Hillsborough Cover-up revealed. MOD NOTE #1

opr

This explains the 3.15 cut off and why it was so important.

Anne Williams:

My fight for JUSTICE has always been to try and get a new inquest into the death of Kevin, as you will be aware the coroner imposed a 3.15pm cut off point at the inquests the reason being that all the 95 at the time would have been dead or brain dead so nothing was heard after that time. I was told just before I went into Kevin's inquest that he had called for his "mum" when he was in the gym at 4.pm. the West Midland Police told me that this could not have happened, Kevin's injuries were to bad and what the police lady heard was body wind.

I was devastated when i heard what they told me about Kevin, he was the worst case of all the 95 ( poor Tony Bland was still ill at this time) I new something was wrong Kevin did not have certain markings that they had said so I started to look into it.
Over the years I have tracked down everybody that touched Kevin that dreadful day, I found the police lady an off duty policeman from Liverpool who found pules in Kevin at 3.37.pm the carriers who carried kevin across the pitch say he was alive, I then decided to have Kevin's injuries explained to me, I have spent hours discussing kevin's injuries with some of the highest Forensic Pathologist in the country, it turned out that Kevin's injuries were quite mild he was savable all he needed was oxygen, he did not die from Traumatic asphyxia and he would not have been dead or brain dead by 3.15pm.

This means Kevin does not relate to the 3.15pm cut off time, I know my son dies in the arms of the police lady at 4.pm that day and i have all the evidence to prove it, either in witness statements visual evidence and forensic reports the latest from Dr Nat Carey who carried out the autopsy's on Hollie and Jessica one of the highest pathologists in the country.

I then decided to take the system on, I want a new inquest on Kevin to put the records straight, I have been round the system three times submitting my memorial to the Attorney General asking for a new inquest into the death of Kevin under section 3 of the coroners act, I have always been refused even though the evidence has always been there.

I know the reason why I cannot get a new inquest into the death of my son Kevin, barristers have always told me that if Kevin gets his inquest it will open the gates for the other 95 because it will run to 4.pm when Kevin died and the truth would come out of what happened between the 3.15pm cut off point and 4pm that day when the police cordoned off 43 ambulances never implemented the major disaster plan, it was lack off care that the 96 died and they don't want that, also there would have to be an inquiry into that time when Hillsborough was at its worst, when the liverpool fans were left to help the dying and injured,which will open a big can of worms.
After going round the system three times every time submitting new evidence and still not being able to beat the system the Human right act came into force Section 2 relates to the evidence which i have on Kevin.

The Right To Life which means Kevin has not had his human right he died in the hands of the state and that means he is entitled to a fair trial to determan how he came to his death, with the 3.15pm cut off time at the inquest Kevin has not had a fare trial also so under section 2 I as Kevin's mum have a right to a full investigation into how my son died.
Article 2 of the European Convention of Human rights, the Human Rights Act 1998, their are 2 grounds which we are submitting evidence, ground one Insufficiency of inquiry and ground two discovery of new facts.

Because i am going through The European Convention of Human Right I have got to go through this country again, in November last year I submitted a new memorial to the Attorney general asking him again for a new inquest into the death of Kevin , in Feb this year he refused me so that means we will take the attorney general for a Judicial Review against his answer, the evidence is there under section 13 of the coroners act and section 2 of the Human Rights Act 1998. In Judicial Review it will be up to the judges to decide if Kevin can have a new inquest if they refuse then I can then lodge Kevin's case in Europe.
At the moment my solicitor has written back to the attorney General asking him to review the case again before we go for Judicial Review, When the Attorney General refused Kevin his inquest he never gave me a reason why just more sympathy, ( Which I do not need).

At Least a Judicial Review will bring a lot of the truth of what really happened at Hillsborough and to Kevin and the other 95 who died with him.
I hope this answers some of your questions? I have tried to write it as brief as possible and to put it in lay terms, I am still learning the legal terms myself, what i have learned is that the legal system in this country does not work.

Opr

Our man in Havana

Sickening reading.

Vicxas

opr wrote: »

This explains the 3.15 cut off and why it was so important.

Anne Williams:



Opr

Reading that makes me so angry, how could people do that to a human life.

AndyP

wonderfullife wrote: »

McKenize just issued a profuse apology. I suppose it'll be rejected out of hand but at least he's finally done it.

Of course it will be rejected, because the liar Mackenzie knew it was sensationalist bullsh!t at the time. His only interest was in selling that rag. Offering an "apology" now is an insult to the victims, survivors and the people of Liverpool as a whole.

Never buy the Sun

SlickRic

thanks folks.

that makes a whole lot more sense, and I reckon i just got confused after reading too many things this last day or 2.

just horrible to read.

wonderfullife

I think it's important to be aware that legally it's so important to protect the emergency services from civil prosecution. The police, ambulance service, fire services, air-rescue services all perform a crucial role in society. They work in pressure-cooker environments. Legally there has always been an obligation to protect them from prosecutions in so far as possible, as they have a hard enough job to do without the fear and pressure of "if i mess up here, will i end up in trouble".

Equally, in law, police forces have generally had immunity from prosecutions for failings in investigations. There have been many attempts over the years to sue police forces in the U.K and globally. For example, when a serial killer should have been caught much earlier and families of his last victim sue the police based on the fact if he had been caught their loved one would still be alive. These attempts are usually rejected out of hand. The police are always attempting to do their job dilligently so they are traditionally free from fear of civil liability for any failings.

In recent years the protection the emergency services have for civil liability are slowly being eroded. I'm sure if the Justice campaign can find a way around the Statute of Limitations (the length of time after the incident you can pursue civil action) then they would go after the South Yorkshire Police Force. This is very unlikely to happen in practice.

Jelle1880

Vicxas wrote: »

Reading that makes me so angry, how could people do that to a human life.

I never really looked into personal accounts from those who lost friends and family, but that is sickening.

I can only imagine how families must feel when they hear that their child could have been saved easily.

elvis jones

Today i'm not a utd fan, just a football fan who is disgusted by what has been covered up.

I remember the people being carried on hoardings and just the sense of panic on the tv via the tv. I was only 12 but some days live in your memory.

I hope the families will finally get some closure.

Pro. F

wonderfullife wrote: »

As with Bloody Sunday i would urge people with strong feelings on the matter not to get their hopes up too high when it comes to criminal prosecutions.

There's no need to urge me not to get my hopes up. I know enough about how these things work.

wonderfullife wrote: »

Many. And some closer to home don't get as much support from Irish people as Hillsborough does. Not a criticism just an observation of how football and football support can be such a strong thing. But most Irish LFC fans so passionate about Hillsborough are not as equally passionate about Bloody Sunday, The Dublin-Monaghan bombings and the Stardust nightclub tragedy (my dad had a lucky escape left the club early). All 3 of which are likely to have impacted upon our family or friends down the generations more so than Hillsborough.

Just wish we had as much uniform passion and support for all causes for justice domestically.

How do you know this?

wonderfullife

Pro. F wrote: »

There's no need to urge me not to get my hopes up. I know enough about how these things work.



How do you know this?

I could go through the threads relating to all 3 if you want and see how many posters from the LFC super-thread or Hillsborough Justice campaign threads posted on those forums?! It'll take me 6 hours but i can do it if you like.

My point was not intended as a criticism so please don't take it as such. My point was 2 fold:

1. Football support is a strong thing. A sense of community and belonging.

and

2. In general, televised tragedies have more resonance and impact on the psyche. I would guess more Irish people have strong views and emotions on say Hillsborough and 9/11 as those 2 incidents played out in front of our eyes on television. Bloody Sunday, Dub-Monaghan and Stardust were equally tragic but there is a certain intangible connection when things unfold in front of your eyes. That seems to connect people to an incident more so than geography, where most of the Irish tragedies happened near our doorsteps and don't provoke the same sense of passionate outrage.

celt262

Is there a link to these findings?

LuckyLloyd

wonderfullife wrote: »

I could go through the threads relating to all 3 if you want and see how many posters from the LFC super-thread or Hillsborough Justice campaign threads posted on those forums?! It'll take me 6 hours but i can do it if you like.

Your theory may very well be correct, but that would be a fairly flawed way of trying to prove it imo.

opr

celt262 wrote: »

Is there a link to these findings?

Someone has uploaded the full report here - http://www.mediafire.com/view/?vbla2r6v9r2y9ap

The main site is getting hammered at the moment and can't be accessed easily.

Opr

citytillidie

opr wrote: »

Someone has uploaded the full report here - http://www.mediafire.com/view/?vbla2r6v9r2y9ap

The main site is getting hammered at the moment and can't be accessed easily.

Opr

Another location here http://www.scribd.com/doc/105704598/Hillsborough-Independent-Panel-report-summary

Guy:Incognito

Just watching Sky News and there is a guy reading out examples of police reports that were edited. Have they said if the reports were edited by the officers themselves (under instruction presumably) or after they were handed in?

I remember watching the hillsborough film years ago and iirc they showed the officers sitting down after and a senior officer going around telling them to change stuff. Not sure how accurate that was though.

Vanolder

wonderfullife wrote: »

I could go through the threads relating to all 3 if you want and see how many posters from the LFC super-thread or Hillsborough Justice campaign threads posted on those forums?! It'll take me 6 hours but i can do it if you like.

My point was not intended as a criticism so please don't take it as such. My point was 2 fold:

1. Football support is a strong thing. A sense of community and belonging.

and

2. In general, televised tragedies have more resonance and impact on the psyche. I would guess more Irish people have strong views and emotions on say Hillsborough and 9/11 as those 2 incidents played out in front of our eyes on television. Bloody Sunday, Dub-Monaghan and Stardust were equally tragic but there is a certain intangible connection when things unfold in front of your eyes. That seems to connect people to an incident more so than geography, where most of the Irish tragedies happened near our doorsteps and don't provoke the same sense of passionate outrage.

I agree with you. I'm a Liverpool fan and naturally want justice to be done and for the victims/family to be vindicated, as probably most decent footballs do, but I dont see how Irish lads can be moved to tears or in a state of ecstasy over the results of this, as it is very much a Merseyside tragedy. Fellas jumping all over twitter/facebook, or where ever, with justice96 etc just because they support a plc in England is a tad sad, most of them were not even born ffs.

It's a great day for scousers tho after so much hurt, Evertonians included, who have constantly fought along with the Reds for the truth.

citytillidie

Vanolder wrote: »

I agree with you. I'm a Liverpool fan and naturally want justice to be done and for the victims/family to be vindicated, as probably most decent footballs do, but I dont see how Irish lads can be moved to tears or in a state of ecstasy over the results of this, as it is very much a Merseyside tragedy. Fellas jumping all over twitter/facebook, or where ever, with justice96 etc just because they support a plc in England is a tad sad, most of them were not even born ffs.

It's a great day for scousers tho after so much hurt, Evertonians included, who have constantly fought along with the Reds for the truth.

I have it on par with the cover up of Bloody Sunday and being from Derry I know how that effects people and actions of a city

Vanolder

Vanolder wrote: »

I agree with you. I'm a Liverpool fan and naturally want justice to be done and for the victims/family to be vindicated, as probably most decent footballs do, but I dont see how Irish lads can be moved to tears or in a state of ecstasy over the results of this, as it is very much a Merseyside tragedy. Fellas jumping all over twitter/facebook, or where ever, with justice96 etc just because they support a plc in England is a tad sad, most of them were not even born ffs.

It's a great day for scousers tho after so much hurt, Evertonians included, who have constantly fought along with the Reds for the truth.

Why not?

Jelle1880

https://twitter.com/GregOK/status/245819632924106752/photo/1

Nice touch from Everton.

Sparks43

opr wrote: »

Someone has uploaded the full report here - http://www.mediafire.com/view/?vbla2r6v9r2y9ap

The main site is getting hammered at the moment and can't be accessed easily.

Opr

Cheers m8 for that link

Just shared it on a Private tracker site and its getting downloaded like crazy

Pro. F

wonderfullife wrote: »

I could go through the threads relating to all 3 if you want and see how many posters from the LFC super-thread or Hillsborough Justice campaign threads posted on those forums?! It'll take me 6 hours but i can do it if you like.

The Liverpool fans who discuss football regularly on the Soccer Forum are of course more likely to post on the threads and discussions about Hillsborough that take place on the Soccer Forum than they are to post on other forums. Not everybody discusses everything they have an opinion about on boards. There are plenty of people who only frequent one forum or one thread even, so the content of what they are going to discuss is shaped by that.

wonderfullife wrote: »

My point was not intended as a criticism so please don't take it as such. My point was 2 fold:

1. Football support is a strong thing. A sense of community and belonging.

and

2. In general, televised tragedies have more resonance and impact on the psyche. I would guess more Irish people have strong views and emotions on say Hillsborough and 9/11 as those 2 incidents played out in front of our eyes on television. Bloody Sunday, Dub-Monaghan and Stardust were equally tragic but there is a certain intangible connection when things unfold in front of your eyes. That seems to connect people to an incident more so than geography, where most of the Irish tragedies happened near our doorsteps and don't provoke the same sense of passionate outrage.

There were other football stadium tragedies which were televised in the 70s and 80s but don't generate nearly as much news now. I would say the Hillsborough disaster is different because of the cover up and false accusations of the fans that came afterwards and which is still being dealt with.

After thinking about it though, I do agree that because it revolves around a football club it is possible that it has been kept in peoples minds more than, for example, something like the Stardust tragedy. Bloody Sunday and the Dublin Monaghan bombings are very much complicated by the history of what has come after, especially the compromises that were necessary for the peace process, so I can definitely understand why some people might not want to discuss them as much.

ush

wonderfullife wrote: »

2. In general, televised tragedies have more resonance and impact on the psyche. I would guess more Irish people have strong views and emotions on say Hillsborough and 9/11 as those 2 incidents played out in front of our eyes on television. Bloody Sunday, Dub-Monaghan and Stardust were equally tragic but there is a certain intangible connection when things unfold in front of your eyes. That seems to connect people to an incident more so than geography, where most of the Irish tragedies happened near our doorsteps and don't provoke the same sense of passionate outrage.

Shankill Rd bombing, Warren Point, Brighton, Omagh, Enniskillen. I could go on. There's plenty of Irish tragedies and horrors. There is alot of outrage, both passionate and supressed.

But I think you're being selective (consciously or unconciously) in your view of Irish tragedies, while saying that others are selective in what they view as tragic. So much so in fact, that the point you were trying to make says more about yourself than anyone else.

wonderfullife

Vanolder wrote: »

I agree with you. I'm a Liverpool fan and naturally want justice to be done and for the victims/family to be vindicated, as probably most decent footballs do, but I dont see how Irish lads can be moved to tears or in a state of ecstasy over the results of this, as it is very much a Merseyside tragedy. Fellas jumping all over twitter/facebook, or where ever, with justice96 etc just because they support a plc in England is a tad sad, most of them were not even born ffs.

It's a great day for scousers tho after so much hurt, Evertonians included, who have constantly fought along with the Reds for the truth.

It is a great day for a lot of people in Liverpool and fans of the club who wanted this for the sake of the city of Liverpool and the families of those bereaved.

As you said though, you end up with lads in the 15-22 year old age bracket not even born at the time moved to such strong emotions by the vindication of the families who fought so hard for this. Yet those same lads, i'm going to guess, couldn't tell you the 1st thing about what happened in Stardust and the complete injustice of that inquiry, or any of the circumstances of the Dublin-Monaghan bombings. Which speaks to the affinity a lot of people, young and old, have with their football clubs.

It's sad when you see a young lad from Dublin on Twitter saying #JFT96 yet probably hasn't even a notion of the Injustice the families of the 48 who died in Artane that night have received. Or the 33 dead + 2 unborn babies dying in the heart of the city centre and in Monaghan who have never received justice.

At the end of the day i would be surprised if most Dublin based posters on here do not know somebody personally affected by either Stardust or Dub-Monaghan, whether it's parents, relatives, grandparents, friends of the family, neighbours or just people affected deeply by the news reports of the incidents at the time. I'd be even more surprised if many knew directly anybody affected by Hillsborough. There are a few on the forum of course but as a general point the Irish LFC fan base is coming at this topic from a sense of community supporting the club and the families, whereas i don't believe that same sense of community applies to the Injustice we find on our doorsteps.

Most people that post on here (at a guess) are probably 18-35.

Anyone who's towards the latter age will remember watching Hillsbrough on telly, something that obviously can't be said about the other tragedies mentioned.

wonderfullife

ush wrote: »

Shankill Rd bombing, Warren Point, Brighton, Omagh, Enniskillen. I could go on. There's plenty of Irish tragedies and horrors. There is alot of outrage, both passionate and supressed.

But I think you're being selective (consciously or unconciously) in your view of Irish tragedies, while saying that others are selective in what they view as tragic. So much so in fact, that the point you were trying to make says more about yourself than anyone else.

It's not about Irish tragedies, there have been countless, it's about epic scales of injustice a la Hillsborough in that cover-ups and inquiries and justice were not done. It extends further than the examples i gave; and my only point is that football and football support is a powerful thing that leads people to such emotions on Hillsborough that are not present elsewhere. I am as delighted as anyone else with today, just wish we had similar support and similar days for domestic injustice.

K-9

I get your point wonderfullife, Bloody Sunday didn't directly affect me, I was too young, but I do remember Loughgall, Enniskillen, Greysteel, the Shankhill, Omagh etc, they'd have been close to me or I'd have read up on them as I took an interest in Northern politics, for my sins. Shhot to kill would be one I think is terrible.

Really, what people take an interest in, they'll campaign for injustices. You get people from Ireland who are interested in Middle East atrocities, doesn't mean they don't care less about things in Ireland, which is your insinuation if you extend the logic.

Don't think this is the day to be going over this point again and again, so I'll leave that opposite view there.

StephenHendry

Deleted User wrote: »

Few different factors, the initial exposure of Hillsborough being one. Dublin/Monaghan bombings along with several other things that happened down here still have families campaigning but the establisgment, the media, and probably the wider public, don't seem to want to deal with the can of worms that could be opened.

There should be a similar inquiry for the stardust victims which is a bit like our hillsborough, where the victims should be given access to all the evidence to get the answers they are looking for just like today where those families finally got some answers

StephenHendry

wonderfullife wrote: »

It's not about Irish tragedies, there have been countless, it's about epic scales of injustice a la Hillsborough in that cover-ups and inquiries and justice were not done. It extends further than the examples i gave; and my only point is that football and football support is a powerful thing that leads people to such emotions on Hillsborough that are not present elsewhere. I am as delighted as anyone else with today, just wish we had similar support and similar days for domestic injustice.

+ 1

ush

wonderfullife wrote: »

It's not about Irish tragedies, there have been countless, it's about epic scales of injustice a la Hillsborough in that cover-ups and inquiries and justice were not done. It extends further than the examples i gave; and my only point is that football and football support is a powerful thing that leads people to such emotions on Hillsborough that are not present elsewhere. I am as delighted as anyone else with today, just wish we had similar support and similar days for domestic injustice.

You know what....I wish we showed solidarity with all people suffering injustice both domestic and foreign. That to me is a beautiful thing.

Personally, despite being a LFC supporter, this is about working-class solidarity. Its not about British or Irish. Domestic or Foreign. This is bigger than football. Its political. But ultimately its about a shared humanity.

I think you're being disingenuous. Please respect the day thats in it.

wonderfullife

K-9 wrote: »

I get your point wonderfullife, Bloody Sunday didn't directly affect me, I was too young, but I do remember Loughgall, Enniskillen, Greysteel, the Shankhill, Omagh etc, they'd have been close to me or I'd have read up on them as I took an interest in Northern politics, for my sins. Shhot to kill would be one I think is terrible.

Really, what people take an interest in, they'll campaign for injustices. You get people from Ireland who are interested in Middle East atrocities, doesn't mean they don't care less about things in Ireland, which is your insinuation if you extend the logic.

Don't think this is the day to be going over this point again and again, so I'll leave that opposite view there.

Yeah my over-arching point is just something along the lines of "football isn't life or death - it's more important than that"! Just an observation of how supporting a football club can be like having a family member - all the highs, lows, support, good times, bad times ,victories, defeats...... so when tragedy and/or injustice befalls your team, irrespective of when it happened it seems to resonate with fans of the club more than other domestic or world tragedies.

But anyway we can all agree justice is a good thing and today has seen a large step towards that.

wonderfullife

ush wrote: »

You know what....I wish we showed solidarity with all people suffering injustice both domestic and foreign. That to me is a beautiful thing.

Personally, despite being a LFC supporter, this is about working-class solidarity. Its not about British or Irish. Domestic or Foreign. This is bigger than football. Its political. But ultimately its about a shared humanity.

I think you're being disingenuous. Please respect the day thats in it.

You really are not getting it at all. Every post in this thread has respected today and i'm making a point that football support is such a powerful thing and wishing that volume of support existed towards domestic causes.

As for working class solidarity what has that got to do with anything? It doesn't matter 1 jot whether the victims of Hillsborough were working-class, middle-class or upper-class, they and their families deserve justice and today has been a big step in that process. Class has nothing to do with what happened that day.

Turtyturd

wonderfullife wrote: »

You really are not getting it at all. Every post in this thread has respected today and i'm making a point that football support is such a powerful thing and wishing that volume of support existed towards domestic causes.

As for working class solidarity what has that got to do with anything? It doesn't matter 1 jot whether the victims of Hillsborough were working-class, middle-class or upper-class, they and their families deserve justice and today has been a big step in that process. Class has nothing to do with what happened that day.

Class has plenty to do with it....as someone said earlier either here or in the LFC thread, would the reaction have been the same if this happened at a Rugby match?...I seriously doubt it.

You are right about the power football has to unite people behind a cause, although it's not just football but any kind of big symbol but you are wrong to say that there is a preference for supporting things like Hillsborough over domestic incidents.

ush

wonderfullife wrote: »

Class has nothing to do with what happened that day.

Class had everything to do with it. How the powers that be treating the working classes, the media coverage protecting those in charge and how the myth lived on that scousers were to blame or were full of self-pity.

But again, you were selective in your choice of domestic causes, while thinking you were making a clever point.

Good day to you, Sir.

YNWA

K-9

Class and politics was very much part of it.

wonderfullife

ush wrote: »

Class had everything to do with it. How the powers that be treating the working classes, the media coverage protecting those in charge and how the myth lived on that scousers were to blame or were full of self-pity.

But again, you were selective in your choice of domestic causes, while thinking you were making a clever point.

Good day to you, Sir.

YNWA

Well that's an intelligent response, "YNWA" whilst completely misreading the points i made. There's no "clever point" when it comes to injustice. The point is how football can unify a support base in a way i don't think can happen with any other sport or non-sport. You can blindly ignore that if you like.

wonderfullife

K-9 wrote: »

Class and politics was very much part of it.

Yes but every class of fan involved in that tragedy deserves justice, this isn't merely a working class thing.

Welease

Vanolder wrote: »

I agree with you. I'm a Liverpool fan and naturally want justice to be done and for the victims/family to be vindicated, as probably most decent footballs do, but I dont see how Irish lads can be moved to tears or in a state of ecstasy over the results of this, as it is very much a Merseyside tragedy. Fellas jumping all over twitter/facebook, or where ever, with justice96 etc just because they support a plc in England is a tad sad, most of them were not even born ffs.

It's a great day for scousers tho after so much hurt, Evertonians included, who have constantly fought along with the Reds for the truth.

I think the issue has and always been much wider than Merseyside, and most intelligent football fans get that (that is not a comment directed at you btw). The issue is how football fans were treated by the authorities..

If a single result had gone a different way, it could have been any other club in the UK in the Leppings Lane end that weekend, and the same tradgedy and coverup could have befallen them. That is why football fans (of all clubs) have had an ongoing interest in the truth, so that it doesn't happen again. That is why in the days afterwards around Anfield many fans from many clubs came and left flowers and their club colours.. I spoke to many fans over the time I lived there and as we travelled to games....they had been caged in at many grounds (and knew as has been seen before and afterwards) that situations like these were guaranteed to happen..

By sheer luck I happened to be away that weekend (back in Dublin) and didnt attend the game, but many mates i know did (luckily most were in the upper tier).

All of it was unnecessary, and it effected all football fans.. everywhere.

Just my 2c...

K-9

wonderfullife wrote: »

Yes but every class of fan involved in that tragedy deserves justice, this isn't merely a working class thing.

Well unless you had some knowledge of Maggie, the Tories, Liverpool and socialism, I'd say you don't have a clue about how important class and politics was.

Obviously every class of fan is important, which is exactly the point, these were treated as insignificant.

You seem to be trying to make some type of point on this thread alright. Maybe take in what others say, read up on it, not just the reports and todays findings. We've recently found out about News International and how Murdock was closely connected to Thatcher, the police leaked stuff to the press and the Sun in particular lapped it up, to further an agenda, that of Liverpool being an underclass.

wonderfullife

K-9 wrote: »

Well unless you had some knowledge of Maggie, the Tories, Liverpool and socialism, I'd say you don't have a clue about how important class and politics was.

Obviously every class of fan is important, which is exactly the point, these were treated as insignificant.

You seem to be trying to make some type of point on this thread alright. Maybe take in what others say, read up on it, not just the reports and todays findings. We've recently found out about News International and how Murdock was closely connected to Thatcher, the police leaked stuff to the press and the Sun in particular lapped it up, to further an agenda, that of Liverpool being an underclass.

Yes but class warfare of the 1980s or any generation is not a new concept and it can be applied to Stardust just as easily. The analogy here is that if Hillsborough had been a rugby match, say Twickenham, then swift and true justice would have prevailed with those accountable brought to justice. That misses part of the point in that the authorities and people in power were going to try protect themselves, irrespective of the class of people involved in the tragedy. The police forces would have done the same to protect themselves. The only difference might have been a stronger political will in pursuit of justice.

As for News International they had nearly every Prime Minister in their pockets this wasn't just a Maggie thing. I'm no more a fan of Thatcher than the next person and the Trade Union movement of the 80s with Scargill et al resonated greatly through the country.

I don't know where the condescending approach is coming from, i'll say it 1 last time, invoking Stardust and Dub-Monaghan was simply a way of highlighting the power of football to connect to its fanbase. How emotive an injustice can become to the fans of the club, whether they lived through the event or not. That's the point i've made consistently. Simple. There's a few chips on shoulders in here apparently but don't aim them at me for making a genuine point.

Handsome Bob

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Is it not that The Sun did not deliberately report lies (which they have appologised for), as has been the accusation over the years; from what I have heard of the report there was a concerted effort from the people who would have been providing information to the press, to mislead the press and therefore the public. The Sun and its reporter(s) were lied to by the Police, close news agency's and a member of parliament, in order to paint a distasteful and disgusting picture of the Liverpool fans and take blame and accusing fingers away from the authorities.

Yes, The Sun reported disgusting things, but things they were told by multiple people they should have been able to report on with confidence - they are a victim of the cover up the police and authorities.

If you take the findings of the report, as horrific as they are, why do you not take it a step further and see that there is a very real possibility that The Sun were caught by the coverup as opposed to being part of it.

EDIT: Do the findings of the report say The Sun were part of the cover up?

The Sun were not the only ones who reported on these allegations, but they were the only ones who went with the de facto headline of "The Truth".

So misled or not, I find it hard to sympathise with them.

mike65

wonderfullife wrote: »

Yes but class warfare of the 1980s or any generation is not a new concept and it can be applied to Stardust just as easily. The analogy here is that if Hillsborough had been a rugby match, say Twickenham, then swift and true justice would have prevailed with those accountable brought to justice. That misses part of the point in that the authorities and people in power were going to try protect themselves, irrespective of the class of people involved in the tragedy. The police forces would have done the same to protect themselves. The only difference might have been a stronger political will in pursuit of justice.

Hey get your own analogy!

wonderfullife

mike65 wrote: »

Hey get your own analogy!

ha!! I just don't agree with the concept that the Police Force of Greater London in 1989 would have just come clean and said "hands up, it was our fault, lock us up because 96 upper-class rugby fans have died". I think it's far more an institutional problem of the day where they would do anything to spin it their way. But everyone is entitled to their view on the subject. It's not the right time or place but could go into a lot of things Thatcher did to improve the lives of people in Liverpool and other cities in the 1980s but that's a politics debate and not one i will be having with a condescending person, mod or not, suggesting i read up on the 1980's

Leave it at that!! Great day today for the families long overdue, hope it brings some relief and contentment.

Handsome Bob

A document disclosed to the Panel has revealed that an attempt was made to impugn the reputations of the deceased by carrying out Police National Computer checks on those with a non-zero alcohol level.

Absolutely sickening.

copacetic

On 6one news now, George Hamilton who was there and and our own? liverpool fan campaigner in studio.

K-9

wonderfullife wrote: »

As for News International they had nearly every Prime Minister in their pockets this wasn't just a Maggie thing. I'm no more a fan of Thatcher than the next person and the Trade Union movement of the 80s with Scargill et al resonated greatly through the country.

I don't know where the condescending approach is coming from, i'll say it 1 last time, invoking Stardust and Dub-Monaghan was simply a way of highlighting the power of football to connect to its fanbase. How emotive an injustice can become to the fans of the club, whether they lived through the event or not. That's the point i've made consistently. Simple. There's a few chips on shoulders in here apparently but don't aim them at me for making a genuine point.

You then went on about class.

Politics was a huge part on it, many Tories despised Liverpool the city, what it stood for, the class and politics, it's written record. News International is hugely important as she was the one who relaxed the rules for them to near dominate media.

I don't have a chip on the shoulder, victims, families and fans have been told to let go of that chip on the shoulder for too long, no more of it. The only person going on about Stardust et al is you, on this monentous day, with some chip on the shoulder ayou have.

wonderfullife

K-9 wrote: »

You then went on about class.

Politics was a huge part on it, many Tories despised Liverpool the city, what it stood for, the class and politics, it's written record. News International is hugely important as she was the one who relaxed the rules for them to near dominate media.

I don't have a chip on the shoulder, victims, families and fans have been told to let go of that chip on the shoulder for too long, no more of it. The only person going on about Stardust et al is you, on this monentous day, with some chip on the shoulder ayou have.

sigh. point was football unifies support in a way that isn't seen in other injustices. The power of football and the bond with its supporters. that's the point and that is absent in other injustice campaigns. The class of fan who died all deserve justice. Implying rich fans would have seen swifter justice in London, for example, is just an opinion you're entitled to.

Yeah sure wasn't Michael Heseltine told to abandon the city in 1981 but he fought for the £100 million injection it needed. It's getting dragged off topic so just agree to disagree, i think you're wrong on certain points and you don't think my points are relevant enough today.

Truth campaign and a lot of hard work bears some fruit today and that is a great thing. A note we can agree on.

Oscorp

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Is it not that The Sun did not deliberately report lies (which they have appologised for), as has been the accusation over the years;

A f*cking sham of an "apology".

Have a read of this deconstruction of their "sincere apology" eight years ago.

Open Letter to The Sun

By Milo Date: 12/7/2004

http://liverpool.rivals.net/default.asp?sid=890&p=2&stid=8352899

It took a lot of skill to paint yourselves, the people of Liverpool and Wayne Rooney and entourage in such a bad light, but you managed to do just that with your apology in your issue June 7th 2004.

There was so much wrong with your apology that you have somehow managed to alienate yourselves further from the people at whom the apology was targeted. Given that your stock in Liverpool was already rock bottom, that is quite an achievement.

What started out as a seemingly sincere and genuine apology ended up as a pathetic, excuse laden, snivelling piece of editorial that used a young boy as a shield and cited an uninvolved party as chief instigator in what you obviously feel is an unwarranted boycott of your paper.

"We cannot believe these protests properly represent the opinions of the majority of men and women in Liverpool", you state. I hate to disappoint you.

"Sadly for some people in the city of Liverpool, forgetting - never mind forgiving - is impossible", you exhorted. Correct on all counts. For if we forget our - sorry, your - mistakes, then what is to stop them being made again?

"We can understand the grief of those who lost loved ones at Hillsborough", you magnanimously concede, adding "but the words of other fans leave us in despair". You have no right to despair. The implication would seem to be that only those people who lost family or friends have any right to feel disgusted. That is simply untrue.

Your words at the time tarnished the memories of the dead. They tarnished the reputations of the survivors. And they tarnished the people of city. Many thousands went to Hillsborough from Liverpool. Many more thousands didn't. And yet their name, as much as anyone else's, were equally sullied by your incorrect report of "The Truth" in 1989. I am one of those people, and you will not stop me voicing my utter contempt for the way you portrayed my city and, by default, myself through lazy journalism.

Not content with refusing me my opinion, you then turn the apology into a sales pitch by informing us that "nearly all Liverpool born celebrities regularly talk to Britain's favourite daily newspaper". Just how crass and insensitive can you be? The people you are addressing are not interested in your celebrity scoops and your sales figures, they are interested in an apology. One which is rapidly becoming another kick in the teeth.

Don't let that stop you, though. By all means, put it down to a vendetta in the local media. Because let's face it, the people of Liverpool are stupid enough to forget the way your paper callously went to print with a factually incorrect story that made us out to be gravediggers.

The Daily Mirror does not need to remind us of the story. We already know. And The Mirror's "crude effort …to make commercial gain" would be no more crude than your increasingly horrible attempt at apologising. If indeed The Mirror was stirring the issue for this purpose. Which it wasn't.

I can understand you hoping "that the people of modern Liverpool, a city of spirit and sophistication, are not taken in". That might have another effect on your already pitiful sales figures in the city. Unfortunately for you, the people of Liverpool are not taken in by anybody about Hillsborough. We know what happened, and we know who said what.

And it will take more than signing Wayne Rooney up to sell his story to change our opinions. Do you think we are stupid? Obviously. Paul Stretford isn't though, is he? Wayne Rooney's agent moved swiftly to distance himself and his client from your apology and issued a statement claiming that it was made without his knowledge or approval.

To the cynical eye, it might appear that you've used Wayne Rooney to make commercial gain in a city that in lost circulation alone has cost you £55m. But of course, crude efforts to make commercial gain is the arena in which Trinity Mirror operates, isn't it? Or so you would have us believe. As I said, we are not stupid.

"The Sun of 2004 no more deserves to be hated in Merseyside than Wayne Rooney does". I can forgive Rooney, although he has been naïve in the extreme and his actions do him no favours. The Sun, however has had plenty of opportunity to redress the balance and has simply not done so.

I don't care how many of your staff were around in 1989. The public don't buy your staff, they buy The Sun. If I were to make a mistake in my work, I would be severely reprimanded if I answered a complaint with "well it's not my fault, it's a different department". If you work for The Sun, or indeed any company, then you carry its baggage.

And now that you know the severity of feeling and deep seated resentment that the people of Liverpool feel towards your paper, you simply cannot hold your hands up and say "it was the other guy's fault" and be absolved of blame. The Sun made the mistake. The Sun should apologise. And when I say "apologise" I mean "say sorry", on the front page, in letters as big as those that hollered the lies of "The Truth" to all and sundry in April 1989.

Burying it on page 8 and running a front page headline purporting to hate mobs hounding Wayne Rooney curries sympathy from those less informed, however. What a horrid bunch we scousers must be.

And then, just as it seems you can go no lower, you deliver the lowest of blows. "It is time to move on", you claim.

How dare you?

The people of Liverpool will decide when it is time to move on. No-one will tell them when it is time to move on. Do not presume to tell people when to stop feeling angry and above all, do not tell them when they should stop grieving. You are the last people to be afforded that right.

And so, I throw you a challenge. Print this letter, unedited and in its entirety, and answer my points as I have yours. Apologise unreservedly to the people of Liverpool - some of whom will be reading this on one of the many websites you could have lifted your quotes from when citing the "Hate Mob" that are purportedly haranguing Wayne Rooney - on the front page of your paper. Do not use it as a sales exercise. Do not use it as opportunity to lay blame. Simply apologise, cut your losses and walk away, and then we can all "move on", as you so tritely put it.

"Fifteen years is a long time", you rightly point out. I know. It didn't have to be that long, though. That was down to you. And we're still waiting.

K-9

wonderfullife wrote: »

sigh. point was football unifies support in a way that isn't seen in other injustices. The power of football and the bond with its supporters. that's the point and that is absent in other injustice campaigns.

You've made the point several times, no need to repeat it.

The class of fan who died all deserve justice.

Controversial opinion there lad!

Implying rich fans would have seen swifter justice in London, for example, is just an opinion you're entitled to.

Yep, with decent evidence.

Yeah sure wasn't Michael Heseltine told to abandon the city in 1981 but he fought for the £100 million injection it needed. It's getting dragged off topic so just agree to disagree, i think you're wrong on certain points and you don't think my points are relevant enough today.

Isn't that the point, Heseltine a decentskin had to fight hard for it? Events after 81 made more hard line Tories even more exasperated.

Truth campaign and a lot of hard work bears some fruit today and that is a great thing. A note we can agree on.

Agreed.

Jelle1880

Handsome Bob wrote: »

Absolutely sickening.

That's ****ing disgusting.

Should be tomorrows headline..