - which should be on the violent murderous reaction to religious criticism, parody or offence.

While it is hugely offensive to criticise someone's deities (more than a non-believer could understand) if like to think that logically the relative offense taken over the portrayal of your god in an insulting light should pale in comparison with the level of offense taken having your god used as a reason to kill and your religion abused to justify bloody revenge.

SeanW

Nodin wrote: »

They're the only ones that "react in this way"? Funny....

http://www.smh.com.au/world/hindus-in-valentines-day-attack-on-lovers-20090215-884e.html

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/people/news/article_1292112.php/Richard_Gere_causes_riots_in_India_over_Shetty_kiss_n_hug

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/sethu-dmk-chief-sticks-to-his-stand/218827/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-17727379

That's funny, because there are a lot of Hindu Indian immigrants to the Western world and I can't remember the last time they killed anyone in the West for public displays of affection, celebrating valentines day, or otherwise starting a worldwide orgy of violence, murder and intimidation (behead those who insult Hinduism).

I was also not aware that those extremist groups of Hinduism were as powerful as Wahabbism and Salafism is within Islam ... you learn something new every day :rolleyes:

In your desperation to defend Islamic extremism, you're making a mountain out a molehill (the Hindu extremism) and molehill out of a mountain (Islamic extremism).

Nodin

SeanW wrote: »

That's funny, because there are a lot of Hindu Indian immigrants to the Western world and I can't remember the last time they killed anyone in the West for public displays of affection, celebrating valentines day, or otherwise starting a worldwide orgy of violence, murder and intimidation (behead those who insult Hinduism).

.....Hindus are not remotely present in the west in the same numbers, nor is there the same spread, generally, as Islam.

I wasn't aware that we were supposed to only care if some group "killed anyone in the West".

SeanW wrote: »

I was also not aware that those extremist groups of Hinduism were as powerful as Wahabbism and Salafism is within Islam ... you learn something new every day .

The BJP is the second largest party in India.

JustinDee

SamHarris wrote: »

Ah so you have anecdotal evidence that you feel should replace polling and actual data? Yes, that is dishonest, seeing as though you would straight away point out how stupid that is if the reverse was the case.

Generalism after generalism? No I showed a poll that clearly demonstrates their levels of rascism, for example towards the Jews, is far far higher than any comparable issues in Western societies. Im sure its very irritating that your opinion is not backed up by facts, but thats just the way it is Im afraid.

Could you imagine if thousands of Americans went on a murderous rampage over an Arab film and the debate never got past "Well not ALL Americans are like that!". The level of evasion people resort to with regard to Islam's problems is stunning.

Your 'data' is cherry-picked as are polls.
A poll can be steered any way its conductor wishes as can its sample.
I've already pointed out the plethora of insulting videos and speeches about Jews and Christians and where they can be found, so you can lay off this line you're taking with me, whoever you are.
If you're spoiling for an internet fight try somebody else.

I take issue with your generalism, because it is subjective tosh. That's all. You'll live.

Denerick

Laminations wrote: »

I would've thought the most important aspect in all this is to condemn the killing and violence and call for some respect for life to be shown by the people who are demanding respect for their religion.

As for people thinking all Muslims are the same, the people who think or argue this are a small minority and to paint anyone with concerns about Islam as such is being guilty of the generalisations you accuse others of. There is a growing problem of fundamentalism in Islam. There has been thousands marching and demonstrating over this and various flaws points of violence. There have been official calls for censure and censorship. Pointing this out is as much saying that all Muslims have a problem as saying all Irish have a problem with alcohol if you point out a problem with alcohol in Irish society.

People are dying over this. Offence or religious defence are not excuses, they are in themselves an abuse of the religion.

None of which I would disagree with, but you would have to admit that some are using these incidents to peddle their own agendas, which often have a very nefarious purpose. On both sides, of course.

SamHarris

Nodin wrote: »

The latest buzz words used to give dismisive responses to genuine complaints a pseudo intellectual cloak of respectability.

Sure. Or your wrong and the vast majority of negative press is generated by the actions of Muslims. Tell me, what widely criculated newspaper is it that you most believe dedicates time to uneccasarily vilifying Muslims?

The 'genuine complaints' is all the arab/islamo-centric media seem to do.

Again if you do not see the need for a real debate within Islam with regard to their use of violence, and any number of other issues, you might ask yourself why it is other groups react so very differently to stimuly? Instead of a single article asking why it is Muslims feel the need to violently protest for weeks over a film we get articles like this BS from al Jazeera http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/09/201291895216118375.html .

SamHarris

JustinDee wrote: »

Your 'data' is cherry-picked as are polls.
A poll can be steered any way its conductor wishes as can its sample.
I've already pointed out the plethora of insulting videos and speeches about Jews and Christians and where they can be found, so you can lay off this line you're taking with me, whoever you are.
If you're spoiling for an internet fight try somebody else.

I take issue with your generalism, because it is subjective tosh. That's all. You'll live.

Ah so because the Pew Poll does not reach the conclusions you want it to it must have been 'steered'. Or, how bout this, your opinion was wrong and is not backed up by facts?

What generalism did I make exactly that I did not back up with evidence?

Hardly spoiling for any fight, pointing out that your anecdotal evidence isnt worth piss when it directly contradicts polling is just a fact. Im sure youll live.

Nodin

SamHarris wrote: »

Sure. Or your wrong (*........)es like this BS from al Jazeera http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/09/201291895216118375.html .

Totally evading the whole "why are Muslims the only group to react in this way" thing now, are we? Thats nice. I've already shown they aren't, but it seems that point won't register. What do you call it when somebody ignores facts to stick to their notions again....?

And I've never said anything as regards "the need for a real debate within Islam with regard to their use of violence" I'm unsure why you keep on about it. The thing is, I see problems with various faiths and ideologies. However I see some people utterly ignoring the context of those problems in world terms, and examining them in isolation.

Nodin

SamHarris wrote: »

....... Instead of a single article asking why it is Muslims feel the need to violently protest for weeks over a film we get articles like this BS from al Jazeera http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/09/201291895216118375.html .

Hmmmmm.

Erik Bleich is Professor of Political Science and Director of International Politics and Economics at Middlebury College and is the author of The Freedom to Be Racist? How the United States and Europe Struggle to Preserve Freedom and Combat Racism, published by Oxford University Press.

The views expressed in this article are the author's own and do not necessarily reflect Al Jazeera's editorial policy.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/09/201291895216118375.html

Maybe you should ask Professor Bleich why Al Jazeera publish his "BS", Oxford University Press why they published his doubtless thematically similar "BS" book and Middlebury College why they gave him a job?

SamHarris

Nodin wrote: »

Hmmmmm.


http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/09/201291895216118375.html

Maybe you should ask Professor Bleich why Al Jazeera publish his "BS", Oxford University Press why they published his doubtless thematically similar "BS" book and Middlebury College why they gave him a job?

What?

SamHarris

Nodin wrote: »

Totally evading the whole "why are Muslims the only group to react in this way" thing now, are we? Thats nice. I've already shown they aren't, but it seems that point won't register. What do you call it when somebody ignores facts to stick to their notions again....?

And I've never said anything as regards "the need for a real debate within Islam with regard to their use of violence" I'm unsure why you keep on about it. The thing is, I see problems with various faiths and ideologies. However I see some people utterly ignoring the context of those problems in world terms, and examining them in isolation.

Yes avoiding it, or ignoring it because it is very clearly an attempt to show equivolance where there is none. Of course religions protest against all sorts of things, that they do does not change that Islam is by far the most likely to violently protest all over the world over perceived 'insults'.

As is often the case people persume that the violence within Islam is proven to be not a special case because they can point to an incidence where, say, a Christian killed an abortion doctor. It is not about a single case, it is about a greater arc that has taken place over the last decades. It is not merely about these particular protests it is about the violence throughout the Muslim world, the support for violent groups and actions by Muslims all over the world and perhaps even further about the manner in which Islam is impacting upon the world in general. The fact that it can occour elsewhere does not mean in the slightest that the frequency and intensity of Muslim reactions are somehow the norm.

I keep on about it because it hasnt even become the topic of this thread yet. If you agreed with it maybe you should have mentioned it instead of ignoring it completly. Uh hu, and what is it that causes these problems, in your estimation?

Nodin

SamHarris wrote: »

Yes avoiding it, or ignoring it because it is very clearly an attempt to show equivolance where there is none. Of course religions protest against all sorts of things, that they do does not change that Islam is by far the most likely to violently protest all over the world over perceived 'insults'.

But it isn't.

SamHarris wrote: »

As is often the case people persume that the violence within Islam is proven to be not a special case because they can point to an incidence where, say, a Christian killed an abortion doctor.

Did you actually look at the links I put up? Have you ever bothered to do any research on the subject at all?

SamHarris

Nodin wrote: »

But it isn't.

Sure, I mean just the other day Buddists went on a rampage over Kung Fu Panda.

Nodin wrote: »

Did you actually look at the links I put up? Have you ever bothered to do any research on the subject at all?

Yes. I was using the example often trotted out by others. So you believe other religions, at this time, have the same propensity towards violence, all around the globe? Please, dont keep it to yourself.

JustinDee

SamHarris wrote: »

Ah so because the Pew Poll does not reach the conclusions you want it to it must have been 'steered'. Or, how bout this, your opinion was wrong and is not backed up by facts?

What generalism did I make exactly that I did not back up with evidence?

Hardly spoiling for any fight, pointing out that your anecdotal evidence isnt worth piss when it directly contradicts polling is just a fact. Im sure youll live.

Enough with this arrogant bilge.
I don't need a specially seeded poll to tell me what I experience myself, no more than I need a weighted poll from any think-tank to try and convince me the Irish are good drivers and the roads are safe.
Five years in Israel, seven in Australia, five in Norway, one in Malaysia, two in Greece amongst other regions over the years has educated me enough to avoid lumping every sod I might disagree with into the one barrel, like Irish are avid roman catholics who eat fish on fridays and support the Provos. Moral relativism about how effwads around the world are prodded into reacting in extremis over a daft youTube video doesn't excuse some of the sectarian actions of your own.

Its not anecdotal "evidence" I'm posting. Just an opinion. This is an internet forum. Not a courtroom. Anonymous monikers like yourself can stir the pot and retroactively dig up anything that suits them via a search engine all you like. Just don't expect not to get pulled up on it from time to time.

You're done. Just park it. We get it. You don't dig Muslims. Quit the pigeon-holing and check people's posting history before you make an even bigger trail of rubbish on these forums.