Dublin Bus getting ticket machines (finally!)

munchkin_utd

you know the feeling, the bus is late and there's a queue of people in front of you waiting for the bus with many rattling change in their hands ready to PAY THE DRIVER.
You'd all buy a ticket in advance with that change if you could, but you can't, Dublin Bus don't do ticket machines. You just wait at the stop ticketless, and even more waiting then getting on the bus as others are busy buying tickets (and figuring out if they have the change/ know where they are going).

Aside from any personal annoyance, if you add up all those 5 min delays on every bus all day, every day of the year, you end up with literally weeks of bus time spent standing around - and the more standing around there is then the more busses are needed to provide the service, and more drivers and more maintenance and more cost overall.

Anyhow, the logic of selling tickets to masses of people hanging around at main bus stops and speed up the boarding and times of busses now has seeped into the conciousness of Dublin Bus management.
Today they are asking the ticket machine manufacturers of the world to come with their magnificent devices and make them an offer!
http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=SEP384915

It is ironic that as the leap card is coming into use, Dublin bus is bringing in a means of easily buying a ticket at the bus stop that would eliminate all the färting about at bus stops (particularily the main ones where machines could be justified at) that the leap card was supposed to eliminate.

I just wonder will the specification have an anti junkie feature to stop them begging you for your change like happens at luas stops ?

noelfirl

2.4 Total quantity or scope of tender

Initially, 6 Machines will be considered. This may increase.

I wouldn't get too ecstatic. It could be just more for the airport, or some for Heuston or Connolly.

munchkin_utd

noelfirl wrote: »

I wouldn't get too ecstatic. It could be just more for the airport, or some for Heuston or Connolly.

well, in one sense they are better to order in small numbers to see if it does the job properly first before rolling out on a wider scale.
Even just to get the software glitches rolled out at the beginning in a managable way.

Well, I hope thats what they are at.

coylemj

I hope they are intelligent machines which can dispense the correct ticket based on the destination.

A lot of passengers who pay cash tend not to know the correct fare because they're infrequent users of DB buses. That type of passenger will only use a machine if they can select their destination from a menu. Otherwise they will wait for the bus to arrive and tell the driver where they're going, thereby rendering the machine useless.

I can't see DB rolling out machines everywhere for cost reasons - maybe a machine or two on the island in the middle of O'Connell St., one near the Molly Malone statue at the bottom of Grafton St. for the Nassau St. stops and outside UCD....

bk

I'd guess these are TVM's similar to the DART and Luas TVMs and will primarily be for selling and topping up Leap cards and other Dublin Bus T90, Rambler style tickets at busy locations like Dublin Airport, Dublin Bus HQ, etc.

I don't they will sell standard tickets the way people are suggesting above.

At least I hope so.

dublinbusdude

noelfirl wrote: »

I wouldn't get too ecstatic. It could be just more for the airport, or some for Heuston or Connolly.

Does Dublin Bus have these in Dublin Airport already?

munchkin_utd wrote: »

well, in one sense they are better to order in small numbers to see if it does the job properly first before rolling out on a wider scale.
Even just to get the software glitches rolled out at the beginning in a managable way.

Well, I hope thats what they are at.

Lets see

bk

dublinbusdude wrote: »

Does Dublin Bus have these in Dublin Airport already?

They have one machine at the DB bus stops at Dublin Airport, it vends a unique and probably best ticket in the whole of Dublin, a single T90.

etchyed

http://www.londonreconnections.com/2012/tfl-looking-to-phase-out-road-side-ticket-machines/

starviewadams

Good idea for busy City Centre areas around College Green/O'Connell Street/Grafton Street etc.

CelticRambler

munchkin_utd wrote: »

if you add up all those 5 min delays on every bus all day, every day of the year, you end up with literally weeks of bus time spent standing around

Yeahhhh - that was the first obvious effect of getting rid of the conductor: longer journeys on the same route. But I did all right out of it - I wrote a sarcastic letter to some RTE programme at the time and earned a set of saucepans as a prize. Still have them to this day!

Losty Dublin

Let's hope that they aren't broken just like the last time Dublin Bus had them up.

munchkin_utd wrote: »

you know the feeling, the bus is late and there's a queue of people in front of you waiting for the bus with many rattling change in their hands ready to PAY THE DRIVER.
You'd all buy a ticket in advance with that change if you could, but you can't, Dublin Bus don't do ticket machines. You just wait at the stop ticketless, and even more waiting then getting on the bus as others are busy buying tickets (and figuring out if they have the change/ know where they are going).

Aside from any personal annoyance, if you add up all those 5 min delays on every bus all day, every day of the year, you end up with literally weeks of bus time spent standing around - and the more standing around there is then the more busses are needed to provide the service, and more drivers and more maintenance and more cost overall.

Anyhow, the logic of selling tickets to masses of people hanging around at main bus stops and speed up the boarding and times of busses now has seeped into the conciousness of Dublin Bus management.
Today they are asking the ticket machine manufacturers of the world to come with their magnificent devices and make them an offer!
http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=SEP384915

It is ironic that as the leap card is coming into use, Dublin bus is bringing in a means of easily buying a ticket at the bus stop that would eliminate all the färting about at bus stops (particularily the main ones where machines could be justified at) that the leap card was supposed to eliminate.

I just wonder will the specification have an anti junkie feature to stop them begging you for your change like happens at luas stops ?

bk

etchyed wrote: »

http://www.londonreconnections.com/2012/tfl-looking-to-phase-out-road-side-ticket-machines/

Only relevant depending on what type of ticket machines these are.

If the goal is to sell and top-up leap cards, then this is a very welcome development that I have called for since the launch of the leap card.

If it is to sell single tickets like in London, then it is a retrograde step (they need to be moving to cashless operation with leap and pre-paid cards like in London).

Given the small number of machines, I'd guess it is the former.

I expect they are for Dublin Airport and the DB office. I'd like them to also have some on street machines, in particular along the north - south corridor along O'Connell St, Westmoreland St, College Green, Georges St/Dame St.

The East - West corridor is already well covered by Luas and DART TVM's that sell and top-up leap cards.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

I expect they are for Dublin Airport and the DB office. I'd like them to also have some on street machines, in particular along the north - south corridor along O'Connell St, Westmoreland St, College Green, Georges St/Dame St.

The East - West corridor is already well covered by Luas and DART TVM's that sell and top-up leap cards.

Only slightly OT,but it's worth pointing out that the plinth for one of the original Almex Automatic TVM's installed in the 1980's still remains beside Stop No.325 on Aston Quay.

Bit of living history....;)

munchkin_utd

AlekSmart wrote: »

Only slightly OT,but it's worth pointing out that the plinth for one of the original Almex Automatic TVM's installed in the 1980's still remains beside Stop No.325 on Aston Quay.

Bit of living history....;)

just for the record, was this a one off trial of a machine or was there a bigger system of machines in the city centre?
And any idea of why it (/they?) ended up abandoned?

LXFlyer

The Nitelink ticket machines in the city centre all (and I do mean all) got vandalised to destruction.

foggy_lad

munchkin_utd wrote: »

just for the record, was this a one off trial of a machine or was there a bigger system of machines in the city centre?
And any idea of why it (/they?) ended up abandoned?

I don't know if there were many of these machines but i would have thought being vandalised and hurled into the Liffey was the reason for their demise?

LeftBlank

foggy_lad wrote: »

I don't know if there were many of these machines but i would have thought being vandalised and hurled into the Liffey was the reason for their demise?

Just like the Dublin Bikes, eh?

foggy_lad

LeftBlank wrote: »

foggy_lad wrote: »

I don't know if there were many of these machines but i would have thought being vandalised and hurled into the Liffey was the reason for their demise?

Just like the Dublin Bikes, eh?

The bikes are dodging well so far, remember that Dublin was a different place at the time those early ticket machines appeared and vandalism was a lot more widespread or it was just easier to commit acts of vandalism than it is today when everything has been vandalproofed at great expense.

the groutch

Imo it will only work if they start making some of the buses at peak times completely cashless, eg. from 7-9am and then again from 5-7pm have every 2nd 46a & 145 as cashless

munchkin_utd

the groutch wrote: »

Imo it will only work if they start making some of the buses at peak times completely cashless, eg. from 7-9am and then again from 5-7pm have every 2nd 46a & 145 as cashless

ach, people would cop on to smart cards and prepay pretty sharpish if you penalised them PROPERLY for using cash. Double the fare at least. If not tripple.
Noting that as an occasional visitor to Dublin I'd end up paying this penalty in case thats not clear! But till its worth my while getting a leap card, I just wont bother. And neither will anyone else, as it has already proved.

I cant fathom what the resistance is to penalising properly the use of cash.
Pensioners ALL get free travel cards so that "vunerable" section of society that aparantly are stuck in the stone age unable to figure out how to tie their shoe laces arent going to be put out by bringing in fangled smart cards as the primary affordable option.
The unemployed in general have their rent/ medical costs paid and get the guts of 200 cash in hand so laying a tenner of that in a prepay card every other week isnt going to kill them (noting that some are not on the gravy train but that is often folks with kids/ mortgage/ car and they have other worries )

tourists will end up paying over the odds if travelling with cash but so what? Its the same for all visitors to London and nobody thinks it a major problem.

ardmacha

The Nitelink ticket machines in the city centre all (and I do mean all) got vandalised to destruction.

Perhaps. But the city is full of parking meters that do OK in general.
Perhaps these could be programmed to print a unique bar code to act as a bus ticket?

starviewadams

munchkin_utd wrote: »

ach, people would cop on to smart cards and prepay pretty sharpish if you penalised them PROPERLY for using cash. Double the fare at least. If not tripple.
Noting that as an occasional visitor to Dublin I'd end up paying this penalty in case thats not clear! But till its worth my while getting a leap card, I just wont bother. And neither will anyone else, as it has already proved.

I cant fathom what the resistance is to penalising properly the use of cash.
Pensioners ALL get free travel cards so that "vunerable" section of society that aparantly are stuck in the stone age unable to figure out how to tie their shoe laces arent going to be put out by bringing in fangled smart cards as the primary affordable option.
The unemployed in general have their rent/ medical costs paid and get the guts of 200 cash in hand so laying a tenner of that in a prepay card every other week isnt going to kill them (noting that some are not on the gravy train but that is often folks with kids/ mortgage/ car and they have other worries )

tourists will end up paying over the odds if travelling with cash but so what? Its the same for all visitors to London and nobody thinks it a major problem.

Know plenty of unemployed folks that get neither rent supplement or are entitled to medical cards,but keep up with the generalisations anyway sure.

the groutch

ardmacha wrote: »

Perhaps. But the city is full of parking meters that do OK in general.
Perhaps these could be programmed to print a unique bar code to act as a bus ticket?

yeah, it'd have to be something readable by the smartcard scanner to offer any decent time savings.

AlekSmart

ardmacha wrote: »

Perhaps. But the city is full of parking meters that do OK in general.
/QUOTE]

Well...yes n'no....Dublin Corporations coin op parking meters suffered a significant degree of vandalization also,with several teams on constant fix em up duty.

The CIE vending machines were ALMEX units and in the aftermath of the initial attacks CIE contacted ALMEX for a more robust replacement.

The response from ALMEX was to the effect that the Dublin model was the vandal resistant unit supplied to the more colourful cities in the UK and no higher degree was available.

From memory there were 4 units in and around the Nitelink Triangle of College Green/Westmoreland St/D'olier St.

Whilst none ended up in the Liffey,they suffered a litany of abuse which was worsened by the inability of the savages to actually get any money out of them.

Jamming the coin slot with sticks,cardboard and the then new "Superglue" was the preferred method of attack.

There were also some cases of faeces being smeared over the fascias and coin-slots.

The actual straw on the camels back was the use of a significant amount of petrol to burn-out the machine at the College Wall,which entailed a high degree of application given that the nearest petrol station was some distance away on Tara-Street.

However that was Then,this is Now,so modern vending technology has advanced enough to allow Dublin Bus to make full use of it.....has'nt it....?

Solair

AlekSmart wrote: »

ardmacha wrote: »

Perhaps. But the city is full of parking meters that do OK in general.
/QUOTE]

Well...yes n'no....Dublin Corporations coin op parking meters suffered a significant degree of vandalization also,with several teams on constant fix em up duty.

The CIE vending machines were ALMEX units and in the aftermath of the initial attacks CIE contacted ALMEX for a more robust replacement.

The response from ALMEX was to the effect that the Dublin model was the vandal resistant unit supplied to the more colourful cities in the UK and no higher degree was available.

From memory there were 4 units in and around the Nitelink Triangle of College Green/Westmoreland St/D'olier St.

Whilst none ended up in the Liffey,they suffered a litany of abuse which was worsened by the inability of the savages to actually get any money out of them.

Jamming the coin slot with sticks,cardboard and the then new "Superglue" was the preferred method of attack.

There were also some cases of faeces being smeared over the fascias and coin-slots.

The actual straw on the camels back was the use of a significant amount of petrol to burn-out the machine at the College Wall,which entailed a high degree of application given that the nearest petrol station was some distance away on Tara-Street.

However that was Then,this is Now,so modern vending technology has advanced enough to allow Dublin Bus to make full use of it.....has'nt it....?

Odd how the Luas machines survive unscathed, atms, parking meters even most of the few remaining payphones are ok.

I don't know why CIE would have had major issues... Poor location? Bad design? Zero maintenence?

They survive reasonably well in Brussels (here at the moment) too, a city where vandalism is drastically worse than Dublin!

You should see the state of the pedestrian tunnel at central station! Mind boggling level of destruction! Urine stench, graffiti and all the fancy overhead lights smashed to bits! There were actually smashed fluorescent tubes dangling from the ceiling!!!

Dublin has minimal issues in comparison!

AlekSmart

Solair wrote: »

AlekSmart wrote: »

Odd how the Luas machines survive unscathed, atms, parking meters even most of the few remaining payphones are ok.

I don't know why CIE would have had major issues... Poor location? Bad design? Zero maintenence?

They survive reasonably well in Brussels (here at the moment) too, a city where vandalism is drastically worse than Dublin!

You should see the state of the pedestrian tunnel at central station! Mind boggling level of destruction! Urine stench, graffiti and all the fancy overhead lights smashed to bits! There were actually smashed fluorescent tubes dangling from the ceiling!!!

Dublin has minimal issues in comparison!

Not odd at all.

The ALMEX machines were small stand alone units on a metal plinth.

The Luas machines in particular are far larger and exist on a defined CCTV ,monitored platform.

The Luas machines are supplied and maintained by Sheidt & Bachmann,the manufacturers as part of the greater contract.

I'm not aware that a breakdown of that maintenance cost is available.

The old CIE machines did not survive long enough for Maintainance to become an issue,as the vandalism began almost as soon as they were operational.

That is bad news about Brusssels though.

bk

AlekSmart wrote: »

The Luas machines in particular are far larger and exist on a defined CCTV ,monitored platform.

Which is the model I'd like to see DB follow. Well lit and CCTV monitored and sheltered Luas style TVM's at key locations.

Ironically I don't think they will be vandalised at all as they will be closely "monitored" by those beggars that you get around the Luas machines and who "assist" tourists.

I'm actually serious, these guys make a lot of money doing this and they won't want the machines out of order or damaged. They will probably beat the crap out of anyone who tries to vandalise them.

Also I think the vandalism problem has radically changed in Ireland. As we have seen with Dublin Bikes and general lack of vandalism on Dublin Bus, Luas, etc., it seems that are scumbag element just aren't interested in mindless vandalism any more.

I guess they are just too busy making money on their deals.

Solair

To avoid problems you need :

1) Good location of machines i.e. in bright, visible locations on the kerb side, not in the shadow of a bus shelter or something.

Simply putting a street light on top of the machine is probably enough to deter most people as they'll be clearly visible on the street.

2) Seriously secure cash boxes and regular collection of their contents. You cannot have a situation where a TVM has thousands of Euro in it due to haphazard or inefficient collection.

3) Make use of the location of Garda / City Council CCTV systems and ensure that the TVMs are installed in full view of them and place warnings that the system is covered by CCTV and a tamper-proof alarm system that will alert the Gardaí.

Eircom payphones don't get vandalised as much anymore as they probably have no cash in them as nobody uses them these days.

However, the parking meters seem to survive extremely well all things considered and they are not particularly large or different from a bus TVM which would make me wonder if the original TVM installations were done to best practice.

Vandalism like this is far from unique to Dublin and happens in urban areas all over Europe. In fact, I would actually say in Dublin has fewer issues than a lot of places in terms of vandalism and graffiti

I would also add that ensuring good location and CCTV coverage is essential to avoid fraud-related crimes too i.e. card skimming. Assuming, like most machines, they take cards, there is always the risk that someone could install a skimming device. This means that the machines need to be checked regularly (more than daily) by someone walking around and they need to be located in such a way that they are not hidden from view.

Also, I would hope that CIE and the RPA might consider rolling out contactless payment technology on their machines. Millions of Irish debit cards are being issued by all the major banks with Visa Debit Contactless payment capabilities. It's an ideal opportunity to roll out the technology and it also means that cards don't have to be inserted into the TVM thus avoiding a lot of skimming problems.

Contactless payments can be accepted for transactions of up to €15 in value, which is ideal for tickets.

You can use the card 4 consecutive times with the contactless method, and if it has not been used with chip and pin in the interim, the card will request a PIN.

So, it limits the exposure to fraud quite effectively and it's a hell of a lot faster too.

They could even start accepting Visa Debit on board busses quite easily with a bit of an intelligent software upgrade for the Leap Card readers. I am sure a solution is available off-the-shelf at this stage.

In fact, it should be possible to just load a RPA Leap Card App directly onto a Bank of Ireland, AIB, Ulster Bank, PTSB etc debit card or, into a mobile phone with NFC technology built in.

Given that Ireland's supposedly selling itself as "the Silicon Republic" and all that, you'd think we would be bleeding-edge on these kinds of payment technologies.

I'd also wonder if the Government could perhaps give some local payment companies a chance to trial technologies on the public transport network?? It would be a really good idea as it would provide a test bed for our own local payment solutions providers (of which we have a good few) to test and develop innovations.

devnull

In the UK, in train stations where there are vandalism problems on TVM's they just make them card payment only.

Solair

devnull wrote: »

In the UK, in train stations where there are vandalism problems on TVM's they just make them card payment only.

Yeah, that is one approach and as long as they accept all major cards, it's a non-issue.

I know in Nantes in France, the majority of TVMs only accept cards at remote stops for exactly this reason

We seem to have this obsession with cash payments when the statistics in Ireland would support that most people have a debit card. There were 2.7 million Laser Cards (and that does not include Visa Debit branded cards from PTSB, Ulster Bank or the early stages of the BOI Rollout) in 2011.

Anyone with a current account has a debit card available to them. Also, anyone who doesn't have a bank account has pre-pay card options available to them like O2 Money etc etc.

In fact, you can get your kids a debit card on a current account or you can even get them a prepaid card to put their pocket money on. So, really there's no argument against this anymore.

The argument that cards impose a charge on the company is also kind of ridiculous. Cash costs a lot of money to handle too. Banks charge fees to handle coins, security costs are very high and you have to physically send someone out to collect cash boxes at remote locations all over the place.

I seriously think a lot of Irish retailers forget about all that stuff when they compare cash to cards. If you consider the costs involved in security, cash fees, and just the time involved, it starts to make less and less sense to favour cash over cards unless you're committing tax fraud or something and want no paper trail!

Also, communications costs are irrelevant. You can process cards using a standard UMTS (3G) or GSM connection in a couple of seconds. Physical phone lines / data lines aren't required and Data's encrypted to industry norms and there are no issues.